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Hockenson in a trade back

Jetster

By Jetster
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Jetsfan80

Jetsfan80

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

If we are sitting at 15 and the options are two equally graded players, one being a LT and one being a TE, you take the LT every time. But what if you have Hockenson versus 2 or 3 LTs that has a 2nd round grades? That is where it gets tricky. 

Remember, in this scenario we are trading back and likely have a 2nd and 3 3rd round picks. We can take a flier on a couple of lineman in those and/or later rounds. 

The comment I was responding to was in regards to the free agency market.  I don't see a significant LT upgrade hitting the market; that is exceedingly rare in any offseason.  Guard, however, seems to offer some good options.  Center as well. 

I don't think there's a franchise LT in this draft class either, but taking a shot on one in the middle part of Round 1, and shifting him to RT if it doesn't work out, would be fine by me.  But it would require probably TWO trade-downs from 3 to make that a worthwhile option. 

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derp

derp

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22 minutes ago, Paradis said:

A TE thread and no one tagged me. Huh. 

Not that anyone listens to me - but I hear you guys talk about “no brainer” and “pairing up with Herndon” and “12 personnel” packages... I feel like this should be obvious to most of you, but you’re talking about pairing up two Ys... you need a Y and an F tight end. It’s the other Iowa TE, Noah Fant you want. Herndon’s already establshed himself as the Y dating back to playing with Njoku. Fant played the F alongside Hockenson at Y. 

You’re welcome. 

Bill O’Brien recently described how he looks at TE’s as Y’s, F’s, and U’s, with U’s being the more versatile guys who can do both. In this case I think both Hockenson and Herndon are athletic enough and good enough receivers to be U’s in that system. Neither one is Eric Tomlinson. Both can move. They just happen to be able to block but I don’t think that means they can’t play together.

And I think having two guys who can block and make plays in the passing game is better than having one versatile guy and one who’s just a jumbo receiver. Depends if it’s your main package or not obviously but it’s not like the Jets are going to have a ton of offensive skill guys who need to get on the field.

Also think Hockenson and Herndon played the Y role because there Fant and Njoku were more limited in their blocking ability. And I think Miami opened Herndon up more after Njoku left.

Could be dead wrong but that was my thought process.

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#27TheDominator

#27TheDominator

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14 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I have a lengthy post earlier in the thread giving my thoughts, but yes.  I do see Hockenson more in the Witten mold.

I don't know about the Njoku comparison for Fant.  Maybe in how they are used?  Fant should blow Njoku's combine numbers out of the water.  Fant reminds me of Jimmie Graham.  Njoku reminds me of Vernon Davis.  

Isn't it strange to say that Fant will blow Njoku's combine numbers out of thje water, but then to compare Njoku to Vernon Davis?  Isn't Vernon Davis one of the all time combine warriors?

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HawkeyeJet

HawkeyeJet

Posted
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Just now, #27TheDominator said:

Isn't it strange to say that Fant will blow Njoku's combine numbers out of thje water, but then to compare Njoku to Vernon Davis?  Isn't Vernon Davis one of the all time combine warriors?

I meant more in body type.  Fant is long and lean and fluid.  Njoku and David are more "built" and less fluid, in my opinion.

When I watch Fant move around the football field, he reminds me of Graham more than anyone.

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nycdan

nycdan

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18 minutes ago, derp said:

Bill O’Brien recently described how he looks at TE’s as Y’s, F’s, and U’s, with U’s being the more versatile guys who can do both. In this case I think both Hockenson and Herndon are athletic enough and good enough receivers to be U’s in that system. Neither one is Eric Tomlinson. Both can move. They just happen to be able to block but I don’t think that means they can’t play together.

And I think having two guys who can block and make plays in the passing game is better than having one versatile guy and one who’s just a jumbo receiver. Depends if it’s your main package or not obviously but it’s not like the Jets are going to have a ton of offensive skill guys who need to get on the field.

Also think Hockenson and Herndon played the Y role because there Fant and Njoku were more limited in their blocking ability. And I think Miami opened Herndon up more after Njoku left.

Could be dead wrong but that was my thought process.

Well if we draft a TE in the 1st, we'll be hearing a lot of FUs.  I don't think they'll be talking about the prospective system, though.

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Paradis

Paradis

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53 minutes ago, derp said:

Bill O’Brien recently described how he looks at TE’s as Y’s, F’s, and U’s, with U’s being the more versatile guys who can do both. In this case I think both Hockenson and Herndon are athletic enough and good enough receivers to be U’s in that system. Neither one is Eric Tomlinson. Both can move. They just happen to be able to block but I don’t think that means they can’t play together.

And I think having two guys who can block and make plays in the passing game is better than having one versatile guy and one who’s just a jumbo receiver. Depends if it’s your main package or not obviously but it’s not like the Jets are going to have a ton of offensive skill guys who need to get on the field.

Also think Hockenson and Herndon played the Y role because there Fant and Njoku were more limited in their blocking ability. And I think Miami opened Herndon up more after Njoku left.

Could be dead wrong but that was my thought process.

I wouldn’t say you’re dead wrong. Probably a lot of truth to it... but you’re talking about “making due” vs drafting the right pieces. We could probably “make due” with asking Herndon to play F, but no ones going to mistake him for a true F like Engram or Hernandez. Or even Graham. 

Having a diverse group of TEs gives you a ton of flexibility. I would love to see the Jets run a 12 regularly but would prefer not making due with pushing Herndon into that role. If we trade back, I’d sooner use that 2nd rnd pick on Noah Fant, and the 1st on Taylor or Jonah over Hockenson. Our mileage will be better in the former selection IMO 

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Thai Jet

Thai Jet

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5 hours ago, Jetster said:

This guy should be our target now that we have Sam Darnold in the fold. I'm not saying take him at 3, I'm only looking at him in a trade back & here's my reasoning.

We should fix 2 things instantly in free agency, the Oline & pass rush. Adam Gase likes balanced offensive football. The Patriots were almost unstoppable when they had Gronk & Hernandez. It's not sexy but we need to go from the worst blocking front to one of the best & pairing Hockenson with Herndon could make defending the Jets offense a nightmare! 

Imagine trying to stop an offense with a QB that has TIME that has speed (Anderson), power (Enunwa), a RB that can do it all out of the backfield (Bell), and 2 tight ends with one of them who can run, catch & block like Hockenson, plus Herndon, 3rd & shorts would be a nightmare for defenses when you have QB like Sam who can get the ball out quickly, move right, move left, QB sneak, Gase playbook is WIDE OPEN with an offense like this. THIS IS THE DRAFT to take a TE. This is no Kyle Brady or Becht. If we could trade for Sanu, you could have a BIGS lineup with Sanu, Quincy, Herndon, Hockenson, with Bell in the backfield? Good luck stopping that on 3rd & short!

Free agency...2 pass rushers (no one knows yet who will be available, Saffold & Paradis, we live with Beachum for 1 more year as Hockenson can help him out, Le'veon Bell, and a late round trade to secure a vet on a cap strapped team (Sanu). 

Based on this tradeback & taking Hockenson in the 1st, we will still have a 2nd, 3 thirds, giving us 4 more players in the top 100! 

A Jet fan can dream. 

 

I like it but it all depends on how we do in FA. OL and edge rusher are the priority IMHO. Need to fill those holes 1st.

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PepPep

PepPep

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Not taking him unless the trade back is into somewhere around the twenties, netting us a kings ransom. And that is VERY unlikely.

I'm def. not taking Hockenson in the top 15.  An I believe this trade scenario was published by Trapasso on CBS sports? And it had us moving down to 15 via Washington? 

The prospects that should still be available at 15 are just too good to take Hockenson- IMO. And trust me, I love Hockenson as a balanced/blocking TE. But like I said, in the bottom of the first round, or in the second if he is still around. 

Even in Trapasso's mock, here are the guys still on the board at 15:

 Dalton Risner, OT, Kansas State (can be plugged into the LG spot or maybe even start at C)

A.J. Brown, WR, Ole Miss (potential #1 WR)

Andre Dillard, OT, Washington State (potential long term fix at LT, at the very least can play RT is Shell does not bounce back from injury)

Brian Burns, EDGE, Florida State (Edge Rusher, need I say more)

Kelvin Harmon, WR, NC State (potential #1 WR)

Rashan Gary, DT/EDGE, Michigan (4-3 DE)

Greg Little, OT, Ole Miss

Byron Murphy, CB, Washington

I would probably take any one of those guys ahead of Hockenson. FA signing don't always work out. And you really do not know who the Jets will end up with. It's easy to say- I'll just assume they take care of O-line and Pass Rush in FA, doesn't always work out that way. 

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Jetster

Jetster

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Just now, Thai Jet said:

I like it but it all depends on how we do in FA. OL and edge rusher are the priority IMHO. Need to fill those holes 1st.

Completely agree. 

Point is IF, and that's a big IF, we can trade back, wouldn't a TE like Hockenson make defending Darnold & the Jets that much tougher? The Patriots knew EXACTLY run or pass just based on personel. Having 2 very good TEs allows us to run or pass with success from the same sets. One of the reasons scouts loved Darnold was also his aptitude & his ability to see & understand things quickly.

Nothing is more frustrating to a defense than catching them with personel on the field that does not match with the offense. How many teams have LBs or Safeties good enough to shut down 1 very good TE, let alone 2? Plus you add 2 WRs like Quincy & say Sanu, 2 big strong WRs that can block & catch, your BOUND to have a big guy on a shrimp CB somewhere. Defense tries to go big to stop the run & Darnold goes to the air, challenging slow LBs with the TE. Defense tries to double a TE, or play back, Sam hands it off to the RB (Bell?). 

I don't think people realize just how much this offense can be improved with just a few moves like 2 free agent lineman, a stud RB (Bell), a draft pick like Hockenson & a simple trade for a guy like Sanu. 

All of sudden, you've a CB with a guy like Robbie Anderson that will get NO HELP,  will have to hold a corner of the field to keep a guy like Bell getting outside, or have to make a tackle on big boys like Herndon & Hockenson coming there way from underneath routes! Kind of what it ALWAYS looks like when Brady gets the ball to Gronk against us. Gronk plays inside we crowd the line, he gets off 1st down. We back off he blocks down, 5 to 8 easy yards on the ground. 

Build an offense that can do it all with the same personel. Most defenses SUCK in the NFL now. LETS DICTATE ON OFFENSE FOR A CHANGE!

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derp

derp

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14 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I wouldn’t say you’re dead wrong. Probably a lot of truth to it... but you’re talking about “making due” vs drafting the right pieces. We could probably “make due” with asking Herndon to play F, but no ones going to mistake him for a true F like Engram or Hernandez. Or even Graham. 

Having a diverse group of TEs gives you a ton of flexibility. I would love to see the Jets run a 12 regularly but would prefer not making due with pushing Herndon into that role. If we trade back, I’d sooner use that 2nd rnd pick on Noah Fant, and the 1st on Taylor or Jonah over Hockenson. Our mileage will be better in the former selection IMO 

It’s funny how two people can look at the same situation and see the same thing pretty much but just have different perspectives. I get where you’re coming from there. To me if you go with Taylor/Williams and Fant you’re getting better scheme fits but you’re taking the weak top of a deep tackle class and a TE who is essentially a glorified WR because he’s not a great blocker. 

I’d rather go with the less by the book scheme fit - Herndon wasn’t a massive investment and I do think he has high end movement skills for a TE - take the elite TE prospect over the best of a weak top of the class tackle, and take advantage with the depth of the tackle class with a Little if he’s available later or a Howard.

Not to say you’re wrong by any means - I totally see where you’re coming from in terms of investing in priority positions, talent allocation - I just think the class does not line up well for an early tackle.

Realistically we probably see a hybrid of the two ideas with an edge early and a tackle and more traditional F TE later. Good class to get one I think. Definitely possible they target Fant too. I’d be surprised with the early tackle though. Maybe if someone with special movement skills emerges but most of the guys I like didn’t play the left side in college and I think that bumps them down.

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