Cimini: LaFleur and Rex Hogan pushed for Zach, said he was better than Lawrence

[jgb]

7 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Wait, so they had instant buyer's remorse but decided to play him anyway because they were afraid competition would show him up. I get it Zach's been putrid but this take is absurd. 

I’m hypothesizing they had a strong suspicion that his mental makeup was suspect pretty early on and thus sought to insulate him, yes. Sunken cost thinking then boxed them in from there.

Don’t worry no one is depending on this theory to send a rocket to Mars.

[bitonti]

6 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Wait, so they had instant buyer's remorse but decided to play him anyway because they were afraid competition would show him up. I get it Zach's been putrid but this take is absurd. 

contracts dictate playing time in the league

the Jets gave Zach 24 million dollars in bonus he was going to earn it one way or the other 

either that or JD has to admit to his bosses they made a terrible expensive mistake 

[56mehl56]

1 hour ago, sec101row23 said:

They may have had concerns but felt they could “coach it out him”.   Probably blinded by a workout with shorts on, not unlike Hackenberg.  

Ironically though its similar to what TL went thru with Meyer and Bevell and that changed for the better when they brought in Pedersen as HC and Press Taylor as OC.  Not all coaches and systems work for all QB's , hopefully the Jets learned that lesson with MLF. Doesn't mean ZW will evolve but at least give him a chance with a different approach. 

[56mehl56]

7 minutes ago, bitonti said:

contracts dictate playing time in the league

the Jets gave Zach 24 million dollars in bonus he was going to earn it one way or the other 

either that or JD has to admit to his bosses they made a terrible expensive mistake 

So in your eyes they covered that colossal mistake by letting him play and have the team lose , when they knew he was a lost cause . Either JD is a flaming idiot or your theory is. 

[sec101row23]

14 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Ironically though its similar to what TL went thru with Meyer and Bevell and that changed for the better when they brought in Pedersen as HC and Press Taylor as OC.  Not all coaches and systems work for all QB's , hopefully the Jets learned that lesson with MLF. Doesn't mean ZW will evolve but at least give him a chance with a different approach. 

Except Trevor was way more mechanically sound and mentally tough than Zach was.   The Urban Meyer regime was an absolute disaster, makes Saleh and his crew look like Andy Reid.   A new voice may be nice for Zach, but his issues run deeper than just hearing stuff from a new OC.  

[bitonti]

3 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

So in your eyes they covered that colossal mistake by letting him play and have the team lose , when they knew he was a lost cause . Either JD is a flaming idiot or your theory is. 

JD is not an idiot he's more like Ferris trying to get the Ferrari back in the garage 

the Jets and their employees get paid the same win or lose

they get paid by the attempt 

end of the day JD got a 6 year deal and it's not like the owners have any other alternatives or football acumen of their own 

coaches revolt but JD's move was to keep hoping Zach "takes that next step" 

it continues to be his strategy to this day 

 

[RutgersJetFan]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

JD is not an idiot he's more like Ferris trying to get the Ferrari back in the garage 

the Jets and their employees get paid the same win or lose

they get paid by the attempt 

end of the day JD got a 6 year deal and it's not like the owners have any other alternatives or football acumen of their own 

coaches revolt but JD's move was to keep hoping Zach "takes that next step" 

it continues to be his strategy to this day 

 

It's the easiest one to sell fans on, no? Drafting a QB at the top brings the mythos that fans have to accept a bare minimum of three years to see if he's any good. They sold the fanbase on four years of Sanchez for ****'s sake.

[win4ever]

I can't completely clown them for it, because Wilson had the best arm in the draft.  Just pure arm talent, he is better than Lawrence.  The issue with him is his ability to read post snap (and pre-snap too apparently, just football illiterate I guess) and his footwork.  However, those are things that many coaches feel like they can fix.  For example, Anthony Richardson is a tantalizing prospect this year, that also needs to work on post-snap reads and footwork, yet many folks think that is fixable.  

The clown part was picking him 2nd, with better options (mainly Fields) on the board.  That draft was fairly simple.  You had two guys who could step in Day 1 and play in Lawrence (his autonomy at the line of scrimmage in college was rare) and Mac Jones.  You had two guys that absolutely needed to sit in Wilson and Lance.  Then you had Fields in the middle, someone that needed to sit for his passing game, but his running game was pro-ready, so he could play in the right system.  We picked a guy that needed to sit, without any plans on sitting him, and then we're shocked he didn't fix issues or pick up the playbook.  

Wilson if he fixes his foot issues still has immense potential, but that's easier said than done.  

[56mehl56]

6 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Except Trevor was way more mechanically sound and mentally tough than Zach was.   The Urban Meyer regime was an absolute disaster, makes Saleh and his crew look like Any Reid.   A new voice may be nice for Zach, but his issues run deeper than just hearing stuff from a new OC.  

But no one knows if TL's game would have improved like it did if not for the regime change likewise moving from Nagy to Eberflus/Getsy in Chicago did for Fields. 

It's easy to bash Wilson for what he's become or how he's performed but I don't think anyone here can measure how much of a detriment MLF and the young offensive staff was to Zach's development. It may be he's extremely flawed and beyond repair but a QB drafted that high and a consensus top QB pre 2021 by most experts is worth spending a little more time with before abandoning all hope. 

[bitonti]

2 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

They sold the fanbase on four years of Sanchez for ****'s sake.

The Jets should decide who they want at QB and then do the exact opposite. No team is worse at putting together a QB room than the NYJ.

My personal favorite was the Ryan Fitz/Josh McCown/Bryce Petty era. They didn't need Mahomes they could take Jamal Adams because they had such a great QB room.

Hey, turns out they were right about Geno just like 10 years early. Zach Wilson is on the same timeline. He could be really good at 32. Given 10 years to learn how to be a pro.  

 

[jgb]

27 minutes ago, bitonti said:

JD is not an idiot he's more like Ferris trying to get the Ferrari back in the garage 

the Jets and their employees get paid the same win or lose

they get paid by the attempt 

end of the day JD got a 6 year deal and it's not like the owners have any other alternatives or football acumen of their own 

coaches revolt but JD's move was to keep hoping Zach "takes that next step" 

it continues to be his strategy to this day 

 

If I woke up one day and was GM of the jets who just drafted him, maybe I would’ve done the same thing if I thought he had NO CHANCE to withstand the pressure of having a solid backup breathing down his neck.

[bitonti]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

If I woke up one day and was GM of the jets who just drafted him, maybe I would’ve done the same thing if I thought he had NO CHANCE to withstand the pressure of having a solid backup breathing down his neck.

no veteran QB in the history of football gave a sh*t less than 2022 Joe Flacco 

[jgb]

Just now, bitonti said:

no veteran QB in the history of football gave a sh*t less than 2022 Joe Flacco 

That’s why JD traded for him. Defensible on the surface (“He was a SB MVP!”) while putting approximately zero dot zero pressure on golden boy.

[bitonti]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

That’s why JD traded for him. Defensible on the surface (“He was a SB MVP!”) while putting approximately zero dot zero pressure on golden boy.

Joe Douglas is a random number generator.

One minute he's drafting Sauce and Garrett the next he's trading for James Robinson for no apparent reason 

maybe ChatGPT should be the next GM

or like a coin that gets flipped at critical junctures 

[section314]

9 minutes ago, bitonti said:

no veteran QB in the history of football gave a sh*t less than 2022 Joe Flacco 

I say Mike Vick the year he was here and openly admitted he didn’t even prepare for the San Diego game Rex put him because he never though he would get in  comes very close.

[LIJetsFan]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't see why this is so controversial. If the young QB is the man, then he should badly outplay the stopgap (even if giving the youngster the benefit of the doubt if it's even close, since one's growth is accelerating and the other's isn't).

What's worse is a stopgap will still win games - and thus not toss away the season - until he doesn't. And if the team starts losing right away, then there's the support the draft pick will get since the team and fans alike have just seen the alternative in live action. So even if it's done to help a kid's psyche, as many suspect (correctly or otherwise), even that reason wouldn't hold water.

The idea of sparing a rookie from competition - let alone handing him the job without beating out anyone of merit - is so ridiculous. I get the idea that "hey we just burned a top 5 pick on this kid, so we can't also burn $10-15MM on a veteran, too" makes it seem like draft resources were wasted, but if initial benching was good enough for Mahomes, Watson (his off-field transgressions aside), Hurts, Jackson, Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Eli, Rivers, and plenty of others, then it'd good enough for anyone.

Yeah any young QB needs to take his lumps eventually, but there's no rule that it has to start week 1 after getting drafted. That they did this with an all-time young staff; with an OC who'd never installed an offense before nor been a full-time (or maybe not even part-time) play caller; a QBC who'd never overseen any NFL QB's success; an OL going with blocking changes that clearly weren't second-nature yet (and a LT who was ill-fit for it in the first place); and then on top of the tragic loss of Knapp who was picked to be the main offensive adult in the room (other than Benton, whose hands were full installing his OZB anyway): they had to bench him until he showed the team in practice that he was going to tear the league a new one. If that meant trading for a non-Flacco veteran QB in the summer after Knapp's accident, then so be it; heaven knows they had enough draft picks to spare to do so. As it was they went into the season with Zach and White who took all summer to beat out that stiff Morgan. That was the 2021 QB room: not one player who'd taken a snap in a game that counted, and only limited reps in a few preseason games. Then the only change a year later was having Joe Flacco all summer instead of adding him in October. FFS. 

That they had the nerve to act shocked when it blew up in their faces is the most disturbing of all.

Thank you!

The QB room has been a hot mess long before JD got here and sadly continues to be to date.  He's a damn good GM but wtf is with the QB room JD?    

[32EBoozer]

4 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

I'm not sure I'd call Conklin, Usomah, Carter, and Bam failures to put talent around Zach. When you have a horrible QB you will only get so many passing plays before a turnover on downs. 

I was only talking about drafted players.

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, Matt39 said:

Wilson didn’t need the reps. He’s perfect. Got it .

That would be the simplest and worst conclusion anyone would come through given what I wrote.  
 

[jgb]

30 minutes ago, section314 said:

I say Mike Vick the year he was here and openly admitted he didn’t even prepare for the San Diego game Rex put him because he never though he would get in  comes very close.

Rex’s teams had less discipline than my kids’ soccer team

[FTL Jet Fan]

13 hours ago, 32EBoozer said:

Was my narrative “angry”? You’re the one sounding angry.
Your previous post stated Jets should have taken the SF trade offer to take Zach. I simply mentioned it’s not that simple. JD wanted to get the Qb “in-house “ that season while he still had the ammo from the Jamaal Adams trade and build around Zach. So far it has been an abject failure except AVT, Sauce, Garrett Wilson & Breece. My plan would be exactly what we are doing. If plan A didn’t work move on to plan B…. Capable Vet Qb. Not Flacco dregs! I would prefer 1. an invested Rodgers 2. Jimmy G. or 3. Tannehill with Zach being re-built, if possible for 2025.
 

Angry? Absolutely not,  didn’t mean to come across that way. I think you might have the wrong quote I never said we should have made that trade.  I just like to discuss what the strategy should be moving forward instead of rehashing past mistakes.  I agree with what they are doing know, it is the best option if AR is ready and willing to come here to play not to create a stage for himself. 

[BeaconJet]

On 2/8/2023 at 9:10 AM, T0mShane said:

Cimini tossing up an autopsy of the Zach Wilson collapse. The usual stuff: Zach sucked, poor leader, receivers hated him, hurt by the Mike White love, etc. The three juiciest tidbits below (first one sounds like they come from Douglas himself): 

1. There was heated debate about Zach. The scouts who were skeptical of him thought he was a three year project who should sit. Allegedly, LaFleur and Rex Hogan banged the table for him. 
 

2. Douglas did turn down fat offers for the 2 pick. (the Jets have always claimed they “never talked to San Fran” about the pick). In a piece written about Jalen Hurts a few weeks ago, it was reported that the Eagles were desperate to come up for Zach, but Douglas refused, and that’s how the Eagles ended up with Hurts.

3. Zach had become a disaster in practice. One player saying that he only completed three passes in practice before the Denver game. 
 

Fun piece, if anyone still thinks Zach has a chance here. 
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35602882/why-zach-wilson-new-york-jets-career-taken-off

Hurts was drafted the year before Wilson.

Other than that, seems spot on.

[T0mShane]

3 minutes ago, BeaconJet said:

Hurts was drafted the year before Wilson.

Other than that, seems spot on.

The point was that if Zach ends up there, maybe Hurts never gets a shot at the QB1 job.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

If a number 2 overall pick will melt into a puddle of goo at the atrocity of having to compete with a Gardner Minshew or Mitch Trubisky then is he the guy you want with the ball in his hands in the 4th quarter down a score  in Buffalo on the road in December when it is 10 degrees and hostile?

I don't know for sure that's the reason why they didn't bring in someone else. It's definitely a possibility that they don't want him looking over his shoulder or something, but there are other reasons why.

Could be they just didn't think he would fail; could be they were hell-bent on having him take his lumps as a rookie in an obvious non-contender season & a veteran would just waste those reps (and be a waste on price).

There isn't a limitless supply of reasons why, and if it's either of the above two it's not good whichever it is. 

[jgb]

6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't know for sure that's the reason why they didn't bring in someone else. It's definitely a possibility that they don't want him looking over his shoulder or something, but there are other reasons why.

Could be they just didn't think he would fail; could be they were hell-bent on having him take his lumps as a rookie in an obvious non-contender season & a veteran would just waste those reps (and be a waste on price).

There isn't a limitless supply of reasons why, and if it's either of the above two it's not good whichever it is. 

Even if you think he will be a hit, guys still get hurt. Like you said either reason is the suck.

[football guy]

2 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

How does one “simplify” a quick WR screen?

I’m not blaming LaFleur or any coach for those bounce passes.

And I don’t think Wilson “lost” his mechanics.   He was mechanically flawed from the start and never improved.

He was too busy trying to “arm angle” things pretending he’s Patrick Mahomes.

There is no way you can watch Zach's first preseason and say that his mechanics were poor. They were actually very smooth and clean. They regressed throughout his rookie season and were dramatically improved when he returned from injury in his rookie season (much of that due to Beck's involvement).

As far as missing easy layup passes, the explanation for that is not so surface level as much as average fans want it to be. Our scheme put a ton of responsibility on the QB pre-snap and is demanding in certain aspects (i.e. timing), but the allure of it is that it provides clear and easy answers to questions an experienced QB may have post-snap. One of the main reasons MLF was so high on him was because he was able to handle similar responsibilities in BYU's offense, but he clearly under-estimated how the speed of the NFL would impact his ability to think clearly and perform when everything is faster and volumeous. And when you have a player who is more theoretical and curious the way Zach is paired with a coordinator who believes the QB should just do as they're told, the process that goes into each play doesn't always feel comfortable without additional context.

The process is the process- the QB is wired to go through 15 different things pre-snap every play; you don't just abandon the process because the play call is a certain type. Without adequate support from coaching, a QBs attention is will be focused on all these responsibilities, leading to more thinking, less playing. It didn't help that there was no strong communication presence/QB teacher available to help the QBs which made it even more difficult for the QBs. To make matters worse, most of the starter's preparation was in the classroom and on these responsibilities. With so much of the focus on gameplan/scheme/responsibilities (the offseason plan for the QBs that LaFleur/Calabrese had for the QBs did not emphasize the need for many mechanical corrections, and while one would assume it was common sense, this is why both Mike White and Zach Wilson entered camp with what they determined to be poor footwork...). When you reflect on all of it, it's not surprising to figure out why the footwork of our QBs rapidly broke down game-to-game for all of our QBs. The Jets goal for the new version of this offense is to simplify things with their proposed changes to the scheme + more implementation of RPO into the base package, which requires very little responsibilities/"thinking" pre-and-post snap. They will have another coach come in (Brian Johnson is still a target) who can serve as an elevated QB coach type who will be the primary coaching presence for the QBs, and that person will have a say in how they teach, coach, and maintain QB fundamentals - specifically being footwork - which will be backchannelled to the QBs so they know what they're supposed to work on in their offseason prep 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, LIJetsFan said:

Thank you!

The QB room has been a hot mess long before JD got here and sadly continues to be to date.  He's a damn good GM but wtf is with the QB room JD?    

Wilson's been terrible, but in a way if he's going to whiff on a QB at least with such a boom or bust he's made it so obvious he shouldn't be the starter in y3 that this isn't dragged on for 1-2 more years like Sanchez or even Darnold.

If you're going to suck, do it spectacularly like Clemens, Hackenberg, etc. Plus the team was going nowhere in '21 anyway, so it's really only one year lost. For a Jets fan we could lose 1 year in our sleep without it raising an eyebrow. 

Best to find out he's terrible quickly -- off like a Band-Aid (sort of a circle of life for Woody, in a sense), lol. 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

Wilson's been terrible, but in a way if he's going to whiff on a QB at least with such a boom or bust he's made it so obvious he shouldn't be the starter in y3 that this isn't dragged on for 1-2 more years like Sanchez or even Darnold.

If you're going to suck, do it spectacularly like Clemens, Hackenberg, etc. Plus the team was going nowhere in '21 anyway, so it's really only one year lost. For a Jets fan we could lose 1 year in our sleep without it raising an eyebrow. 

Best to find out he's terrible quickly -- off like a Band-Aid (sort of a circle of life for Woody, in a sense), lol. 

Lol. See...JD isn't so bad. At least he whiffed badly enough to notice it won't work out right away. 

Although I'm worried now they'll hold off on drafting another QB any time soon. 

[Matt39]

59 minutes ago, football guy said:

There is no way you can watch Zach's first preseason and say that his mechanics were poor. They were actually very smooth and clean. They regressed throughout his rookie season and were dramatically improved when he returned from injury in his rookie season (much of that due to Beck's involvement).

As far as missing easy layup passes, the explanation for that is not so surface level as much as average fans want it to be. Our scheme put a ton of responsibility on the QB pre-snap and is demanding in certain aspects (i.e. timing), but the allure of it is that it provides clear and easy answers to questions an experienced QB may have post-snap. One of the main reasons MLF was so high on him was because he was able to handle similar responsibilities in BYU's offense, but he clearly under-estimated how the speed of the NFL would impact his ability to think clearly and perform when everything is faster and volumeous. And when you have a player who is more theoretical and curious the way Zach is paired with a coordinator who believes the QB should just do as they're told, the process that goes into each play doesn't always feel comfortable without additional context.

The process is the process- the QB is wired to go through 15 different things pre-snap every play; you don't just abandon the process because the play call is a certain type. Without adequate support from coaching, a QBs attention is will be focused on all these responsibilities, leading to more thinking, less playing. It didn't help that there was no strong communication presence/QB teacher available to help the QBs which made it even more difficult for the QBs. To make matters worse, most of the starter's preparation was in the classroom and on these responsibilities. With so much of the focus on gameplan/scheme/responsibilities (the offseason plan for the QBs that LaFleur/Calabrese had for the QBs did not emphasize the need for many mechanical corrections, and while one would assume it was common sense, this is why both Mike White and Zach Wilson entered camp with what they determined to be poor footwork...). When you reflect on all of it, it's not surprising to figure out why the footwork of our QBs rapidly broke down game-to-game for all of our QBs. The Jets goal for the new version of this offense is to simplify things with their proposed changes to the scheme + more implementation of RPO into the base package, which requires very little responsibilities/"thinking" pre-and-post snap. They will have another coach come in (Brian Johnson is still a target) who can serve as an elevated QB coach type who will be the primary coaching presence for the QBs, and that person will have a say in how they teach, coach, and maintain QB fundamentals - specifically being footwork - which will be backchannelled to the QBs so they know what they're supposed to work on in their offseason prep 

Wilson threw 20 passes during his rookie preseason. Hard to take away much from that.

[56mehl56]

50 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Wilson threw 20 passes during his rookie preseason. Hard to take away much from that.

How many #1 QB's throw more than 20 passes in PS games  , regardless of if they're a Rookie or a Vet.  I know you keep getting hung up on this but playing him 3 full games in PS with guys whose future is working at McDonalds and UPS wasn't going to change a thing.  The CS needed to spend more time on the fundamentals and nuances of the game. 

[Matt39]

13 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

How many #1 QB's throw more than 20 passes in PS games  , regardless of if they're a Rookie or a Vet.  I know you keep getting hung up on this but playing him 3 full games in PS with guys whose future is working at McDonalds and UPS wasn't going to change a thing.  The CS needed to spend more time on the fundamentals and nuances of the game. 

Mac Jones threw 52 passes for reference. Wilson needed reps. He still needs them. Too late now though. 

 

[Biggs]

2 hours ago, football guy said:

There is no way you can watch Zach's first preseason and say that his mechanics were poor. They were actually very smooth and clean. They regressed throughout his rookie season and were dramatically improved when he returned from injury in his rookie season (much of that due to Beck's involvement).

 

You seem to want to bring cause and effect based on management brilliance while playing the insider card.  There could be a much simpler answer.  In his first pre-season he wasn't facing live NFL bullets from real players who were coached and schemed to confuse him.   He took a long pause and came back and was asked to do virtually nothing in a season that was pretty much a washout.  

Zach sucked in the back half of his rookie year.  He was good for 15 minutes in a game against TB.  He was 7 for 20 in the last game of his rookie season.  Beck's involvement in Zach's mechanics seemed to magically disapear the more Zach played against NFL defenses.  

 

[56mehl56]

11 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Mac Jones threw 52 passes for reference. Wilson needed reps. He still needs them. Too late now though. 

 

Yes, those 30 extra passes by Jones in PS really developed him into the superstar he is today ?

[Matt39]

19 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Yes, those 30 extra passes by Jones in PS really developed him into the superstar he is today ?

He was clearly more prepared to play than Wilson was. Going straight from the Mountain West, where he didn’t play a terrible amount either, to the NFL regular season is a massive jump. The Jets thought they could wing it with Wilson, like they did with Darnold and surprisingly it hasn’t worked. Live reps in a game environment for an extremely inexperienced player from a small conference is the only way to get better. The Jets passed on that for whatever reason. Maybe it was to hide him. I dunno.

[bla bla bla]

4 hours ago, 32EBoozer said:

I was only talking about drafted players.

Why?

[32EBoozer]

31 minutes ago, bla bla bla said:

Why?

Because that was the discussion I was having with another poster.