Jets Prepared to Open the Checkbook for Winters?

[RSJ]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm putting it to you the way I put it earlier:

"Brian RSJ Winters (lol), here's my offer of a 3 year extension at $3m per, with $4m guaranteed. Your upside, frankly, isn't much higher than that anyway. Sign it and you'll be our starter for years, making millions. You'll be set for life. and will hit FA again at age 29 (if we don't extend you again before then). If you don't sign it you will be a backup player after I find your replacement in free agency in the next 2 weeks. There are about 20 guards available, and if not I still have the draft after that."

More correctly, he puts it that way to your agent, who knows it's not a bluff because he sees it happen plenty with his other young clients. He'd advise you (Winters) to do the smart thing and take the millions in front of him while the offer is there, because there's a good chance it won't be there a week later.

I doubt Winters would bet his livelihood on the hope that Maccagnan won't sign a FA guard that would drop him back to 2nd string. He can believe in himself all he wants; he also must realistically know there's a dramatic difference between himself and the game's best guards that still don't get $10m/yr like other positions.

You won't sit me. You need to play your best 5 and my back up plays like he has two left feet. Take your deal and shove it. lol

[Sperm Edwards]

4 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

You can think that believing in himself wouldn't affect his positioning all you want.  A players pride and belief in their talent usually affects negotiations.  Your proposal, again, complete ignores the idea that maybe we just didn't want to sign him.  We have no idea how the team felt about him and his potential, but all signs say that they weren't expecting him to play to this high of a level.  Even if your scenario was real,  if Winters was replaced by a high pick or FA after turning a deal down, then that would be on him and no one else.  We also wouldn't be having this discussion right now because he would have never had a great 2016 and would have never been due a big pay day so all of this becomes irrelevant.  If for some reason he was still named the starter AFTER a high pick lineman was selected and had a good season, would you still be complaining about losing him?  No.  Because we would have had a viable replacement.  Would you be upset that we used a high pick on a lineman?  No, because nothing Winters had done in the past would have pointed to a year like this.

Developmental players that a team likes go to the practice squad to hone their skills.  The Jets probably did like Simon, but we're you expecting them to cut one of Harrison, Couples (who was still here at the time), Leo, or Sheldon to stash him on the 53?  No.  Thats why they put him there.  He didn't have much pro tape, but they obviously liked what they saw from his limited game action and camp sessions.  Like I said, Enunwa spent most of his rookie year on the practice squad.  Now look at him.  Teams absolutely will stash players there in the hopes that they aren't snatched up.  Thinking otherwise is naive.

 

Like I just said to RSJ, he can believe in himself all he wants. He must surely know he's not the same level of player as some of his other peers. 

If they didn't want to sign him then, there's nothing that happened in 2016 that should make them suddenly change their minds (other than getting tossed around like a girl by Suh) and want him for another 3-4 years.

Again, I am 100% ok with the team moving on from him to upgrade the RG position. If that is their plan then I have no complaint in how he was handled. My issue is based on the thread starting topic, of "opening up the checkbook" for him, so thoughts that the team wants to move on from him are irrelevant to the argument. 

At the time they cut Simon they had no other NT on the roster. There was no McLendon and, at the time, no serious plan to move on from Snacks. They were surely still hoping to re-sign Snacks, and they indicated as late as Feb 2016 they wanted to re-sign him. They were still trying to trade Mo so they could then potentially use the franchise tag on Snacks instead. Of course, no one was biting on Maccagnan's usual delusional demands, so they had to let Snacks go. That is what happened, not this revisionist idea that they knew they had a Snacks replacement in Deon Simon whom they'd just cut in September. 

[Sperm Edwards]

10 minutes ago, RSJ said:

You won't sit me. You need to play your best 5 and my back up plays like he has two left feet. Take your deal and shove it. lol

"I only need 2 starting guards, not 5, and already have 1. I found a LG in Carpenter and with that long list of FA guards I can find an upgrade replacement for you, too. Especially since you've made it personal by getting so snippy with me you overglorified backup piece of s***t. I had 2 cups of coffee this morning that I value more than your fat ass. Enjoy making the league minimum next year, turdface."

*sips 3rd cup of coffee*

hahahaha.

[CanadaSteve]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Try again. Going into this year, not going into 2015.

He knew what holes he'd have all over the place entering 2017. If he views Winters as good enough to plug a hole for now he was good enough to plug after the prior season. 

But he was not good enough Sperm.  Show me a poster in 2015, or at the start of this year that thought Brian Winters was worth a multi-year contract sitting anywhere in the $5-$8 million dollar range?  There wasn't anyone.

I would STILL be hesitant to sign him for big dollars when we have a  couple of guys here already, a FA period, and a draft ahead of us.  

[Sperm Edwards]

12 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

But he was not good enough Sperm.  Show me a poster in 2015, or at the start of this year that thought Brian Winters was worth a multi-year contract sitting anywhere in the $5-$8 million dollar range?  There wasn't anyone.

I would STILL be hesitant to sign him for big dollars when we have a  couple of guys here already, a FA period, and a draft ahead of us.  

1. What message board posters say means nothing. The team felt he was worthy of a starting job. My evidence is that they made no serious effort to replace him in FA or in the draft as they headed into the 2016 season.

2. I don't know where you get the $5-8m range from unless you're talking about total contract value on a 2-3 yr extension.

I'm saying if the team is now looking to keep him for 2017+, then he should have been extended for a few years for a total of about $9m or so, with about $4m guaranteed. I seriously don't think that's far off from what he'd have commanded as a very meh starter, who only got his job back due to injury, with a realistic threat of replacing him with a FA that season if he didn't sign, which would have relegated him right back to the bench. 

[Mogglez]

 

On 1/9/2017 at 11:14 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

Nope, not true. The huge improvement from Winters was from '14 to '15, infinitely more than his improvement from '15 to '16. 

At age 24, entering his 4th season, he was a worthwhile gamble as a player that began to show improvement, into hopefully fully developing into the player that was (then) a non-reach in round 3. If (as you claim) he looked like nothing more than a backup to the team, they'd surely have found a replacement in free agency, or by the draft at the latest. They brought in no one. Because they liked him, and viewed him as a starter not as a backup.

Cromartie was coming off a year where he got a pro bowl inclusion by reputation. He was burned plenty in '14 despite having Peterson on the other side (or maybe because he had Peterson on the other side). It was a foolish signing at the time, given the $7m pricetag, and that foolishness was confirmed by the ensuing season.

Idk what else I can tell you other than almost all of this is incorrect.  Winters lost the RG job to Willie Colons corpse, and when he stepped in looked like nothing more than a serviceable backup.  They did try and get replacements for him and missed out when Kelechi Osemele passed on us for the Raiders so, again, you're wrong there.

Cromartie had a good 2014.  There's no way around it or cherry picking it.  There were plenty here pissed off about it.  Then we signed him and everyone was pissed that we signed him. Regardless, it was essentially 1 year for 7 million.  Who cares at this point?  There was no one better we could have used that money on.  It's whatever at this point.

On 1/9/2017 at 11:33 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

At the time they cut Simon they had no other NT on the roster. There was no McLendon and, at the time, no serious plan to move on from Snacks. They were surely still hoping to re-sign Snacks, and they indicated as late as Feb 2016 they wanted to re-sign him. They were still trying to trade Mo so they could then potentially use the franchise tag on Snacks instead. Of course, no one was biting on Maccagnan's usual delusional demands, so they had to let Snacks go. That is what happened, not this revisionist idea that they knew they had a Snacks replacement in Deon Simon whom they'd just cut in September. 

If you really thought that they could feasibly afford Snacks, Mo, and Sheldon then I have a bridge to sell you.  Remember when we "wanted" to sign both Holmes AND Edwards? How they were "both in our plans for 2011".  How about "He is under contract, so we expect Darrelle to be a Jet in 2013"? GMs say this sh*t all the time.  Snacks basically wrote his goodbye to the team and the fans after the Bills game.  We were never resigning him.  Whether it was Simon or a FA replacing him, we never actually thought he was coming back.  It has nothing to do with anyone's delusional demands.  You're twisting things to fit your narrative because you don't like the GM.  I don't care that you don't like him, but the only one playing revisionist games is you.

[deucebag]

I'd let Winters walk.  He really isn't that good and shud be able to draft a better player.  Save the $$$ for more desperate needs...like CB, pass rusher, TE and OT....oh and QB!

[LionelRichie]

Let winters walk, pick up the comp pick - especially if someone wants to give him 6m / year.  

I'm actually ok with qvale / shell on the right side with a draft pick either starting ahead of qvale or for depth.  

[Sperm Edwards]

4 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

 

Idk what else I can tell you other than almost all of this is incorrect.  Winters lost the RG job to Willie Colons corpse, and when he stepped in looked like nothing more than a serviceable backup.  They did try and get replacements for him and missed out when Kelechi Osemele passed on us for the Raiders so, again, you're wrong there.

Cromartie had a good 2014.  There's no way around it or cherry picking it.  There were plenty here pissed off about it.  Then we signed him and everyone was pissed that we signed him. Regardless, it was essentially 1 year for 7 million.  Who cares at this point?  There was no one better we could have used that money on.  It's whatever at this point.

If you really thought that they could feasibly afford Snacks, Mo, and Sheldon then I have a bridge to sell you.  Remember when we "wanted" to sign both Holmes AND Edwards? How they were "both in our plans for 2011".  How about "He is under contract, so we expect Darrelle to be a Jet in 2013?"  GMs say this sh*t all the time.  Snack basically wrote his goodbye to the team and the fans after the Bills game.  We were never resigning him.  Whether it was Simon or a FA replacing him, we never actually thought he was coming back.  It has nothing to do with anyone's delusional demands.  You're twisting things to fit your narrative because you don't like the GM.  I don't care that you don't like him, but the only one playing revisionist games is you.

They missed out on plenty of people. Just because he failed in seeking an upgrade doesn't therefore mean he viewed him as only a backup. And if he did, then that doesn't make Maccagnan look any better since went with him as the 2016 starter.

Cromartie had just an ok 2014. It was discussed here plenty. He got burned plenty. The reason it's relevant is that was more guaranteed money than we'd have had to fork over to Winters, who at least had a chance to improve into the team's long term starter at RG. Cromartie was a temporary patch, and a bad one at that. There were many players that were better than Antonio Cromartie in 2015, so any of them would have been more worthy of the money. Like Snacks, whom you say we had no room to fit.

Of course we had room for Snacks IF he was extended at the appropriate time. Back then the highest paid 3-4 NT in the NFL was making under $5m per so there's no way he'd have commanded close to $9m as a RFA. Even if Snacks would have then cost a million more than any other 3-4 NT back then, and it's not known that he would have, that's still only about $3m/yr more than McLendon who wouldn't be needed. Now on a 4 yr extension, further subtract another $2m/yr if we put $7m towards Snacks instead of freaking Antonio Cromartie. It gets even easier if the team didn't carry a 3rd unnecessary DE for still millions more.

There was plenty of money. He just simply pissed a bunch of it away on bad contracts for older players who were obviously past their primes, and redundant players like carrying Williams and Mo and Sheldon.

The idea that we couldn't afford Snacks and Mo and Sheldon is as irrelevant as it is incorrect. Maccagnan felt he could afford Mo and Sheldon and Williams, even with one of them being wholly unnecessary for the past 2 years. It's irrelevant anyway, since Maccagnan had been trying to trade Mo since he got here. He only gave Mo that contract after he was caught holding the hot potato.

You are twisting yourself into a pretzel to defend a GM that is unworthy of such defense. 

[Sperm Edwards]

15 minutes ago, LionelRichie said:

Let winters walk, pick up the comp pick - especially if someone wants to give him 6m / year.  

I'm actually ok with qvale / shell on the right side with a draft pick either starting ahead of qvale or for depth.  

I'm fine with letting him go as well. I don't think we'll see a comp pick for him, though. Too much cash is likely to be cleared up shortly, and we're therefore unlikely to lose more UFAs than we sign.

[Mogglez]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

They missed out on plenty of people. Just because he failed in seeking an upgrade doesn't therefore mean he viewed him as only a backup. And if he did, then that doesn't make Maccagnan look any better since went with him as the 2016 starter.

Cromartie had just an ok 2014. It was discussed here plenty. He got burned plenty. The reason it's relevant is that was more guaranteed money than we'd have had to fork over to Winters, who at least had a chance to improve into the team's long term starter at RG. Cromartie was a temporary patch, and a bad one at that. There were many players that were better than Antonio Cromartie in 2015, so any of them would have been more worthy of the money. Like Snacks, whom you say we had no room to fit.

Of course we had room for Snacks IF he was extended at the appropriate time. Back then the highest paid 3-4 NT in the NFL was making under $5m per so there's no way he'd have commanded close to $9m as a RFA. Even if Snacks would have then cost a million more than any other 3-4 NT back then, and it's not known that he would have, that's still only about $3m/yr more than McLendon who wouldn't be needed. Now on a 4 yr extension, further subtract another $2m/yr if we put $7m towards Snacks instead of freaking Antonio Cromartie. It gets even easier if the team didn't carry a 3rd unnecessary DE for still millions more.

There was plenty of money. He just simply pissed a bunch of it away on bad contracts for older players who were obviously past their primes, and redundant players like carrying Williams and Mo and Sheldon.

The idea that we couldn't afford Snacks and Mo and Sheldon is as irrelevant as it is incorrect. Maccagnan felt he could afford Mo and Sheldon and Williams, even with one of them being wholly unnecessary for the past 2 years. It's irrelevant anyway, since Maccagnan had been trying to trade Mo since he got here. He only gave Mo that contract after he was caught holding the hot potato.

You are twisting yourself into a pretzel to defend a GM that is unworthy of such defense. 

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one man. We're going in circles and it's clear we are both firm on our stances.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, Mogglez said:

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one man. We're going in circles and it's clear we are both firm on our stances.

Ah, crap.

I at least appreciate how long your replies have been. 

[detectivekimble]

Winters started off the year very good and then leveled off.  He graded out as average (No. 32) according to PFF.

This was his first year being fully healthy and playing his more natural position (RG), so there's a chance he'll continue getting better.  He played out of position his first two years, tore his ACL in his second year, and was not back to full strength until this year.

[Mogglez]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

Ah, crap.

Lol.  Still love you (as a poster, no homo), just don't see eye to eye on you with this one.  Respekt, 1Love, Yada, Yada, Yada.

[HighPitch]

12 hours ago, Mogglez said:

In what universe were there people clamoring for us to sign Brian Winters early last year because I wanna take whatever drugs bring you there. Sounds like a nice place. 

We were starting Willie Colon for half of last season and nothing Winters did said that he was gonna be a great lineman this year.  Hell, there were people who said we should go guard early in the draft.

This is very true.  We did nothing but bash the crap out of him.  The thought of suddenly overpaying would have been met with furor. 

Enuwa should however be dealt with now while he's  cheap

[Ex-Rex]

12 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Another marvelous job of not locking up a player when he still had a year left, when he'd have been half the cost to extend. 

Is he purposely trying to have every Jets player cost as much as possible? Because if that was his goal he'd need to change exactly none of his past actions. If he knew he wanted to re-sign Winters why on earth would he wait until after the season, when his risk of career-altering injury has been avoided (and therefore any discount right along with it)?

He is so terrible, and so incompetent, it's painful to witness as a fan.

I'm looking forward to no extension for Enunwa this year, and maybe not next year either, followed by an $11m/yr contract starting in 2018 instead of locking him up at close to half that today.

That has become problematic for sure. Macc needs to get guys locked up before they become FA's. I would sign Ijalana also. Draft a left tackle like Roderick Johnson in the second round. I like Fournette more and more with the sixth pick. Guy could be the Jets version of Eziekiel Elliott. 

[Sperm Edwards]

5 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

This is very true.  We did nothing but bash the crap out of him.  The thought of suddenly overpaying would have been met with furor. 

Enuwa should however be dealt with now while he's  cheap

Which is why, if we were going to entertain re-signing him, it should have been done a year ago.

[Sperm Edwards]

3 minutes ago, Ex-Rex said:

That has become problematic for sure. Macc needs to get guys locked up before they become FA's. I would sign Ijalana also. Draft a left tackle like Roderick Johnson in the second round. I like Fournette more and more with the sixth pick. Guy could be the Jets version of Eziekiel Elliott. 

I like the idea of bringing back Ijalana. Not to start, but because I'd like to see if Shell can make it through more than 4 starts when everyone else he's up against is banged up and tired from a long season. If he can't, the team can't just keep him out there no matter what because his backup is this year's 6th round draft pick.

Do not like the idea of a RB at #6.

[#27TheDominator]

7 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I like the idea of bringing back Ijalana. Not to start, but because I'd like to see if Shell can make it through more than 4 starts when everyone else he's up against is banged up and tired from a long season. If he can't, the team can't just keep him out there no matter what because his backup is this year's 6th round draft pick.

Do not like the idea of a RB at #6.

Iljalana is interesting to me.  He is in a similar spot to Powell coming into 2016 or Cromartie in 2015.  They were FAs, the Jets let them hit the market and they had no real takers. They signed cheap 1 year deals and played fairly well.  In Cromartie and Powell's cases, this somehow earned them fairly large scale contracts.  Iljalana is a lesser player, but proved he is a versatile backup and adequate spot starter.  I would certainly give him a deal to have him in camp, but it sure as sh*t had better be fairly light on the money.

[Bleedin Green]

I definitely agree with the concept of trying to lock guys up earlier, and not waiting until their contract is up, because that's the perfect recipe for losing and/or overpaying players.  With that said, you cannot reasonably be doing that for everyone, so I'm not going to hold it against the team every time.

For a guy like Winters, he's hardly anything special and has spent most of his Jets' career being a downgrade to Slauson, and is the kind of guy who can easily be considered a hold-the-fort type whom you'd still always be happy to upgrade.  That's not necessarily a reason to refuse to make him any sort of offer this offseason, but now is definitely not the time to get convinced to sign him to a big deal caused by potential bidding competition.  In that case, the Jets would be much better served signing the cheaper of the "solid vets" available, which is exactly what they did to get their best current OL in Carpenter.

Winters hasn't really shown enough that he was necessarily owed a contract last year.  However, if this becomes an ongoing trend with the other upcoming Jets FAs, then I certainly agree that's a problem.  Barring any serious drops in play, guys like Enunwa and Williams (who will never be had for cheap, but still) need to worked out well in advance, with a number of other possibilities if they continue to progress.

On a side note, regarding the brief discussion that come up about Cro, while his 2015 signing may not have gone so well, it's oh so sad to say that what he saw out of him that year was still worlds above the performance of any Jets DB this season.

[Beerfish]

The 'we should have signed winters last year' thought is massive hindsight, unless you can show me the huge volume of threads calling for this last off season.  Almost no one suggested that and the idea that you are going to get a mega discount to do so is not a lead pipe cinch.

The unfortunate reality is that lately most of our jets players have questions the year before their pay day year.  Wilkerson did, Winters did, Sheldon Richardson is well documented.  Richardson whether he is here or elsewhere will have a huge year next year because, though not bright, he does want the money and will have a monster year to get it.

If there is anyone on the roster we should try and lock up it is Leonard Willams who has been very good his 1st two years and the dog play of the others has not affected him.

 

[bostonmajet]

14 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm not getting worked up over Winters. I'm "worked up" over the GM waiting. If he has no interest in re-signing Winters I'm 100% fine with not extending him earlier. As you say, he isn't all that. But if he wants to re-sign him because he has enough holes to fill aside from RG, he should have known this before the season. 

Your rationale sounds good to fans that don't have to risk the team signing or drafting his replacement, and don't have to risk pre-FA injury. You could say "why should he take it?" about every young player, yet every year teams do lock up their younger players before they become free agents. Often young players turn down that early "cheap" offer and live to regret the decision.

sure, but they do turn it down. and, do we know if mac tried to sign him long term and it didn't work out? sometimes the player takes the cheap deal personally and gets offended (fitz). clearly they are being disrespected (revis). i personally don't think winters is that good and I would have liked them to move on. as far as getting stuck paying too much, i am not sure why most fans care. it isn't there money, there isn't likely going to be a huge contract that affects the cap; either way, macc seems to try and avoid getting locked in long term, so i can't imagine he was willing to lock in a player that he wasn't sure about. imo, winters is an average player, which means he should be easily replaceable at a reasonable price. also, i think RG is the cheapest and easiest to find position on the line.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, bostonmajet said:

sure, but they do turn it down. and, do we know if mac tried to sign him long term and it didn't work out? sometimes the player takes the cheap deal personally and gets offended (fitz). clearly they are being disrespected (revis). i personally don't think winters is that good and I would have liked them to move on. as far as getting stuck paying too much, i am not sure why most fans care. it isn't there money, there isn't likely going to be a huge contract that affects the cap; either way, macc seems to try and avoid getting locked in long term, so i can't imagine he was willing to lock in a player that he wasn't sure about. imo, winters is an average player, which means he should be easily replaceable at a reasonable price. also, i think RG is the cheapest and easiest to find position on the line.

Winters was a previously-failed draft pick who looked better in year 3 after Colon got injured. Not great, but certainly a good amount better. Had the Jets signed a must-start FA in March, or drafted a must-start-now guard at #20, what would have happened? Winters would have been relegated to the bench for his final contract year, to then hit free agency as a backup. It was a very real possibility for him, since he didn't have the career to show he'd accomplished anything.

Fitz, on the other hand, was a known quantity (for better or worse). Few denied he's a legit #2 QB, so if the Jets offer him nothing but #2 money it isn't much of a threat; he knows he can get that elsewhere. Fitz's situation was just far different. 

Maccagnan doesn't seem to avoid getting locked in long term any more than any other GM, for all praise he's given here in this regard. Few players in the NFL get a contract with more than 1-2 years of guaranteed money, so this is not some stroke of genius employed by just him. He did lock us into $6m for year 3 of Revis, so that's special. Also even though we "can get out of" Mo's contract, there's a similar cap penalty of a nearly 8-figure donut hole in that year 3 cap if we did.

RG is not the cheapest position on the line (for a good one, anyway). For a mediocre one, then RG becomes less than RT (where there's little cost difference between the very top and the median).

[#27TheDominator]

2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

The 'we should have signed winters last year' thought is massive hindsight, unless you can show me the huge volume of threads calling for this last off season.  Almost no one suggested that and the idea that you are going to get a mega discount to do so is not a lead pipe cinch.

The unfortunate reality is that lately most of our jets players have questions the year before their pay day year.  Wilkerson did, Winters did, Sheldon Richardson is well documented.  Richardson whether he is here or elsewhere will have a huge year next year because, though not bright, he does want the money and will have a monster year to get it.

If there is anyone on the roster we should try and lock up it is Leonard Willams who has been very good his 1st two years and the dog play of the others has not affected him.

 

We need a huge volume of threads to show that it was a good idea?  I am on record as suggesting they make a move on Enunwa this year.  Sperm just mentioned it too, is that enough?  

It is true that guys would not have necessarily accepted low ball deals, but extensions should be considered.  It seems obvious that guys like Powell and Cromartie (by Idzik, but don't get me started on that guy - extending Kerley so he wouldn't have his feelings hurt) probably should have had deals worked out rather than what happened which caused the team to end up spending more money to have them on the team.

Williams looks like a real player, but this is not the time to lock him up.  The fact is, he is already locked up for 2 more years with a third year that has a team option to pick up.  There are too many opportunities for injury or something to go wrong in that span. Since the team already has Wilkerson and is still carrying Richardson, there is very little reason to put more investment into the Dline.  

[Big Blocker]

2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

The 'we should have signed winters last year' thought is massive hindsight, unless you can show me the huge volume of threads calling for this last off season.  Almost no one suggested that and the idea that you are going to get a mega discount to do so is not a lead pipe cinch.

The unfortunate reality is that lately most of our jets players have questions the year before their pay day year.  Wilkerson did, Winters did, Sheldon Richardson is well documented.  Richardson whether he is here or elsewhere will have a huge year next year because, though not bright, he does want the money and will have a monster year to get it.

If there is anyone on the roster we should try and lock up it is Leonard Willams who has been very good his 1st two years and the dog play of the others has not affected him.

 

I agree I don't recall a lot of Jet fans arguing that the FO should have done something last off season to redo his contract.  But the point only carries you up to a point.  No one here is paid to be the GM for the Jets.  The man who is the GM is paid to look ahead at such situations and make the right call.  Thus while it is true that we can't accuse of Macc of failing to see what many Jet fans saw, he can still be criticized.

 

As for Winters right now I get the sentiment he's not worth a great deal of money, but it will be problematic to upgrade the OL if he leaves given Mangold's contract and that both starting tackles could very well be gone.

[EM31]

19 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

I agree. Our fans think offering half in an ever-increasing market is viable... because the Jets hometown discount? Or all the championships? 

 

How else will we ever manage to overpay properly for Revis' next contract?

[sirlancemehlot]

23 hours ago, Mogglez said:

Whether he started 8 or 10 games last year has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that no one wanted Winters after his little showcase, making your entire point of locking him up last offseason irrelevant. The team took a gamble starting him this season and he took a giant leap THIS YEAR.  Why in the world do you think he would have taken a cheap contact mid-season, knowing damn well he could make a killing on the open market?

I actually have supported Winters from the beginning.  People were quick to label him a bust but that's just ridiculous.  It takes a few years to develop a decent lineman and Winters had all the tools, and was solid in run blocking from very beginning.  He has a wrestling background which speaks to his strength and agility and he's the fiestiest Olineman we have now that Colon is gone.  Not everyone thought he was garbage (past posts will back me up), but Mac obviously wasn't concerned enough to make him an offer even knowing that the Line has no depth, lost D'brick, Mangold is long in the tooth, Breno has chronic back issues and the rest of the guys are patchwork JAGS.  Maybe using a little foresight could have helped matters.

[sirlancemehlot]

The "let Winters walk" crowd...LOL.  Are you suggesting we dump a player that we actually drafted and developed at a position of need when we literally are rebuilding the entire line from scratch?  It never ceases to amaze me how many fans devalue offensive lineman, probably because they don't catch passes or get sneaker commercials, yet rave about teams with great OL's.  remember when we had a really good Oline guys?  Those two AFCCG seasons with Mark Sanchez at the helm?  Pepperidge Farm remembers.

[ScarletKnight89]

Winters has quietly turned himself into a quality guard. He's certainly upgradeable but the Jets have a lot of holes to fill on the O-Line and they aren't going to be able to do it all in one off season. I'd be totally fine with keeping Winters, hopefully restructuring Mangold or going with Johnson, and having one of them with Winters and Carpenter lock down the interior of the line while we address the tackle spots this off season. Then maybe eventually upgrade at center and Winters position down the line. You can't do everything in one off season.

[Sperm Edwards]

47 minutes ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

Winters has quietly turned himself into a quality guard. He's certainly upgradeable but the Jets have a lot of holes to fill on the O-Line and they aren't going to be able to do it all in one off season. I'd be totally fine with keeping Winters, hopefully restructuring Mangold or going with Johnson, and having one of them with Winters and Carpenter lock down the interior of the line while we address the tackle spots this off season. Then maybe eventually upgrade at center and Winters position down the line. You can't do everything in one off season.

Yeah, I think he's ok. Not great, and not someone from whom we couldn't clearly upgrade, but no one is saying he is either. Likewise, he isn't nearly the disaster he was early on, when he got tossed out there ready or not, and clearly wasn't.

The distressing part with him wasn't looking bad as a rookie, but rather it was his looking bad as a 2nd yr player with a year starting under his belt.

Based on his first 4 yrs, he's not likely going to ever be the rock on the line that makes the whole thing work, but he probably wouldn't be the one that makes 4 otherwise top-notch linemen look collectively bad either. So he'll need help when he's got to handle a Suh type. BFD.

He should have been extended through 2019 already, at under $3m with low guarantees, after the 2015 season. I believe that's also when he was first eligible for an extension anyway, despite people denouncing a make-believe suggestion that it's "hindsight" that we didn't extend him after 2014 (which was never once suggested).

[peebag]

15 hours ago, sirlancemehlot said:

The "let Winters walk" crowd...LOL.  Are you suggesting we dump a player that we actually drafted and developed at a position of need when we literally are rebuilding the entire line from scratch?  It never ceases to amaze me how many fans devalue offensive lineman, probably because they don't catch passes or get sneaker commercials, yet rave about teams with great OL's.  remember when we had a really good Oline guys?  Those two AFCCG seasons with Mark Sanchez at the helm?  Pepperidge Farm remembers.

No - I'm saying don't overpay for a below grade player.

[thadude]

Sign Andrew Whitworth and AQ Shipley to be our new LT and Center.  Let Dozier and Qvale compete for Right Guard

[LIJetsFan]

fwiw:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-this-season/

21. New York Jets (24)

Top overall grade: LG James Carpenter, 83.0 (No. 17)

Top pass-blocking grade: LG James Carpenter, 88.1 (No. 10)

Top run-blocking grade: LG James Carpenter, 76.1 (No. 29)

The one bright spot on this line was the play of LG James Carpenter, who has successfully resurrected his career after bombing out of Seattle as a disaster. He has put together back-to-back solid seasons as a Jet, and this year, was even good as a pass protector for the first time in his career. Carpenter allowed just two sacks and three penalties, and was solid as a run blocker—but that’s about where the good news for this unit ends. Of the other starters, the best play from them was pretty average, with RG Brian Winters (77.1 overall grade) at least holding his own, even if he wasn’t consistently winning his blocks. Both tackle spots were a problem for the team all season, with Ben Ijalana allowing eight sacks on the year and Ryan Clady looking like a shadow of his best play. One game against the hapless 49ers aside, C Wesley Johnson struggled in relief of Nick Mangold, who played just 433 snaps before injury struck.

 

note: Brandon Shell:  82 conseuctive pass snaps without a pressure, per PFF

[BurnleyJet]

16 minutes ago, LIJetsFan said:

fwiw:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-ranking-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-this-season/

21. New York Jets (24)

Top overall grade: LG James Carpenter, 83.0 (No. 17)

Top pass-blocking grade: LG James Carpenter, 88.1 (No. 10)

Top run-blocking grade: LG James Carpenter, 76.1 (No. 29)

The one bright spot on this line was the play of LG James Carpenter, who has successfully resurrected his career after bombing out of Seattle as a disaster. He has put together back-to-back solid seasons as a Jet, and this year, was even good as a pass protector for the first time in his career. Carpenter allowed just two sacks and three penalties, and was solid as a run blocker—but that’s about where the good news for this unit ends. Of the other starters, the best play from them was pretty average, with RG Brian Winters (77.1 overall grade) at least holding his own, even if he wasn’t consistently winning his blocks. Both tackle spots were a problem for the team all season, with Ben Ijalana allowing eight sacks on the year and Ryan Clady looking like a shadow of his best play. One game against the hapless 49ers aside, C Wesley Johnson struggled in relief of Nick Mangold, who played just 433 snaps before injury struck.

 

note: Brandon Shell:  82 conseuctive pass snaps without a pressure, per PFF

Shell looks like he maybe worth giving up that 4th, in this years Draft.