Michael Jordan Documentary: "The Last Dance"

[Maxman]

On 4/20/2020 at 8:02 AM, KRL said:

As a Knick fan Jordan caused way too much pain!!!  But watching that show
made me really appreciate his mentality as an athlete.  Today everyone
kisses up to their opponents and never demands excellence from their
teammates.  It was refreshing to see Jordan "hate" his opponents and demand
his teammates to give their best at all times.  On top of that it was nice
to remember how Jordan dressed (like an actual adult/professional) which 
puts to shame these "clown outfits" of today

Jordan was great when Isiah Thomas came up. He wouldn't lie.

[TuscanyTile2]

On 4/21/2020 at 10:14 AM, nycdan said:

I would say watch this video and accept that passes like this happened multiple times every game with him.  Freaking Sonar.  I hated him SO much back then.  Now I realize that was the last time I truly loved watching NBA games.  

 

As a Knicks fan I hated him back been then too.  These days, I have nothing but appreciation for how incredible of a player he was.  

[TuscanyTile2]

5 hours ago, Maxman said:

Jordan was great when Isiah Thomas came up. He wouldn't lie.

Yep, still said he’s the 2nd greatest guard (behind Magic) even though he (obviously) doesn’t like the guy.

And MJ did shake hands with the Pistons the 2 straight years they beat him so he was a class act there, too. 

[chirorob]

On 4/21/2020 at 9:21 AM, Jethead said:

Different game I guess, but the best player I ever saw was Wilt the Stilt.

The game changes, also, there is just so much less video on Wilt.  You here about people needing days off now, and rest.   Wilt has seasons where he played every game, and averaged over 48 minutes per game (OT games).

The biggest reason I take Jordan over Lebron or anyone else right now, he was tougher.  He had to fight to get past the Bad Boys, he had to fight to get past the Celts.   The Knicks tried to take a page from Detroit and beat on him as well.   Lebron has NEVER been hit like that.

[themeangreenkillingmachine]

On 4/20/2020 at 11:20 AM, chirorob said:

You had the great rivalries, and players stayed for the most part.  Players have more power now, and good for them, but they move around and re-arrange themselves.

Jordan on the Bulls.   Patrick on the Knicks.   Reggie on the Pacers.   Stockton and Malone.  Hakeem in Houston.   Going at it back and forth for years, it was great.

Now the “back and forth” and “rivalries” on the court can be found on “twitter”

[rangerous]

never liked jordan that much and liked the bulls even less.  there was just too much hype surrounding that team starting with phil jackson.  when he actually had to do some work, like building the knicks, he failed miserably.  couldn't have happened to a nicer person with the exception of isiah thomas.  basketball players and teams are a little hard to figure.  stern is the one who wanted the superstars in his league.  it was all hype so guys like jordan, who travelled on every play, got their move.  it's awful tough to compete against guys who flaunt the rules.  jets fans can sympathize.

but jordan was still a really great player.  he was much better at defense than he has been credit for. and he was certainly better spoken than the thugs who started coming into the nbs.  maybe the worm will turn again and the nba will become watchable.

[rangerous]

1 hour ago, chirorob said:

The game changes, also, there is just so much less video on Wilt.  You here about people needing days off now, and rest.   Wilt has seasons where he played every game, and averaged over 48 minutes per game (OT games).

The biggest reason I take Jordan over Lebron or anyone else right now, he was tougher.  He had to fight to get past the Bad Boys, he had to fight to get past the Celts.   The Knicks tried to take a page from Detroit and beat on him as well.   Lebron has NEVER been hit like that.

imo, wilt could've been the best player ever.  he just didn't seem to have the winner mentality that his contemporaries had, particularly russell.  there's a reason why russell won those titles against the wilt teams.  make no mistake, the wilt 76ers and russell celtic teams were both loaded so it's not like you can say red auerbach was somehow cheating when filling out the team.

[jetscrazey]

The NBA needs to legalize playing defense again.  The last 20 years just haven't been as fun as the 90s.  They changed the defensive rules circa 2000 because scoring = ratings.  But the quality of the game has suffered.

[CTJetsFan]

23 minutes ago, jetscrazey said:

The NBA needs to legalize playing defense again.  The last 20 years just haven't been as fun as the 90s.  They changed the defensive rules circa 2000 because scoring = ratings.  But the quality of the game has suffered.

100%

I loved the "No autopsy, no foul" defense the Knicks and Pistons played.

 

[PS17]

30 minutes ago, jetscrazey said:

The NBA needs to legalize playing defense again.  The last 20 years just haven't been as fun as the 90s.  They changed the defensive rules circa 2000 because scoring = ratings.  But the quality of the game has suffered.

Same trajectory as the NFL. Both games were significantly better before the “you can’t touch the offensive player” rules. 

[Warfish]

Jordan is the greatest player who ever lived, but liek so many other "greatest players", Tiger, Brady, they're just not very likable people IMO.  Something about that ultra-competitive nature must make you a real dick of a person to be around most of the time.

[TuscanyTile2]

3 hours ago, chirorob said:

The game changes, also, there is just so much less video on Wilt.  You here about people needing days off now, and rest.   Wilt has seasons where he played every game, and averaged over 48 minutes per game (OT games).

The biggest reason I take Jordan over Lebron or anyone else right now, he was tougher.  He had to fight to get past the Bad Boys, he had to fight to get past the Celts.   The Knicks tried to take a page from Detroit and beat on him as well.   Lebron has NEVER been hit like that.

Just like Montana took hits that Brady never had to.  (Though I still think, at worst, Brady is tied for the GOAT).

[BallinPB]

4 hours ago, rangerous said:

imo, wilt could've been the best player ever.  he just didn't seem to have the winner mentality that his contemporaries had, particularly russell.  there's a reason why russell won those titles against the wilt teams.  make no mistake, the wilt 76ers and russell celtic teams were both loaded so it's not like you can say red auerbach was somehow cheating when filling out the team.

Unfortunately Wilt and Russell both played in the era where the talent was very mediocre around them.  It's obvious when you look at old games from him and Wilt just catches the pass and turns around to lay the ball in the hoop without much defense from the opposition.   I think that plays into why most people don't consider him in the top 5 greatest players to ever play the game.  

The stats are impressive obviously when he averaged 50 pts and 25 rebounds per game one season but in the first half of his career he was playing against guys that shouldve been bagging groceries.  As his career went on and talent/athleticism grew as the NBA grew more popular, his scoring dropped significantly.  

 

[chirorob]

3 hours ago, Warfish said:

Jordan is the greatest player who ever lived, but liek so many other "greatest players", Tiger, Brady, they're just not very likable people IMO.  Something about that ultra-competitive nature must make you a real dick of a person to be around most of the time.

They can't turn it off.   When you are that competitive, you are always like that.   You always have to get your way, and people bend over backwards for them.

[King P]

Michael Jordan is the greatest NBA player of all time.

But when you take into account his college and high school accolades, I actually think Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the greatest basketball player ever

[Philc1]

52 minutes ago, King P said:

Michael Jordan is the greatest NBA player of all time.

But when you take into account his college and high school accolades, I actually think Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the greatest basketball player ever

Lebron

[Titan24]

43 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Lebron

As a young knicks fan at the time of the bulls run I just remember hating when Michael touched the ball at important moments of playoff games.  Guy never made mistakes, hit the shot, got fouled and I don’t think he ever missed a huge free throw.

never got that feeling w lebron and he’s great just not michael great 

[HawkeyeJet]

I think an equally intriguing debate regarding this documentary is the legacy of Scottie Pippen.

My friend and I have a very passionate back and forth going.  I am of the belief that Pippen is vastly overrated and is probably the 7th or 8th best player of his era at best.  My friend thinks Pippen is one of the top 25 best players to ever play the game.  

[14 in Green]

1 hour ago, Philc1 said:

Lebron

I know you love hoops, and you know the game. I’m not going to knock you for taking Lebron. There’s no right or wrong answer. I’m curious though if it’s generation bias.

Do you mind me asking how old you are? If you don’t want to answer that’s okay. Just tell me if you were old enough to see Magic, Bird and Jordan from the start of their careers.

[14 in Green]

25 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I think an equally intriguing debate regarding this documentary is the legacy of Scottie Pippen.

My friend and I have a very passionate back and forth going.  I am of the belief that Pippen is vastly overrated and is probably the 7th or 8th best player of his era at best.  My friend thinks Pippen is one of the top 25 best players to ever play the game.  

I’m with you.

There were so many elite players then, being just outside the top 7-8 isn’t that big a knock. Just look at the guys in this documentary. Magic, Bird, Malone, Olajuwon, Barkley, Thomas, Ewing... I could keep going

Really good two way player though, and players on other teams had a lot of respect for him. Jordan only needed two things. A tough guy like an Oakley or Rodman to have his back, and a Robin to his Batman.

Being the sidekick is never easy though, and he did it very well. It’s just so hard to judge how good he’d have been without Jordan.

[Matt39]

1 minute ago, 14 in Green said:

I’m with you.

There were so many elite players then, being just outside the top 7-8 isn’t that big a knock. Just look at the guys in this documentary. Magic, Bird, Malone, Olajuwon, Barkley, Thomas, Ewing... I could keep going

Really good two way player though, and players on other teams had a lot of respect for him. Jordan only needed two things. A tough guy like an Oakley or Rodman to have his back, and a Robin to his Batman.

Being the sidekick is never easy though, and he did it very well. It’s just so hard to judge how good he’d have been without Jordan.

Chicago won 55 games the year MJ was playing baseball. Kinda got screwed on a phantom foul call against the Knicks too.

[HawkeyeJet]

8 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

I’m with you.

There were so many elite players then, being just outside the top 7-8 isn’t that big a knock. Just look at the guys in this documentary. Magic, Bird, Malone, Olajuwon, Barkley, Thomas, Ewing... I could keep going

Really good two way player though, and players on other teams had a lot of respect for him. Jordan only needed two things. A tough guy like an Oakley or Rodman to have his back, and a Robin to his Batman.

Being the sidekick is never easy though, and he did it very well. It’s just so hard to judge how good he’d have been without Jordan.

Yep.  Well said.  He's the best glue guy ever is my opinion.  He is the best version of what people built up Draymond Green as.  Just the absolute best version of that.  There is nothing wrong with that.  Very, very good player. I just don't think he's in the discussion as one of the best ever.  Some folks do though.  All a matter of opinion, but fun to discuss.

[King P]

44 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

I think an equally intriguing debate regarding this documentary is the legacy of Scottie Pippen.

My friend and I have a very passionate back and forth going.  I am of the belief that Pippen is vastly overrated and is probably the 7th or 8th best player of his era at best.  My friend thinks Pippen is one of the top 25 best players to ever play the game.  

Pippen is Top 50 IMO.

He's just as important to the Bulls dynasty as MJ. There's a reason Mike thinks he's the best teammate he's ever had. MJ never won without Scottie. Their relationship was symbiotic, despite everyone's attempts to make it out to be parasitic. Also Pippen's game was important because he was the original point forward, which now we see all the time.

I feel people downplay Pippen to big up Jordan as much as possible, so he's now been reduced to being looked at as a sidekick by many

 

[PS17]

How would Scottie fare defensively against LeBron and Durant?

[HawkeyeJet]

17 minutes ago, King P said:

Pippen is Top 50 IMO.

He's just as important to the Bulls dynasty as MJ. There's a reason Mike thinks he's the best teammate he's ever had. MJ never won without Scottie. Their relationship was symbiotic, despite everyone's attempts to make it out to be parasitic. Also Pippen's game was important because he was the original point forward, which now we see all the time.

I feel people downplay Pippen to big up Jordan as much as possible, so he's now been reduced to being looked at as a sidekick by many

 

Pippen most certainly was not the original point forward.  That's a myth I believe a lot use to elevate him by implying he was some transcendent unicorn that changed basketball.

[PS17]

15 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Pippen most certainly was not the original point forward.  That's a myth I believe a lot use to elevate him by implying he was some transcendent unicorn that changed basketball.

Wouldn’t that unicorn be Magic? And LeBron in the modern era, who could be (actually now is) the best point guard in basketball, and probably the best power forward or center, if he had to. 

[HawkeyeJet]

5 minutes ago, PS17 said:

Wouldn’t that unicorn be Magic? And LeBron in the modern era, who could be (actually now is) the best point guard in basketball, and probably the best power forward or center, if he had to. 

Magic is who I would consider, yes.  Bird as well played the "Point Forward" style well before Pippen.

The actual term originated from some guy with the Bucks in the early/mid 80s.

[King P]

24 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Pippen most certainly was not the original point forward.  That's a myth I believe a lot use to elevate him by implying he was some transcendent unicorn that changed basketball.

He wasn't the first, but he was the guy who made it a thing IMO (you could actually give credit to Bird technically)

8 minutes ago, PS17 said:

Wouldn’t that unicorn be Magic? And LeBron in the modern era, who could be (actually now is) the best point guard in basketball, and probably the best power forward or center, if he had to. 

Magic doesn't count. He's a pure PG, just happens to have the body of a forward. And he's I know he's been put at other positions when needed (aka center when Kareem was hurt in the finals) but his style was that of a PG.

[14 in Green]

Just now, HawkeyeJet said:

Magic is who I would consider, yes.  Bird as well played the "Point Forward" style well before Pippen.

The actual term originated from some guy with the Bucks in the early/mid 80s.

Just a wild guess here, but was Junior Bridgeman the guy on the Bucks you're referring to?

His name popped into my head as soon as I read your post...

[pdxgreen]

20 minutes ago, PS17 said:

Wouldn’t that unicorn be Magic? And LeBron in the modern era, who could be (actually now is) the best point guard in basketball, and probably the best power forward or center, if he had to. 

Every generation has a basketball player who is a unicorn (i.e. a prototype that foreshadows a positional trend in the game.) And honestly, the whole concept is overrated anyway.  In a game just five players per side and some interachangable positions... there just isn't going to be that much uniqueness.  If you think Dirk stands out as the first big man with a signature jump shot... go take a look at Jack Sikma's highlights sometime.  Nobody remembers who he is because he played for a defunct franchise but he won a title the same as Dirk.

[Philc1]

1 hour ago, Matt39 said:

Chicago won 55 games the year MJ was playing baseball. Kinda got screwed on a phantom foul call against the Knicks too.

Well after the bulls getting nothing but gifts including rule changes like the flagrant foul instituted in 1991 to help them beat the pistons something had to give

[Philc1]

45 minutes ago, PS17 said:

How would Scottie fare defensively against LeBron and Durant?

He would do well.  He was a great defender and the Lebron of his day

[Philc1]

2 hours ago, Titan24 said:

As a young knicks fan at the time of the bulls run I just remember hating when Michael touched the ball at important moments of playoff games.  Guy never made mistakes, hit the shot, got fouled and I don’t think he ever missed a huge free throw.

never got that feeling w lebron and he’s great just not michael great 

Jordan was the greatest scorer ever.  Lebron was better all around

 

And I watched both extensively 

[HawkeyeJet]

6 minutes ago, 14 in Green said:

Just a wild guess here, but was Junior Bridgeman the guy on the Bucks you're referring to?

His name popped into my head as soon as I read your post...

I honestly cannot remember the name of the player.  I heard it in an interview with Don Nelson once.  It came to be because of an injury to Tiny Archibald.  I remember it because I didn't know Archibald ever played for the Bucks(I'm in my mid 30s). But Nelson said Archibald got hurt and Player X who I can't remember was asked to start initiating the offense so he coined the phrase point forward.  So that's at least the origin of the phrase.

[Matt39]

16 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

Magic is who I would consider, yes.  Bird as well played the "Point Forward" style well before Pippen.

The actual term originated from some guy with the Bucks in the early/mid 80s.

Barkley kind of was.