Why we haven't seen Hack IMO

[Dunnie]

Unless he is simply 100% unprepared, it's hard to see how "not play, not get any snaps" is whats "best" for Hack or best for the Franchise, given we paid a 2nd Round Pick to get him.  Generally you have to actually touch a football in order to "develop".

It's fine, I suppose, if he is indeed 100% unready.  One can argue he's a long-term developmental pick.  Thats ok.

But please lets not call sh*t a diamond.  If he's 100% unready to play, and hence does not play, the cost paid to get him was way too high.  Unready developmental QB's are late round picks, not 2nd round picks.

BAP

[UnitedWhofans]

2 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

BAP

At some point, you have to take a chance on a QB. Jets took a chance. End of story. And I dont ******* care how Paxton Lynch looks this year. He's going into a Super Bowl situation.

Its the same reason why trading for Mark Sanchez was a good move. YOU HAVE TO TAKE A CHANCE

[Warfish]

6 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

At some point, you have to take a chance on a QB. Jets took a chance. End of story. And I dont ******* care how Paxton Lynch looks this year. He's going into a Super Bowl situation.

Its the same reason why trading for Mark Sanchez was a good move. YOU HAVE TO TAKE A CHANCE

No one disagrees with taking a chance, especially on a QB.

They disagree with the logic behind the chances we took (in some cases).

I've been open and honest, I would not have drafted Sanchez, Geno or Hack.  Was against all three picks the moment they were made. 

But Hack clearly needs time.  And time he should be given, now that we own him for a while.

Like I said above, I think alot of our more rational minds will be settled if we see him take a snap or two in a (PS) game.  

Having your 2nd Round Pick QB never take a snap his rookie year, and not be hurt as the cause, is.....unprecedented?

 

[dbatesman]

39 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

At some point, you have to take a chance on a QB. Jets took a chance. End of story. And I dont ******* care how Paxton Lynch looks this year. He's going into a Super Bowl situation.

Its the same reason why trading for Mark Sanchez was a good move. YOU HAVE TO TAKE A CHANCE

lollercoaster

[Paradis]

It means little to not to see Hack in preseason this year. He's looked like sh*t for the last 2 years. That wasn't going to change in 4 months. He still looks like sh*t, and there's no rush to prove that. That's part of the package you all have to buy in on with Master Mike. 

It IS going to be a issue next year though, better believe that. 

Taking Christian "wtf" Hackenberg in the 2nd round and passing on the QB (whom the SB champions traded up for) is most definitely going to follow Macc around... We're all--  "OK Mike, apparently you know something the rest of us don't..."  He couldn't have picked a more risky reclamation project than Hackenberg. And for what? He didn't even look great in 2013. 

So yea, huge risk and totally not worth it in my opinion, but you'll have to tune in next year to find out if he's going to be held up in our shoulders, or asked to fall on his sword.

[jgb]

This team is going to win the Superbowl if this many fans got time to worry about why a rookie, 4th string, shell shocked, reclamation project QB in his 6th week of pro camp isn't getting to throw passes in the 4th quarter of pre-season games.

Jets fans would worry when curfew was in Heaven.

[detectivekimble]

2 hours ago, Big Blocker said:

again it shouldn't be necessary to understand more about Smith and his situation.  What is he likely to do in the next pre-season game that will provide a basis for having confidence in him to be a solid backup for Fitz?

Well, let's see, Geno is only in his fourth year and the current regime has only seen him in live action once.  Young QBs do tend to improve from years two to three and three to four.

[ljr]

16 minutes ago, jgb said:

 

Jets fans would worry when curfew was in Heaven.

Lol, or if the public restrooms are going to have a push to enter door ... And also "air dryer" machines instead of paper towels ... Thus forcing them to touch the door handle with their hands to leave!

[ljr]

12 minutes ago, detectivekimble said:

Well, let's see, Geno is only in his fourth year and the current regime has only seen him in live action once.  Young QBs do tend to improve from years two to three and three to four.

Unfortunately that once in year four live action showed the same mistakes as year 1

[kdels62]

59 minutes ago, jgb said:

This team is going to win the Superbowl if this many fans got time to worry about why a rookie, 4th string, shell shocked, reclamation project QB in his 6th week of pro camp isn't getting to throw passes in the 4th quarter of pre-season games.

Jets fans would worry when curfew was in Heaven.

I think the big issue is that the QB was a 2nd round pick and probably could have been had later on. Of course if Hack is a good QB in 2 years (when this stuff actually matters) then he'll be beloved.

[jgb]

I think the big issue is that QB was a 2nd round pick and probably could have been had later on. Off course in Hack is a good QB in 2 years (when this stuff actually matters) then he'll be beloved.

I wouldn't worry about it as you said plenty of time why use valuable reps now when jets have pending decisions to make on other players at the position

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[kdels62]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

I wouldn't worry about it as you said plenty of time why use valuable reps now when jets have pending decisions to make on other players at the position

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Oh I'm not freaking out about it and Hackenberg haters have a mostly idiotic mentality but this particular issue- draft status in regards to use to us now - kinda makes sense.

[Larz]

ok we need nicknames for the teams

how about hackenhaters and hackenologists ?

[peekskill68]

4 hours ago, gEYno said:

Let's reframe this for a second.  So, it is more important to settle your second string QB than it is to get reps for the 2nd round project pick you drafted to be the future of the franchise?

In this particular case, yes.  I've been mostly pro-Geno and never felt he was coached properly or put in a system to succeed. But if the CS feels he is near his ceiling,  I would use the following 2 games to really make a determination whether the difference between his current skill level and Petty's is close enough to cut ties with him and use his roster spot to keep a young position player with a more dynamic upside.  This is more important to me than getting Hack's feet wet, especially with the number of 30+ year old players we currently have...

[jgb]

55 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Oh I'm not freaking out about it and Hackenberg haters have a mostly idiotic mentality but this particular issue- draft status in regards to use to us now - kinda makes sense.

Most drafted QBs end up disappointing, especially outside of the 1st round, so it doesn't take great courage to say Hack will fail. Now if those same people accurately pick the QBs from this class that will become franchise guys, then I will be impressed.

[dbatesman]

34 minutes ago, jgb said:

Most drafted QBs end up disappointing, especially outside of the 1st round, so it doesn't take great courage to say Hack will fail. Now if those same people accurately pick the QBs from this class that will become franchise guys, then I will be impressed.

You're looking at this entirely backwards. The problem with Hackenberg is the numbers, but they're not the big-n longshot odds that every QB prospect faces; they're a very specific set of highly predictive benchmarks that Hackenberg in particular fails to meet.

[jgb]

You're looking at this entirely backwards. The problem with Hackenberg is the numbers, but they're not the big-n longshot odds that every QB prospect faces; they're a very specific set of highly predictive benchmarks that Hackenberg in particular fails to meet.

I dunno. Dont really place a lot of emphasis on that pseudo science stuff otherwise jamarcus Russell and Tom Brady wouldn't exist. Brain and intangibles most important. Of course oddly enough I didn't get any GM job offers this offseason.

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[dbatesman]

5 minutes ago, jgb said:

Dont really place a lot of emphasis on that pseudo science stuff

I'm talking about completion percentage and games started.

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

I'm talking about completion percentage and games started.

Guess who

Year	School	Conf	Class	Pos	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	TD	Int	Rate
				QB	7	28	66	42.4	507	7.7	3.4	4	8	102.7
				QB	9	99	189	52.4	1604	8.5	7.7	11	8	134.4
				QB	11	141	260	54.2	2010	7.7	6.9	10	9	124.9
						268	515	52.0	4121	8.0	6.8	25	25	125.6

 

 

[dbatesman]

3 minutes ago, jgb said:

Guess who

Year	School	Conf	Class	Pos	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	TD	Int	Rate
				QB	7	28	66	42.4	507	7.7	3.4	4	8	102.7
				QB	9	99	189	52.4	1604	8.5	7.7	11	8	134.4
				QB	11	141	260	54.2	2010	7.7	6.9	10	9	124.9
						268	515	52.0	4121	8.0	6.8	25	25	125.6

 

 

Some Hall of Famer, I presume, and since he exists, all numbers are voodoo

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Some Hall of Famer, I presume, and since he exists, all numbers are voodoo

Joe Montana. And how can you say all numbers are voodoo when you just said games started and completion percentage mattered?

Only way to get higher than expected value is to not use the same exact metrics to evaluate players as everyone else. Leadership qualities and composure under fire ("Joe Cool") are much more valuable than a million dollar arm with a ten cent head ala Nuke Laloosh.

[dbatesman]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

Joe Montana. And how can you say all numbers are voodoo when you just said games started and completion percentage mattered?

Only way to get higher than expected value is to not use the same exact metrics to evaluate players as everyone else. Leadership qualities and pressure under fire ("Joe Cool") are much more valuable than a million dollar arm with a ten cent head ala Nuke Laloosh.

Damn. Back to the drawing board, I guess

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Damn. Back to the drawing board, I guess

The existence of outliers does not refute your point. All I'm saying is an OK GM can apply the formulas and rank guys based on metrics. The GREAT GMs can identify those outliers. And since, by definition, the outliers lie outside of the conventional wisdom (e.g., guys with great measurables bust, guys with poor measurables excel), then the ability to identify them must not have a numerical basis and must therefore depend on something more ephemeral such as an eye ball test or gut feel, or if the prospect shows up on time to the interview and looks you in the eye when talking. Who knows. If it was easy it would be easily repeatable.

[Jolot]

12 minutes ago, jgb said:

Guess who

Year	School	Conf	Class	Pos	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	TD	Int	Rate
				QB	7	28	66	42.4	507	7.7	3.4	4	8	102.7
				QB	9	99	189	52.4	1604	8.5	7.7	11	8	134.4
				QB	11	141	260	54.2	2010	7.7	6.9	10	9	124.9
						268	515	52.0	4121	8.0	6.8	25	25	125.6

 

 

Joe Montana....obviously 

[dbatesman]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

The existence of outliers does not refute your point. All I'm saying is an OK GM can apply the formulas and rank guys based on metrics. The GREAT GMs can identify those outliers. And since, by definition, the outliers lie outside of the conventional wisdom (e.g., guys with great measurables bust, guys with poor measurables excel), then the ability to identify them must not have a numerical basis.

Sure, but to the point at hand, Hackenberg turning into even a marginal starter would mean that a.) literally everything we know about scouting quarterbacks is wrong, and b.) the Jets of all teams were the first to figure this out. I'm not holding my breath.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, dbatesman said:

Sure, but to the point at hand, Hackenberg turning into even a marginal starter would mean that a.) literally everything we know about scouting quarterbacks is wrong, and b.) the Jets of all teams were the first to figure this out. I'm not holding my breath.

Well considering 2nd round draft picks have a well over 50% bust rate, maybe even over 75% or even higher (don't have statistics) then yes odds are he will not become a full time starter. I would bet against every drafted QB becoming a "successful" starter (depending on the definition) as the odds would always be on my side.

[dbatesman]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

Well considering 2nd round draft picks have a well over 50% bust rate, maybe even over 75% or even higher (don't have statistics) then yes odds are he will not become a full time starter. I would bet against every drafted QB becoming a "successful" starter (depending on the definition) as the odds would always be on my side.

That's kind of my point. There's so much competition for good QBs, and so many positive outcomes associated with getting ahold of one, that you have to give yourself the best chance of success. Of course Hackenberg could be the one-in-a-million guy who bucks all the trends, but all the available evidence suggests that drafting a QB in the 2nd puts you behind the 8-ball, and drafting one in the 2nd who didn't complete 60% of his passes in college is lunacy. If we wanted to take a flier, Cardale has better tools and just as many red flags and was available two rounds later.

[jgb]

That's kind of my point. There's so much competition for good QBs, and so many positive outcomes associated with getting ahold of one, that you have to give yourself the best chance of success. Of course Hackenberg could be the one-in-a-million guy who bucks all the trends, but all the available evidence suggests that drafting a QB in the 2nd puts you behind the 8-ball, and drafting one in the 2nd who didn't complete 60% of his passes in college is lunacy. If we wanted to take a flier, Cardale has better tools and just as many red flags and was available two rounds later.

Thank God for Fitz

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[Paradis]

1 hour ago, dbatesman said:

That's kind of my point. There's so much competition for good QBs, and so many positive outcomes associated with getting ahold of one, that you have to give yourself the best chance of success. Of course Hackenberg could be the one-in-a-million guy who bucks all the trends, but all the available evidence suggests that drafting a QB in the 2nd puts you behind the 8-ball, and drafting one in the 2nd who didn't complete 60% of his passes in college is lunacy. If we wanted to take a flier, Cardale has better tools and just as many red flags and was available two rounds later.

This right here really captures my feelings and raises (at least) some concern about Mike and Gailey's decision making. There's a handful of scenarios where a team spending a 3rd or a 4th on Hack makes some sense - behind an established starter. Why this team would spend a 2nd is head scratcher to say the least. 

[RutgersJetFan]

2 hours ago, dbatesman said:

Sure, but to the point at hand, Hackenberg turning into even a marginal starter would mean that a.) literally everything we know about scouting quarterbacks is wrong, and b.) the Jets of all teams were the first to figure this out. I'm not holding my breath.

Oh god dammit. He's right.

[thebuzzardman]

10 hours ago, ljr said:

Lol, or if the public restrooms are going to have a push to enter door ... And also "air dryer" machines instead of paper towels ... Thus forcing them to touch the door handle with their hands to leave!

These things worry me because Hackenberg has small hands. 

[DetroitRed]

We have not seen him because he has been a complete disaster in practice. I think there is a chance he doesn't even play against the Eagles 

[ZachEY]

16 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

I'll bite. In this instance maybe. It's more important to determine if you need to carry four quarterbacks than it is getting Hackenberg garbage time reps in a preseason game. The Jets are an old and top-heavy team that is in desperate need of some young, cheap talent; because the bottom is going to fall out from under this franchise in 2017 and 2018 quickly if it doesn't. Therefore the Jets need roster space because you need to be able to play the odds. The franchise and fanbase had zero expectations for Hackenberg to begin with, so when the possibility of doing away with Geno presented itself, the upside of giving those two those minutes (the roster spot), presented itself. That's more important than getting Hackenberg 2 quarters (if that) worth of work.

Certainly a chance that he just sucks, but I'd rather we keep all the receivers that we have because they all look like they have something going on in some way. And holy balls are we in desperate need of a cheap gem at CB too. You need roster space for that, and using that space on 4 QBs is just so monumentally wasteful to that specific thing.

Maybe.  But, if Hackenberg's practices didn't look like they do, at least according to the limited reports.  Do you really believe they'd be holding him out?  Honestly, my concern is less about preseason minutes than it is about the fact that he can barely earn practice reps.

[JustInFudge]

http://jetswire.usatoday.com/2016/08/22/former-nfl-director-of-college-scouting-says-jets-know-hackenberg-cant-play/

Jets rookie quarterback Christian Hackenberg has yet to to play a snap through two preseason games. He was supposed to play on Friday night, but didn’t.

Why?

“Coach’s decision,” Todd Bowles, said after the game.

Normally this wouldn’t be a big deal, even with Hackenberg being a second-round pick. But when pressed for more details, Bowles continued to dance around the question.

RELATED:

Christian Hackenberg in odd preseason spot for second-round rookie QBs

“We’ve got a plan for the quarterbacks that we’re not revealing,” Bowles said. “We’ll play the guys that we have scheduled to play.”

Odds are that the Jets are protecting their prized young quarterback. Throwing an inexperienced rookie into the fire with a backup offensive line isn’t always the best move. The biggest concern is why the team is being so secretive with Hackenberg.

One former Director of College Scouting has a theory.

 

 Follow

Greg Gabriel @greggabe

The Jets are finding out Hackenberg can't play. Hardly a surprise.#wasted pick

10:37 AM - 20 Aug 2016

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Gabriel, who is the former Director of College Scouting for the Bears, has worked as a scout for over 30 years.

Hackenberg was one of the most polarizing players in the 2015 NFL draft and his selection in the second round was met with much skepticism. The Jets obviously like Hackenberg and have big plans for him, but they know he has a long way to go.

Hackenberg has all of the qualities to be a franchise quarterback. He has ideal size, a cannon for an arm and scouts rave about his football IQ. But his throwing mechanics and footwork leave a lot to be desired. A year sitting on the sidelines following noted quarterback guruChan Gailey and watching Ryan Fitzpatrick will help.

If the Jets would simply give a straight answer as to why Hackenberg hasn’t played, a lot of this speculation would go away.

[ZachEY]

12 hours ago, kdels62 said:

Oh I'm not freaking out about it and Hackenberg haters have a mostly idiotic mentality but this particular issue- draft status in regards to use to us now - kinda makes sense.

Just so I'm clear on what the idiotic mentality is... Thinking a guy who was okay at best his first year, and awful the following two years in college, and then has been by all accounts awful in his first training camp, and who can't earn practice or preseason reps, is not going to magically merit a second round pick and be a legitimate quality starter at some point is idiotic.  As opposed to the contrary, thinking a guy who couldn't complete passes in college and can't complete passes in shorts, is going to continue to be unable to complete passes, which is the smart way of thinking.