Ugh. Just read about Todd Heap...

[Lil Woody]

He ran over his own daughter by accident in his driveway with his truck. How can anyone ever recover from something like that? Horrible.

[joewilly12]

This is a tragedy may God help him heal someway somehow sad sad story. 

[JetPotato]

Just the worst. I can't even imagine. Hope he's able to find some way to cope.

[Fantasy Island]

Just a terrible situation.  I couldn't imagine.

[sourceworx]

Awful. I don't know if I'd ever be able to forgive myself. 

Just....awful.

[JiFtheOracle]

This is one of those times you just dont have the words.

What an awful tragedy.   

[The Crusher]

Just now, JiF said:

This is one of those times you just dont have the words.

What an awful tragedy.   

I heard this yesterday and couldn't stop thinking about it.  Just beyond horrible. 

[DetroitRed]

Honestly, if that was me , I think I would swallow a bullet.

God bless





Sent from my iPad using JetNation.com mobile app

[Mike135]

Damn.  

Good argument for requiring backup cameras, sensors and systems to stop the car automatically on all cars.

[Maxman]

49 minutes ago, Mike135 said:

Damn.  

Good argument for requiring backup cameras, sensors and systems to stop the car automatically on all cars.

I read he was driving forward.

[chirorob]

12 hours ago, Lil Woody said:

He ran over his own daughter by accident in his driveway with his truck. How can anyone ever recover from something like that? Horrible.

As a Dad, there is nothing worse I can imagine.

[Mike135]

1 minute ago, Maxman said:

I read he was driving forward.

Well I think the sensors/systems would stop the car regardless of whether you're going forward or reverse.

Tons of commercials showing cars stopping on a dime to avoid a pedestrian or other car.

Suppose you'd only have to put in an override switch in case you wanted to push something or even push through a crowd (like all the kids today and their riots trying to stop traffic).

Anyone have a car with the new systems?  Would it have helped in this situation?

[ChuckkieB]

This is brutal and the worst pain imaginable for a parent.  I don't know how I would be able to go on after this.

[HessStation]

There's nothing I could wish enough for him. Thoughts and prayers aren't enough. 

I think I would have to give my life away to some other cause. Move to Africa and fight poachers in the bush or head into Syria to help save children or something. 

[Mike135]

11 minutes ago, HessStation said:

There's nothing I could wish enough for him. Thoughts and prayers aren't enough. 

I think I would have to give my life away to some other cause. Move to Africa and fight poachers in the bush or head into Syria to help save children or something. 

If that was his only kid, maybe?  But ya gotta figure/hope his responsibility to his other kids will overcome the grief.

A drastic change like that would just be weak/selfish while he has others relying on him.

[BroadwayRay]

1 hour ago, Mike135 said:

Well I think the sensors/systems would stop the car regardless of whether you're going forward or reverse.

Tons of commercials showing cars stopping on a dime to avoid a pedestrian or other car.

Suppose you'd only have to put in an override switch in case you wanted to push something or even push through a crowd (like all the kids today and their riots trying to stop traffic).

Anyone have a car with the new systems?  Would it have helped in this situation?

These types of accidents are horrific and, unfortunately, they happen more often than we'd like to image. In a lot of cases the child is outside playing right up against the tire. The person gets in the vehicle and has no idea. I knew someone that this happened to in NJ about 30 years ago. The point here it is to please be very careful in a vehicle if you know there are small children outside playing.

[Mike135]

1 minute ago, BroadwayRay said:

These types of accidents are horrific and, unfortunately, they happen more often than we'd like to image. In a lot of cases the child is outside playing right up against the tire. The person gets in the vehicle and has no idea. I knew someone that this happened to in NJ about 30 years ago. The point here it is to please be very careful in a vehicle if you know there are small children outside playing.

Of course be careful.  But human error will always happen.

So while it's always natural to say something like, "I'll pray for them", even if you're not religious.  Better yet would be to try and help the situation.  Make sure your next car has one of those obstacle avoidance systems.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, Mike135 said:

Damn.  

Good argument for requiring backup cameras, sensors and systems to stop the car automatically on all cars.

1. As Max said, he was driving forward. This is just about the worst thing imaginable for any parent. As others have said, I don't know how Heap ever emotionally recovers from this. 

2. The requirement is already in place, and it goes in effect for all cars built as of May 1, 2018. 

3. The problems with backup cameras (despite their obvious benefits):

• Many - perhaps most - people become lazy with these cameras: they cease also looking around by turning their heads both ways 100% of the time, and exclusively stare at the tiny dashboard display from the backup camera (where they previously used all 3 rear-view mirrors and turned their heads). Sadly, there are plenty of these preventable tragedies despite the presence of a backup camera (because the driver became too reliant upon that little dashboard screen and stopped using their side view mirrors, let alone turn their heads left & right).


• Even when the camera lens is dirty, and the driver's view is partially obscured as a result, I'm sure many still stupidly rely upon them.


• For some, adding a camera/screen creates too many things to view all together (rear view camera, rear view mirror, left mirror, right mirror). Especially with a lower-view screen on the dashboard that necessarily takes the driver's gaze below the windshield. Law of unintended consequences.


• Allegedly there is a net-benefit (though the last-published data I could find is several years old): that starting about 40 years from now there will be a total net benefit of about 60 lives saved/year (though they didn't say if they were normalizing for expected population growth). I'm certainly not trying to argue a nominal number peoples' lives don't matter - and most backup/backover accidents don't result in death - but the data comparing benefits with and without is very strained, is pretty nonspecific as it groups all such accidents together, and will necessarily have a decent-sized margin of error, in large part because there (thankfully) aren't thousands of such backup deaths per year to sub-divide the data. Typically the studies just look at total rates over time as more cars carry these devices, curiously without comparing percentages of incidence with/without such devices; so they do take liberties in these conclusions. It may be less dramatic than they think (and in fairness, it may be even more dramatic). 


• I haven't seen any evidence that shows any statistical net-benefit in regular passenger cars (as opposed to some trucks, extra-large SUVs, & vans that render a windshield's rear-view mirror useless); nor published data that compares rear camera screen location (dashboard-screens vs rearview mirror that keep the driver's eyes up); no rear camera data that accounts for taller vs shorter drivers (shorter drivers have a smaller field of view); tinted rear windows vs clear; clean vs dirty cars/windows/cameras; other factors.


• If you tell me you want to target-require them, specifically in trucks with no windshield-mount rearview mirror at all, or in larger/full-size SUVs or vans where one can barely see out the back (and certainly can't see things/kids close to the ground behind the vehicle using a windshield-rearview mirror), then I'm all for it. Statistically, like 2/3 of these types of backup accidents are in oversized vehicles despite those being a minority of the vehicles on the road. So, as useful as they can be - and should be - in conjunction with mirrors and using one's neck, it's very possible there is (statistically) no net beneficial gain in passenger cars that have them installed. Also because they're even newer, no data yet on comparing 360-degree cameras (one mounted on each side of the car); they're pretty impressive if you've never seen one.

Anyway it's just sad all around. The best prevention is to be aware/alert, and pay attention all the time when backing up, even when you're running late. Camera or no, too many people just aren't devoting enough attention to their surroundings, even when backing up. Successfully correcting such careless behavior will help more than a rear camera requirement.

[Mike135]

3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

1. As Max said ...

I'm not just talking about cameras.  I agree those by themselves are helpful, but can lead to other problems like complacency.

I'm talking sensors and systems that stop the car or prevent it from moving unless purposely overridden somehow with a switch of some sort.

[Ken Schroy]

I read about it last week and I was going to post it, but it was just so depressing, I passed. Thoughts and prayers to Todd and his family.

[HessStation]

This really is so beyond horrific. There really are no words to properly express.

[Brady's a catcher]

14 hours ago, JetPotato said:

Just the worst. I can't even imagine. Hope he's able to find some way to cope.

Me too, for sure. I just don't see how you ever come back from that. I mean, I can't even imagine, it's just so profoundly tragic.

[prime21]

Prayers and strength to the Heap family over this unimaginable devastating loss.

[Maxman]

3 hours ago, Mike135 said:

Well I think the sensors/systems would stop the car regardless of whether you're going forward or reverse.

Tons of commercials showing cars stopping on a dime to avoid a pedestrian or other car.

Suppose you'd only have to put in an override switch in case you wanted to push something or even push through a crowd (like all the kids today and their riots trying to stop traffic).

Anyone have a car with the new systems?  Would it have helped in this situation?

Well the car companies seem to believe that accidents and the mortality rate go way down once self driving cars are the norm. So no argument there from me.

[jetophile]

It happens more often than people know. Cars, lawn-mowers, snow plows, you name it. I don't necessarily know if cameras are the answer.  Highly responsible people turn their heads for two seconds and tragedy strikes. A kid can drown in an inch of water. Sometimes your number is just up at the deli counter, but this sh it is just wrong, and it's so upsetting.

Probably the most singularly awful thing that has ever happened to people that I personally know was friends losing their 10 mo. old baby in a house fire. And the baby didn't die of smoke inhalation. I'll never be able to get that thought out of my mind, as in never, never, never, never - and I do mean never.  So, people can visit what we're not supposed to talk about, but you've gotta be fukking sh itting me.

My friend was confused by all the smoke, grabbed the two other kids, and because she was disoriented, didn't grab the baby first.  She went to run back in, and the place went up like a blowtorch. She had to be tackled on the lawn. I only went there to offer condolences on what it's like living with something like this, and the only way to not die from guilt is to try to find a way to forgive yourself. 

Todd Heap is going to need all of the help that's out there, and I do believe if you cast a net in to the universe you might get an answer . . . but probably not. The moral of the story is, in the end, you have to rely on what works for you and gives you strength. There are no atheists in foxholes, and I feel really sad for him. What a terrible thing. RIP, little one. 

 

 

 

[Brady's a catcher]

23 minutes ago, jetophile said:

It happens more often than people know. Cars, lawn-mowers, snow plows, you name it. I don't necessarily know if cameras are the answer.  Highly responsible people turn their heads for two seconds and tragedy strikes. A kid can drown in an inch of water. Sometimes your number is just up at the deli counter, but this sh it is just wrong, and it's so upsetting.

Probably the most singularly awful thing that has ever happened to people that I personally know was friends losing their 10 mo. old baby in a house fire. And the baby didn't die of smoke inhalation. I'll never be able to get that thought out of my mind, as in never, never, never, never - and I do mean never.  So, people can visit what we're not supposed to talk about, but you've gotta be fukking sh itting me.

My friend was confused by all the smoke, grabbed the two other kids, and because she was disoriented, didn't grab the baby first.  She went to run back in, and the place went up like a blowtorch. She had to be tackled on the lawn. I only went there to offer condolences on what it's like living with something like this, and the only way to not die from guilt is to try to find a way to forgive yourself. 

Todd Heap is going to need all of the help that's out there, and I do believe if you cast a net in to the universe you might get an answer . . . but probably not. The moral of the story is, in the end, you have to rely on what works for you and gives you strength. There are no atheists in foxholes, and I feel really sad for him. What a terrible thing. RIP, little one. 

 

 

 

God damn, that quite literally made my skin crawl. I just don't think I could survive something like that. 

[chirorob]

2 hours ago, Ken Shroy said:

I read about it last week and I was going to post it, but it was just so depressing, I passed. Thoughts and prayers to Todd and his family.

Me too.

Cameras, whatever else helps.   Sometimes, little kids just do stuff that defy description.  My youngest son tried to run in front of my car, I had to make a rule, I would not move the truck unless I could physically see him.  I'm not saying I'm better than Heap, or that he did anything wrong.  Kids do stuff that defies description.   My oldest, when he was about 1, had a burning desire to stick his thumb in his mouth and put it in an outlet.   They all had covers, he would sit there and try to pry them off.

 

 

[rangerous]

4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

1. As Max said, he was driving forward. This is just about the worst thing imaginable for any parent. As others have said, I don't know how Heap ever emotionally recovers from this. 

2. The requirement is already in place, and it goes in effect for all cars built as of May 1, 2018. 

3. The problems with backup cameras (despite their obvious benefits):

• Many - perhaps most - people become lazy with these cameras: they cease also looking around by turning their heads both ways 100% of the time, and exclusively stare at the tiny dashboard display from the backup camera (where they previously used all 3 rear-view mirrors and turned their heads). Sadly, there are plenty of these preventable tragedies despite the presence of a backup camera (because the driver became too reliant upon that little dashboard screen and stopped using their side view mirrors, let alone turn their heads left & right).


• Even when the camera lens is dirty, and the driver's view is partially obscured as a result, I'm sure many still stupidly rely upon them.


• For some, adding a camera/screen creates too many things to view all together (rear view camera, rear view mirror, left mirror, right mirror). Especially with a lower-view screen on the dashboard that necessarily takes the driver's gaze below the windshield. Law of unintended consequences.


• Allegedly there is a net-benefit (though the last-published data I could find is several years old): that starting about 40 years from now there will be a total net benefit of about 60 lives saved/year (though they didn't say if they were normalizing for expected population growth). I'm certainly not trying to argue a nominal number peoples' lives don't matter - and most backup/backover accidents don't result in death - but the data comparing benefits with and without is very strained, is pretty nonspecific as it groups all such accidents together, and will necessarily have a decent-sized margin of error, in large part because there (thankfully) aren't thousands of such backup deaths per year to sub-divide the data. Typically the studies just look at total rates over time as more cars carry these devices, curiously without comparing percentages of incidence with/without such devices; so they do take liberties in these conclusions. It may be less dramatic than they think (and in fairness, it may be even more dramatic). 


• I haven't seen any evidence that shows any statistical net-benefit in regular passenger cars (as opposed to some trucks, extra-large SUVs, & vans that render a windshield's rear-view mirror useless); nor published data that compares rear camera screen location (dashboard-screens vs rearview mirror that keep the driver's eyes up); no rear camera data that accounts for taller vs shorter drivers (shorter drivers have a smaller field of view); tinted rear windows vs clear; clean vs dirty cars/windows/cameras; other factors.


• If you tell me you want to target-require them, specifically in trucks with no windshield-mount rearview mirror at all, or in larger/full-size SUVs or vans where one can barely see out the back (and certainly can't see things/kids close to the ground behind the vehicle using a windshield-rearview mirror), then I'm all for it. Statistically, like 2/3 of these types of backup accidents are in oversized vehicles despite those being a minority of the vehicles on the road. So, as useful as they can be - and should be - in conjunction with mirrors and using one's neck, it's very possible there is (statistically) no net beneficial gain in passenger cars that have them installed. Also because they're even newer, no data yet on comparing 360-degree cameras (one mounted on each side of the car); they're pretty impressive if you've never seen one.

Anyway it's just sad all around. The best prevention is to be aware/alert, and pay attention all the time when backing up, even when you're running late. Camera or no, too many people just aren't devoting enough attention to their surroundings, even when backing up. Successfully correcting such careless behavior will help more than a rear camera requirement.

nice write up. i couldn't agree more.  especially about how people get get too dependent on the technology and less on their own eyes and ears.

[Sperm Edwards]

3 minutes ago, rangerous said:

nice write up. i couldn't agree more.  especially about how people get get too dependent on the technology and less on their own eyes and ears.

Yeah, it's like when I was younger - and almost everyone had RWD or FWD - we all drove slow in the snow or heavy rain or poor conditions in general. Now since so many cars have AWD people drive like there's always dry pavement even in such poor road conditions.

What should be purely great lifesaving assets, however unintended, also lead some/many into false senses of security into irresponsible or lazy driving.

Not saying that's what happened here, but the simple/easy solution isn't always so simple. 

[TuscanyTile2]

1 hour ago, chirorob said:

Me too.

Cameras, whatever else helps.   Sometimes, little kids just do stuff that defy description.  My youngest son tried to run in front of my car, I had to make a rule, I would not move the truck unless I could physically see him.  I'm not saying I'm better than Heap, or that he did anything wrong.  Kids do stuff that defies description.   My oldest, when he was about 1, had a burning desire to stick his thumb in his mouth and put it in an outlet.   They all had covers, he would sit there and try to pry them off.

 

 

Be careful about light bulb sockets too btw. 

[chirorob]

11 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Be careful about light bulb sockets too btw. 

That one is 14 now.   If he does it again, I wash my hands.

[NoBowles]

5 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

1. As Max said, he was driving forward. This is just about the worst thing imaginable for any parent. As others have said, I don't know how Heap ever emotionally recovers from this. 

2. The requirement is already in place, and it goes in effect for all cars built as of May 1, 2018. 

3. The problems with backup cameras (despite their obvious benefits):

• Many - perhaps most - people become lazy with these cameras: they cease also looking around by turning their heads both ways 100% of the time, and exclusively stare at the tiny dashboard display from the backup camera (where they previously used all 3 rear-view mirrors and turned their heads). Sadly, there are plenty of these preventable tragedies despite the presence of a backup camera (because the driver became too reliant upon that little dashboard screen and stopped using their side view mirrors, let alone turn their heads left & right).


• Even when the camera lens is dirty, and the driver's view is partially obscured as a result, I'm sure many still stupidly rely upon them.


• For some, adding a camera/screen creates too many things to view all together (rear view camera, rear view mirror, left mirror, right mirror). Especially with a lower-view screen on the dashboard that necessarily takes the driver's gaze below the windshield. Law of unintended consequences.


• Allegedly there is a net-benefit (though the last-published data I could find is several years old): that starting about 40 years from now there will be a total net benefit of about 60 lives saved/year (though they didn't say if they were normalizing for expected population growth). I'm certainly not trying to argue a nominal number peoples' lives don't matter - and most backup/backover accidents don't result in death - but the data comparing benefits with and without is very strained, is pretty nonspecific as it groups all such accidents together, and will necessarily have a decent-sized margin of error, in large part because there (thankfully) aren't thousands of such backup deaths per year to sub-divide the data. Typically the studies just look at total rates over time as more cars carry these devices, curiously without comparing percentages of incidence with/without such devices; so they do take liberties in these conclusions. It may be less dramatic than they think (and in fairness, it may be even more dramatic). 


• I haven't seen any evidence that shows any statistical net-benefit in regular passenger cars (as opposed to some trucks, extra-large SUVs, & vans that render a windshield's rear-view mirror useless); nor published data that compares rear camera screen location (dashboard-screens vs rearview mirror that keep the driver's eyes up); no rear camera data that accounts for taller vs shorter drivers (shorter drivers have a smaller field of view); tinted rear windows vs clear; clean vs dirty cars/windows/cameras; other factors.


• If you tell me you want to target-require them, specifically in trucks with no windshield-mount rearview mirror at all, or in larger/full-size SUVs or vans where one can barely see out the back (and certainly can't see things/kids close to the ground behind the vehicle using a windshield-rearview mirror), then I'm all for it. Statistically, like 2/3 of these types of backup accidents are in oversized vehicles despite those being a minority of the vehicles on the road. So, as useful as they can be - and should be - in conjunction with mirrors and using one's neck, it's very possible there is (statistically) no net beneficial gain in passenger cars that have them installed. Also because they're even newer, no data yet on comparing 360-degree cameras (one mounted on each side of the car); they're pretty impressive if you've never seen one.

Anyway it's just sad all around. The best prevention is to be aware/alert, and pay attention all the time when backing up, even when you're running late. Camera or no, too many people just aren't devoting enough attention to their surroundings, even when backing up. Successfully correcting such careless behavior will help more than a rear camera requirement.

I have a Tesla with Auto Pilot 2 hardware and software, so its arguably the most sophisticated car in this regard on the planet. The other day, I almost hit my dog pulling into my driveway with all the sensors going off, and the reason is every time I pull into my driveway, all of my sensors start going off because its a tight fit, so I am immune to them. My dog somehow went right in front of my car without me seeing him, and my sensors were going off and I ignored them as I always do and kept going forward, because I know how much room I have in my garage, or so I thought. If not for my daughter coming flying out screaming I was about to him him, he would have gotten hurt really bad or killed. I can see how something like what happened to Todd Heap even with the most incredible tech incorporated. So tragic and sad what happened, as a parent, you can never, ever recover from something like that.

[Sperm Edwards]

31 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

I have a Tesla with Auto Pilot 2 hardware and software, so its arguably the most sophisticated car in this regard on the planet. The other day, I almost hit my dog pulling into my driveway with all the sensors going off, and the reason is every time I pull into my driveway, all of my sensors start going off because its a tight fit, so I am immune to them. My dog somehow went right in front of my car without me seeing him, and my sensors were going off and I ignored them as I always do and kept going forward, because I know how much room I have in my garage, or so I thought. If not for my daughter coming flying out screaming I was about to him him, he would have gotten hurt really bad or killed. I can see how something like what happened to Todd Heap even with the most incredible tech incorporated. So tragic and sad what happened, as a parent, you can never, ever recover from something like that.

Lucky. But it speaks to my point. In a familiar surrounding you're used to certain false positives, so you're going to be oblivious to an actual positive.

Not finding fault with Heap (certainly based on the info released). It's convenient to say he should know where his kid is at all times; while that's true, he could have just seen his kid inside (or at a safe enough distance, with the kid's mom) 15-30 seconds earlier, and didn't realize he was on the run 1 second later. Anyone pretending they always get out of the car to walk around it after starting the car, and/or call inside to the Mrs. to see if the 2 yr old is still inside with her 20 seconds after you just saw them, every time you're about to move the car, is a liar. 

Beyond that, you're a parent so you be as careful as you reasonably can be. Relying on a gadget to see/react to all for you is asking for trouble.

[Jets0712]

Just horrible,prayers to the heap family


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app