Cimini: LaFleur and Rex Hogan pushed for Zach, said he was better than Lawrence

[56mehl56]

1 hour ago, Matt39 said:

He was clearly more prepared to play than Wilson was. Going straight from the Mountain West, where he didn’t play a terrible amount either, to the NFL regular season is a massive jump. The Jets thought they could wing it with Wilson, like they did with Darnold and surprisingly it hasn’t worked. Live reps in a game environment for an extremely inexperienced player from a small conference is the only way to get better. The Jets passed on that for whatever reason. Maybe it was to hide him. I dunno.

But they didn't. That was the plan for starting him from game 1 , to give him valuable reps and let him grow in a season no one had any high expectations for. The problem with that in hindsight wasn't in giving him the reps, it was the dysfunction of the CS and the fact that ZW never seemed to grow from the experience.  Many will argue he sucks and that's the only reason he floundered , I happen to feel that's very short sighted and with proper guidance and usage can still be a very good QB.  We don't have to look very far then in our stadium for a prime example Daniel Jones . Hooking him up with Daboll and Kafka salvaged what many pundits and Giants fans were considering their very own draft bust. 

[Cbucco19]

4 hours ago, football guy said:

There is no way you can watch Zach's first preseason and say that his mechanics were poor. They were actually very smooth and clean. They regressed throughout his rookie season and were dramatically improved when he returned from injury in his rookie season (much of that due to Beck's involvement).

As far as missing easy layup passes, the explanation for that is not so surface level as much as average fans want it to be. Our scheme put a ton of responsibility on the QB pre-snap and is demanding in certain aspects (i.e. timing), but the allure of it is that it provides clear and easy answers to questions an experienced QB may have post-snap. One of the main reasons MLF was so high on him was because he was able to handle similar responsibilities in BYU's offense, but he clearly under-estimated how the speed of the NFL would impact his ability to think clearly and perform when everything is faster and volumeous. And when you have a player who is more theoretical and curious the way Zach is paired with a coordinator who believes the QB should just do as they're told, the process that goes into each play doesn't always feel comfortable without additional context.

The process is the process- the QB is wired to go through 15 different things pre-snap every play; you don't just abandon the process because the play call is a certain type. Without adequate support from coaching, a QBs attention is will be focused on all these responsibilities, leading to more thinking, less playing. It didn't help that there was no strong communication presence/QB teacher available to help the QBs which made it even more difficult for the QBs. To make matters worse, most of the starter's preparation was in the classroom and on these responsibilities. With so much of the focus on gameplan/scheme/responsibilities (the offseason plan for the QBs that LaFleur/Calabrese had for the QBs did not emphasize the need for many mechanical corrections, and while one would assume it was common sense, this is why both Mike White and Zach Wilson entered camp with what they determined to be poor footwork...). When you reflect on all of it, it's not surprising to figure out why the footwork of our QBs rapidly broke down game-to-game for all of our QBs. The Jets goal for the new version of this offense is to simplify things with their proposed changes to the scheme + more implementation of RPO into the base package, which requires very little responsibilities/"thinking" pre-and-post snap. They will have another coach come in (Brian Johnson is still a target) who can serve as an elevated QB coach type who will be the primary coaching presence for the QBs, and that person will have a say in how they teach, coach, and maintain QB fundamentals - specifically being footwork - which will be backchannelled to the QBs so they know what they're supposed to work on in their offseason prep 

Yep !! The media was blowing rookie Zach in preseason !! They said he looked like the best Qb and next best thing .. sadly I thought that also ???

[bla bla bla]

25 minutes ago, 32EBoozer said:

Because that was the discussion I was having with another poster.

Ah okay, I must have caught the tail end. I thought I was about to get into an argument about drafted talent vs finding talent haha

[bla bla bla]

4 hours ago, football guy said:

They will have another coach come in (Brian Johnson is still a target) who can serve as an elevated QB coach type who will be the primary coaching presence for the QBs, and that person will have a say in how they teach, coach, and maintain QB fundamentals - specifically being footwork - which will be backchannelled to the QBs so they know what they're supposed to work on in their offseason prep 

Brian Johnson would be a great grab. Became an OC at 24 years old in college. QB Coach for Dak Prescott, Kyle Trask, and Jalen Hurts - sign me up if he's an option. I thought he'd be poached for an OC job.

[32EBoozer]

1 hour ago, bla bla bla said:

Brian Johnson would be a great grab. Became an OC at 24 years old in college. QB Coach for Dak Prescott, Kyle Trask, and Jalen Hurts - sign me up if he's an option. I thought he'd be poached for an OC job.

He’ll need to be paid near to what a new OC would be paid to walk into this sh!tshow Qb room.

[bla bla bla]

4 hours ago, 32EBoozer said:

He’ll need to be paid near to what a new OC would be paid to walk into this sh!tshow Qb room.

Oo 100%, he should not be considering us at all IMO

[LIJetsFan]

6 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

But they didn't. That was the plan for starting him from game 1 , to give him valuable reps and let him grow in a season no one had any high expectations for. The problem with that in hindsight wasn't in giving him the reps, it was the dysfunction of the CS and the fact that ZW never seemed to grow from the experience.  Many will argue he sucks and that's the only reason he floundered , I happen to feel that's very short sighted and with proper guidance and usage can still be a very good QB.  We don't have to look very far then in our stadium for a prime example Daniel Jones . Hooking him up with Daboll and Kafka salvaged what many pundits and Giants fans were considering their very own draft bust. 

Why are you beating a dead horse?  ZW suks till he proves he doesn't.  He was way way way over drafted.  Maybe a red shirt year 3 will help but that is a very very long shot.  IMHO I'd guestimate 50-1.  What's your take on his odds of "making it"?

[Dunnie]

Why are you beating a dead horse?  ZW suks till he proves he doesn't.  He was way way way over drafted.  Maybe a red shirt year 3 will help but that is a very very long shot.  IMHO I'd guestimate 50-1.  What's your take on his odds of "making it"?

I give him a 10-1 shot

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[Beerfish]

LaFleur and Hogan pushed for Breece Hall and Garret Wilson.

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

LOL the owner taking an indirect dump all over ZW

“The weakness was in the QB position”

”our defense will look that much better with a QB that’s actually doing it”

Doesn’t exactly sound like Kapono’s #1 fan

[jgb]

3 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

LOL the owner taking an indirect dump all over ZW

“The weakness was in the QB position”

”our defense will look that much better with a QB that’s actually doing it”

Doesn’t exactly sound like Kapono’s #1 fan

And no one will ever contradict him by pointing out he was a likely driving force in drafting the guy in the first place. When you’re a billionaire there’s never a shortage of people willing to get thrown under the money bus on your behalf.

[T0mShane]

4 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

LOL the owner taking an indirect dump all over ZW

“The weakness was in the QB position”

”our defense will look that much better with a QB that’s actually doing it”

Doesn’t exactly sound like Kapono’s #1 fan

Man, whatever happened with Zach inside that building must have been egregious, because everyone in the building refers to him in the past tense, other than a pithy “uhh we still believe in him but” every so often. Occam’s Razor would suggest that he was even worse as a leader than he was as a player, because no way does a team talk this way about a player they think can still help them. The body isn’t even cold and Woody is out here talking about emptying the bank for a replacement.

[jgb]

8 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Man, whatever happened with Zach inside that building must have been egregious, because everyone in the building refers to him in the past tense, other than a pithy “uhh we still believe in him but” every so often. Occam’s Razor would suggest that he was even worse as a leader than he was as a player, because no way does a team talk this way about a player they think can still help them. The body isn’t even cold and Woody is out here talking about emptying the bank for a replacement.

The silence from the locker room after his “no” press conference was deafening and damning as was the players’ Instant and over-the-top embrasure of Mike White.

It almost felt as that was more about giving the finger to BYU than actually believing in White.

[T0mShane]

28 minutes ago, jgb said:

The silence from the locker room after his “no” press conference was deafening and damning as was the players’ Instant and over-the-top embrasure of Mike White.

It almost felt as that was more about giving the finger to BYU than actually believing in White.

Rosenblatt’s reporting made it seem like the locker room went full Mardi Gras when Saleh announced White was starting, all in Zach’s face. They ain’t doing that because of some messy footwork.

[Matt39]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Rosenblatt’s reporting made it seem like the locker room went full Mardi Gras when Saleh announced White was starting, all in Zach’s face. They ain’t doing that because of some messy footwork.

When Garrett Wilson was doing his round on radio row he told Dog more or less that Mike White knew how to talk to everyone and didn’t have an ego. He also brought up the incident where he flailed his arms after a bad pass from Zach and said he knows he can’t do that because it really upsets Wilson.

[32EBoozer]

47 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Man, whatever happened with Zach inside that building must have been egregious, because everyone in the building refers to him in the past tense, other than a pithy “uhh we still believe in him but” every so often. Occam’s Razor would suggest that he was even worse as a leader than he was as a player, because no way does a team talk this way about a player they think can still help them. The body isn’t even cold and Woody is out here talking about emptying the bank for a replacement.

Zach needs to understand that performance trumps leadership. You want to win over the locker room? …. Come back to camp stronger, meaner & with a humble attitude but with a fire in your belly. Hit receivers in stride in tight windows, command the huddle, make the right audible and march the team up & down the field consistently. Be ready when your number gets called. Winning back the locker room will happen quickly when you become a “DAWG”! 
 

Nothing you can do but leave the last 2 years behind you and move forward with focus.

[Rich Thornburgh]

On 2/8/2023 at 9:23 AM, T0mShane said:

Lots of inconsistencies with this story, though. LaFleur wanted him, but was also the guy pushing to bench him? And Douglas was powerless to 1. Not take a deal, 2. Trade Darnold two days after the Pro Day and 3. Not bring in a vet? Sounds like a lot of CYA over there

This story is 100% bs

[maury77]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Man, whatever happened with Zach inside that building must have been egregious, because everyone in the building refers to him in the past tense, other than a pithy “uhh we still believe in him but” every so often. Occam’s Razor would suggest that he was even worse as a leader than he was as a player, because no way does a team talk this way about a player they think can still help them. The body isn’t even cold and Woody is out here talking about emptying the bank for a replacement.

Those that are still hoping Zach can work out his footwork issues (as if that's the only issue he's dealing with) are glossing over the fact that once you lose a locker room, its almost impossible to get that back. A lot of those players are probably thinking "oh sh!t" whenever they see Zach putting his helmet on to go into the game. I don't see how you come back from that. 

[Dunnie]

Just now, maury77 said:

Those that are still hoping Zach can work out his footwork issues (as if that's the only issue he's dealing with) are glossing over the fact that once you lose a locker room, its almost impossible to get that back. A lot of those players are probably thinking "oh sh!t" whenever they see Zach putting his helmet on to go into the game. I don't see how you come back from that. 

This just in GW and Sauce both support ZW and hopes he works his way back.

[jgb]

59 minutes ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

This story is 100% bs

T0m may be guilty of exaggerating but the MW t-shirts are incontrovertible evidence of ebullience at the switch.

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

This just in GW and Sauce both support ZW and hopes he works his way back.

It’s easy to hope for a guy when you’re not trying to pluck his turnips out of the dirt.

[Bugg]

23 hours ago, football guy said:

"Dialing it back" makes it sound like there were significant changes. There weren't. MLF came in year 1 expecting a bunch of players he never worked with to grasp one of the deepest playbooks in the NFL... that's a lot to ask for. And again, declaring him starter was all part of MLF's initial confidence/evaluation that he was ready to start. If fairness to MLF Knapp felt the same way, but he also probably had a better plan to develop him/troubleshoot when necessary.

Organizationally that made no sense, so sure you can blame Douglas and Saleh for that mentality going into the season... should've at least made him compete for the job. 

Every NFL team has a deep playbook to a point. These players have been doing roughly the same kinds of things in every camp since high school. It's not reinventing the wheel every year. They know WCO, zone blocking, a sweep, a waggle, it's all the same thing, repackaged. Either Zach Wilson can do this, or he can';t take a 3 step drop, make your read, get the ball out in under 2.6 seconds.

Always found this "we're installing the offense" thing a weak ridiculous excuse. Season starts every September. Be ready or go f__ yourself. And the jets unlike any organization I know of, indulge this crap every time a new regime gets here. 

[Bugg]

6 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

LOL the owner taking an indirect dump all over ZW

“The weakness was in the QB position”

”our defense will look that much better with a QB that’s actually doing it”

Doesn’t exactly sound like Kapono’s #1 fan

And...do NOTHING to see the jets sign a real QB. Thanks for nothing, Richie Rich. 

[Ex-Rex]

On 2/8/2023 at 9:29 AM, sourceworx said:

This could all be true, but in the end the buck stops with JD. He makes the decisions in the end. 

It was very premature to deal Darnold first of all. Jets did NOTHING to help his development as he had ZERO good WR's or RB's to work with. JD is the one who ultimately made the selection but Lafleur is the one who failed to develop ZW properly. Maybe ZW is uncoachable, IDK the inside workings of the team but it would seem to me that if ZW has all this talent that they (Lefleur) should have gotten much more out of him.

[football guy]

19 hours ago, Biggs said:

You seem to want to bring cause and effect based on management brilliance while playing the insider card.  There could be a much simpler answer.  In his first pre-season he wasn't facing live NFL bullets from real players who were coached and schemed to confuse him.   He took a long pause and came back and was asked to do virtually nothing in a season that was pretty much a washout.  

Zach sucked in the back half of his rookie year.  He was good for 15 minutes in a game against TB.  He was 7 for 20 in the last game of his rookie season.  Beck's involvement in Zach's mechanics seemed to magically disapear the more Zach played against NFL defenses.  

 

Not a single scout with a pair of eyes shares your opinion. Watch the tape instead of pointing to the stat line...

Zach threw the ball away 5 times and there were 4 on-target balls which were dropped... he was pressured throughout and was sacked 9 times- not coverage sacks either. I spoke to several people who actually felt he performed just as well if not better in the BUF game as he did the TB game considering the team was overmatched with 4/5ths of the OL out and backups playing throughout the offense. If you do take the time to watch the tape, you will see that his footwork and process were all there as well; by no means was accuracy the issue in that game. 

[football guy]

17 hours ago, bla bla bla said:

Brian Johnson would be a great grab. Became an OC at 24 years old in college. QB Coach for Dak Prescott, Kyle Trask, and Jalen Hurts - sign me up if he's an option. I thought he'd be poached for an OC job.

Don't think they will get him, but as soon as the postseason began he told teams he would not interview again until the Eagles' season concluded. The Jets spoke to him during the bye week and there was a lot of interest. I just worry that he won't want the job

[WhartonJet]

16 minutes ago, football guy said:

Don't think they will get him, but as soon as the postseason began he told teams he would not interview again until the Eagles' season concluded. The Jets spoke to him during the bye week and there was a lot of interest. I just worry that he won't want the job

Great insight, thank you.  Do you see this as a situation where the Jets are waiting until after the SuperBowl to target Johnson for QB coach/Senior Offensive assistant, and will move on to other names if he is not interested?  

[football guy]

Woody is giving the elevator pitch on the team's thinking here and also debunking a lot of the popular narratives while also supporting what some of us have been saying on here all along. 

1. Woody has no allegiance to Zach; any suggestion that he's forcing Douglas and Saleh to hold onto him is utter BS. The football people want to keep Zach because they feel he can be a special QB if he can take time to develop and get back on track mentally. Woody isn't looking at the situation the same way they are, but he supports their direction (to acquire a veteran and make Zach truly prove he belongs- if he does he'll eventually regain the job; if not they will move on). 
2. Management of the QB room was a very big issue. How Mike LaFleur and Rob Calabrese approached day-to-day and offseason work was not conducive to a successful unit. Zach and Mike came into the offseason program looking worse than they did to end 2021, and all the QBs had rapid regressions in their mechanics and fundamentals from start-to-start throughout the year. The approach with Zach and Mike was the same: go off to the side and figure out your footwork (in Mike's case it was weeks 5-8, Zach's was week's 12-14). Moreso, communication was a significant issue. Specifically, MLF struggled with communication down to the players and up to the HC. Both Mike and Rob were somewhat conflict avoidant and shied away from shedding light on what were issues they perceived which maybe others weren't entirely privy to. They also did not foster a room that gave room for the player's to provide their own feedback or engage in back-and-forth communication. Zach is the type of person who will spend hours upon hours trying to understand things until he gets it- that's what Beck provided for him last year... they put in a ton of one-on-one overtime work to study specific plays and work on fundamental corrections. This isn't foreign to other team's treatments of their own QBs, but MLF (and Calabrese) did not foster the room this way. I don't disagree with the mentality that the QB is only 1-of-52, but the reality is they do need special treatment. Mike LaFleur did not see things that way and felt burdened by it. Sure they had "Flight School", but that's not enough... they wanted the QBs to do as they were told, and MLF wanted Calabrese to deal with the day-to-day stuff. It just did not work. 
3. A lot of the mismanagement had to do with MLF's management style (preferring to be more hands off on the day-to-day with more emphasis on philosophy/scheme) + Calabrese's inexperience (he's not known as a fundamentally driven coach, rather, has a reputation for being a good game planner and scheme designer, much like MLF). Neither of these guys are teachers or communicators, both are introverted and kind of went by the book; they did not know how to dig deeper and extract more out of the players (specifically QBs) and that is what was so desperately missed when Greg Knapp tragically died. Hackett is the polar opposite; he's very engaging and extroverted, as well as a good communicator. The hope is they can bring in a "QB guru" like Brian Johnson to serve in an elevated passing game capacity to help bolster the room as well. 
4. Woody very clearly wants Aaron Rodgers. If it's not him its more likely than not going to be Jimmy Garoppolo. The intent is that those guys can win now while also allowing guys like Zach Wilson (and potentially Mike White) to continue developing behind them at their own pace. 

[section314]

12 minutes ago, football guy said:

Woody is giving the elevator pitch on the team's thinking here and also debunking a lot of the popular narratives while also supporting what some of us have been saying on here all along. 

1. Woody has no allegiance to Zach; any suggestion that he's forcing Douglas and Saleh to hold onto him is utter BS. The football people want to keep Zach because they feel he can be a special QB if he can take time to develop and get back on track mentally. Woody isn't looking at the situation the same way they are, but he supports their direction (to acquire a veteran and make Zach truly prove he belongs- if he does he'll eventually regain the job; if not they will move on). 
2. Management of the QB room was a very big issue. How Mike LaFleur and Rob Calabrese approached day-to-day and offseason work was not conducive to a successful unit. Zach and Mike came into the offseason program looking worse than they did to end 2021, and all the QBs had rapid regressions in their mechanics and fundamentals from start-to-start throughout the year. The approach with Zach and Mike was the same: go off to the side and figure out your footwork (in Mike's case it was weeks 5-8, Zach's was week's 12-14). Moreso, communication was a significant issue. Specifically, MLF struggled with communication down to the players and up to the HC. Both Mike and Rob were somewhat conflict avoidant and shied away from shedding light on what were issues they perceived which maybe others weren't entirely privy to. They also did not foster a room that gave room for the player's to provide their own feedback or engage in back-and-forth communication. Zach is the type of person who will spend hours upon hours trying to understand things until he gets it- that's what Beck provided for him last year... they put in a ton of one-on-one overtime work to study specific plays and work on fundamental corrections. This isn't foreign to other team's treatments of their own QBs, but MLF (and Calabrese) did not foster the room this way. I don't disagree with the mentality that the QB is only 1-of-52, but the reality is they do need special treatment. Mike LaFleur did not see things that way and felt burdened by it. Sure they had "Flight School", but that's not enough... they wanted the QBs to do as they were told, and MLF wanted Calabrese to deal with the day-to-day stuff. It just did not work. 
3. A lot of the mismanagement had to do with MLF's management style (preferring to be more hands off on the day-to-day with more emphasis on philosophy/scheme) + Calabrese's inexperience (he's not known as a fundamentally driven coach, rather, has a reputation for being a good game planner and scheme designer, much like MLF). Neither of these guys are teachers or communicators, both are introverted and kind of went by the book; they did not know how to dig deeper and extract more out of the players (specifically QBs) and that is what was so desperately missed when Greg Knapp tragically died. Hackett is the polar opposite; he's very engaging and extroverted, as well as a good communicator. The hope is they can bring in a "QB guru" like Brian Johnson to serve in an elevated passing game capacity to help bolster the room as well. 
4. Woody very clearly wants Aaron Rodgers. If it's not him its more likely than not going to be Jimmy Garoppolo. The intent is that those guys can win now while also allowing guys like Zach Wilson (and potentially Mike White) to continue developing behind them at their own pace. 

Why is that dolt Calabrrse still here? Also,Johnson may get bumped to OC if the current guy gets hired after the game.

[Biggs]

1 hour ago, football guy said:

Not a single scout with a pair of eyes shares your opinion. Watch the tape instead of pointing to the stat line...

Zach threw the ball away 5 times and there were 4 on-target balls which were dropped... he was pressured throughout and was sacked 9 times- not coverage sacks either. I spoke to several people who actually felt he performed just as well if not better in the BUF game as he did the TB game considering the team was overmatched with 4/5ths of the OL out and backups playing throughout the offense. If you do take the time to watch the tape, you will see that his footwork and process were all there as well; by no means was accuracy the issue in that game. 

After Zach came back from injury he had 2 games with QBR in the high 50's, one in the mid 60's and 3 in the 80's.   He was an inconsistent mess from week to week.   We had 4 first downs in the Buffalo game he took 9 sacks for minus 89 yards and had a QB rating of 66 which for him was actually good.  

He was a mess as was the Offensive unit.  Sadly between Josh Johnson, Mike White and Joe Flacco who all got in games that year Zach still had the worst QB rating and they all had games with higher QB ratings than Zach best game.  

The not a single scout with a pair of eyes lines sounds a lot like an insider shilling to maintain access.  This is a common problem with embeded press in every aspect of the media.  Some of them feel having access requires a level of shilling for the people giving them access.   

Sorry to say because you have some good takes but this really feels like you're a shill for the organization.  

[football guy]

10 minutes ago, section314 said:

Why is that dolt Calabrrse still here? Also,Johnson may get bumped to OC if the current guy gets hired after the game.

Calabrese is still here because he was put in an unfair spot. He's very green and they knew that was the case when they hired him. They believe he has a lot of upside from a coordinator perspective, but they originally figured Knapp would help support/develop him given his lack of experience coaching QBs. He's a bright mind with a good overall feel for scheme/play design/game planning/play-calling, so they figured that if MLF were to succeed and get a HC job, Calabrese would be next in line to become a future OC. 

They still feel about him the way they did when they hired him; he's only 32 years old. The intent is to hire someone to replace Knapp (I know they love Johnson; could be Marcus Brady, Kliff Kubiak, or someone else as well) to serve as the de facto QB coach with an elevated responsibility (such as Pass Game Coordinator) while either keeping Calabrese at QB coach or reassigning him to another role. It really depends who is available when things start to shake out... I know there's a possibility they move Calabrese to another position and bring in a PGC + new QB coach as well. 

[football guy]

2 minutes ago, Biggs said:

After Zach came back from injury he had 2 games with QBR

Watch. The. Tape. If you need an All-22 access I'll happily share mine. DM me, but please for the love of god, don't try to make compelling points by pointing at stats as your backup 

[maury77]

1 hour ago, football guy said:

Not a single scout with a pair of eyes shares your opinion. Watch the tape instead of pointing to the stat line...

Zach threw the ball away 5 times and there were 4 on-target balls which were dropped... he was pressured throughout and was sacked 9 times- not coverage sacks either. I spoke to several people who actually felt he performed just as well if not better in the BUF game as he did the TB game considering the team was overmatched with 4/5ths of the OL out and backups playing throughout the offense. If you do take the time to watch the tape, you will see that his footwork and process were all there as well; by no means was accuracy the issue in that game. 

Are you talking about this game? Were the people you were talking to freebasing during the conversation?

 

[maury77]

Just now, football guy said:

Watch. The. Tape. 

The.tape.sucks. 

[Biggs]

Just now, football guy said:

Watch. The. Tape. 

I've watched 57 years of Jets football.  That's enough.