Mark Sanchez Talk - MERGED

[SMC]

If that's your take away from those two games, then there's really no point.

I guess there isnt because I'm trying to figure out on what basis are you claiming that Sanchez played poorly in either game. It cant be TDs, it cant be INTs, it cant be completion percentage, it can't be that he moved the offense.

Tell me what made either performance poor.

[SMC]

I'm guessing you didn't read the board after we lost to the Steelers.....

I did, and all the critical threads were about Schitty's idiotic goalline calls and Rex not having the team ready to start the game.

[ZachEY]

I guess there isnt because I'm trying to figure out on what basis are you claiming that Sanchez played poorly in either game. It cant be TDs, it cant be INTs, it cant be completion percentage, it can't be that he moved the offense.

Tell me what made either performance poor.

 

Mostly that he was under 20 points in both games.  That those TDs in Pittsburgh came when the game was essentially out of reach.  That he fumbled for a TD in that game, which you ignored in your complex statistical analysis.  That he was entirely ineffective in the 1st half of Pittsburgh and in the 2nd half vs. Indy.  If you took his first half against the Colts and his 2nd half of the Steelers (if you pretend that the Steelers didn't let up when up 24-3 and just try to hold on), you MIGHT have a QB performance good enough to win one of those games.

 

You can pull a box score and say Mark wasn't horrendous, but a cursory watching of the games would argue otherwise.  That at absolute best, he played decently for one half of each of the games.  At best.

 

We asked a lot of the D in those years.  They "let us down," but asking them to hold both teams under 20 points is pretty unrealistic, especially when you're not moving the ball for an entire half in both games.

[ZachEY]

I'm guessing you didn't read the board after we lost to the Steelers.....

 

Seriously... The best you heard about Mark after the Steelers game was that 'maybe because it's only his 2nd year, he can improve'.  Most of the criticisms were drowned out by the "team was unprepared" nonsense.

[Bugg]

The people who should be trolled are the ones who always insisted that Sanchez was already and would always be a terrible QB, who are now using a couple decent games under a different coach to condemn the staff here. 

 

No doubt that the Jets handled Sanchez' development poorly, but there's also little doubt that when a junior QB with 16 starts enters the NFL, he's gonna struggle. It's not entirely surprising that a kid who does have some talent is starting to get it together in his sixth year in the league. And even then, he hasn't exactly shown that he's over his tendency to turn the ball over. Really, he's not even at the level of Nick Foles, yet. This new narrative that the Jets somehow gave up on him prematurely is pretty funny, too. The coaching staff screwed up, the front office office screwed up by giving him that ridiculous extension, and Sanchez himself screwed up by coming out early (although, it obviously got him paid). 

 

I always liked the kid, and always thought he might eventually be able to get it together. Be a serviceable game manager, anyway. It's a little premature to say he's there yet, however. He's still throwing interceptions and fumbling the football at roughly the same rate he did with the Jets. 

Guilty. 

 

But the difference is 2 fold-Sanchezs havimg swam this 500 yards of drainpipe filled with poop has probably grown up a bunch.

 

But bigger is he has a coach that only trusts him, asks him to play within himselF and, doesn't scare the daylights out of him about DON'T TURN THE BALL OVER. If you want somebody to fail drill that negative message into them instead of being postive and playing to their strengths. And run plays that play to his ability-rollouts, quick hits to WRs on screens,backs and TEs in the flat, the hurry up and with the backstop of Shady McCoy. If you give defenses time to set by taking the proverbial full playclock like Schitty, you are hurting Sanchez. It's an odd thing but he has always been more effecitve in the hurry up. But that compromised the Jets' CS's ability to call some complicated play from the back of the book.

 

Watched Sanchez with Philly and notice he hasn't wasted a timeout yet nor had some dumb sub ruin a set.

 

The difference is coaching.

[afosomf]

Christ be happy for the dude that he playing well and will make playoffs and that he is free from effen curse

[slats]

Guilty. 

 

But the difference is 2 fold-Sanchezs havimg swam this 500 yards of drainpipe filled with poop has probably grown up a bunch.

 

But bigger is he has a coach that only trusts him, asks him to play within himselF and, doesn't scare the daylights out of him about DON'T TURN THE BALL OVER. If you want somebody to fail drill that negative message into them instead of being postive and playing to their strengths. And run plays that play to his ability-rollouts, quick hits to WRs on screens,backs and TEs in the flat, the hurry up and with the backstop of Shady McCoy. If you give defenses time to set by taking the proverbial full playclock like Schitty, you are hurting Sanchez. It's an odd thing but he has always been more effecitve in the hurry up. But that compromised the Jets' CS's ability to call some complicated play from the back of the book.

 

Watched Sanchez with Philly and notice he hasn't wasted a timeout yet nor had some dumb sub ruin a set.

 

The difference is coaching.

 

Chip Kelly is winning with Andy Reid's team. 

 

The bold is exactly what Bill Parcells did with Vinny Testaverde to positive results. But it's all about the results. I've said many times, and again in the post you quoted, that the Jets screwed up Sanchez's development. Schottenheimer was terrible and Sporano was worse. But him not improving is still a chicken and egg argument, IMHO. It's not shocking that he's producing more in his sixth year in a wide open offense, just as it's not shocking that he's still throwing interceptions at virtually the same rate. 

[Bugg]

Chip Kelly is winning with Andy Reid's team. 

 

The bold is exactly what Bill Parcells did with Vinny Testaverde to positive results. But it's all about the results. I've said many times, and again in the post you quoted, that the Jets screwed up Sanchez's development. Schottenheimer was terrible and Sporano was worse. But him not improving is still a chicken and egg argument, IMHO. It's not shocking that he's producing more in his sixth year in a wide open offense, just as it's not shocking that he's still throwing interceptions at virtually the same rate. 

There's something to be said for not screwing up things that are working. In the immortal words of my late dad, If it's working DON'T F___ WITH IT. LIke Hem Edfwards frocing Vinny Testavered into the WCO. But I digress...

 

But the bold is really important. Ryan views offense as a necessarty evil instead of an opportuniy to succeed. WHich is why he will talk all day about his defense being 4th ranked vs. the run , but won't say much at all about the offense. A head coach has to know and be involved in both sides of the ball. And Rex RYan never has been. The Pettine/Crossers stuff is really chapter and verse on how little Ryan gets involved with the offense.

[Bleedin Green]

This is all true.

Sanchez doesnt look any different to me. This is the 2010 Sanchez with more weapons and better coaching. Im just trolling those who insist that Sanchez has always been awful.

 

Yeah, despite my tendency to argue against the concept of Sanchez's supposed Philly rebirth, I believe the arguments made on both extremes are pretty idiotic.  Even when I was completely done with the guy and wanted him gone, it wasn't because he was never capable of a good game.  Until the very last day I still liked him more than Pennington.  His history with the team and laughably absurd contract were the reasons he needed to go more than anything.  I said even then that he'd have, at minimum, a backup job in the NFL for as long as he wanted it.  That's also why as much as I may disagree with them, I've mostly made a point of not arguing with those who at least have been consistent in their views on Sanchez, like our old pals Smash and Pac.  It's more the crowd who endlessly contradict themselves, on both sides, who need to be mocked for their idiocy (e.g., the "one game doesn't mean anything!!"... after the next game: "did you see that one game?!?" crowd).

[vincenzo69]

I agree with the first part about Kelly but not about the kast part with Sanchez.

Sanchez played under Schitty and Sparano in the least QB-friendly systems the NFL has seen in 20yrs. So to think Sanchez would be buttfumbling under any competent OC is highly suspect.

Sanchez had a couple decent years playing with the league's best O-line, an excellent running game, Braylon Edwards, Jerricho Cotchery, Dustin Keller and Santonio Holmes.  Yeah the playcalling by Schitty was awful and cost us at least one SB appearance but let's not act like 2009-2011 Mark Sanchez was Dan Marino over here.

[joewilly12]

Sanchez had a couple decent years playing with the league's best O-line, an excellent running game, Braylon Edwards, Jerricho Cotchery, Dustin Keller and Santonio Holmes.  Yeah the playcalling by Schitty was awful and cost us at least one SB appearance but let's not act like 2009-2011 Mark Sanchez was Dan Marino over here.

He was the best QB we have had in years here did we quit on him too soon is the question thats haunting me. 

[vincenzo69]

He was the best QB we have had in years here did we quit on him too soon is the question thats haunting me. 

The answer to your question is no.  The problem is our current GM wasn't bright enough to use 12 draft picks and $40 mil in cap room to improve the team.

[lancemehl]

I'm still try to figure out what exactly about this performance should have even slightly changed anyone's previous opinions in either direction.

What did this tell us? Mark Sanchez appears to be an inconsistent performer who has some very good games, and other very bad games... welcome to 2009 everyone.

Please don't do it to yourself, bro. Denial is not healthy. lol

[SMC]

Mostly that he was under 20 points in both games.  That those TDs in Pittsburgh came when the game was essentially out of reach.  That he fumbled for a TD in that game, which you ignored in your complex statistical analysis.  That he was entirely ineffective in the 1st half of Pittsburgh and in the 2nd half vs. Indy.  If you took his first half against the Colts and his 2nd half of the Steelers (if you pretend that the Steelers didn't let up when up 24-3 and just try to hold on), you MIGHT have a QB performance good enough to win one of those games.

 

You can pull a box score and say Mark wasn't horrendous, but a cursory watching of the games would argue otherwise.  That at absolute best, he played decently for one half of each of the games.  At best.

 

We asked a lot of the D in those years.  They "let us down," but asking them to hold both teams under 20 points is pretty unrealistic, especially when you're not moving the ball for an entire half in both games.

What you ignored in the Colts game is that Sanchez gave the Jets a lead, Rex's defense gave up a late TD in the 1st half (which was a precursor to things to come over the next 5 years for a Rex D), then Shaun Greene got hurt early in the second half, Thomas Jones was completely ineffective thereafter and Sanchez could not keep up with Peyton scoring at will against Rex's D.

 

As to the Steelers game, you completely ignored the fact that the Steelers ran all over the Jets to start the game and controlled the time of possession in the first half building a lead.  Then Schitty calls an empty backfield against the best defense in the NFL and DBrick gets turnstiled which leads to the Sanchez sack and fumble.  However, Sanchez brought the team back in the second half.  To claim that his TDs were when the game was "out of reach" is preposterous.  The Jets immediately came back in that game and were in 5 points with a chance to win the game if Rex's D could get the ball back.  Of course, Rex's D failed on the biggest drive of Rex's career and the rest is history.

[Bleedin Green]

Sanchez played well in those two AFCCGs.

Rex's D sh*t the bed in both games

 

This is where you lose me completely.  Sanchez himself is quite literally responsible for the Steelers' margin of victory in that second AFC Championship game.  The Sanchez-led offense scored 17 points and Sanchez handed the Steelers' 7 points all on his own.  The Jets' defense allowed 17 points and scored 2 points of their own for the Jets, while also generating 2 additional turnovers which the Jets' offense failed to score any points off of.  The Colts game can be argued, but the Steelers' game has no reasonable argument to exonerate Sanchez and/or the offense even slightly.  That doesn't mean that the defense doesn't absolutely deserve their share of the blame as well, but no one can honestly say that an offense scoring 10 more points for their own team than they did for the opposition is anything more than a completely garbage performance.

[lancemehl]

On a side note, it's kind of amusing to see how much this thread is a near carbon copy of the Pennington/Dolphins debate circa 2008.

It's actually even a fairly a pretty similar layout of who falls on each side as well, outside of just a few folks who have essentially switched sides and are now ultimately relying on the same arguments they trashed in those days.

Very different.. Pennington was an aging QB whose shoulder was hanging on for dear life, but he had heart, was accurate, good leader, able to win some games (which made him a stud with the Jets)

Jet fans were down on him because he could hardly throw a 10 yard pass. However, he showed some grit early with Miami, and those who were against the Bret Farve experiment, started clamoring when he had success, especially when Farve got injured and he couldnt throw 5 yards.

Sanchez is a 6th overall pick, franchise QB that we sold the farm to draft and build a team around, and after unprecedented success, abruptly pissed on and ran out of town. He is now on the verge on becoming an NFL star. We are going to see his face during every commercial break, every Sunday, for years now.

So, its a little different. lol

[Bleedin Green]

What you ignored in the Colts game is that Sanchez gave the Jets a lead, Rex's defense gave up a late TD in the 1st half (which was a precursor to things to come over the next 5 years for a Rex D), then Shaun Greene got hurt early in the second half, Thomas Jones was completely ineffective thereafter and Sanchez could not keep up with Peyton scoring at will against Rex's D.

 

As to the Steelers game, you completely ignored the fact that the Steelers ran all over the Jets to start the game and controlled the time of possession in the first half building a lead.  Then Schitty calls an empty backfield against the best defense in the NFL and DBrick gets turnstiled which leads to the Sanchez sack and fumble.  However, Sanchez brought the team back in the second half.  To claim that his TDs were when the game was "out of reach" is preposterous.  The Jets immediately came back in that game and were in 5 points with a chance to win the game if Rex's D could get the ball back.  Of course, Rex's D failed on the biggest drive of Rex's career and the rest is history.

 

 

I'd ask you to refer back to your own posts from the ACM era when you try to seriously write things like this.  There's a whole lot of excuses being made for the same one guy in this post of yours.  That should tell you something.

 

Again, I'm not amongst the "Sanchez was the worst QB EVER!" crowd, but he was pure crap in that Steelers game.

[lancemehl]

Sanchez had a couple decent years playing with the league's best O-line, an excellent running game, Braylon Edwards, Jerricho Cotchery, Dustin Keller and Santonio Holmes. Yeah the playcalling by Schitty was awful and cost us at least one SB appearance but let's not act like 2009-2011 Mark Sanchez was Dan Marino over here.

QBs arent usually Dan Marino in their first two years. They dont usually go to back to back AFC championships via four road playoff games either, tho.

[Bleedin Green]

Very different.. Pennington was an aging QB whose shoulder was hanging on for dear life, but he had heart, was accurate, good leader, able to win some games (which made him a stud with the Jets)

Jet fans were down on him because he could hardly throw a 10 yard pass. However, he showed some grit early with Miami, and those who were against the Bret Farve experiment, started clamoring when he had success, especially when Farve got injured and he couldnt throw 5 yards.

Sanchez is a 6th overall pick, franchise QB that we sold the farm to draft and build a team around, and after unprecedented success, abruptly pissed on and ran out of town. He is now on the verge on becoming an NFL star. We are going to see his face during every commercial break, every Sunday, for years now.

So, its a little different. lol

 

The players and circumstances are obviously quite different, but the arguments being made are still nearly identical.  Lots of the same excuses coming from both sides of the argument as those that were used back then.

[lancemehl]

He was the best QB we have had in years here did we quit on him too soon is the question thats haunting me.

And the answer is yes. I'm sorry. It sucks.

[lancemehl]

What you ignored in the Colts game is that Sanchez gave the Jets a lead, Rex's defense gave up a late TD in the 1st half (which was a precursor to things to come over the next 5 years for a Rex D), then Shaun Greene got hurt early in the second half, Thomas Jones was completely ineffective thereafter and Sanchez could not keep up with Peyton scoring at will against Rex's D.

As to the Steelers game, you completely ignored the fact that the Steelers ran all over the Jets to start the game and controlled the time of possession in the first half building a lead. Then Schitty calls an empty backfield against the best defense in the NFL and DBrick gets turnstiled which leads to the Sanchez sack and fumble. However, Sanchez brought the team back in the second half. To claim that his TDs were when the game was "out of reach" is preposterous. The Jets immediately came back in that game and were in 5 points with a chance to win the game if Rex's D could get the ball back. Of course, Rex's D failed on the biggest drive of Rex's career and the rest is history.

Its come to this? Dont forget his fourth quarter comebacks. Dont worry, its all about to unfold. lol It will quickly reach a point where all this is irrelevant.

[SAR I]

I guess AFC championship games don't count as "playoffs?"

Mark Sanchez was the best Jet on the field in both AFC Championship Games.

SAR I

[ZachEY]

What you ignored in the Colts game is that Sanchez gave the Jets a lead, Rex's defense gave up a late TD in the 1st half (which was a precursor to things to come over the next 5 years for a Rex D), then Shaun Greene got hurt early in the second half, Thomas Jones was completely ineffective thereafter and Sanchez could not keep up with Peyton scoring at will against Rex's D.

 

As to the Steelers game, you completely ignored the fact that the Steelers ran all over the Jets to start the game and controlled the time of possession in the first half building a lead.  Then Schitty calls an empty backfield against the best defense in the NFL and DBrick gets turnstiled which leads to the Sanchez sack and fumble.  However, Sanchez brought the team back in the second half.  To claim that his TDs were when the game was "out of reach" is preposterous.  The Jets immediately came back in that game and were in 5 points with a chance to win the game if Rex's D could get the ball back.  Of course, Rex's D failed on the biggest drive of Rex's career and the rest is history.

 

Sanchez did give the Jets a lead.  Unfortunately, against Peyton Manning, you need to do more than get a lead early on.  You have to score, you have to get first downs, you can't just sit back and hope that the best ever does nothing because you're up by 11 with 32 minutes to play.  When you say, "could not keep up with Peyton," I assume that's your way of downplaying, "did nothing."  Because, not only didn't he keep up, but he did nothing.  Nothing at all.  The running game was shut down, you're right.  So, that means it's okay for your QB to do nothing once that happens?  That it's a good performance because, you know, he had a lead with 32 minutes to play?

 

The Steelers did run all over the Jets.  That is a fact.  And yet, despite that fact, the Jets had 5 drives in the first half.  3 of them were 3 and outs, the other two were 7 plays each... 1 was a FG, one was a punt.  While the Steelers did their job controlling the TOP by running successfully, the Jets didn't do their job by going 3 and out on the majority of their drives, and little else on the other two.  Point being, Sanchez and the offense played a huge roll in the TOP issue.  And the Sack/Fumble is now on Schotty and D'Brick?  Because, Sanchez is usually renowned for his ability to protect the football, so it only makes sense it would have to be someone else's fault he fumbled.  And yes, the Jets were in a position to win.  Largely, of course, thanks to Rex's defense in the 2nd half, who pitched a shut-out.  But, needing to stop the other team, then turn around a score a touchdown is not the gimme you're making it out to be.

 

Fact is, you grade Sanchez on a huge curve.  You always have.  As soon as something doesn't go well for the Jets, you throw out the rest.  That's exactly how you've evaluated those games.  An average QB performance and there easily could have been a different outcome.

[ZachEY]

Mark Sanchez was the best Jet on the field in both AFC Championship Games.

SAR I

 

Hardly.

[sg3]

Mark Sanchez was the best Jet on the field in both AFC Championship Games.

SAR I

Only if you eliminate the 27-30 Jets on.the field who were better in each game

But why expect better

[T0mShane]

I see a lot of fear in this thread.

[56mehl56]

Only if you eliminate the 27-30 Jets on.the field who were better in each game

But why expect better

I think you could eliminate the defensive players , so that leaves maybe about a dozen. The D flat out sh*t the bed in those games.

[sg3]

I think you could eliminate the defensive players , so that leaves maybe about a dozen. The D flat out sh*t the bed in those games.

I'll grant that...which makes Butt the 13th best Jet on the field out of 45.

But seriously, we are falling into the trap of a Jet "fan" currently dreamily contemplating sitting next to TX at the Eagle Pat SB in his green and silver #3 replica

[56mehl56]

I'll grant that...which makes Butt the 13th best Jet on the field out of 45.

But seriously, we are falling into the trap of a Jet "fan" currently dreamily contemplating sitting next to TX at the Eagle Pat SB in his green and silver #3 replica

No it sounds like your falling into that trap, some of us are just happy for Sanchez. Furthermore it emphasizes what develoement and a system can do for players, something our current CS know nothing about.

[jgb]

No it sounds like your falling into that trap, some of us are just happy for Sanchez. Furthermore it emphasizes what develoement and a system can do for players, something our current CS know nothing about.

Basically sum it up. Only way a qb succeeds under Rex and his various fail OCs are if he comes pre-developed. Rex should buy all his Christmas fits pre-assembled

[SAR I]

Hardly.

Provide names.

2009: Mark had a blazing first half, staking us to a shocking lead. Defense crumbled second half, cost us a Super Bowl appearance, can't be any of them. Offense the running game collapsed in the second half. So that leaves Mark as the best Jet in the AFC Championship Game.

2010: Defense didn't get off the bus, staked the Steelers to 17 first half points, no one did anything, can't be any of them. Running game went nowhere, the OL let Mark get hit all day including a blindside fumble TD. No WR or TE distinguished himself, Mark Sanchez led a comeback that almost worked like the other 5 he had previously that season. Leaves Mark as the best Jet in the AFC Championship Game.

Provide players that you think performed better.

SAR I

[Matt39]

Funny seeing Belly utilize Revis on WR #2's while rolling coverage to #1's...when Rex thought it'd be a good idea to leave Lito Shepherd alone on an island.

[BigRy56]

Fact is that Sanchez is miles better than what the Jets have at qb right now. The Tannenbaum contract extension handicapped the Jets into having no other option but to cut him. Sure he is in a very quarterback friendly system with great weapons, but maybe that says a lot about Rex's coaching (and I like Rex).

 

Sanchez needed a change of scenery and he got it. His time was over here, that was insanely clear. The Jets made the right move in cutting him but I am not surprised at all to see him playing well. He's a solid quarterback in a great system and he's flourishing. Good for him.

[ZachEY]

Provide names.

2009: Mark had a blazing first half, staking us to a shocking lead. Defense crumbled second half, cost us a Super Bowl appearance, can't be any of them. Offense the running game collapsed in the second half. So that leaves Mark as the best Jet in the AFC Championship Game.

2010: Defense didn't get off the bus, staked the Steelers to 17 first half points, no one did anything, can't be any of them. Running game went nowhere, the OL let Mark get hit all day including a blindside fumble TD. No WR or TE distinguished himself, Mark Sanchez led a comeback that almost worked like the other 5 he had previously that season. Leaves Mark as the best Jet in the AFC Championship Game.

Provide players that you think performed better.

SAR I

So, if the D "no shows" a half, all players are eliminated. But when the QB no shows a half, it's all good?

The easy answer to your question is Revis. If I need to do more, I'll have to go back and look at the games.

[SMC]

So, if the D "no shows" a half, all players are eliminated. But when the QB no shows a half, it's all good?

The easy answer to your question is Revis. If I need to do more, I'll have to go back and look at the games.

Revis played like sh*t in both games. Most blatant in Steeler game when he dropped an interception which wouldve changed the complexity of the game.

Ultimately, it doesnt matter because the narrative is still being written about Sanchez. If he plays well this postseason, no one will believe your take on the AFCCGs.