Michael Jordan Documentary: "The Last Dance"

[section314]

41 minutes ago, rangerous said:

wilt was an awesome player.  teams today would be drooling over the prospect of getting the second coming of wilt.  

Wilt would average 60 PPG in today's NBA. The league is dominated by 6'6'' guys who take 3 pointers. And don't play defense.

[rangerous]

8 minutes ago, section314 said:

Wilt would average 60 PPG in today's NBA. The league is dominated by 6'6'' guys who take 3 pointers. And don't play defense.

i don't think i'd go that far.  wilt was certainly a unique talent.  guys like shaq or duncan might have something to say about wilt scoring so much.  but you are right in the nba being made up mainly of 6-6 to 6-9 guys.  they've gone away from the traditional team model of having a true center.  but that's what the colleges are turning out.  it's not always fun to watch.

[predator_05]

33 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

 

Fans don't know him as a person, they know him as a great player and a great marketer.  To them he was likable.  It's rare for the average fan go get to know Jordan types, what drives them to be the best is also a character flaw in real life.

They're kind of like sociopaths aren't they. Tiger is the same. Lance armstrong had that same character trait.

Fascinating to watch from afar.

[section314]

6 minutes ago, rangerous said:

i don't think i'd go that far.  wilt was certainly a unique talent.  guys like shaq or duncan might have something to say about wilt scoring so much.  but you are right in the nba being made up mainly of 6-6 to 6-9 guys.  they've gone away from the traditional team model of having a true center.  but that's what the colleges are turning out.  it's not always fun to watch.

Good post. For about 20 years, or so, the NBA has become unwatchable for me. I am 62, and I was introduced to the NBA at the end of the Russell dynasty, the heyday of the great Knick TEAMS, the "Walton Gang" in Portland, and Magic, Larry and Michael. The idea of team ball. Well, that's gone by the wayside, probably never to come back. And, as you stated, college has adopted that selfish, me first, attitude. It's the mini NBA, just take 3's, and the hell with the rest of the team. I think the death of the great college game was when Coach K fell victim to the allure of bringing in these "one and done" guys.

[Jethead]

44 minutes ago, section314 said:

Wilt would average 60 PPG in today's NBA. The league is dominated by 6'6'' guys who take 3 pointers. And don't play defense.

 

[nyjunc]

44 minutes ago, predator_05 said:

They're kind of like sociopaths aren't they. Tiger is the same. Lance armstrong had that same character trait.

Fascinating to watch from afar.

You have people that have been told how great they are since they were kids, they are bound to have some personality flaws.  As they get older they usually change a little but Michael had remained a huge success making money though he's terrible as an NBA exec.

I was lucky to meet many greats with my old jobs. I saw greats in their prime and greats that were older and humbled.  It's really interesting seeing them out of the public eye and how they act.  

[nyjunc]

58 minutes ago, rangerous said:

i don't think i'd go that far.  wilt was certainly a unique talent.  guys like shaq or duncan might have something to say about wilt scoring so much.  but you are right in the nba being made up mainly of 6-6 to 6-9 guys.  they've gone away from the traditional team model of having a true center.  but that's what the colleges are turning out.  it's not always fun to watch.

It's not the fault of the colleges, these kids want to get to the NBA as fast as possible now.  They even go early when they might not be drafted.  Players used to be able to develop their game in college and it was great for college and the NBA. 

[Jets0712]

As a die hard Knicks fan at the time, I hated Jordan...but then I gave up. Halfway through I just gave in. His greatness defied all logic and I eventually realized I’m watching the greatest athlete of all time. And by the end I was one of his biggest fans. He’s the only athlete to ever do that. 
He’s so much, far and away better than Lebron or anybody else to ever play/live, it’s not even close. Not close. 

Couldn’t have said it better


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[TuscanyTile2]

12 hours ago, 14 in Green said:

It seemed like there was a big difference back then the way the game was played in the Eastern and Western Conferences also.

The East played a tough, hard nosed style of ball. Lots of 84-80 type of games. Out West the Lakers had "Showtime" and that conference played a more wide open, higher scoring game. Inter conference matchups, and The Finals were a clash of styles which was fun to watch, not to mention the arguments about which style was better basketball.

People may have forgotten over the years, but the low scoring tough defense we're now celebrating again because of this Jordan series is the game a lot of us were getting tired of watching after the end of the Ewing/Mourning era.

Absolutely right.  I think there could have been a better balance struck though where they could've penalized flagrant fouls more but still kept the toughness aspect in the game. 

To me, the league is hard to watch now.  It feels like much less like a team game now  with all the 3 pointers.  You don't have the great passing that you used to have.  I think the NBA would be a better sport if they either moved the 3 point line back to the point where there would be a lot fewer 3's taken or just plain eliminate the 3 altogether.  I know that will never happen btw (at least the latter idea).

[Butterfield]

2 hours ago, prime21 said:

 

And he didn’t care. His only goal was to win and be the best. Now a days guys need to be liked or their feelings get hurt.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

Oh, he cared, a lot.  

[PS17]

3 hours ago, HessStation said:

As a die hard Knicks fan at the time, I hated Jordan...but then I gave up. Halfway through I just gave in. His greatness defied all logic and I eventually realized I’m watching the greatest athlete of all time. And by the end I was one of his biggest fans. He’s the only athlete to ever do that. 
He’s so much, far and away better than Lebron or anybody else to ever play/live, it’s not even close. Not close. 

I felt similarly about Brady after he came back to beat Atlanta in the Super Bowl. Wouldn’t say I became a fan of him, but at a certain point you have to sit back and enjoy it on some level. 

[HessStation]

40 minutes ago, PS17 said:

I felt similarly about Brady after he came back to beat Atlanta in the Super Bowl. Wouldn’t say I became a fan of him, but at a certain point you have to sit back and enjoy it on some level. 

Brady cheated, got stupid lucky a lot  and needed the refs help for half his super bowl wins, **** that guy

[Larz]

On 4/20/2020 at 10:24 PM, pdxgreen said:

I hated watching Larry Bird growing up.  It was like watching your dad's drinking buddy who worked for the parks division come over on the weekends and beat your local NBA team.  I saw him put up 49 points, 14 boards, 12 assists and 4 steals against the Blazers team that went to the NB Finals in '92.  There were like four All Stars caliber players on that team and he went through them like sh*t through a goose.  And that was with a slipped disc in his back and two re-attached Achilles tendons! When kids nowadays say that it's already a given that Luka Doncic is going to be better than Bird... I want to kick out their TVs out and tell them never watch pro basketball again as long as they live.

As much as I hated yet respected the bulls, that 86 celtics team was basketball at it’s peak in my opinion 

[TuscanyTile2]

1 minute ago, Larz said:

As much as I hated yet respected the bulls, that 86 celtics team was basketball at it’s peak in my opinion 

Agreed. Though how about MJ pushing that team to the brink in game 2!   If that series was tied 1-all going back to Chicago, there’s a good chance that there would have been a game 5.  Would’ve loved to have seen MJ’s performance in that one.

Could you imagine a 30-52 team taking a 67-15 team that many think is the best ever to a deciding game 5?!

[Philc1]

14 hours ago, Larz said:

As much as I hated yet respected the bulls, that 86 celtics team was basketball at it’s peak in my opinion 

Best team ever

[Irish Jet]

Dennis Rodman actually seems to be a really nice guy.

[greenwichjetfan]

On 5/5/2020 at 12:23 PM, PS17 said:

I felt similarly about Brady after he came back to beat Atlanta in the Super Bowl. Wouldn’t say I became a fan of him, but at a certain point you have to sit back and enjoy it on some level. 

Jordan played a two-way sport in which he was equally dominating on both ends.

Brady used cameras and Ernie Adams to know who to dink and dunk the ball off to. 

Let’s never confuse the greatest of all time with a scrub 6th round QB who didn’t even break the starting lineup in college, and won 6 Super Bowls by being paired up with the GOAT HC/GM who for 20 years surrounded him with:
- great weapons (Branch, Faulk, Moss, Gronk, Dillon, Welker, Edelman, etc)
- consistent top 10 defenses (every super bowl Brady has reached, the defense was top 7 in points allowed)
- Ernie Adams
- the best cheatcodes in the game (cameras, stealing playbooks, jamming headsets, etc etc)

 

edit: plus, Jordan never took HGH.

[PS17]

4 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Jordan played a two-way sport in which he was equally dominating on both ends.

Brady used cameras and Ernie Adams to know who to dink and dunk the ball off to. 

Let’s never confuse the greatest of all time with a scrub 6th round QB who didn’t even break the starting lineup in college, and won 6 Super Bowls by being paired up with the GOAT HC/GM who for 20 years surrounded him with:
- great weapons (Branch, Faulk, Moss, Gronk, Dillon, Welker, Edelman, etc)
- consistent top 10 defenses (every super bowl Brady has reached, the defense was top 7 in points allowed)
- Ernie Adams
- the best cheatcodes in the game (cameras, stealing playbooks, jamming headsets, etc etc)

 

edit: plus, Jordan never took HGH.

I should clarify by saying I was just exhausted by rooting against him. 

[pdxgreen]

2 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Jordan played a two-way sport in which he was equally dominating on both ends.

Brady used cameras and Ernie Adams to know who to dink and dunk the ball off to. 

Let’s never confuse the greatest of all time with a scrub 6th round QB who didn’t even break the starting lineup in college, and won 6 Super Bowls by being paired up with the GOAT HC/GM who for 20 years surrounded him with:
- great weapons (Branch, Faulk, Moss, Gronk, Dillon, Welker, Edelman, etc)
- consistent top 10 defenses (every super bowl Brady has reached, the defense was top 7 in points allowed)
- Ernie Adams
- the best cheatcodes in the game (cameras, stealing playbooks, jamming headsets, etc etc)

The greatest knock against Brady will always be that his teams had no great rival.  Lebron's titles came against two of the greatest dynasties the NBA has ever seen, Golden State and the San Antonio Spurs.  Same for Jordan, his playoff battles with the Celtics, Detroit and the Knicks are the stuff of legend.  Who did Shady ever REALLY battle for supremacy of the the NFL.  Peyton was never really paired with a Landry/Walsh type to create a team comparable to the Pats.  No Steel Curtain to go up against.  No Staubach era Cowboys who were the equal of the Pats both on and off the field.  What will make his dominance look really suspect is that he got beaten by a borderline HOFer in Eli Manning twice.  So in thirty years when everybody is done dick riding the Pats, the historians will go "Wow.  It wasn't that they were that much better than everybody else.  It's that most everybody else was consistently was consistently mediocre."

[roscoeword]

saw first three parts of documentary. It's pretty confusing as they go back and forth in time. I understand the concept, but I"m losing them... Pippin is holding out, then they go back in time, I forgot already about Pippin holding out, and when is the Last Dance coming?  I am an NBA fan, and am still getting confused with the sequence. I think they are being too cute with the back and forth in time.... and if someone isn't an NBA fan that knows that era, I don't see how he could follow. 

[Philc1]

How many times did Charles Smith get fouled at the end of game 5

[greenwichjetfan]

5 hours ago, pdxgreen said:

The greatest knock against Brady will always be that his teams had no great rival.  Lebron's titles came against two of the greatest dynasties the NBA has ever seen, Golden State and the San Antonio Spurs.  Same for Jordan, his playoff battles with the Celtics, Detroit and the Knicks are the stuff of legend.  Who did Shady ever REALLY battle for supremacy of the the NFL.  Peyton was never really paired with a Landry/Walsh type to create a team comparable to the Pats.  No Steel Curtain to go up against.  No Staubach era Cowboys who were the equal of the Pats both on and off the field.  What will make his dominance look really suspect is that he got beaten by a borderline HOFer in Eli Manning twice.  So in thirty years when everybody is done dick riding the Pats, the historians will go "Wow.  It wasn't that they were that much better than everybody else.  It's that most everybody else was consistently was consistently mediocre."

100% agree. And the crazy thing is that Peyton actually went 3-2 against the pats in the playoffs; all three wins coming in AFCCGs, preventing Brady and Belichick from trips to more SBs.

People don’t realize this but Peyton’s last playoff loss against Brady and Belichick was back in ‘05 when the pats were up to all their shenanigans - all completely unchecked.

[Bugg]

15 hours ago, roscoeword said:

saw first three parts of documentary. It's pretty confusing as they go back and forth in time. I understand the concept, but I"m losing them... Pippin is holding out, then they go back in time, I forgot already about Pippin holding out, and when is the Last Dance coming?  I am an NBA fan, and am still getting confused with the sequence. I think they are being too cute with the back and forth in time.... and if someone isn't an NBA fan that knows that era, I don't see how he could follow. 

Not all that confusing. If you want to be confused, watch this season of "Westworld". 

The NBA was so much more watchable then. Until Jordan's retirement from the Bulls , was reasonable to say the NBA was challenging the NFL for most popular sport in America.

And with good reason. now? forget it. 

[chirorob]

On 5/5/2020 at 8:52 AM, rangerous said:

i don't think i'd go that far.  wilt was certainly a unique talent.  guys like shaq or duncan might have something to say about wilt scoring so much.  but you are right in the nba being made up mainly of 6-6 to 6-9 guys.  they've gone away from the traditional team model of having a true center.  but that's what the colleges are turning out.  it's not always fun to watch.

Wilt was one of the all time great athletes.  When Arnold Schwarzenegger made Conan with Wilt, they worked out together.  Years later Arnold talked about his freakish strength. 

Wilt was a track star.  He did the high jump, 400, 800 and shot put.  Wilt was one of the all time greatest athletes in any sport.  

Could he shoot a 3?  No.  Could he run and cover and play defense today?  100%.   Could anyone in today's NBA run with him and stop him from dunking on them?  

[roscoeword]

didn't get something - the documentary shows that Jordan was getting beat up by Detroit bullies, and Bulls kept losing to them in playoffs. So they went and got Rodman to be an enforcer for them, to overcome the Pistons...  but after that, the documentary shows, that when they finally beat the Pistons and get tough, Rodman is still on Detroit? (and beating on Pippin).... what am I missing here?

[Melly-Mel]

4 hours ago, roscoeword said:

didn't get something - the documentary shows that Jordan was getting beat up by Detroit bullies, and Bulls kept losing to them in playoffs. So they went and got Rodman to be an enforcer for them, to overcome the Pistons...  but after that, the documentary shows, that when they finally beat the Pistons and get tough, Rodman is still on Detroit? (and beating on Pippin).... what am I missing here?

Rodman did not play on the bulls team until after they had already won the first 3 championships and jordan played baseball.  He was part of the second 3 peat team

[Philc1]

5 hours ago, roscoeword said:

didn't get something - the documentary shows that Jordan was getting beat up by Detroit bullies, and Bulls kept losing to them in playoffs. So they went and got Rodman to be an enforcer for them, to overcome the Pistons...  but after that, the documentary shows, that when they finally beat the Pistons and get tough, Rodman is still on Detroit? (and beating on Pippin).... what am I missing here?

The real story is the nba created and implemented the flagrant foul rule in 1991 just to help Jordan beat the Pistons

 

the bulls basically got Rodman for nothing in a trade 5 years later 

[nyjunc]

2 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

The real story is the nba created and implemented the flagrant foul rule in 1991 just to help Jordan beat the Pistons

 

the bulls basically got Rodman for nothing in a trade 5 years later 

No one wanted Rodman when the bulls acquired him. He was like Randy moss in Oakland before going to NE.

[Philc1]

2 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

No one wanted Rodman when the bulls acquired him. He was like Randy moss in Oakland before going to NE.

That’s true and that’s why that trade doesn’t look so egregious but the fact remains the bulls got Rodman for Will Perdue

[rangerous]

8 hours ago, chirorob said:

Wilt was one of the all time great athletes.  When Arnold Schwarzenegger made Conan with Wilt, they worked out together.  Years later Arnold talked about his freakish strength. 

Wilt was a track star.  He did the high jump, 400, 800 and shot put.  Wilt was one of the all time greatest athletes in any sport.  

Could he shoot a 3?  No.  Could he run and cover and play defense today?  100%.   Could anyone in today's NBA run with him and stop him from dunking on them?  

yep.  i forgot about his participation in track.  i wouldn't worry about him shooting a 3.  i'd worry more about his free throws.  it would've been interesting to see wilt in his prime go against jabbar in his prime or even duncan and shaq.  i don't think those guys could play with him.

[roscoeword]

Lebron may be comparable to Jordan, but I definitely like Jordan a ton more. He is poetry in motion, Lebron is like a truck who drives down the lane, knocking every one over, travels like crazy, bullies everyone and cries about fouls....    much more fun to witness Jordan's game.  And I couldn't give a damn if he didn't back that candidate over Jesse Helms. Good for him. These documentary makers (and rest of the media) make it think that if you aren't socially active, you are somehow a worse human being. And being socially conscious, means taking their leftist progressive views. What if you are socially active, but on the right side of the spectrum? They'd trash you. Good for Jordan for not getting involved. And anyone who really knows politics, Jesse Helms wasn't a racist or an anti-Semite. It is easy to be superficial and label him, but if you really listened to him (the guy was in Congress for like 40 years), he was nothing of the kind.

[CTJetsFan]

True story - about 15 years ago (maybe a little longer) I was walking into a soul food/bbq joint in Bridgeport, CT and I see a really tall dude in a suit talking to someone outside. As I walk by, I realize it's Charles Smith. As I'm walking back out , he's getting ready to leave and I give him a nod and said "Charles, you should have dunked it". Boy, what a look I got lol.

[Jolot]

I’m 49, avid fan of all 4 sports. The only 2 athletes i ever felt my teams had zero chance against in their primes were Jordan and Mariano . There was a feeling as if there was truly a competitive advantage, like these 2 guys were literally aliens from another universe. It’s hard to describe to those who didn’t live through it . It wasn’t just greatness, it wasn’t just all time greatness ( like a Lebron or Kobe or Peyton Manning )..it was far and above that . 

[chirorob]

1 hour ago, rangerous said:

yep.  i forgot about his participation in track.  i wouldn't worry about him shooting a 3.  i'd worry more about his free throws.  it would've been interesting to see wilt in his prime go against jabbar in his prime or even duncan and shaq.  i don't think those guys could play with him.

Wilt's free throws were about like Shaq, 50% on a good day.

I don't know who's better, I never saw him play, but I think Wilt's ability to run up and down the court would have worn out a lot of the later players.

[rangerous]

19 minutes ago, chirorob said:

Wilt's free throws were about like Shaq, 50% on a good day.

I don't know who's better, I never saw him play, but I think Wilt's ability to run up and down the court would have worn out a lot of the later players.

once again it's all about what's between a guys ears.  wilt had all that talent.  he didn't need to even break a sweat to play.  he couldn't get past russell because he didn't have the killer instinct.  guys like jabbar and duncan were all focus when they played.  i don't think jabbar even made a bad play.  i didn't watch the spurs enough but it was clear duncan made that team go. a guy like shaq was so good he also didn't need to break a sweat.  when he won with the lakers he had kobe to keep him focused.