Trevor Talk

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

No NFL team tanks.  We will win meaningless games late. 

Stop investing in specific picks or players or plans to lose, that road is only disappointment.

This year we end the season with the Raiders, Rams, Seahawks, Browns, and Pats.

Help me see the "meaningless games late."

[Jetsfan80]

9 minutes ago, JetFreak89 said:

It's not desperation though, it's sacrificing short-term happiness for long-term gain. There is a direct correlation between final record and draft standings, it's not as if it is a secret formula. Late season wins are only helpful if you are developing young talent at key positions. Other than that, their just hurting your chances for next year. 

And in many cases, the teams who win those late season games are still playing their veterans, because the coach in charge is still trying to win as many games as possible.

It's the best argument for firing a coach midseason, which we never do.  Herm, Rex and Bowles were all still playing their vets right to the very end, hoping to win as many games as possible in their audition for their next jobs.  Gase will do the exact same thing if he's allowed to finish out the string.

Fire Gase midseason and have the interim coach play young guys like Ashtyn Davis, Perine, Cager, and Bryce Huff.  If you still continue to lose, great, you pick higher.  If you win games because of these guys, that's fine too, because it demonstrates you have some young talent to build around. 

But winning meaningless games with guys like Frank Gore, Jordan Jenkins, Avery Williamson and Bradley McDougald out there would be the worst possible outcome, because none of those guys are in the long-term plans of the franchise.

[Rhg1084]

58 minutes ago, Warfish said:

None of those teams tanked.

Tanking in the NFL is pure fan fantasy.

But by all means, keep the most pathetic dream in sportsfandom alive, that if we just suck enough, if we can out-suck our suckiest rivals, then good things will happen.

Good thing the Jets dont need to “tank”. This team is so putrid they’ll be lucky to go 2-14

[The Crusher]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

I can't F-in believe we're hoping to tank again for a QB.

 

Why not? Turned out so well with Darnold. Let’s destroy another one just like the other one. 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

I think Carolina, Cleveland, Detroit and maybe Jacksonville will be up in the top 5 with us. Each of them could and should draft him if they have the chance. 

[Rhg1084]

1 minute ago, TeddEY said:

This year we end the season with the Raiders, Rams, Seahawks, Browns, and Pats.

Help me see the "meaningless games late."

Right the schedule is brutal. If they don’t beat Denver they can go 0-16. I don’t think we will beat Miami 

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

This year we end the season with the Raiders, Rams, Seahawks, Browns, and Pats.

Help me see the "meaningless games late."

Pats will be resting their starters after locking up a playoff spot.  

I could see the Browns game being a W as well, because Baker Mayfield is barely better than Darnold.  They also might have some key injuries by then.  And/or Odell Beckham might go full Odell Beckham.  He hasn't been getting as many targets this year with the team going run-heavy.  For now, he says he's OK with it.  We'll see how he feels by Week 16.  

[kevinc855]

Tanking is not a real thing....

a fantasy of fans imaginations 

[varjet]

Let's say the Jets are in a position to draft a new QB that is as good or better than Darnold.  In 2021 that QB will get:

• Hopefully a good better coach to coach him.
• Mims, Herndon and other improved WRs.
• Becton, Lewis, a better McGovern, a kicking RG and at least Fant.  Much better than Darnold had.
• a RB

The Jets will get:

• A good draft pick for Darnold
• Morgan as a backup.
• 4 years of a QB rookie contract.

I like Darnold and feel for him.  Hopefully he can go to the Raiders, 49ers, Broncos or somewhere similar.  

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

I can't F-in believe we're hoping to tank again for a QB.

 

It’s not even actual tanking, they made this mess with the intent it would work!

[varjet]

6 minutes ago, BROOKLYN JET said:

Cousins and the Vikings are the biggest threat right now.

#Macc

This is why you try and work with your rookie QB rather than pay $30mm for a free agent.  

[fullblast]

I still believe in Sam.

[Jetsfan80]

10 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

Ok clarified. BUT 

you still have to take into account the poor talent around Sam the lousy oline the lousy running game and Gase. Even Aaron Rodgers sucked over the last few years due to lack of talent around him. I can see taking Trevor if he falls into our lap over Sam but if he doesn’t, stick with Sam and build around him. 

I mean, down the stretch last season he had Robby Anderson (who everyone thinks is awesome now), Crowder, and Demaryuis Thomas as his WR trio, with Ryan Griffin catching nearly everything thrown at him (he finished top 10 in the NFL in catch % that season).  The O-Line was also playing much better than it did earlier in the season.  And again, he was playing very weak defenses, which helped to mitigate the lack of talent surrounding Darnold.

Just how many excuses need to be piled up to make you feel good about Darnold as a franchise QB?  If he can't look like a top half QB even when you have to "fudge the numbers" in his favor and his circumstances are good, when will he ever look like one?  Adversity is part of the deal in the NFL, for all QB's.

[varjet]

22 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

Our offense isn’t as bad as it has looked. It’s going to get decisively better in the next few weeks. Crowder Mims Bell Smith will all be back. Herndon and Griffin will catch up and play back into form.  But our defense is just atrocious Which would negate any advances our offense makes. And let’s not forget sandwich six and two and his last eight last year so he’s bound to play better than he has in the first two games. Factory in our schedule which is brutal I can still see us winning 3 to 4 games. But I can see the other teams also winning 3 to 4 games so it’s going to be a crapshoot for Trevor
 

Gase and the players will panic in the second half of the season and become a much better team, just when playoff chances are zero.  We will be in prime position to take the best DT/ILB/G on the board.

[56mehl56]

8 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Is, 5 games against bottom 6 defenses, "context" or no?

Nope game situation,  winning , trailing by how much,  TOP  , injuries, weather etc...

Simply saying against top or bottom D's doesn't suffice . For example you can say he lost against two top D's this year Buffalo and Sf w/o context you don't know SF played w/o Sherman and lost both Bosa and Thomas in game. 

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, varjet said:

This is why you try and work with your rookie QB rather than pay $30mm for a free agent.  

Full agreement there.  Never use free agency to find anything more than a "bridge guy" at QB.  But that's also a good argument to suggest that, if you aren't sure you have your guy 3 years in (or less, in some circumstances), draft another one. 

The Cardinals gave up on Josh Rosen very quickly and it worked out well.  Why can't we do something similar as the Cardinals?  Hire a solid offensive coach, draft a QB, use your cap space and many picks to build around him.  We can turn this thing around very quickly.  

[JetBlue]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Is it tho?

What team in the NFL has tanked for a player and then won a Super Bowl with that tanked-for-player.

I'll wait.

Indy Colts for Peyton Manning comes to mind... 

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, JetBlue said:

Indy Colts for Peyton Manning comes to mind... 

But that doesn't count because Warfish says tanking isn't a thing that happens or SHOULD happen.  

[Beerfish]

45 minutes ago, Waka Flocka Flacco said:

It's not that Trevor Lawrence is a can't miss prospect. It's that Sam Darnold is an already has missed prospect.

We must get the QB then get the QB and continue to get the QB until we have the QB and build the team with whatever time is left over 

Disagree, time and time again it is shown that if you get the QB 1st and have zero talent  around him he will get killed.

the teams that have success with young QBs build the team then get the QB.

A guy like dak prescott would not be highly thought of if he was thrust onto a team like the jets.

Pat mahommes, best player in the league perhaps would be good anywhere but he went to a team that was built well already.

Lamar jacksonsn in balt, same thing.

Build an iron wall oline, get a real RB and couple of wrs and improve the defense then add your qb to a team in which  he has a chance.  There are qb prospect every year or every couple years that people love.

Two years from now there will be talking about the next crop of qbs.

[JetBlue]

1 hour ago, nico002 said:

Why would we win meaningless games in December if we can't win them now? Are you suggesting that injuries could be the reason why the Jets are off to a bad start? If so, why would you give up on the team?

Not suggesting that at all.  Injuries are a factor but this team is disorganized, unprepared and unmotivated on the field.  A lot of that has to do with coaching.   Having a few rookies come back from injury is not going to drastically change that.  

[JetBlue]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

But that doesn't count because Warfish says tanking isn't a thing that happens or SHOULD happen.  

That is like saying that NBA players don't try and recruit other players while they are under contract with another team.  We know this stuff happens all the time.   I know fans don't like it but it is very naive to think this kind of thing doesn't happen, especially when there is a player or players who are considered generational talents available, that could turn around the fortunes of a franchise.  

[jgb]

19 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And in many cases, the teams who win those late season games are still playing their veterans, because the coach in charge is still trying to win as many games as possible.

It's the best argument for firing a coach midseason, which we never do.  Herm, Rex and Bowles were all still playing their vets right to the very end, hoping to win as many games as possible in their audition for their next jobs.

Fire Gase midseason and have the interim coach play young guys like Ashtyn Davis, Perine, Cager, and Bryce Huff.  If you still continue to lose, great, you pick higher.  If you win games because of these guys, that's fine too, because it demonstrates you have some young talent to build around. 

But winning meaningless games with guys like Frank Gore, Jordan Jenkins, Avery Williamson and Bradley McDougald out there would be the worst possible outcome, because none of those guys are in the long-term plans of the franchise.

Agree with you to a point but wouldn't an interim be just as motivated to "show what he has" for the next job?

[David Harris]

I’m torn.

I am a Jets homer despite being reasoned and rational in all other aspects of my life. I held onto Mac as long as anyone.  I feel a deep loyalty to Sam Darnold, he had a QBR over 90 last game.

The magic is still in there, that Berrios TD last week was sick! Flicked a perfect and unbelievably hard pass on the run to his left, I mean the physics involved in that throw! Accelerating to his left at a certain speed, twisting his torso, Braxton accelerating to Sam’s right with a corner back in trail at a 45° angle to the goal line, perfect arc/velocity- that instinct Sam has is remarkable.

All of that said if we get the number one overall pick I have now chosen that I would want Trevor Lawrence as he has a generational talent.

And that said, I hope we don’t get the number one pick And don’t have to lose Sam but rather that we are in the top 3 to 5 and are able to get to Jammar Chase. 

 

Sam is OK, the offense of line is OK, the only thing left is these receivers.  Part of me Is holding out hope that Mims is the key to everything this year, But it’s probably too much to put on a rookie wide out who has had four snaps of practice.

[ZachEY]

9 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Nope game situation,  winning , trailing by how much,  TOP  , injuries, weather etc...

Simply saying against top or bottom D's doesn't suffice . For example you can say he lost against two top D's this year Buffalo and Sf w/o context you don't know SF played w/o Sherman and lost both Bosa and Thomas in game. 

We don't yet know they are top Defenses this season.

That having been said, that's the nice thing about full season stats, they tend to average out context.  Because, when someone says Darnold played like a top 10 QB, they use all of these issues to prop up his stats.  However, they don't do that to the other 31 QBs, exploring their context to make them look better than they are.  It's all just nonsense.  Averages aren't perfect, but they tell a pretty good story, regardless of the "but, actually"'s.

[JetBlue]

26 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

Tanking is not a real thing....

a fantasy of fans imaginations 

Not in the true sense of word, but if you don't think the GMs of teams who are out of the playoff race don't consider draft position in their decision making you are the one in fantasy land. 

[choon328]

56 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

No he did not.

2000 yds passing

13 tds

4 int

2 TDs rushing

61% Comp

So 4,000 yds, 26 tds and 8 int wouldn't be top 10?

26 tds would've been good enough for 8th most in the NFL last year. At worst it was top 12

I'm not defending Darnold. He's been awful so far this year.  But the guy I responded to wondered why people gave him sh*t about him wanting to trade Darnold before this year.  And it was obvious that Darnolds last 8 games gave a lot of people hope he would keep progressing. 

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, jgb said:

Agree with you to a point but wouldn't an interim be just as motivated to "show what he has" for the next job?

He has no choice.  He's the interim coach.  He is granted that position only under the terms of what the GM lays out.  Otherwise he can be fired as well.  

Do what the GM asks and he'll give his next team a great recommendation.  

[JetBlue]

26 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And in many cases, the teams who win those late season games are still playing their veterans, because the coach in charge is still trying to win as many games as possible.

It's the best argument for firing a coach midseason, which we never do.  Herm, Rex and Bowles were all still playing their vets right to the very end, hoping to win as many games as possible in their audition for their next jobs.  Gase will do the exact same thing if he's allowed to finish out the string.

Fire Gase midseason and have the interim coach play young guys like Ashtyn Davis, Perine, Cager, and Bryce Huff.  If you still continue to lose, great, you pick higher.  If you win games because of these guys, that's fine too, because it demonstrates you have some young talent to build around. 

But winning meaningless games with guys like Frank Gore, Jordan Jenkins, Avery Williamson and Bradley McDougald out there would be the worst possible outcome, because none of those guys are in the long-term plans of the franchise.

Give this man a cigar!  You get what the whole "tanking" concept really is. Some folks seem to be to dense to understand the point.  

[Bronx]

Who cares about 2020? See what is happening in India with their second wave of COVID19. I hope we play at least enough games to call it a season and have the worst record then.

I will actually call it a successful season eliminating all short term contracts, not watching this horrendous team play and booting the entire coaching staff minus Greg Williams.

 

[Wonderboy]

11 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Disagree, time and time again it is shown that if you get the QB 1st and have zero talent  around him he will get killed.

the teams that have success with young QBs build the team then get the QB.

A guy like dak prescott would not be highly thought of if he was thrust onto a team like the jets.

Pat mahommes, best player in the league perhaps would be good anywhere but he went to a team that was built well already.

Lamar jacksonsn in balt, same thing.

Build an iron wall oline, get a real RB and couple of wrs and improve the defense then add your qb to a team in which  he has a chance.  There are qb prospect every year or every couple years that people love.

Two years from now there will be talking about the next crop of qbs.

Archie Manning agrees wholeheartedly 

[56mehl56]

2 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

We don't yet know they are top Defenses this season.

That having been said, that's the nice thing about full season stats, they tend to average out context.  Because, when someone says Darnold played like a top 10 QB, they use all of these issues to prop up his stats.  However, they don't do that to the other 31 QBs, exploring their context to make them look better than they are.  It's all just nonsense.  Averages aren't perfect, but they tell a pretty good story, regardless of the "but, actually"'s.

Just like we don't know yet if Sam will be a top or bottom tier QB this season.  Stats can be twisted any way to prove a point . Take away fantasy football and a majority of these stats wouldn't even exist.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

Give this man a cigar!  You get what the whole "tanking" concept really is. Some folks seem to be to dense to understand the point.  

People hate that term because many/most here played organized team sports at some level before, and would never consider losing purposely.

Obviously, players and coaches never try to lose a game, at any level.  Its up to front offices to put them in a "position to fail", keeping the franchise's long-term goals in mind.

[Wonderboy]

29 minutes ago, Samtorobby47 said:

I think Carolina, Cleveland, Detroit and maybe Jacksonville will be up in the top 5 with us. Each of them could and should draft him if they have the chance. 

Yes forgot about the Panthers. But Teddy is a seasoned QB and Mcafferty will be back soon. But they are definitely in the running

[JetBlue]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

People hate that term because many/most here played organized team sports at some level before, and would never consider losing purposely.

Obviously, players and coaches never try to lose a game, at any level.  Its up to front offices to put them in a "position to fail", keeping the franchise's long-term goals in mind.

Agreed.  I personally never felt that if you were to play your younger players to get them experience and to see what you have in them, you were "tanking".  It was always a win-win to me, especially if I knew what I had in the veterans and they were just average to mediocre.    Get your young guys the PT, let them take their lumps, the team will be better in the long term for it.  

[Integrity28]

1 hour ago, UntouchableCrew said:

People keep saying this but the Giants were competitive for most of the game against the Steelers and came down to the last play against the Bears.

The Jets have been totally non-competitive, albeit against what we think is better competition. Giants are bad, but they're run of the mill 4-12 bad. I think we're worse than that.

Since then, they’ve lost Saquon and Sterling.