Cimini: LaFleur and Rex Hogan pushed for Zach, said he was better than Lawrence

[bla bla bla]

Just now, T0mShane said:

I think he and his people still have one card to play—that the Jets are a dysfunctional QB graveyard with a dipsh*t coaching staff—and they’re going to bang that drum hard if and when they bring in Rodgers. 

My understanding is the Wilson camp wants Rodgers here.

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I think he and his people still have one card to play—that the Jets are a dysfunctional QB graveyard with a dipsh*t coaching staff—and they’re going to bang that drum hard if and when they bring in Rodgers. 

[Jet Nut]

6 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

You are unclear as to why it might have been important to take a rookie quarterback who played in a hinterlands conference during lockdown whom you intend to start as a rookie and give him the maximum number of reps with NFL players in a non-pressure situation like preseason? 

Yeah and extra 15 to 20 snaps a preseason game with and against backups would have made a difference? That’s why he’s played the way he has? 

[Jet Nut]

6 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I think he and his people still have one card to play—that the Jets are a dysfunctional QB graveyard with a dipsh*t coaching staff—and they’re going to bang that drum hard if and when they bring in Rodgers. 

When has any player ever played that card and how hard would everyone come down on a player trying to play that card?

[Matt39]

11 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Throwing to backups and scrubs against backups and scrubs?  
It hasn’t worked because there wasn’t the right instruction.  

Reps are reps. He needed more than a handful of series. It’s the only way to prepare someone who was as inexperienced as he was.

[football guy]

34 minutes ago, LIJetsFan said:

The bold is a BS take.  Saleh HAD to have noticed how poorly ZW was playing preseason, between game practices, AS WELL AS during game time.  QB is the most important player on the team, right?  Hoping for miracle wins  is not the way to HC a team.  It's on Saleh.  That is his Job.  Seems to me he never did a deep dive into finding out what was what on that side of the ball. 

I think JD is safe for now but this is Saleh's last chance to get it done.  I'm tired of the good system bad execution crap.  Reminds me of Idzik, good plan extremely piss poor execution.  Enough.         

That’s where you’re wrong. Zach was playing extremely well in the preseason against vanilla defenses. He had a good rookie camp. It was the behind the scenes work that he was having issues with and when the bullets started flying against different and more complex defenses, he was late in his process and getting the ball out. Thinking too much, not seeing the field well, struggling with confidence, lack of trust in OL, less time/focus on the mechanics all led to a breakdown in his fundamentals. Good QB coaches/coordinators would’ve either (a) realized the need to give him time as a backup if they didn’t think Zach was fully grasping things behind the scenes; or (b) dialed back the offense and adjusted the timing aspect of every play in effort to play to his strengths while slowly building him up, building his confidence, and give him the opportunity to digest and process everything being thrown at him in a more steady manner. 

Greg Knapp would’ve elevated a ton of this. He had the credibility and experience to help MLF adapt and adjust his scheme and playcalling to accommodate the player. He had the temperament and communication skills required to be a “QB whisperer”. He also would’ve had Saleh’s ear and would’ve been more open and honest about things, whereas MLF’s approach was to stick his head down and avoid conflict or controversy until he was cornered to do so. There’s a lot of blame you can place on Saleh—specifically deciding against bringing in a permanent Knapp replacement last year after witnessing the discord and disfunction that occurred in the first half of 2021–but I don’t think you can blame him for every single one of MLF/Zach’s shortcomings.

[SickJetFan]

5 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Reps are reps. He needed more than a handful of series. It’s the only way to prepare someone who was as inexperienced as he was.

I dont think it would have helped.  I think if they had simplified things from beginning that may have helped.  Like that outside blocking scheme was dysfunctional for at least the 1st 5-6 games of Zach career and probably damaged his development more than anything.

[Jet Nut]

7 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Reps are reps. He needed more than a handful of series. It’s the only way to prepare someone who was as inexperienced as he was.

Except when they’re not in two preseason games.  
Starters play a couple of series in game one, so he should have played another couple of series with backups?  Game two they play a half and game three all sit? 

[y2k8]

 

Joe Douglas let himself become a victim of one of the most powerful principals of influence: the principle of social proof.

If the Eagles wanted Zach that bad - an organization he respects - he decided he should take Zach for himself, despite his misgivings. The people in the building who wanted Zach only fed into that confirmation bias.

At the end of the day, Joe Douglas wears this "generational" bust.

[SickJetFan]

3 minutes ago, y2k8 said:

 

Joe Douglas let himself become a victim of one of the most powerful principals of influence: the principle of social proof.

If the Eagles wanted Zach that bad - an organization he respects - he decided he should take Zach for himself, despite his misgivings. The people in the building who wanted Zach only fed into that confirmation bias.

At the end of the day, Joe Douglas wears this "generational" bust.

yeah JD has to have some big success here in future to escape this mess.

[jetspenguin]

23 hours ago, Matt39 said:

Someone getting paid to evaluate football players coming away with Wilson being better than Lawrence is something. 

Simms did it

 

so there's that

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

yeah JD has to have some big success here in future to escape this mess.

He did just draft the probable OROTY and DROTY and another guy who was in the early conversation before an ACL

[Jet Nut]

48 minutes ago, LIJetsFan said:

I like your take and this would be the most face saving scenario.  However if this was the case then after their rookie season  they should have been "pounding the table" as it were and demanding an upgrade in the QB room.  That, regardless of how it might have bothered Mr. Mush.  Our QB room has been a  hot mess since forever. No excuse (I'm looking at you JD) for not upgrading our QB room last year in the mush scenario. 

I think they deluded themselves into "Zack will get it in year 2" all evidence to the contrary.        

Zach played much better after returning from his injury.  There was no reason to bring in something more than a backup.  And apparently they had one, his problem was he couldn’t stay healthy.  
All the evidence was that Zach would get it, the question was to what levels.  I don’t remember all the evidence to the contrary that he would fail as badly as he did in year 2

[SickJetFan]

Just now, jgb said:

He did just draft the OROTY and DROTY and another guy who was in the early conversation before an ACL

Yeah and he had 30 picks to do that in one draft (+ the 4th overall) because for the last 4 years or so he has fielded one of the worst football teams in NFL

[jgb]

1 minute ago, SickJetFan said:

Yeah and he had 30 picks to do that in one draft (+ the 4th overall) because for the last 4 years or so he has fielded one of the worst football teams in NFL

Fair just responding to the quote that JD has to have some big success in the future by pointing out he did nail 2022 draft. 

[SickJetFan]

Just now, jgb said:

Fair just responding to the quote that JD has to have some big success in the future by pointing out he did nail 2022 draft. 

yeah he did nail 2022 draft but so did a lot of teams with lesser picks even...was a real good draft class overall.  Hoping this upcoming one is the same but he doesnt look even close.

[jgb]

Just now, SickJetFan said:

yeah he did nail 2022 draft but so did a lot of teams with lesser picks even...was a real good draft class overall.  Hoping this upcoming one is the same but he doesnt look even close.

Definitely a “what have you done for me lately” league 

[T0mShane]

1 hour ago, bla bla bla said:

My understanding is the Wilson camp wants Rodgers here.

I can see that being the case. I can see them being excited about a Rodgers signing, but I can’t see how they’d be amenable to having Zach sit for two years and hope that the Jets magnanimously decide to throw a contract at him in 2026 when there’s less than a 20% chance that Douglas or Saleh are still employed by the team. 

[maury77]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

The guy is as phony as can be. He is boxed into the “me-first/team-never” narrative (can argue if it’s overblown but it exists) so he will be all “I just want to help the team anyway I can if that’s supporting and pushing a starter in front of me that A-OK with me blah blah blah” all while his surrogates wage a knock-down, knuckle-dragging media war on his behalf… which has already begun.

As much as I absolutely detest Zach as a player, the father side of me feels a little bad for him after reading Cimini's article. Any player is going to have confidence and if an NFL team (as moronic as they may be) decide sto pick you number 2 in the draft, are you going to say no? I think Zach tries as hard as he can, he just doesn't have the mental makeup to play QB in the NFL. The Jets are to blame for not noticing that and ignoring the plethora of other red flags. 

[SickJetFan]

1 minute ago, maury77 said:

As much as I absolutely detest Zach as a player, the father side of me feels a little bad for him after reading Cimini's article. Any player is going to have confidence and if an NFL team (as moronic as they may be) decide sto pick you number 2 in the draft, are you going to say no? I think Zach tries as hard as he can, he just doesn't have the mental makeup to play QB in the NFL. The Jets are to blame for not noticing that and ignoring the plethora of other red flags. 

i blame the head bands - wore them a bit too tight

[maury77]

50 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I think he and his people still have one card to play—that the Jets are a dysfunctional QB graveyard with a dipsh*t coaching staff—and they’re going to bang that drum hard if and when they bring in Rodgers. 

Good, I hope the Jets acquiese by trading him. 

[maury77]

36 minutes ago, football guy said:

That’s where you’re wrong. Zach was playing extremely well in the preseason against vanilla defenses. He had a good rookie camp. It was the behind the scenes work that he was having issues with and when the bullets started flying against different and more complex defenses, he was late in his process and getting the ball out. Thinking too much, not seeing the field well, struggling with confidence, lack of trust in OL, less time/focus on the mechanics all led to a breakdown in his fundamentals. Good QB coaches/coordinators would’ve either (a) realized the need to give him time as a backup if they didn’t think Zach was fully grasping things behind the scenes; or (b) dialed back the offense and adjusted the timing aspect of every play in effort to play to his strengths while slowly building him up, building his confidence, and give him the opportunity to digest and process everything being thrown at him in a more steady manner. 

Greg Knapp would’ve elevated a ton of this. He had the credibility and experience to help MLF adapt and adjust his scheme and playcalling to accommodate the player. He had the temperament and communication skills required to be a “QB whisperer”. He also would’ve had Saleh’s ear and would’ve been more open and honest about things, whereas MLF’s approach was to stick his head down and avoid conflict or controversy until he was cornered to do so. There’s a lot of blame you can place on Saleh—specifically deciding against bringing in a permanent Knapp replacement last year after witnessing the discord and disfunction that occurred in the first half of 2021–but I don’t think you can blame him for every single one of MLF/Zach’s shortcomings.

They did dial back the offense and did so again last season. As far as making him the backup, I agree, but by that point in camp the Jets (stupidly) had already proclaimed him as a starter. After he played well in the preseason, IMO it is unrealistic for the team to turn around before week 1 and say "Nevermind, we aren't going to start him."

[sec101row23]

2 minutes ago, maury77 said:

As much as I absolutely detest Zach as a player, the father side of me feels a little bad for him after reading Cimini's article. Any player is going to have confidence and if an NFL team (as moronic as they may be) decide sto pick you number 2 in the draft, are you going to say no? I think Zach tries as hard as he can, he just doesn't have the mental makeup to play QB in the NFL. The Jets are to blame for not noticing that and ignoring the plethora of other red flags. 

Agreed.   I don’t think the Jets knew just how mentally soft Zach was when they drafted him.   The optics of him on the sideline with 3 coaches huddled around him during his rookie season were comical and showed him to be a coddled baby.   That also was probably the start of his teammates losing respect for him.  Ultimately his poor play led to his benching, but it took losing the locker room for Saleh to finally pull the plug on the kid.  

[maury77]

28 minutes ago, jgb said:

He did just draft the probable OROTY and DROTY and another guy who was in the early conversation before an ACL

Absolutely and the hope is that he's growing into the job; however, the Jets need to make the playoffs next year. 

[maury77]

1 minute ago, sec101row23 said:

Agreed.   I don’t think the Jets knew just how mentally soft Zach was when they drafted him.   The optics of him on the sideline with 3 coaches huddled around him during his rookie season were comical and showed him to be a coddled baby.   That also was probably the start of his teammates losing respect for him.  Ultimately his poor play led to his benching, but it took losing the locker room for Saleh to finally pull the plug on the kid.  

How the hell did they not know this? Even for me to hire a paralegal at my firm, I make them take a DISC personality test. I would love to know what the process is like for teams to evaluate that part of the player. This was yet another reason I wanted Fields. I knew he had played on big stages before. I remember when some people (during Zach's rookie camp) were comparing playing in Provo UT to playing in the NYC market. 

[sec101row23]

2 minutes ago, maury77 said:

How the hell did they not know this? Even for me to hire a paralegal at my firm, I make them take a DISC personality test. I would love to know what the process is like for teams to evaluate that part of the player. This was yet another reason I wanted Fields. I knew he had played on big stages before. I remember when some people (during Zach's rookie camp) were comparing playing in Provo UT to playing in the NYC market. 

They may have had concerns but felt they could “coach it out him”.   Probably blinded by a workout with shorts on, not unlike Hackenberg.  

[football guy]

20 minutes ago, maury77 said:

They did dial back the offense and did so again last season. As far as making him the backup, I agree, but by that point in camp the Jets (stupidly) had already proclaimed him as a starter. After he played well in the preseason, IMO it is unrealistic for the team to turn around before week 1 and say "Nevermind, we aren't going to start him."

"Dialing it back" makes it sound like there were significant changes. There weren't. MLF came in year 1 expecting a bunch of players he never worked with to grasp one of the deepest playbooks in the NFL... that's a lot to ask for. And again, declaring him starter was all part of MLF's initial confidence/evaluation that he was ready to start. If fairness to MLF Knapp felt the same way, but he also probably had a better plan to develop him/troubleshoot when necessary.

Organizationally that made no sense, so sure you can blame Douglas and Saleh for that mentality going into the season... should've at least made him compete for the job. 

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

How does one “simplify” a quick WR screen?

I’m not blaming LaFleur or any coach for those bounce passes.

And I don’t think Wilson “lost” his mechanics.   He was mechanically flawed from the start and never improved.

He was too busy trying to “arm angle” things pretending he’s Patrick Mahomes.

[Matt39]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

Except when they’re not in two preseason games.  
Starters play a couple of series in game one, so he should have played another couple of series with backups?  Game two they play a half and game three all sit? 

Wilson didn’t need the reps. He’s perfect. Got it .

[56mehl56]

4 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Yeah, I suppose that’s their best and only actionable plan moving forward, and that’s the public spin they’ve gotta put on it (along with “LaFleur was mean!”), but it’s all so pie in the sky that it’s hard to take seriously. I think Wilson and his people will get themselves out of here before they let these dopes further ruin his career by treating him like a stashed Euro player. Rodgers or Garoppolo will provide the cover for them to toss their mistake into the river when no one is looking. 

I can't really see that happening , ZW's market is basically zilch and I can't see JD just dumping cap to rid himself of Wilson. Now if someone offers him anything worthwhile in a trade JD probably jumps , but I doubt that happens. 

[56mehl56]

3 hours ago, Barton said:

Any chance Mike white returns?

Punts ? 

[bitonti]

2 hours ago, y2k8 said:

 

Joe Douglas let himself become a victim of one of the most powerful principals of influence: the principle of social proof.

If the Eagles wanted Zach that bad - an organization he respects - he decided he should take Zach for himself, despite his misgivings. The people in the building who wanted Zach only fed into that confirmation bias.

At the end of the day, Joe Douglas wears this "generational" bust.

it's also a good example of groupthink 

I can understand why people would want Wilson at 2. I disagree but I get it. Kinda

when people say he's better than Trevor Lawrence that's starting at the conclusion you want and working backward 

[Sperm Edwards]

3 hours ago, jgb said:

Exactly. What the hell was the excuse to not get Minshew as a backup when JAX was shopping him who would’ve cost less than Jets gave up for Flacco mid season? Missing on a QB is one thing it happens — hardest position to scout — but to me the real crime here is the dog shiite handling of the rest of the QB room.

Same idiocy that had us pass on Tannehill after Darnold’s shaky first season. NO MORE ALL EGGS IN ONE BASKET ON YOUNG UNPROVEN QBS!!!

I don't see why this is so controversial. If the young QB is the man, then he should badly outplay the stopgap (even if giving the youngster the benefit of the doubt if it's even close, since one's growth is accelerating and the other's isn't).

What's worse is a stopgap will still win games - and thus not toss away the season - until he doesn't. And if the team starts losing right away, then there's the support the draft pick will get since the team and fans alike have just seen the alternative in live action. So even if it's done to help a kid's psyche, as many suspect (correctly or otherwise), even that reason wouldn't hold water.

The idea of sparing a rookie from competition - let alone handing him the job without beating out anyone of merit - is so ridiculous. I get the idea that "hey we just burned a top 5 pick on this kid, so we can't also burn $10-15MM on a veteran, too" makes it seem like draft resources were wasted, but if initial benching was good enough for Mahomes, Watson (his off-field transgressions aside), Hurts, Jackson, Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Eli, Rivers, and plenty of others, then it'd good enough for anyone.

Yeah any young QB needs to take his lumps eventually, but there's no rule that it has to start week 1 after getting drafted. That they did this with an all-time young staff; with an OC who'd never installed an offense before nor been a full-time (or maybe not even part-time) play caller; a QBC who'd never overseen any NFL QB's success; an OL going with blocking changes that clearly weren't second-nature yet (and a LT who was ill-fit for it in the first place); and then on top of the tragic loss of Knapp who was picked to be the main offensive adult in the room (other than Benton, whose hands were full installing his OZB anyway): they had to bench him until he showed the team in practice that he was going to tear the league a new one. If that meant trading for a non-Flacco veteran QB in the summer after Knapp's accident, then so be it; heaven knows they had enough draft picks to spare to do so. As it was they went into the season with Zach and White who took all summer to beat out that stiff Morgan. That was the 2021 QB room: not one player who'd taken a snap in a game that counted, and only limited reps in a few preseason games. Then the only change a year later was having Joe Flacco all summer instead of adding him in October. FFS. 

That they had the nerve to act shocked when it blew up in their faces is the most disturbing of all.

[56mehl56]

3 hours ago, jgb said:

I think deep down they knew he was a mush and would spiral to bad town if they brought in legit competition/dealt him any perceived adversity whatsoever. My guess is they basically had near-instant buyer’s remorse after getting to know him outside of controlled interviews and were stuck kid gloving.

Wait, so they had instant buyer's remorse but decided to play him anyway because they were afraid competition would show him up. I get it Zach's been putrid but this take is absurd. 

[jgb]

55 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't see why this is so controversial. If the young QB is the man, then he should badly outplay the stopgap (even if giving the youngster the benefit of the doubt if it's even close, since one's growth is accelerating and the other's isn't).

What's worse is a stopgap will still win games - and thus not toss away the season - until he doesn't. And if the team starts losing right away, then there's the support the draft pick will get since the team and fans alike have just seen the alternative in live action. So even if it's done to help a kid's psyche, as many suspect (correctly or otherwise), even that reason wouldn't hold water.

The idea of sparing a rookie from competition - let alone handing him the job without beating out anyone of merit - is so ridiculous. I get the idea that "hey we just burned a top 5 pick on this kid, so we can't also burn $10-15MM on a veteran, too" makes it seem like draft resources were wasted, but if initial benching was good enough for Mahomes, Watson (his off-field transgressions aside), Hurts, Jackson, Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Eli, Rivers, and plenty of others, then it'd good enough for anyone.

Yeah any young QB needs to take his lumps eventually, but there's no rule that it has to start week 1 after getting drafted. That they did this with an all-time young staff; with an OC who'd never installed an offense before nor been a full-time (or maybe not even part-time) play caller; a QBC who'd never overseen any NFL QB's success; an OL going with blocking changes that clearly weren't second-nature yet (and a LT who was ill-fit for it in the first place); and then on top of the tragic loss of Knapp who was picked to be the main offensive adult in the room (other than Benton, whose hands were full installing his OZB anyway): they had to bench him until he showed the team in practice that he was going to tear the league a new one. If that meant trading for a non-Flacco veteran QB in the summer after Knapp's accident, then so be it; heaven knows they had enough draft picks to spare to do so. As it was they went into the season with Zach and White who took all summer to beat out that stiff Morgan. That was the 2021 QB room: not one player who'd taken a snap in a game that counted, and only limited reps in a few preseason games. Then the only change a year later was having Joe Flacco all summer instead of adding him in October. FFS. 

That they had the nerve to act shocked when it blew up in their faces is the most disturbing of all.

If a number 2 overall pick will melt into a puddle of goo at the atrocity of having to compete with a Gardner Minshew or Mitch Trubisky then is he the guy you want with the ball in his hands in the 4th quarter down a score  in Buffalo on the road in December when it is 10 degrees and hostile?