Our All World Elite defense is so overrated....

[Adoni Beast]

1 minute ago, Beerfish said:

Nonsense.   Tough to win games?  Yes 100% agreed, we are not winning due to the offense.

But some of these stats and rankings are not related to the offense.

How does the offense make us 26th ranked on 3rd downs and tied for the league in roughing the passer?

Because the D gets gassed by constantly having to be on the field and try and win games while the offense can’t even sustain drives and run the clocks. Do I think our D is elite? No but I do think it’s very good and certainly good enough to win a Super Bowl with (with a an average to good offense).

[Barry McCockinner]

4 hours ago, Larz said:

No one ever said it was all world elite. If you can’t comprehend how the worst offense in NFL history impacts the defense that’s a you problem not a me problem lol 

Beerfish is a smart guy. He knows there is a symbiotic relationship between offense and defense but will never acknowledge it on here for some strange reason. Not worth putting effort into tbh. This is just a thing for him

[Hex]

I mean, would I try if I have no faith in the offense, CS, or front office?

[LSJF]

4 hours ago, Beerfish said:

15th in yards per game

31st in run defense

18th on points allowed

26th in 3rd down defense

Tied for 20th in sacks

Tied for the league lead in roughing the passer penalties

(Wail!) Oh but it is not their fault that our offense is poor!!!!!

'Elite' defenses over come poor offenses, get off the field on 3rd down, stop the run and do not take endless awful penalties.

This is not close to an elite defense, a good defense?   Only at some things, pass defense is pretty good, red zone D is pretty good.

Cleveland has an 'elite' defense and we sure as hell are not in their league.

Come at me bros!  I shall bathe in all of your thumbs down votes as I bathe in the souls of my enemies!

 

This is such a bad Take for so many reasons already posted … Really awful post…

maybe stick to Zach sucks threads?

[GangGreened]

3 minutes ago, Hex said:

I mean, would I try if I have no faith in the offense, CS, or front office?

Especially when you’re being fed lines like “we can’t lose the game if their offense can’t score” by your coaches. Completely the wrong message to send 

[Beerfish]

13 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Beerfish is a smart guy. He knows there is a symbiotic relationship between offense and defense but will never acknowledge it on here for some strange reason. Not worth putting effort into tbh. This is just a thing for him

The offense is the reason we are not winning.   True

A bad offense makes it tougher for a defense.  True

Some D metrics stand on their own and have little to do with the other side of the ball.  True

The defense though debate-ably 'good' is for sure not elite.  True

[GangGreened]

1 minute ago, Beerfish said:

The offense is the reason we are not winning.   True

A bad offense makes it tougher for a defense.  True

Some D metrics stand on their own and have little to do with the other side of the ball.  True

The defense though debate-ably 'good' is for sure not elite.  True

Who would you say are the top 5 defenses in the league?

[Beerfish]

3 minutes ago, LSJF said:

This is such a bad Take for so many reasons already posted … Really awful post…

maybe stick to Zach sucks threads?

Feel free to counter any of those stats logically.

I'll wait with baited breath when you tell me we are near dead last in run defense, not middle of the pack not 20th but 31 st.

I'll wait while you tell me how being 26th in 3rd down defense is totally the offenses fault.

I'll wait so you can tell me how being tied for the league lead in roughing the pass penalties is on the offense.

if what I'm seeing as push backs is true we should put very few resources into the D becasue it is so dependent on the offense.

We paid Quinnen like 100 million for the 31st ranked run defense and 2 sacks.

Last year?   Our offense also sucked and Zach was also the QB but they performed better until it counted when w lost 6 in a row and got 1 turnover in the last 6 games.

Defense is good in some areas, bad in others but overrated for how they are viewed as a whole.

[sec101row23]

This thread is kind of a simpleton take.   There is zero complimentary football being played by this team.  The defense needs to hold teams under 14 points and has to score for this team to be competitive.  The offense never helps, the defense constantly has to bail out the offense.   I’m impressed they are still playing as hard as they are given the absolute disaster that the offense is.  

[TuscanyTile2]

53 minutes ago, BP said:

Look at that confident face when he tells you he’s embarrassing QBs, but isn’t embarrassed by his own teams play.

Pretty sure this screenshot is from the season opener after AR8 got injured.  

[slimjasi]

2 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Pretty sure this screenshot is from the season opener after AR8 got injured

It is 

[Jetsplayer21]

4 hours ago, Chewy and the Jets said:

I would bet we are first in time of possession though

09/10 years D was ranked 1 and 3 overall. But they had a good OL, didnt have worst qb in league ( sanchez wasn’t great though ) . They could control the clock. I don’t even have to look, the D has to lead league in number of series per game. 

[Ghost420]

If only our defense was better maybe Zach Wilson wouldn't have been benched. 

[Jetsplayer21]

5 hours ago, Beerfish said:

15th in yards per game

31st in run defense

18th on points allowed

26th in 3rd down defense

Tied for 20th in sacks

Tied for the league lead in roughing the passer penalties

(Wail!) Oh but it is not their fault that our offense is poor!!!!!

'Elite' defenses over come poor offenses, get off the field on 3rd down, stop the run and do not take endless awful penalties.

This is not close to an elite defense, a good defense?   Only at some things, pass defense is pretty good, red zone D is pretty good.

Cleveland has an 'elite' defense and we sure as hell are not in their league.

Come at me bros!  I shall bathe in all of your thumbs down votes as I bathe in the souls of my enemies!

 

You do realize it doesn’t matter how good your D is if you can’t score touchdowns? They have let go of the rope since basically all their work has meant nothing and basically out of playoff contention. I won’t even look, jets D has to lead the league in amount of time spent on the field. When your offense is historically the worst in NFL history, your D is going to be on the field twice as much as average. 
 

   I sure hope the goal isn’t to be “ elite on D.” The D is definitely not the problem. Qb and OL are. Lack of WR depth, basically the entire offense is piss poor. I hope that will FINALLY be the first, second , and third priority this coming off-season. I will steal all of JDs jelly doughnuts if he gets cute in round 1 and takes a LB or another DL because “ was best player available on my board .” Like last yr.

What was the stat of jets record would be past 2-3 years if O had only scored league average ? Something insane like 30-5. 
 

[BornJetsFan1983]

5 hours ago, Beerfish said:

15th in yards per game

31st in run defense

18th on points allowed

26th in 3rd down defense

Tied for 20th in sacks

Tied for the league lead in roughing the passer penalties

(Wail!) Oh but it is not their fault that our offense is poor!!!!!

'Elite' defenses over come poor offenses, get off the field on 3rd down, stop the run and do not take endless awful penalties.

This is not close to an elite defense, a good defense?   Only at some things, pass defense is pretty good, red zone D is pretty good.

Cleveland has an 'elite' defense and we sure as hell are not in their league.

Come at me bros!  I shall bathe in all of your thumbs down votes as I bathe in the souls of my enemies!

 

We literally have the worst offense of all time

The def is elite. Maybe not best ever but they are one of the best certainly this year.

Cleveland is good sure. Not sure they are better. If we had their QBs we have a better record. So there is that

[Hex]

44 minutes ago, Ghost420 said:

If only our defense was better maybe Zach Wilson wouldn't have been benched. 

It statistically is, ironically

[Dunnie]

15th in yards per game
31st in run defense
18th on points allowed
26th in 3rd down defense
Tied for 20th in sacks
Tied for the league lead in roughing the passer penalties
(Wail!) Oh but it is not their fault that our offense is poor!!!!!
'Elite' defenses over come poor offenses, get off the field on 3rd down, stop the run and do not take endless awful penalties.
This is not close to an elite defense, a good defense?   Only at some things, pass defense is pretty good, red zone D is pretty good.
Cleveland has an 'elite' defense and we sure as hell are not in their league.
Come at me bros!  I shall bathe in all of your thumbs down votes as I bathe in the souls of my enemies!
 

Strong post .. strong

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[Joe W. Namath]

2 hours ago, slimjasi said:

They went 80 yards on their first drive . . . And didn’t score. 
 

glad we agree! 

A great defense wouldnt let a team march 80 yards down the field at home on the 1st drive and screw the offense in field position.

More jet fan delusion.

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

2 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Beerfish is a smart guy. He knows there is a symbiotic relationship between offense and defense but will never acknowledge it on here for some strange reason. Not worth putting effort into tbh. This is just a thing for him

Just like I say about my 2 yr old when he has a meltdown. “Just let him cry it out”. 
Not worth the fight. 

[Matt39]

Some aspects of it are. Not worried about the run defense. The corner with the nickname certainly qualifies. Woolen realized he needed to change his first name.

[BP]

4 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Pretty sure this screenshot is from the season opener after AR8 got injured.  

Yep, that’s a look of fear and “what do I do now”

[Biggs]

10 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Nonsense.   Tough to win games?  Yes 100% agreed, we are not winning due to the offense.

But some of these stats and rankings are not related to the offense.

How does the offense make us 26th ranked on 3rd downs and tied for the league in roughing the passer?

The jets rotate their DL more than almost any team in the league.   The jets suck at getting off the field on 3rd down.  

The D’s inability to get off the field on third down impacts TOP.  The D rotation reduces the impact of TOP on the D.  The D is terrific when it can dictate in the passing game.  The D is getting pushed around in the running game.  The aggression of the D is also showing up in penalties that extend drives.  

On balance we have an extremely talented D that is underperforming.   Part of it is the O, but a big part of it is it puts the same film on tape every week.  Teams are exploiting the aggression and lack of scheming.   It’s way to predictable.  Most teams scheme for opponents and have their best players on the field in critical down and distance situations.   The Jets are too tough to use their brains.   It’s a dumb defense that’s all gas and no computerized fuel injectors.  

Its the culture that Seattle developed when they were stacked at every position.  Tom Brady destroyed it and even Seattle had to adjust.

[GangGreened]

9 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

A great defense wouldnt let a team march 80 yards down the field at home on the 1st drive and screw the offense in field position.

More jet fan delusion.

4th in DVOA

[JetsFanatic]

16 hours ago, Beerfish said:

15th in yards per game

31st in run defense

18th on points allowed

26th in 3rd down defense

Tied for 20th in sacks

Tied for the league lead in roughing the passer penalties

(Wail!) Oh but it is not their fault that our offense is poor!!!!!

'Elite' defenses over come poor offenses, get off the field on 3rd down, stop the run and do not take endless awful penalties.

This is not close to an elite defense, a good defense?   Only at some things, pass defense is pretty good, red zone D is pretty good.

Cleveland has an 'elite' defense and we sure as hell are not in their league.

Come at me bros!  I shall bathe in all of your thumbs down votes as I bathe in the souls of my enemies!

 

In fairness even the 1985 Bears defense would have eventually cracked if all the offense did was go 3 and out. If we had and offense that controlled the clock and scored points our defense would be excellent.

[jamesr]

13 hours ago, hawk said:

What is the average snaps against the defense?  What is the average per snap?

Stat warriors will always find an argument because they can always find a Stat to justify an argument. 

Very true. You could easily have the best run D in the league by stacking 11 guys in the box and leaving all the WRs uncovered. Lose by hundreds every game, but not give up a single yard of rushing. Because statz.

Look at the Cowboys game. Loads of rushing yards, but not a great average per carry. Cowboys were playing keep ball, grind the clock, because they knew our offense was putrid. No team would do that if they felt we were going to outscore them. Miami looked similar in the second half. Miami didn't need to score - they needed to not turn it over, burn up clock. Long, slow, grinding drives is the result. Would they have done that trailing by two scores? Or if we were even looking like we could put up any points at all? No chance. Totally alters the dynamic of the game, and the statz reflect this.

 

[jamesr]

10 hours ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

We literally have the worst offense of all time

The def is elite. Maybe not best ever but they are one of the best certainly this year.

Cleveland is good sure. Not sure they are better. If we had their QBs we have a better record. So there is that

How has Cleveland's D started looking after all the injuries they've had at QB? Because according to the premise of this thread it shouldn't matter.

[BP]

1 hour ago, Biggs said:

The jets rotate their DL more than almost any team in the league.   The jets suck at getting off the field on 3rd down.  

The D’s inability to get off the field on third down impacts TOP.  The D rotation reduces the impact of TOP on the D.  The D is terrific when it can dictate in the passing game.  The D is getting pushed around in the running game.  The aggression of the D is also showing up in penalties that extend drives.  

On balance we have an extremely talented D that is underperforming.   Part of it is the O, but a big part of it is it puts the same film on tape every week.  Teams are exploiting the aggression and lack of scheming.   It’s way to predictable.  Most teams scheme for opponents and have their best players on the field in critical down and distance situations.   The Jets are too tough to use their brains.   It’s a dumb defense that’s all gas and no computerized fuel injectors.  

Its the culture that Seattle developed when they were stacked at every position.  Tom Brady destroyed it and even Seattle had to adjust.

The jets can’t make adjustments, on defense or offense. Remember two years ago when diggs had 800 yards in one game and they refused to double cover him until it was too late. And that was without sauce. 
 

The Jets are a poorly coached team all around. From no scheming at all, to non thinking rotations, to taking breece hall out on passing downs to stupid penalties game after game. I can go on and on but woodys necklace shine is getting in my eyes.

[OilfieldJet]

16 hours ago, Beerfish said:

15th in yards per game

31st in run defense

18th on points allowed

26th in 3rd down defense

Tied for 20th in sacks

Tied for the league lead in roughing the passer penalties

(Wail!) Oh but it is not their fault that our offense is poor!!!!!

'Elite' defenses over come poor offenses, get off the field on 3rd down, stop the run and do not take endless awful penalties.

This is not close to an elite defense, a good defense?   Only at some things, pass defense is pretty good, red zone D is pretty good.

Cleveland has an 'elite' defense and we sure as hell are not in their league.

Come at me bros!  I shall bathe in all of your thumbs down votes as I bathe in the souls of my enemies!

 

OK Thanos.

 

Actually, I agree. 

[Bobby816]

This is true. But there's a lot of factors that have made us not as good. 1 being that they're always on the field. So of course they're going to give up more yards and such. We've had like 3 or 4 of our losses where we just got dominated in the TOP. The secondary  just hasn't been as good. Adams isn't as good as we hoped. Whitehead although better than last year, still isn't a good SS. Way too many missed tackles. Sauce is no where near the CB he was last year. Reed started out great and his cooled off. Carter was playing good as well and then he got injured. The DL rush D has been awful. This is also something that I feel isn't as bad as the stats show though. Why? Bc teams get a lead on us early and know we cant score... so they just run the ball a ton to use clock. On top of that, we've been poor stopping it as well. Losing Woods hurt, but that's IMO on JD that we have like 10 DLineman and only 1 run stuffer. And quite frankly I get real tired of the stat of QB pressures instead of sacks. Yes pressures are great. But there's something to be said for putting a team 5 yards further back and getting the players excited rather than just rushing a throw from the QB. And while we're middle of the pack in sacks. When you have 3 1st rounders on that DL it should be more. The best sack guy we have is an UDFA. Only pro I've seen from the defense is the LB group. Quincy has been great. And CJ is playing better than he has the last couple years. The coaching IMO wit Ulbreich has been good as well. Wouldn't be surprised to see him get some looks as a HC this winter.

[OilfieldJet]

15 hours ago, varjet said:

• Sheldon Rankins is having a great year this year.   We could have used a good run stuffer. 
• I think the defense was structured to be complementary with an offense and to protect a lead.  So much for that.  
• Losing Chuck Clark was not helpful.  
• Carl Lawson tailed off after getting some of 2023 guaranteed.  I think he is done now.  

Losing Clark was a true loss, I would argue losing Al Woods is worse, but neither should materially change the results.

[Rich Thornburgh]

16 hours ago, The Crusher said:

last in offensive first downs. 

This.  
 

The defense is forced to play the entire game (a lot of times starting in its own territory) due to horrible qb play

[JustInFudge]

Conceptually, I've noticed your fanbase struggles with placing blame for failure.  So many bad takes around here often come in vacuums and seem intent to find a singular point of blame for failure.  The reality is, American Football is the ultimate team sport.  It takes all 11 players working together, in harmony, every play to make the unit work.  9 times out of 10, there are numerous aspects that go into the failure of a particular unit.  In the case of the NY Jets defense, 2 things can be true at the same time.  The defense is in fact, overrated.  It is not elite, they are nowhere near the 85 Bears like your CB said they were in the preseason but also, the offense being a 3 and out turnover machine, impacts the defenses ability to play at an elite level.

So, now that we have that simple understanding of Football out of the way.  One particular data point that defends the OP's stance that the offense doenst matter is the Jets defense is particularly bad on opening drives and the 1st quarter, where the offense hasnt had enough time to negatively impact the defense.  NY Jets fans, I'm sorry but that is pitch and catch level and easy running.  Makes you wonder if the do any game prep or just bring their base defense and make adjustments on the fly.

				Rushing					Passing
Quarter	#Pl	ToGo	Yds	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD	1D	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	Y/A	TD	Int	Sk	1D	Rate	ANY/A
1st Qtr	172	8.05	6.17	77	416	5.4	3	18	63	92	68.5	671

[Long Island Leprechaun]

12 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Nonsense.   Tough to win games?  Yes 100% agreed, we are not winning due to the offense.

But some of these stats and rankings are not related to the offense.

How does the offense make us 26th ranked on 3rd downs and tied for the league in roughing the passer?

Using the roughing the passer stat is pretty meaningless. The range is from 0-5, with the vast majority of teams at 3,4 or 5. There are four teams with 5, four teams with 4, a bunch with 3. And the correlation to overall defense is pretty much zero. You're really really reaching to try to prove your point.

[jamesr]

12 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Feel free to counter any of those stats logically.

I'll wait with baited breath when you tell me we are near dead last in run defense, not middle of the pack not 20th but 31 st.

I'll wait while you tell me how being 26th in 3rd down defense is totally the offenses fault.

I'll wait so you can tell me how being tied for the league lead in roughing the pass penalties is on the offense.

if what I'm seeing as push backs is true we should put very few resources into the D becasue it is so dependent on the offense.

We paid Quinnen like 100 million for the 31st ranked run defense and 2 sacks.

Last year?   Our offense also sucked and Zach was also the QB but they performed better until it counted when w lost 6 in a row and got 1 turnover in the last 6 games.

Defense is good in some areas, bad in others but overrated for how they are viewed as a whole.

Not sure where 31st in run defense is coming from, but per NFL.com the Jets are 29th in rushing yards allowed. 

They are also 10th in % rushing first downs allowed. Tied for 7th in rushing TDs allowed. They are 20th in YPC. 

So the 29th in yards / 20th in YPC does determine a certain amount of "quantity over quality". If you are run on more than any other team then yes, your yards against will be higher. It stands to reason. Dallas ran loads on us at a pretty poor YPC rate. Giants only ran on us and actually refused to throw at all. That will add up yardage.

So, why do teams run on us over and over again? Is it because we are just really poor at run defense? Our 1st down stats and TD stats suggest otherwise. Another possibility is that the opposing teams do not feel the need - or the desire - to throw on us. (4th in passing yards allowed, 5th in passing YPA, 11th in completion %, 10th in 1st down %, 7th in INTs, tied 9th in passing TDs). 

In my view - and I accept that other views are available - teams do not fear our offense so they are happy to play safe, conservative football and know that as long as they don't turn it over they will win the game. That leads to more rushing yards against (even if not "efficient" yards), shorter / easier to convert third downs, fewer opportunities at sacks / INTs, etc.

If, say, they were forced to throw on us, would that make our stats look different in any aspect? Fewer runs, fewer run yards, maybe a poorer pass D, or maybe more INTs / sacks? We can obviously only speculate on a lot of that, and everyone will have an opinion that is hard to refute. But looking at the games we have won, a lot has been due to the defense - far more, I would argue, than a lot of other teams. Buffalo Week 1 - 3 INTs of Josh. Philly - our lone TD came on an 8 yard "drive" set up by our D. D then forced Philly to go 4 and out on the subsequent drive with the game on the line. Denver - defense sealed the game with a fumble return after an INT by our O gave Denver a late chance to steal that game. They also scored over a quarter of our points total that day. Giants - held G-Men under 200 total yards, though circumstances had a lot to do with this.

Now I would ask - which game(s) has our defense truly blown for us? We are 4-1 in games where we score 20+ points, so you could argue that the KC game is one. In our other 6 games we have posted a pathetic 57 points, are 0-6 in those, and would have been 2-4 if we held the opponent to HALF their total score in each game. 

 

 

[jamesr]

1 hour ago, BP said:

The jets can’t make adjustments, on defense or offense. Remember two years ago when diggs had 800 yards in one game and they refused to double cover him until it was too late. And that was without sauce. 
 

The Jets are a poorly coached team all around. From no scheming at all, to non thinking rotations, to taking breece hall out on passing downs to stupid penalties game after game. I can go on and on but woodys necklace shine is getting in my eyes.

Did you look at our points against in first vs second half? I gave up tracking after a bit but in our first 6 games we gave up 88 points in the first half and 31 in the second half. That is more points in Q1 AND Q2 than we gave up in H2. One TD against in 6 second halves of football.