Cimini: LaFleur and Rex Hogan pushed for Zach, said he was better than Lawrence

[SickJetFan]

Just now, LIJetsFan said:

What is there, 2 maybe 3 people in this entire forum still defending/excusing Zack?  Let it go guys.  

nobody excusing him for anything...I think he dug his own grave but it is pretty difficult to bomb on 2 1st round picks in a row....soo more to this story here.

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

nobody excusing him for anything...I think he dug his own grave but it is pretty difficult to bomb on 2 1st round picks in a row....soo more to this story here.

What percentage of 1st round QBs do not become FQBs? Whiffing 2 in a row is the most likely of the varied outcomes as they are statistically-independent events. Failing once doesn’t make a team “due” to hit next time. 

[SickJetFan]

Just now, jgb said:

What percentage of 1st round QBs do not become FQBs? Whiffing 2 in a row is the most likely of the varied outcomes as they are statistically-independent events. Failing once doesn’t make a team “due” to hit next time. 

tell me...did you think Darnold was going to fail right after they draft him?

[LIJetsFan]

Just now, jgb said:

What percentage of 1st round QBs do not become FQBs? Whiffing 2 in a row is the most likely of the varied outcomes as they are statistically-independent events. Failing once doesn’t make a team “due” to hit next time. 

Not to mention the jury is more out on Becton than it is on Zack.  Becton might be depth or more, Zack will not dress on game day.  

[SickJetFan]

Just now, LIJetsFan said:

Not to mention the jury is more out on Becton than it is on Zack.  Becton might be depth or more, Zack will not dress on game day.  

Becton will be LT.

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

tell me...did you think Darnold was going to fail right after they draft him?

Over the objection of “relevance” I will answer. I thought Sam was going to be a good one and Macc the blind squirrel tripped over his dick onto an acorn.

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, LIJetsFan said:

Not to mention the jury is more out on Becton than it is on Zack.  Becton might be depth or more, Zack will not dress on game day.  

I melted down in draft thread when we took Becton over Wirfs.

2 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

Becton will be LT.

Yeah, ok. 

[slimjasi]

16 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

nobody excusing him for anything...I think he dug his own grave but it is pretty difficult to bomb on 2 1st round picks in a row....soo more to this story here.

It's actually pretty easy to do so. 

The NFL draft is a minefield of QB busts. 

[SickJetFan]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

Over the objection of “relevance” I will answer. I thought Sam was going to be a good one and Macc the blind squirrel tripped over his dick onto an acorn.

“relevance”...since you asked....

Ist off I wasnt even talking about Zach.

Shane comment

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

I totally understand why, philosophically, Douglas made the pick. You’re at 2 overall and you have a shot at a plus-arm, plus-athlete prospect who presents well enough, it was probably a worthwhile gamble. I was against Zach because the Jets QB job is a wood-chipper and Zach was a squeaky clean herb from the Utah burbs who was always going to get chewed up here. 

to which I respond ....does that mean they can never pick a QB?

 

so basically i was saying in next posts that you can never really know and therefore can never pick a QB.,..hence my comment on Darnold.

 

[SickJetFan]

2 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

It's actually pretty easy to do so. 

The NFL draft is a minefield of QB busts. 

i think the Jets set a new precedent here with the 3rd overall and 2nd overall in such proximity and such utter inept failure

[pointman]

15 minutes ago, jgb said:

What percentage of 1st round QBs do not become FQBs? Whiffing 2 in a row is the most likely of the varied outcomes as they are statistically-independent events. Failing once doesn’t make a team “due” to hit next time. 

Stop with your reasoning, mathematical backing, and logic. 

 

[jgb]

Just now, SickJetFan said:

“relevance”...since you asked....

Ist off I wasnt even talking about Zach.

Shane comment

to which I respond ....does that mean they can never pick a QB?

 

so basically i was saying in next posts that you can never really know and therefore can never pick a QB.,..hence my comment on Darnold.

 

I don’t understand. The difficulty of scouting the position coupled with the outrageous advantage conferred upon those teams that guess correctly should lead to the conclusion of taking more shots, not less. However, I’m sick and tired of going “all eggs in one basket” on a guy who has never taken an NFL snap. No excuse not to have a borderline starter talent as QB2 when breaking in a young buck.

[pointman]

I haven't given up on Zach. 

[slimjasi]

Just now, SickJetFan said:

i think the Jets set a new precedent here with the 3rd overall and 2nd overall in such proximity and such utter inept failure

Yea, the Jets tend to fail in spectacular fashion

 

[jgb]

1 minute ago, pointman said:

Stop with your reasoning, mathematical backing, and logic. 

 

Sorry my bad. 
 

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, pointman said:

I haven't given up on Zach. 

If he was drafted by the Pats we’d be guffawing our spines out of socket. Hope is fine but let’s make sure we are honest with ourselves that it is hope we are talking about here.

[Maxman]

Reminds me of the time that @T0mShane was pounding the table with joy after Terry Bradshaw drafted Mike Nugent.

[Biggs]

16 hours ago, football guy said:

I think the point is missed here. Someone claimed the QB played awful in a game in which he cited his completions to attempts as evidence. If you watch the tape, his down-to-down performance was far better than some of his best statistical performances. By no means am I saying that his overall body of work is satisfactory

Not exactly.  You claimed Beck turned him around.  I claimed your cause and effect argument was nonsense.  Zach’s issue is he can’t handle NFL defenses and he ultimately breaks down mentally and physically.   You claimed after he sat out and Beck worked with him he came back fundamentally sound.  He broke down as he got more reps against live NFL defense.   He’s had several resets and he has been better for a game or two but ultimately NFL defenses are breaking him down not the other way around.  The more Zach has played the worse he has gotten.   At some point you reverse that or you go into another field.  

[Dunnie]

On 2/8/2023 at 2:49 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

like Carroll did - he's also the one who was willing to bench his $$ FA QB for a short 3rd round rookie - but it's still the exception not the rule. 

--- supreme observation .... we don't have the coach with the cahones to do this.

[Dunnie]

8 hours ago, jgb said:

If he was drafted by the Pats we’d be guffawing our spines out of socket. Hope is fine but let’s make sure we are honest with ourselves that it is hope we are talking about here.

I fully accept that it is hope ... hope based on physical skills that have not manifested themselves on the playing field.   But those skills are real ... not hopeful.   I give him a 1 in 10 chance.

[jgb]

31 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

I fully accept that it is hope ... hope based on physical skills that have not manifested themselves on the playing field.   But those skills are real ... not hopeful.   I give him a 1 in 10 chance.

Unfortunately it’s not lack of physical skills that makes first round QBs bust. 1 in 10 is probably in the ballpark if we are talking about him being a serviceable starter at some point in his career but probably 1 in 100 at this point he becomes a franchise guy.

[maury77]

10 hours ago, jgb said:

“Airbrushed Jimmy Clausen” was my meticulously researched and carefully considered pre-draft assessment.

Sh!t, Zach even kinda looks like Clausen. 

[maury77]

9 hours ago, T0mShane said:

They should only draft QBs who have seen some sh*t and still performed on the biggest stages. If Stetson Bennett was 5” taller and 4 years younger, he’d be the perfect Jets quarterback. 

Like this guy? I agree.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

11 hours ago, jgb said:

Smelled the bust stink from a mile away but as you say you gotta take shots with premium pics on upside QBs. I was right this time but been wrong plenty before about QBs and will be wrong plenty in the future.

Hardest position in sports to scout.

JD did eff up the rest of the QB room, though.

I agree that it's the hardest position to scout, which is why the Jets, Eagles and Niners all missed the boat despite some very fine scouting departments looking closely at him as a prospect. The Niners ended up with another small school wonder in Trey Lance, so they didn't really escape the gamble. As to your amazing, preternatural predictive skills, I'm, shall I say, dubious that it came from anything more than "he looks 12 and played at BYU" type reasoning. I do think that the odds are better with a big school QB who has produced against high level college talent, but that's not guaranteed either. And the Josh Allens of the world defy pretty much all common logic about assessing college talent. I think Tom Shane was correct is saying that the scouts were enamored with Zach's big arm, ability to throw on the fly, and his intelligence. They couldn't predict how he'd do under the pressure of NFL level defensive attacks. He struggled, flashed a few big plays, then withered. And he was obviously emotionally so thoroughly unreachable that even his teammates couldn't relate. It was  a gamble and the Jets lost. Moving on will not be easy.

[LIJetsFan]

I was pretty uneasy about Zack leading up to the draft, thinking we should maybe stick with Sam and use our ammo elsewhere.  However when JD pulled his magic and got a nice haul for Sam I knew he had Zack in his sights so I tried to get on board.  Oh me oh my, the life of a Jets fan!     

[football guy]

2 hours ago, Biggs said:

Not exactly.  You claimed Beck turned him around.  I claimed your cause and effect argument was nonsense.  Zach’s issue is he can’t handle NFL defenses and he ultimately breaks down mentally and physically.   You claimed after he sat out and Beck worked with him he came back fundamentally sound.  He broke down as he got more reps against live NFL defense.   He’s had several resets and he has been better for a game or two but ultimately NFL defenses are breaking him down not the other way around.  The more Zach has played the worse he has gotten.   At some point you reverse that or you go into another field.  

Beck absolutely did. Again, go watch the tape. Watch the footwork, watch the play style, watch the decision making. Then compare it to what you saw in the NE game and the ATL/TEN games from 2021. You’re using the scoreboard and stat-line in those games to support a conclusion without actually absorbing what is going on… that’s ignorance. 

Many casual fans look at Zach’s performance against TEN in 2021 as one of his best performances… it was uplifting because there were some splash plays in a victory but I don’t see it that way. Against BUF in 2021 he had clean and urgent footwork, was going through his progressions and making the right decisions, was smart with the football, played within the offense, and threw with rythm and precision while working with practice squad players. The offensive line was awful, the run game was awful, and there were mistimed routes and dropped balls galore. If the players around him simply executed at an average clip, his stats and the end result would’ve more closely resembled his TB game than the end result we saw. 

[Jimmy 2 Times]

1 minute ago, football guy said:

Beck absolutely did. Again, go watch the tape. Watch the footwork, watch the play style, watch the decision making. Then compare it to what you saw in the NE game and the ATL/TEN games from 2021. You’re using the scoreboard and stat-line in those games to support a conclusion without actually absorbing what is going on… that’s ignorance. 

Many casual fans look at Zach’s performance against TEN in 2021 as one of his best performances… it was uplifting because there were some splash plays in a victory but I don’t see it that way. Against BUF in 2021 he had clean and urgent footwork, was going through his progressions and making the right decisions, was smart with the football, played within the offense, and threw with rythm and precision while working with practice squad players. The offensive line was awful, the run game was awful, and there were mistimed routes and dropped balls galore. If the players around him simply executed at an average clip, his stats and the end result would’ve more closely resembled his TB game than the end result we saw. 

 

 

So what are you hearing?  

Are they moving on, red shirting him, or letting him compete this fall? 

[Dunnie]

Beck absolutely did. Again, go watch the tape. Watch the footwork, watch the play style, watch the decision making. Then compare it to what you saw in the NE game and the ATL/TEN games from 2021. You’re using the scoreboard and stat-line in those games to support a conclusion without actually absorbing what is going on… that’s ignorance. 
Many casual fans look at Zach’s performance against TEN in 2021 as one of his best performances… it was uplifting because there were some splash plays in a victory but I don’t see it that way. Against BUF in 2021 he had clean and urgent footwork, was going through his progressions and making the right decisions, was smart with the football, played within the offense, and threw with rythm and precision while working with practice squad players. The offensive line was awful, the run game was awful, and there were mistimed routes and dropped balls galore. If the players around him simply executed at an average clip, his stats and the end result would’ve more closely resembled his TB game than the end result we saw. 

Any inside info on the plan ?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[football guy]

Just now, Jimmy 2 Times said:

 

 

So what are you hearing?  

Are they moving on, red shirting him, or letting him compete this fall? 

Absent acquiring Rodgers they will at least keep the door cracked open for him to prove that he deserves to play in a competition, but he would have to steal the job away from whatever veteran that is (probably Garoppolo or Tannehill). They believe he has the talent, work ethic, and IQ to eventually be a good QB (see Geno), but have no idea how long it will take for it to “click”… they also don’t know whether he’ll regain his confidence and if so how quickly. If they’re impressed with the changes they see in him from OTAs through the conclusion of the season they’ll hold on. If not, they’ll move on.

[Dunnie]

Absent acquiring Rodgers they will at least keep the door cracked open for him to prove that he deserves to play in a competition, but he would have to steal the job away from whatever veteran that is (probably Garoppolo or Tannehill). They believe he has the talent, work ethic, and IQ to eventually be a good QB (see Geno), but have no idea how long it will take for it to “click”… they also don’t know whether he’ll regain his confidence and if so how quickly. If they’re impressed with the changes they see in him from OTAs through the conclusion of the season they’ll hold on. If not, they’ll move on.

Rogers comes .. redshirt or backup ?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[Jimmy 2 Times]

12 minutes ago, football guy said:

Absent acquiring Rodgers they will at least keep the door cracked open for him to prove that he deserves to play in a competition, but he would have to steal the job away from whatever veteran that is (probably Garoppolo or Tannehill). They believe he has the talent, work ethic, and IQ to eventually be a good QB (see Geno), but have no idea how long it will take for it to “click”… they also don’t know whether he’ll regain his confidence and if so how quickly. If they’re impressed with the changes they see in him from OTAs through the conclusion of the season they’ll hold on. If not, they’ll move on.

So red shirt is the plan for 2023?

[Flea Flicking Frank]

17 minutes ago, football guy said:

Absent acquiring Rodgers they will at least keep the door cracked open for him to prove that he deserves to play in a competition, but he would have to steal the job away from whatever veteran that is (probably Garoppolo or Tannehill). They believe he has the talent, work ethic, and IQ to eventually be a good QB (see Geno), but have no idea how long it will take for it to “click”… they also don’t know whether he’ll regain his confidence and if so how quickly. If they’re impressed with the changes they see in him from OTAs through the conclusion of the season they’ll hold on. If not, they’ll move on.

Honest question, who is "they" at this point? I still don't believe we have anyone in the building who knows what the F they are doing with a young QB who needs a lot of development. 

[football guy]

1 hour ago, Dunnie said:

Any inside info on the plan ?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 

1. Recalibrate & Reflect. They wanted him to take a mental break for a few weeks. Jets still need to complete their staff and there will be more input from them back-channeled to Zach in the coming days, but this was the first step. He’s going back and forth between CA and NJ/NY, but I know he’s been seeing a sports psychologist who Drew Brees recommended (not sure of their name). 
2. Fundamental work. Every coach has a different approach to fundamentals/footwork and how its supposed to work. Luckily for Zach, Beck has a lot of relationships with the Jets/Hackett so Hackett will be able to have those detailed conversations with Beck to explain in detail what Hackett wants him to do with his feet (no different than a hitting coach). The reason why this is important is because they will want a seamless transition from his offseason to camp, with most of the fundamental work in TC through season being rooted in maintenance. The Jets feel Zach came into his rookie year with much better footwork than he did last year, and they've agreed a big reason why was because Zach's pre-draft prep. All that work was rooted in footwork and fundamentals because he didn't necessarily know who he was playing for, whereas last offseason was more weight room and playbook. They want him to lay off the playbook... act like a rookie again and balance out the prep by focusing on the fundamentals. 
3. Confidence & Consistency. They will get a few chances to speak and sneak in working sessions, but the big thing they want to see by the time OTAs come around is improved footwork and confidence. They are less worried about his mastery of the playbook or understanding everything about defense, more so want to see him arrive with a clear head and strong mechanics. They want him to be able to make the traditional throws with consistency.
4. Mentorship. If they land Aaron Rodgers (or even Jimmy G), that will give Wilson the ability to learn and absorb things at his own pace. People believe both Rodgers and Garoppolo’s personalities mesh with Wilson’s because they all learn through over-analysis and are very theoretical; despite the rap they get, both are very willing teachers/mentors and great teammates and also extremely competitive. They believe having either  go through the same programs they go through from watching tape, to working on technique, through study habits and board sessions will be helpful, and having someone that’s more engaged and willing to be a mentor to bounce questions off of will be helpful. Flacco had a good relationship with Zach and Mike but wasn’t a very good mentor—just not his  personality. 
5. Competition. They want to see Zach's intensity on every rep. They want to see him find that down-to-down consistency. Even if they have a guy like Rodgers, they want Zach to try and be better than him in practice and camp (which Zach has already alluded to). Upping the intensity and urgency while remaining composed has been what Saleh has been preaching to him. If they sign Jimmy G, it simply indicates Zach has a better chance of winning the job, but they will declare Jimmy the starter and Zach would have to steal it outright not just by physically out performing him, but showing he’s truly ready to play… they don't want him to try and rush his learning the way they did with him in the 2 previous years. If he learns fast great, but they don't want him to spend unnecessary time and energy on studying because he will have the benefit of sitting and learning at his own pace. They want a steady, consistent, sustained incline in his overall body of work.
6. Exposure. The scrimmages and preseason will be all Zach's to show that he's improved. Stats are skewed in preseason, but they will be monitoring his process and confidence levels throughout as well as his ability to handle pressure. They're going to have more intense practices as well with the focus on making their QBs feel uncomfortable and responding to it, but the preseason will probably be the time where they get to see if Zach responds well to pass rush over a 3-to-4 week period. The Jets expect to play 4 preseason games (HOF game). 
7. Adaptation. If they get this far and all goes well, the regular season will be the period where Zach can focus on the deeper mental aspects of the process and game planning, ideally without the pressure of starting. Like any other backup QB, he'd shadow the starter and have a lot of working sessions together and they'll want him to prepare as if he's starting, but without the pressure of having to. They'll test his knowledge and understanding of things and will want him to spend as much time shadowing the starter as he can. If he proves to be ready and able to deal with the pressure of starting, all the better. But the plan absolutely involves him sitting this year with a methodical process to build him back up and see what he can become by the end of the preseason. If he severely outplays who they bring in they'll have no choice but to start him, but the same will apply: be more focused on improving yourself, learn the way we expect you to play, then understand what we're asking you to do at your own pace. 

[football guy]

55 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

Rogers comes .. redshirt or backup ?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 

 

45 minutes ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

So red shirt is the plan for 2023?

They’re going to try and re-sign Mike White and my understanding is they’ll be more likely to up their offer if they settle for Garoppolo, in which case he and Zach would probably directly compete for that #2 job. If Zach were to lose to White, my guess is he’d be redshirted or moved. More likely, expect Tim Doyle to be signed as MW’s replacement. I think there’s a good chance White ends up playing with Miami or Tampa Bay. As much as MW loves it here, he’s in a position where he can earn more elsewhere that can set him and his family for years… $3-4 million the Jets will offer vs. $5-8 million on the open market is a massive difference for a guy whose made $4.5 million in 5 seasons.

[T0mShane]

13 minutes ago, football guy said:

1. Recalibrate & Reflect. They wanted him to take a mental break for a few weeks. Jets still need to complete their staff and there will be more input from them back-channeled to Zach in the coming days, but this was the first step. He’s going back and forth between CA and NJ/NY, but I know he’s been seeing a sports psychologist who Drew Brees recommended (not sure of their name). 
2. Fundamental work. Every coach has a different approach to fundamentals/footwork and how its supposed to work. Luckily for Zach, Beck has a lot of relationships with the Jets/Hackett so Hackett will be able to have those detailed conversations with Beck to explain in detail what Hackett wants him to do with his feet (no different than a hitting coach). The reason why this is important is because they will want a seamless transition from his offseason to camp, with most of the fundamental work in TC through season being rooted in maintenance. The Jets feel Zach came into his rookie year with much better footwork than he did last year, and they've agreed a big reason why was because Zach's pre-draft prep. All that work was rooted in footwork and fundamentals because he didn't necessarily know who he was playing for, whereas last offseason was more weight room and playbook. They want him to lay off the playbook... act like a rookie again and balance out the prep by focusing on the fundamentals. 
3. Confidence & Consistency. They will get a few chances to speak and sneak in working sessions, but the big thing they want to see by the time OTAs come around is improved footwork and confidence. They are less worried about his mastery of the playbook or understanding everything about defense, more so want to see him arrive with a clear head and strong mechanics. They want him to be able to make the traditional throws with consistency.
4. Mentorship. If they land Aaron Rodgers (or even Jimmy G), that will give Wilson the ability to learn and absorb things at his own pace. People believe both Rodgers and Garoppolo’s personalities mesh with Wilson’s because they all learn through over-analysis and are very theoretical; despite the rap they get, both are very willing teachers/mentors and great teammates and also extremely competitive. They believe having either  go through the same programs they go through from watching tape, to working on technique, through study habits and board sessions will be helpful, and having someone that’s more engaged and willing to be a mentor to bounce questions off of will be helpful. Flacco had a good relationship with Zach and Mike but wasn’t a very good mentor—just not his  personality. 
5. Competition. They want to see Zach's intensity on every rep. They want to see him find that down-to-down consistency. Even if they have a guy like Rodgers, they want Zach to try and be better than him in practice and camp (which Zach has already alluded to). Upping the intensity and urgency while remaining composed has been what Saleh has been preaching to him. If they sign Jimmy G, it simply indicates Zach has a better chance of winning the job, but they will declare Jimmy the starter and Zach would have to steal it outright not just by physically out performing him, but showing he’s truly ready to play… they don't want him to try and rush his learning the way they did with him in the 2 previous years. If he learns fast great, but they don't want him to spend unnecessary time and energy on studying because he will have the benefit of sitting and learning at his own pace. They want a steady, consistent, sustained incline in his overall body of work.
6. Exposure. The scrimmages and preseason will be all Zach's to show that he's improved. Stats are skewed in preseason, but they will be monitoring his process and confidence levels throughout as well as his ability to handle pressure. They're going to have more intense practices as well with the focus on making their QBs feel uncomfortable and responding to it, but the preseason will probably be the time where they get to see if Zach responds well to pass rush over a 3-to-4 week period. The Jets expect to play 4 preseason games (HOF game). 
7. Adaptation. If they get this far and all goes well, the regular season will be the period where Zach can focus on the deeper mental aspects of the process and game planning, ideally without the pressure of starting. Like any other backup QB, he'd shadow the starter and have a lot of working sessions together and they'll want him to prepare as if he's starting, but without the pressure of having to. They'll test his knowledge and understanding of things and will want him to spend as much time shadowing the starter as he can. If he proves to be ready and able to deal with the pressure of starting, all the better. But the plan absolutely involves him sitting this year with a methodical process to build him back up and see what he can become by the end of the preseason. If he severely outplays who they bring in they'll have no choice but to start him, but the same will apply: be more focused on improving yourself, learn the way we expect you to play, then understand what we're asking you to do at your own pace. 

As always, thank you for sharing this stuff. It’s always interesting and this, in particular, makes sense. That said, holy sh*t. I get that they’re trying to triage this situation as best they can, but they really need to be mindful of how much time and energy they put into Zach Wilson, because it honestly shouldn’t be this hard to get a #2 pick on his feet. This coaching staff has enough challenges ahead without having to devote this much energy into propping him up. A lot of what you’re talking about here isn’t even based on developing his football skills—they’re trying to remake him psychologically in much the same way you’d do with someone who is criminally insane. You can’t go back in time and alter his childhood development to scruff him up. At best, it will just result in transparent cosplay and he’ll always revert back to being who he is.