Poll: Fitz vs Geno

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, Rangers9 said:

As for Geno's apologists who give the same excuses that Mark's fans gave us for years. You know it was the coaching staff's fault, his teammates, etc. Well first of all they rag on Marty as OC. Well the guy is proven good OC but he can't make chicken salad out of CS. And he's currently QB coach of the Ravens a team who doesn't hire fools or incompetents. Also his Qb coach was David Lee, one of the best in the business. So what do you want anyways,. As for Tex, of course he wants us to start Geno. He also wants us to lose all of our games. Thanks for the advice, partner, but no thanks. 

we won with mark when we had talent around him, no excuses were needed unti....we had the worst talent in the league around him and he began to fail. Geno has never had the talent around him that Fitz had last year(and neither has Mark).  I am sure we could have missed the playoffs w/ geno too.

[Rangers9]

10 minutes ago, Mike135 said:

Good clip from NFL Network this morning on Fitz and our QB situation...

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-hq/0ap3000000663116/What-will-it-take-for-Jets-Fitzpatrick-to-come-to-an-agreement

 

Well two out of 3 guys said they needed Fitz and he provides chemistry. Jaime Dukes imo doesn't know what he's talking about when he says does Fitz bring you to the promised land, ie a Super Bowl. You can't say that for sure about any Qb. I mean there are franchise Qbs who are very good who haven't been to a Super Bowl. But if you make the playoffs good things can happen. If you don't make the playoffs you don't get to the promised land. 

[JoeC36]

9 minutes ago, Mike135 said:

Works for me!  I owe ya a pizza.

 

Ya heard it here first, ringing Geno endorsements from @The Crusher and @slats !

Who's up next?

@faba @JoeC36 @Thor99

I'm not sure what's going on, but I vote for Brett Ratliff

[Rangers9]

8 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

we won with mark when we had talent around him, no excuses were needed unti....we had the worst talent in the league around him and he began to fail. Geno has never had the talent around him that Fitz had last year(and neither has Mark).  I am sure we could have missed the playoffs w/ geno too.

There were tons of excuses for Mark by his fans blaming everything but his incompetency. He was along for the ride and the Jets were lucky in 2009 to make the playoffs. He played ok but that's about it. 

[nyjunc]

2 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

There were tons of excuses for Mark by his fans blaming everything but his incompetency. He was along for the ride and the Jets were lucky in 2009 to make the playoffs. He played ok but that's about it. 

you don't win 4 road playoff games and make back to back title games w/ a QB along for the ride.  he was vital to both runs.  the excuses for him come when they let all the talent around him go away and didn't replace them,  No one is winning w/ Chaz Schilens, Stephen Hill and Clyde gates as their main weapons which is just slightly different from Brandon marshall and Eric Decker.

[Colgateman]

2 hours ago, Mike135 said:

Yup, I'm not sure why people are down on Amaro so much.  He was drafted as a receiving TE.  We knew he wasn't the big blocking type.  Granted it did seem like at least once a game he'd have an easy drop (though he then always seemed to make up for it with a great catch later).  Hopefully that's something overcome with experience.  As a rookie he did pretty well.

Like last season we used Enunwa as a big WR who could block well.  I look at Amaro as a notch towards more of a TE than Enunwa, but also just as much of a receiving threat.  He'll be a great weapon if used correctly.  Too fast/mobile for traditional LBs and too big for safeties to cover.

I guess the main concern is health.  Hopefully he can bounce back this year.  If so, the RZ and medium-range passing attack will be insane with Marshall, Decker and Amaro.

Not to keep ranting, but damn if we can get decent play from a QB that has even somewhat of an arm... add Devin n Peake as deep threats (along with Marshall n Deck).  Not to mention Forte/Powell out of the backfield...  $hit we can be lethal if teams have to respect the deep ball.

I don't think most coaches care if a guy can block if he is elite at receiving tbh. Jimmy graham is the perfect example of this

[Mike135]

15 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Well two out of 3 guys said they needed Fitz and he provides chemistry. Jaime Dukes imo doesn't know what he's talking about when he says does Fitz bring you to the promised land, ie a Super Bowl. You can't say that for sure about any Qb. I mean there are franchise Qbs who are very good who haven't been to a Super Bowl. But if you make the playoffs good things can happen. If you don't make the playoffs you don't get to the promised land. 

The great thing to hear in that video was, "this is a SB ready team."  I was shocked to hear that one, and all three agreed.

But to paraphrase Dukes, "Don't get fooled by Fantasy stats.  What do ya do in the moment (week 17 vs Buffalo)?  Failed with a SB caliber team.  Need to make the playoffs before dreaming any higher."

[peebag]

We can miss the playoffs with Geno just as well as we did with Fitz.

[Mike135]

3 minutes ago, Colgateman said:

I don't think most coaches care if a guy can block if he is elite at receiving tbh. 

True.  But having a TE who can catch and block keeps defenses guessing.

[Rangers9]

27 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

you don't win 4 road playoff games and make back to back title games w/ a QB along for the ride.  he was vital to both runs.  the excuses for him come when they let all the talent around him go away and didn't replace them,  No one is winning w/ Chaz Schilens, Stephen Hill and Clyde gates as their main weapons which is just slightly different from Brandon marshall and Eric Decker.

Mark had over 60 starts for the Jets. They wanted him to succeed. There are plenty of bottom rung receivers like Schillens who wasn't that bad (he had an NFL resume) who can make plays. And not every player on your team is going to be elite and then you have to bring in backups when there are injuries. Like our best receiver,Tone who early in 2012 was out for the year.  A Qb is supposed to deal with that crap not sink to a lower level like he did. But you do make a point. If your team can get into the playoffs you have a chance to go a long way. We did it two years in a row, And so there is no way you can predict a SB appearance. Your best shot is to get your foot in the door  and then hope you get hot. Our best chance to make the playoffs is with Fitz. 

[Rangers9]

25 minutes ago, Mike135 said:

The great thing to hear in that video was, "this is a SB ready team."  I was shocked to hear that one, and all three agreed.

But to paraphrase Dukes, "Don't get fooled by Fantasy stats.  What do ya do in the moment (week 17 vs Buffalo)?  Failed with a SB caliber team.  Need to make the playoffs before dreaming any higher."

I don't think we failed. The team won ten games and in a different division we'd have made the playoffs and who knows we could have gotten hot. I don't think you aim for the SB because only one team is the winner and there are a lot of circumstances. And any team can  lay an egg in an important game. And two of those guys said they think that Fitz could lead us to a SB. Nobody said that Geno could even Dukes. 

[Rangers9]

27 minutes ago, Mike135 said:

True.  But having a TE who can catch and block keeps defenses guessing.

I think that Gailey cares. And the Jets went after Gresham a very good blocking TE this off season. 

[jetrider]

3 hours ago, Mike135 said:

Awesome!   I'll take it.  And I agree with much of what you said.  I'm not saying Geno is great and should definitely be our QB for years to come (yet), or even handed the starting job unless earned.

BTW mod votes should count more.

Where ya at @The Crusher?

Yeah, the same foreign exchange rate as their mod rep points which is in Rupiah or something ... 1USRep = 13310 MODRup

My take on Geno is the kid made it all the way to the pros to have his career placed in the hands of Marty Moronweg. A two-year MM nightmare.

Then Fitz comes waltzing in for a joyride with Gailey and a party cake schedule. And chokes.

If we're sticking to the "no stone unturned" credo that would require Geno to get a fair chance with Gailey and Bowles. It's that simple.

Fitz refused Mac's offer. He should take a hike elsewhere. (take a hike ... get it?)

[Mike135]

2 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

I don't think we failed. The team won ten games and in a different division we'd have made the playoffs and who knows we could have gotten hot. I don't think you aim for the SB because only one team is the winner and there are a lot of circumstances. And any team can  lay an egg in an important game. And two of those guys said they think that Fitz could lead us to a SB. Nobody said that Geno could even Dukes. 

We differ there.  With such an easy schedule while getting career years from Marshall and Decker (who aren't getting any younger), we failed week 17.

Say what you will about Sanchez, but he's a guy who raised his game at key points.  Fitz is proving unable to do that.  In fact his 11 year career has proven he can't reach the playoffs.

One of your earlier posts mentioned by not choosing Fitz, that's basically saying you're not optimistic.  Again I disagree.  I'm extremely optimistic about this team.  Just not with Fitz at QB.  It could be argued that by choosing Fitz, you're not optimistic about this team.

Though admittedly I'd still be somewhat optimistic with Fitz under Center.  Just really worried because of Fitz's history.  Mainly the last time he suited up.

A guy who has never made the playoffs (with over a decade of trying) does not give us the best shot of making the playoffs.

[cant wait]

17 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Mark had over 60 starts for the Jets. They wanted him to succeed. There are plenty of bottom rung receivers like Schillens who wasn't that bad (he had an NFL resume) who can make plays. And not every player on your team is going to be elite and then you have to bring in backups when there are injuries. Like our best receiver,Tone who early in 2012 was out for the year.  A Qb is supposed to deal with that crap not sink to a lower level like he did. But you do make a point. If your team can get into the playoffs you have a chance to go a long way. We did it two years in a row, And so there is no way you can predict a SB appearance. Your best shot is to get your foot in the door  and then hope you get hot. Our best chance to make the playoffs is with Fitz. 

I agree with your statement that a QB is supposed to deal with that crap and lift the team up when they need it. So why don't you blame fitz for the meltdown in buffalo again?

[Mike135]

8 minutes ago, jetrider said:

Yeah, the same foreign exchange rate as their mod rep points which is in Rupiah or something ... 1USRep = 13310 MODRup

My take on Geno is the kid made it all the way to the pros to have his career placed in the hands of Marty Moronweg. A two-year MM nightmare.

Then Fitz comes waltzing in for a joyride with Gailey and a party cake schedule. And chokes.

If we're sticking to the "no stone unturned" credo that would require Geno getting a fair chance with Gailey and Bowles. It's that simple.

Fitz refused Mac's offer. He should take a hike elsewhere. (take a hike ... get it?)

Bingo.  I'd be pissed if I was Geno.  Including being really pissed at myself for the whole "chin" thing.

Spent two seasons (when he should've been sitting) in an absolute $hit situation, getting killed by fans and media.  Then things become amazingly better in one offseason and Fitz gets to benefit from it.

The year watching and realizing the missed opportunity hopefully really matured the guy.

[Rangers9]

7 minutes ago, cant wait said:

I agree with your statement that a QB is supposed to deal with that crap and lift the team up when they need it. So why don't you blame fitz for the meltdown in buffalo again?

I do blame him. He didn't have a good game and wasn't clutch. But as Colon has stated the entire team came out flat that day. But what I liked about him was that we were in the game and had a chance to win and steal a game from Rex. Good teams win when they are outplayed. I also don't underestimate the Bills. They talent wise are comparable to the Jets and match up well against us. I think Fitz had a real good year and I'm not going to judge him on one game. 

[CrazyCarl40]

3 hours ago, slats said:

He came back from that benching in 2014 to play in 6 games. His numbers over those six weeks: 134 attempts, 88 completions, 1155 yards, 6 TDs, 3 ints. That works out to a 65.6% comp rate, 4.4% TD rate, 2.2% int rate, 8.6 yards per attempt, and a 98.3 passer rating. Those are good numbers over a six game stretch. In fact, the only number worse than Fitz in his miracle 2015 run is the TD rate, where Fitz wins 5.5 to 4.4. Otherwise? Geno wins the int rate 2.2 to 2.7, comp rate 65.6 to 59.6, passer rating 98.3 to 88, and blows him away in yards per attempt 8.6 to 6.9. 

That was his response to being sat for a few games, with Rex, Marty, and no Marshall. So yeah, I think he can potentially respond very well after sitting a year with Gailey, Marshall, Forte, etc. 

Geno is under contract, Fitz will cost a minimum of $7M to join the team. I just don't think Fitz brings $7M+ value over what Geno can potentially do. Indeed, what Geno has already done over a stretch of time. 

Less than 200 yards a game and 1 TD a week are good numbers? I mean maybe in the days of the AFL. That's putrid in today's game. Geno's interception rate those games was so low because he literally never got to throw the ball. They handed it off two straight weeks if I remember correctly.  

[Rangers9]

Geno two straight years was good in the last four games but way below average the rest of the time. And I'm willing to throw out that Buffalo game. So he's hard to evaluate but I think most observers would say that he doesn't give us our best chance to win in 2016. This is not a try out season for Geno it's the big leagues and the Jets are a team that can compete. I don't go with him unless they don't sign Fitz. 

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, Rangers9 said:

Mark had over 60 starts for the Jets. They wanted him to succeed. There are plenty of bottom rung receivers like Schillens who wasn't that bad (he had an NFL resume) who can make plays. And not every player on your team is going to be elite and then you have to bring in backups when there are injuries. Like our best receiver,Tone who early in 2012 was out for the year.  A Qb is supposed to deal with that crap not sink to a lower level like he did. But you do make a point. If your team can get into the playoffs you have a chance to go a long way. We did it two years in a row, And so there is no way you can predict a SB appearance. Your best shot is to get your foot in the door  and then hope you get hot. Our best chance to make the playoffs is with Fitz. 

schilens wasn't that bad?  name me the QBs(besides Brady) that have won w/ similar weapons like Schilens, gates and hill?

[Mike135]

7 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

schilens wasn't that bad?  name me the QBs(besides Brady) that have won w/ similar weapons like Schilens, gates and hill?

Brady even struggles with below average WRs.  What happened when Edelman went down late last year?  What'd they lose 5 of 6 or something?  And that's with Gronk.

Sure it sounds like an easy excuse, but the surrounding talent and scheme can really make or break a QB.

[nyjunc]

2 minutes ago, Mike135 said:

Brady even struggles with below average WRs.  What happened when Edelman went down late last year?  What'd they lose 5 of 6 or something?  And that's with Gronk.

Sure it sounds like an easy excuse, but the surrounding talent and scheme can really make or break a QB.

Brady did make an AFC title game w/ reche Caldwell and Jabar gaffney as his main weapons, he's basically the only guy where it doesn't matter who is around him.  to expect mark sanchez or 98% of the other QBs to succeed w/ what we had going on in 2012 just isn't fair.

[slats]

44 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Less than 200 yards a game and 1 TD a week are good numbers? I mean maybe in the days of the AFL. That's putrid in today's game. Geno's interception rate those games was so low because he literally never got to throw the ball. They handed it off two straight weeks if I remember correctly.  

That's the best you've got? Lol. With lesser weapons, and lesser coaching, against stronger competition, Geno put up better percentages than Fitz across the board. There's little reason to believe he'd do much -if any- worse than Fitz with Gailey, Marshall, and Forte. And far less reason than that to believe that Fitz would perform to the tune of $7-10M+ better than Geno. Sure, I'd expect some continued bone-headedness from Geno, but also expect him to push the ball down the field much better. I'd also expect Fitz to regress from last year against tougher competition, and the probability of actual northeast football weather. 

[Mike135]

Geno even seems more mature now dealing with reporters.

 

[ylekram]

58 minutes ago, slats said:

That's the best you've got? Lol. With lesser weapons, and lesser coaching, against stronger competition, Geno put up better percentages than Fitz across the board. There's little reason to believe he'd do much -if any- worse than Fitz with Gailey, Marshall, and Forte. And far less reason than that to believe that Fitz would perform to the tune of $7-10M+ better than Geno. Sure, I'd expect some continued bone-headedness from Geno, but also expect him to push the ball down the field much better. I'd also expect Fitz to regress from last year against tougher competition, and the probability of actual northeast football weather. 

gotta luv jetnation. the site that doesn't discriminate. there is an excuse for everything. qb plays well? there is an excuse. qb plays horribly? there is an excuse

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Less than 200 yards a game and 1 TD a week are good numbers? I mean maybe in the days of the AFL. That's putrid in today's game. Geno's interception rate those games was so low because he literally never got to throw the ball. They handed it off two straight weeks if I remember correctly.  

To be fair, against Buffalo he missed 75% of the game since Vick started, and then the following week in the (first) Miami game Ryan made a spiteful joke by running the ball every down between the first and last series. It was just about the most selfish, childish thing I've seen a coach do, done just to stick it to his GM. You know that gameplan didn't come from Mornhinweg. It would have been the perfect opportunity to fire Ryan on the spot, and have an interim coach tank the rest of the season while we were sitting there at 2-10, in the catbird seat to finish with the #1 pick.  

Of course that doesn't give Smith "woulda done it" credit for a lofty passing numbers that game, but that was among the more infuriating games last year. It would be one thing if he was tanking for a high draft pick. This was pure spite.

[win4ever]

10 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Teams do it all the time. I'm not sure why you're so mad on the Internet. The Jets had to restructure Carpenter earlier to make room for defensive lineman. They'll do it again soon to fit the rookies, or someone is getting cut. It's the nature of the beast and the business. When they bring back Fitz, they'll do it again and they'll do it in a smart way. Unless you have zero faith in these guys and the new regime.

So accept a small sample size over the larger one? If take Geno's numbers and extrapolate them over an entire season, he goes 0-16. See how silly that is? Cheaper and younger isn't always better and it doesn't matter what you think of the drop off. All that matters is what TB and MM think. You know, the paid professionals. 

Lol, you are questioning if I'm mad after calling out educational credentials and proctolgists in this thread?  Projecting are we?

The nature of the business is fine, but another things teams all do is move on from free agents that refuse to alter their negotiation tactics, and have different plans.   I think I have more faith in the regime in not paying up for Fitz, than a way to fit him in somehow at the cost of other sacrifices, be it roster spots or cap flexibility in the future.  

Extrapolating team stats?  Geno in his career, 11-18.  Fitzpatrick started out 12-23, so by that standard, Geno is well ahead of the curve.  I don't think anyone here thinks that their opinion actually counts in the matters of the Jets, just fans discussing the status of the team and their opinions.  If you feel like posting opinions here is not worth it, I think you are about 40,000 posts late.  

[win4ever]

9 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Totally agree. The only thing I was (initially) commenting on was that reaching an agreement with Mo will lower his 2016 cap number. That is unless, for some reason, Maccagnan chooses to spread it more evenly (like deals for Revis, Cromartie, Marshall).

As far as the Geno stats, there were extreme single-game outliers in both directions. I wouldn't shrug off the perfect game the way others do, as though Miami was taking the field, risking injury to their starters, and not trying (or were outright tanking). There was a similar outlier game in the opposite direction, against Buffalo. He got yanked (mercifully and appropriately), but if left in would he have settled down to the point his stats would have evened out, or would he have thrown 10 interceptions? We'll never know for certain. There were other meaningless passing stats that do get factored in (that make his passing numbers look worse) like 2 picks on basically hail mary passes that were of no consequence (one a pick 6, but were we really marching 90 yards in 24 seconds with no timeouts against Denver? Of course not). He also got a clutch big time throw TD taken away by that f*cking timeout against GB. 

The other side of that coin is that the brutal sacks he took that pulled us out of FG range (and fumbles he committed), that directly took points off the board, do not adequately negatively factor into QB ratings. Just like Fitzpatrick the season before. He had one crazy game that (not unlike Geno's perfect-QBR game) made the rest of his year look better than it was. In reality, neither one played a small percentage of that great game in each outing. It was one game, and piling on further after a win was already secured in one game certainly didn't help their teams in their prior outings. Especially considering that, weeks prior in that same season, each was benched for poor play.

I like spreading it out as much as possible, because 300 pound guys call fall of a cliff at times, so I rather have the option open to move on without it being absolutely horrible rather than being locked in.  I don't think Wilkerson is going to fall off any time soon, but maybe 4 years down the road, I don't want the cap hit to be massive if he does.  

I don't think Geno is a stud, nor do I think Fitz is a stud.  The QB situation is pretty much in air right now and someone has to step up.  I think last year, I took a look at the tapes for Geno, and there were plenty of occasions where he was ready to throw, but no one was open at all.  Guys like Nelson, Kerley, Hill, injured Holmes, Winslow, Cumberland weren't good enough to separate from people consistently.  All of them had speed issues, except Hill, who had route running issues.  I think the big reason people love Braylon was because he was one of the few that could catch the ball in traffic.  While Geno definitely didn't elevate people around him, I don't think he's a lost cause when your other options are Fitz or two unproven guys.  Now, if someone good came along, then I'd be more than fine putting Geno on the back burner, but that's not the case.   

I think the system from Marty to Gailey is night and day, and fits Geno, and many other QBs, much better than people realize.  I would love to see him play in the system over Fitz because if Geno improves, it really helps solve QB issues for awhile (similar to Cousins) and we can focus on other parts of the offense.    

[JohnnyLV]

23 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Arguing whether or not Fitz is worth it or not is one thing. Being able to afford it is another. The former is subjective. The latter is not.  They can most assuredly afford him. And paying Fitz isn't stopping the Jets from paying Wilk. 

Can only afford him by cutting players or using future cap. Fitzpatrick is not worth doing either of those

[CrazyCarl40]

Just now, johnnysd said:

Can only afford him by cutting players or using future cap. Fitzpatrick is not worth doing either of those

Or just re-signing Mo Wilk to a reasonable deal.

[Matt39]

4 hours ago, slats said:

, Geno put up better percentages than Fitz across the board. 

uhh what

[CrazyCarl40]

10 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

uhh what

You know. In a small 6 game sample size where he was barely allowed to throw the ball vs. Fitz's entire 2015. People skew the numbers massively on this forum to support their claims. Like this poll. 

[Mike135]

2 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Like this poll. 

Oh this is a poll?  I didn't realize.

Would ya look at that.  

Geno has 45 votes!

Then add 42 votes if Fitz doesn't accept 7mil.

87 to 41 in Geno's favor.  Who woulda thought?

[Matt39]

4 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

You know. In a small 6 game sample size where he was barely allowed to throw the ball vs. Fitz's entire 2015. People skew the numbers massively on this forum to support their claims. Like this poll. 

Yeah Im confused on what metric he's referring to. There isnt anything Geno did that was statistically better than Fitzpatrick.

[Saul Goodman]

It's funny because there always seems to be beat writers that like to play devil's advocate or contrarian, and I haven't seen one so far suggest that it would be a good idea to start Geno Smith at quarterback next year. Same with the national media. And same with the 31 other fan bases. It's literally just a percentage of Jet fans posting on message boards that advocate for this guy. Everyone else thinks he's horrible.