Cimini: LaFleur and Rex Hogan pushed for Zach, said he was better than Lawrence

[football guy]

1 minute ago, maury77 said:

Are you talking about this game? Were the people you were talking to freebasing during the conversation?

 

Yes watch it play for play and explain what was done correctly vs. incorrectly on each. If you need the All 22 for more context I can hook it up. Otherwise, there is no point discussing this further 

[football guy]

2 minutes ago, Biggs said:

I've watched 57 years of Jets football.  That's enough. 

Clearly not if you're citing a stat line as your reasoning. Explain what happened on each play and then we can have a fruitful discussion. 

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

1 hour ago, football guy said:

Not a single scout with a pair of eyes shares your opinion. Watch the tape instead of pointing to the stat line...

Zach threw the ball away 5 times and there were 4 on-target balls which were dropped... he was pressured throughout and was sacked 9 times- not coverage sacks either. I spoke to several people who actually felt he performed just as well if not better in the BUF game as he did the TB game considering the team was overmatched with 4/5ths of the OL out and backups playing throughout the offense. If you do take the time to watch the tape, you will see that his footwork and process were all there as well; by no means was accuracy the issue in that game. 

BUF was one of the best games he's played as a pro.

Having said this, he also threw for what 150 yards, and on the GW drive when they had to have it, LaFleur ran the ball 100 times in a row.

Matt Milano sat the game (injured), and Buffalo defenders were dropping like flies onto the MaimLife turf.  I believe it was a case of backups to the backups at some positions.  Their DL was on roller skates on that final drive.

[section314]

21 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Are you talking about this game? Were the people you were talking to freebasing during the conversation?

 

That td pass was a great throw.

[jgb]

28 minutes ago, football guy said:

Yes watch it play for play and explain what was done correctly vs. incorrectly on each. If you need the All 22 for more context I can hook it up. Otherwise, there is no point discussing this further 

 

28 minutes ago, football guy said:

Clearly not if you're citing a stat line as your reasoning. Explain what happened on each play and then we can have a fruitful discussion. 

 

You could’ve taken this as an opportunity to educate people and maybe bring them around to your POV…

You chose a different path.

[C Mart]

29 minutes ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

BUF was one of the best games he's played as a pro.

Having said this, he also threw for what 150 yards, and on the GW drive when they had to have it, LaFleur ran the ball 100 times in a row.

Matt Milano sat the game (injured), and Buffalo defenders were dropping like flies onto the MaimLife turf.  I believe it was a case of backups to the backups at some positions.  Their DL was on roller skates on that final drive.

FG is referring to 2021 end of season game

[Biggs]

33 minutes ago, football guy said:

Clearly not if you're citing a stat line as your reasoning. Explain what happened on each play and then we can have a fruitful discussion. 

I just watched the tape.   You should be embarrassed.  

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

2 minutes ago, C Mart said:

FG is referring to 2021 end of season game

oh dear

LOL

yeah, sorry nevermind.  Wilson was his bad self in that one.  Threw for 70 yards, like half of which came on one busted play to Crowder.

[Biggs]

45 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Are you talking about this game? Were the people you were talking to freebasing during the conversation?

 

NFL scouting departments don’t work on nepotism they work on inbreeding. 

[varjet]

• I thought Wilson looked "better" when he came back his rookie year.   We were all optimistic that, with off season training and development, Wilson would continue his improvement arc.  No one was in complete panic that Wilson was expected to start again and the backups were Flacco and White.  This was a developmental year where we expected to be 7-10 or so, show improvement and not sniff the playoffs.
• The end result of the season met expectations, but the way we got there was completely unsatisfying.
• But notwithstanding Wilsons flaws, the way he was prepared and coached was completely unacceptable.   As a general matter, when a coaching staff shows that much ineptitude they are usually fired.
• Woody is a joker.  "I know Zach Wilson better than my own children."  He was very involved, did not want Darnold's fifth year option and wanted dimples on the billboard.  
• Although Aaron Rodgers would be a long term roster disaster, he actually has a very manageable cap hit in 2023 and 2024.  If he gets cut/retires after that, the Jets have to account for alot of dead money.  But if we assume that it 2024+ picks that go to the Packers, I am seeing a classic mortgage the future move here.  Jets trade for Rodgers, he counts about $16mm against the 2023 and we keep our 2023 draft picks.  Wilson is the back up.   If Rodgers stays healthy, the Jets can easily make a run next year.  But 2025 or 2024 would be a complete mess.  

[maury77]

1 hour ago, football guy said:

Yes watch it play for play and explain what was done correctly vs. incorrectly on each. If you need the All 22 for more context I can hook it up. Otherwise, there is no point discussing this further 

Sure, provide us with the all 22 and I'll go play by play with you here on the board Schefter Jr. 

O'Sullivan breaks down Zach's all 22 from a different game and isn't very high on him either, but we all know you are more knowledgable than a former NFL QB. 

 

[slimjasi]

48 minutes ago, football guy said:

Clearly not if you're citing a stat line as your reasoning. Explain what happened on each play and then we can have a fruitful discussion. 

It's a bottom-line business. Zach Wilson hasn't played well. Actually, he's played rather poorly and certainly hasn't lived up to expectations. The Jets HC, the (now former) OC, and Zach Wilson himself have all acknowledged this publicly. Our eyes, along with an assortment of QB stats, tell us the same basic story. 

Therefore, it seems to me that the onus is on you to explain why our eyes and QB stats aren't reflective of reality, or at the very least, aren't the whole story. Not the other way around. 

[maury77]

40 minutes ago, section314 said:

That td pass was a great throw.

Yes, but 1 play does not make up for the rest. 

[maury77]

58 minutes ago, football guy said:

Clearly not if you're citing a stat line as your reasoning. Explain what happened on each play and then we can have a fruitful discussion. 

You have an incredibly high opinion of your own football acumen. 

[slimjasi]

43 minutes ago, section314 said:

That td pass was a great throw.

It was -he's made plenty of great throws. But you aren't defined by your highlights, you're defined by your ability to consistently play well, play in and play out. 

[56mehl56]

42 minutes ago, jgb said:

 

 

You could’ve taken this as an opportunity to educate people and maybe bring them around to your POV…

You chose a different path.

Oh please , you know how that would have went . Those Jet fans have their minds made up and no proof in the world would be sufficient to change it. 

[Biggs]

1 minute ago, 56mehl56 said:

Oh please , you know how that would have went . Those Jet fans have their minds made up and no proof in the world would be sufficient to change it. 

I was all in on Zach until Saleh, Lefluer, Moore, Wilson and Woody told me he sucked.  

[T0mShane]

6 hours ago, Matt39 said:

When Garrett Wilson was doing his round on radio row he told Dog more or less that Mike White knew how to talk to everyone and didn’t have an ego. He also brought up the incident where he flailed his arms after a bad pass from Zach and said he knows he can’t do that because it really upsets Wilson.

Yeah, there’s a lot of “she has a great personality, though” going on this offseason. They can say what they want, but they’re not chasing these big ticket QBs around because they think Zach will be good in three years. The chances either Saleh or Douglas are here in three years is basically, what, 15%? And even that’s probably dependent on getting Rodgers to sign on here once he comes out of his cabin.

[greenwichjetfan]

11 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

It was -he's made plenty of great throws. But you aren't defined by your highlights, you're defined by your ability to consistently play well, play in and play out. 

Define "plenty".

[56mehl56]

15 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Sure, provide us with the all 22 and I'll go play by play with you here on the board Schefter Jr. 

O'Sullivan breaks down Zach's all 22 from a different game and isn't very high on him either, but we all know you are more knowledgable than a former NFL QB. 

 

And if that former NFL QB said something to the contrary you would label him as a hack or someone sporting their own agenda ( Cough - Steve Young, Chris Simms ) .

[Long Island Leprechaun]

On 2/8/2023 at 10:38 AM, mrcoops said:

If SF offered him the bag, and JD turned it down, that alone is criminal.

Using the #2 pick on top of that on a clear bust is just the icing on the proverbial crappy cake.

So what does that say about San Francisco's scouting department and GM? Oh wait, that doesn't fit the narrative.

[56mehl56]

16 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

It's a bottom-line business. Zach Wilson hasn't played well. Actually, he's played rather poorly and certainly hasn't lived up to expectations. The Jets HC, the (now former) OC, and Zach Wilson himself have all acknowledged this publicly. Our eyes, along with an assortment of QB stats, tell us the same basic story. 

Therefore, it seems to me that the onus is on you to explain why our eyes and QB stats aren't reflective of reality, or at the very least, aren't the whole story. Not the other way around. 

I agree he hasn't played well and that's the bottom line, how he got there is the sticking point with me. 

[T0mShane]

4 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Oh please , you know how that would have went . Those Jet fans have their minds made up and no proof in the world would be sufficient to change it. 

I think the issue is that the “proof” you speak of is 100% on the side of the people who think Zach sucks, while the people who think Zach 1. Will eventually be good or 2. Will be a Jets when that happens are operating *entirely* on hopes and dreams.

[56mehl56]

3 minutes ago, Biggs said:

I was all in on Zach until Saleh, Lefluer, Moore, Wilson and Woody told me he sucked.  

And they rightfully should have said that , no arguments there. How he got there and what they did or didn't do to get to that point is the real issue . But I know , the retorts will be ZW sucks, he always sucked and always will. 

[T0mShane]

2 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

So what does that say about San Francisco's scouting department and GM? Oh wait, that doesn't fit the narrative.

They took Trey Lance.

[Biggs]

1 minute ago, 56mehl56 said:

And they rightfully should have said that , no arguments there. How he got there and what they did or didn't do to get to that point is the real issue . But I know , the retorts will be ZW sucks, he always sucked and always will. 

If that's the issue than I'm okay firing Saleh because that's the implication.  

[greenwichjetfan]

- Zach Wilson was overdrafted based on many things that I covered in the draft forum before he was even drafted, and we've now seen it play out in the NFL.

- He started immediately and has proven to be both injury prone and incredibly bad at playing NFL caliber QB

- LaFleur was the OC of a team that was 7-4 against all odds at one point and produced the OROY and also had another player in the lead for OROY before he got hurt - all of that with the above mentioned worst QB situation in the league

- Injuries to two key young studs along with a diminishing defense and the continued terrible play of one Zach Wilson and a career backup QB lead to LaFleur's firing because JD is in full self-preservation mode. 

Given all of the above, I really don't understand why we have so many people arguing that Zach can still be a great QB and was held back by the one person who's interests were most aligned with Zach's development.

[slimjasi]

6 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Define "plenty".

Enough for people to unrelentingly defend him until he's out of the league. 

My point is that "great (wow!) throws" don't make you a franchise QB - consistency does. Zach's issue is he can't do the mundane, simple stuff that you take for granted when you watch a good QB play.

[56mehl56]

2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I think the issue is that the “proof” you speak of is 100% on the side of the people who think Zach sucks, while the people who think Zach 1. Will eventually be good or 2. Will be a Jets when that happens are operating *entirely* on hopes and dreams.

Like I said no one here will be able to change your minds. If ZW ever did evolve and become a quality QB , everyone would say , well we're happy and that's all we ever wanted. And to me that's a major cop out.  People love to hide behind absolute truths on the internet where there is no repurcussion to being wrong.  

[greenwichjetfan]

2 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Enough for people to unrelentingly defend him until he's out of the league. 

My point is that "great (wow!) throws" don't make you a franchise QB - consistency does. Zach's issue is he can't do the mundane, simple stuff that you take for granted when you watch a good QB play.

I agree with you. I just take issue with the term "plenty of good throws" because although I haven't done the work on it, I'm pretty sure Zach has tallied more incompletions on screens and swings out of the backfield than he has on actual good throws anywhere on the field. 

[56mehl56]

3 minutes ago, Biggs said:

If that's the issue than I'm okay firing Saleh because that's the implication.  

If things went down like they did , then the whole organization has some culpability in the situation. I'm a bit more lenient to Saleh because he's rooted in defensive side of the ball and he seems to have gotten that area somewhat stabilized. He relied on his coaches and coordniators to do the same with the offense , looks like they dropped the ball . Saleh's mistake was either hiring his friend or protecting him when he needed the screws put to him. None of us are in FP so we can only rely on insiders and hearsay as to what really happened. 

[slimjasi]

9 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

I agree with you. I just take issue with the term "plenty of good throws" because although I haven't done the work on it, I'm pretty sure Zach has tallied more incompletions on screens and swings out of the backfield than he has on actual good throws anywhere on the field. 

Agreed - but that's why I wrote plenty of "GREAT throws" (not good ones) - I'm referring to the occasional wow/highlight plays that people post about to show that he has talent to be the guy. He makes enough spectacular plays to keep people hopeful about his potential - but I'm afraid those don't translate into being a consistently good QB. He has to learn how to process information and deliver the ball accurately consistently. And I don't think being able to make those WOW throws has any bearing on whether a guy can do that. 

[jgb]

1 hour ago, 56mehl56 said:

Oh please , you know how that would have went . Those Jet fans have their minds made up and no proof in the world would be sufficient to change it. 

PVO violation 

[Dunnie]

And they rightfully should have said that , no arguments there. How he got there and what they did or didn't do to get to that point is the real issue . But I know , the retorts will be ZW sucks, he always sucked and always will. 

Bingo .. you sir have advanced beyond the mean average intelligence here ... Please proceed with caution.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[football guy]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

 

 

You could’ve taken this as an opportunity to educate people and maybe bring them around to your POV…

You chose a different path.

Every time I do I get ripped for it so what's the point lol. Have always welcomed others to DM me if we're to get into deep analysis of what goes on during a play