Scouts take on Brock Bowers - merged

[RedBeardedSavage]

2 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

I can’t wait until we’re on the same side of an argument. You’re a bulldog.

Bro, we all want the Jets to be good. 

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

1 minute ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

All good. 

Your example then is a good one.  I don’t know if that’s the exception or the rule in similar situations.  

Do you have the same concerns with Harrison Jr?  He’s not running. 

PS - I’m spell and fact checking everything when responding to you.  

[RedBeardedSavage]

45 minutes ago, OtherwiseHappyinLife said:

Your example then is a good one.  I don’t know if that’s the exception or the rule in similar situations.  

Do you have the same concerns with Harrison Jr?  He’s not running. 

PS - I’m spell and fact checking everything when responding to you.  

Haha, well then I can admit this is where I'm a total hypocrite because I care less about MHJ's lack of testing.

As @derp pointed out in this thread with the 18+% double-teamed rate in college - which was the highest ever recorded by whomever recorded it (I believe it was the reception-perception guys) and, if I remember correctly, something like double what the next closest receiver had this past year in CFB, combined with his prototypical size (unlike Brock) and being the son of a HOF who played the same position, I'm just not particularly worried.

I'm aware of my own hypocrisy here, but... in my defense, it's not like 48% of his receptions were behind the LOS (like Brock), he's not undersized (like Brock), he didn't rely on YAC from screens and swings (one of the big reasons I'd like to see the athletic testing here - is Brock explosive, agile, strong enough to do that on an NFL level?) and while WR has many, many busts in the first round we can point to - before Sam Laporta (2nd rounder) - I don't think I can point to a single TE taken in round 1 that truly lived-up to the hype since I don't remember when. TJ Hock is the closest to it, but I doubt the Lions (or now Vikings) would take him 9 overall again in a redraft.

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

11 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Haha, well then I can admit this is where I'm a total hypocrite because I care less about MHJ's lack of testing.

As @derp pointed out in this thread with the 18+% double-teamed rate in college - which was the highest ever recorded by whomever recorded it (I believe it was the reception-perception guys) and, if I remember correctly, something like double what the next closest receiver had this past year in CFB, combined with his prototypical size (unlike Brock) and being the son of a HOF who played the same position, I'm just not particularly worried.

I'm aware of my own hypocrisy here, but... in my defense, it's not like 48% of his receptions were behind the LOS (like Brock), he's not undersized (like Brock), he didn't rely on YAC from screens and swings (one of the big reasons I'd like to see the athletic testing here - is Brock explosive, agile, strong enough to do that on an NFL level?) and while WR has many, many busts in the first round we can point to - before Sam Laporta (2nd rounder) - I don't think I can point to a single TE taken in round 1 that truly lived-up to the hype since I don't remember when. TJ Hock is the closest to it, but I doubt the Vikings would take him 9 overall again in a redraft.

You are a good man RedBeard!  Appreciate the back and forth.  Hypocracy is a common trait when there is a good debate.  (Hey that rhymed).

1 more week to go!  Let’s nail this draft and set ourselves up for success.  

[Gastineau Lives]

42 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

I'm a total hypocrite

 

This is all I read

[Larz]

2 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

The MPH data is just not super reliable at telling us much? 

Danny Dimes ran 17 mph @ his combine and hit 21.23 MPH in a game.

Jones has always been athletic and mobile for a quarterback but he's not some freakish outlier. 

Justin Fields ran a 4.43 at the combine and, while the rest of his game has shortcomings, nearly everyone agrees he's freakishly fast for a quarterback.

Yet look at this from Justin Fields:

*rest of the article is behind a paywall, so I screencaptured this ^

That's the exact same top speed, in mph, as Danny Dimes on his run. None of us believe they're the same speed, no? 

It would appear that the 40-yard dash is still a valuable, relevant tool and likely a more accurate measure of raw speed than the current MPH data. 

Bowlers ran 4.5 at 240.  

[RedBeardedSavage]

10 minutes ago, Larz said:

Bowlers ran 4.5 at 240.  

Quote

 

"Like Harrison, Bowers participated in the basics at the combine but stopped short of running a 40, testing or working out. One week later, he weighed in once more at the Georgia pro day but didn’t participate because of what the Falcons’ staffer directing the event noted was an “injured right hamstring.”

On April 10, about four weeks after his injury, Bowers got on the scale at the start of a three-player workout for assembled scouts. Then he performed positional drills but again refused the 40, the jumps and the shuttles."

 

From the OP in this thread.

This is, admittedly, where things get dicey. Because the reports are conflicting. At first, on the day, it was reported he did not run a 40. Then a few days later it was reported he did and it was 4.53. Now, in this article, they're saying he didn't. 

I don't know what to make of all that, but I think it's wise to take that time with a grain of salt considering the circumstances. 

[Gastineau Lives]

Come join!!

https://x.com/i/communities/1780672576588583305

[Jack Straw]

I find it incredible that whether Bowers is fast is even a debate.

Tim Tebow ran a 4.71 and there are people on this board who think Bowers has the same speed.

Insanity.

Bowers may not be a sub 4.5 guy but I’d bet the farm that he’s closer to 4.5 than 4.6.


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[Jack Straw]

Peter Warrick was once the best playmaker in college football and then got to the league and wasn’t. The times can matter. 

Peter Warrick was 5’11 190 lbs with 4.58 speed.

Brock is 6’3 240 lbs with the same speed. Different story.

[Larz]

2 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

From the OP in this thread.

This is, admittedly, where things get dicey. Because the reports are conflicting. At first, on the day, it was reported he did not run a 40. Then a few days later it was reported he did and it was 4.53. Now, in this article, they're saying he didn't. 

I don't know what to make of all that, but I think it's wise to take that time with a grain of salt considering the circumstances. 

No the camp that made him get recruited by Georgia . It’s in Dane Bruglers write up. 
 

he is faster than any TE currently in the NFL based on his gps speed. 
 

 

[Bobby816]

5 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

 

We'd all agree Justin Fields plays faster than Daniel Jones, right?

Both had the same top speed in MPH, but one ran in the 4.4's at the combine and the other ran in the 4.8's.

It would appear that top speed MPH data can seemingly be misleading - whereas the 40-yard dash seems to more accurately represent a player's speed on Sundays. 

That’s bc bigger guys when they get going when they have speed. Can really get going.

 

But as I stated…. Whether you’re a WR, QB, TE, CB, etc. These players next to never run 40 yards untouched and dead straight. So the 40 can be overrated. I prefer to watch film. Especially when it’s a guy playying too end talent. If they look fast in game. I can careless about there 40. Bc on the field in game. They were fast.

[Barton]

8 hours ago, Jack Straw said:

 

Peter Warrick was 5’11 190 lbs with 4.58 speed.

Brock is 6’3 240 lbs with the same speed. Different story.

 

What’s Brock’s speed?? We don’t even know. 100% he is hiding from the 40 yard/other drills. 

[Viermoo]

If Bowers is really that good and versatile maybe he can be used in some unique hybrid role as an unorthodox WR/TE/RB.

 

 

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[heymangold]

thanks, mel.

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

6 hours ago, Bobby816 said:

That’s bc bigger guys when they get going when they have speed. Can really get going.

 

But as I stated…. Whether you’re a WR, QB, TE, CB, etc. These players next to never run 40 yards untouched and dead straight. So the 40 can be overrated. I prefer to watch film. Especially when it’s a guy playying too end talent. If they look fast in game. I can careless about there 40. Bc on the field in game. They were fast.

I’d be much faster too if I had SEC LBs chasing me down with bad intentions.

High pitch screams only dogs could hear.  

[slats]

12 hours ago, Bobby816 said:

I mean at this stage if we don’t draft Bowers A LOt of so called experts who have connections with the Jets would be wrong. Which I can’t see that many guys being wrong. Only way I could see it being different is if we received an offer we can’t refuse for our pick.

I love you Bowers fanatics. I really do. 
 
I understand the hype. He is fast. He’s dangerous with the ball in his hands. Seems like a high character guy. What you guys don’t seem to understand, though, is just how risky he is at #10. He’s a little undersized. He’s added 10 or 15 pounds for the draft process, but he hasn’t played at over 240, yet. He’s the greatest TE prospect in the history of TE prospects, but also -according to his legion of supporters- he will be a disappointment if he’s used as a traditional TE. Hybrid/tweener types scare me. I understand the “matchup nightmare,” perceptions, but I’m also pretty confident that MC2 could keep the ball out of his hands on a regular basis. Rather than being the best of both worlds, sometimes those guys are instead just neither big nor fast enough for the transition to the pros. The TE that JD allegedly almost took last year started 12 games and had a little over 300 yards receiving. Hardly an argument in favor. If they draft Bowers, they’re trusting Hackett & Co. to come up with a 12-personnel primary package designed to feature a rookie H-back? Damn. And really, I’m not at all convinced that Bowers would do better in the big slot role than Lazard - who definitely sucked last year playing mostly outside with crap at QB but has a lot of success under his belt with Rodgers out of the slot. 
 
I’ve been encouraged by the whispers that the Jets love the top 3 WRs and will pounce if one is there. If they’re all gone, gun to my head, I’d guess the top OT on the board. Also believe that JD will go into Thursday night having had conversations with a few GMs about potential trade downs (maybe up, too, but more down, imho), and if the draft gods aren’t giving him the WR he desires, he’ll pull the trigger and move down - whether Bowers is there or not. 

[Claymation]

43 minutes ago, OtherwiseHappyinLife said:

I’d be much faster too if I had SEC LBs chasing me down with bad intentions.

High pitch screams only dogs could hear.  

Like Ryan Gosling getting his arm broken in Nice Guys.

 

[Gastineau Lives]

15 minutes ago, slats said:

He’s a little undersized. He’s added 10 or 15 pounds for the draft process, 

This is simply untrue. 

[CTJetsFan]

1 hour ago, Barton said:

What’s Brock’s speed?? We don’t even know. 100% he is hiding from the 40 yard/other drills. 

Tape don't lie. There are other ways his speed (playing/game speed specifically) can be determined without him running a 40 in shorts with no pads on a fast surface.

[slats]

5 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

This is simply untrue. 

Lol wut? He was listed at 6’4” [sic], 230lbs at Georgia. He didn’t gain weight during the football season. He gained it in preparation for the NFL. 

[Gastineau Lives]

Just now, slats said:

Lol wut? He was listed at 6’4” [sic], 230lbs at Georgia. He didn’t gain weight during the football season. He gained it in preparation for the NFL. 

 

[slats]

2 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

 

Cool, so an example of them exaggerating both his height and weight? Not uncommon. 

[Joe W. Namath]

We know what is going to happen if we draft Brock Bowers.  He will not be used much as Conklin and Ruckert are going to be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead of him at the nfl tight end position.

The Jets will create some packages for him but it wont do much on Sunday.

You have to trade Tyler Conklin for a 3 or 4 or Bowers just inst going to play much this year.

[Gastineau Lives]

2 minutes ago, slats said:

Cool, so an example of them exaggerating both his height and weight? Not uncommon. 

What’s your source again?

[slats]

Just now, Gastineau Lives said:

What’s your source again?

Are you also saying that he’s really 6’4”? 
 
Honestly, love the deflection. It’s what you do. Feel free to continue to ignore the rest of that post, lol. 

[Gastineau Lives]

6 minutes ago, slats said:

Are you also saying that he’s really 6’4”? 
 
Honestly, love the deflection. It’s what you do. Feel free to continue to ignore the rest of that post, lol. 

Again what’s your source? It’s YOUR claim.

also while we’re here: how did he put on the fifteen pounds? Milkshakes? Was it muscle weight or fat? Water weight? you seem to know.

[Claymation]

14 minutes ago, slats said:

I love you Bowers fanatics. I really do. 
 
I understand the hype. He is fast. He’s dangerous with the ball in his hands. Seems like a high character guy. What you guys don’t seem to understand, though, is just how risky he is at #10. He’s a little undersized. He’s added 10 or 15 pounds for the draft process, but he hasn’t played at over 240, yet. He’s the greatest TE prospect in the history of TE prospects, but also -according to his legion of supporters- he will be a disappointment if he’s used as a traditional TE. Hybrid/tweener types scare me. I understand the “matchup nightmare,” perceptions, but I’m also pretty confident that MC2 could keep the ball out of his hands on a regular basis. Rather than being the best of both worlds, sometimes those guys are instead just neither big nor fast enough for the transition to the pros. The TE that JD allegedly almost took last year started 12 games and had a little over 300 yards receiving. Hardly an argument in favor. If they draft Bowers, they’re trusting Hackett & Co. to come up with a 12-personnel primary package designed to feature a rookie H-back? Damn. And really, I’m not at all convinced that Bowers would do better in the big slot role than Lazard - who definitely sucked last year playing mostly outside with crap at QB but has a lot of success under his belt with Rodgers out of the slot. 
 
I’ve been encouraged by the whispers that the Jets love the top 3 WRs and will pounce if one is there. If they’re all gone, gun to my head, I’d guess the top OT on the board. Also believe that JD will go into Thursday night having had conversations with a few GMs about potential trade downs (maybe up, too, but more down, imho), and if the draft gods aren’t giving him the WR he desires, he’ll pull the trigger and move down - whether Bowers is there or not. 

He's the same size as: LaPorta; Kittle; Njoku; Andrews (taller same weight); Schulltz (taller same weight); Fergusen (taller same weight); Likely; Pitts (taller same weight); Otton (taller same weight). I quit after these guys, I could have looked more. The misnomer that Bowers is undersized is complete BS. He has average size for the position. He is an average blocker. He has great hands, great speed and another weapon defenses will have to game plan to stop. 

Legion of Supporters meaning Jets Fans? If so, who gives a crap what they think. He can play inline, he can play outside as well. He is a weapon for the middle of the field. And Bowers won't only play big slot. He will be a TE.

And do you know what the Clan of Adversaries will say when he only has a 3 catch performance in his 1st game is that he is a bust. You guys are as predictable as the Legion of supporters.

[slats]

2 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Again what’s your source

Brock Bowers: 

Quote

Bowers isn't as big as Kelce (6-foot-5, 250) or Kelce (6-foot-4,250), being listed by Georgia as 6-foot-4, 240 pounds and admitting Thursday that he played last season closer to 235 pounds.

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/georgias-brock-bowers-ready-to-make-his-case-as-nfls-next-great-tight-end

And I’d say his admission wasn’t a full admission, as he’s obviously no 6’4”, either. 

[RedBeardedSavage]

8 hours ago, Larz said:

No the camp that made him get recruited by Georgia . It’s in Dane Bruglers write up. 
 

he is faster than any TE currently in the NFL based on his gps speed. 
 

 

Larz, here's more from the OP here about his speed/lack of testing. 

Quote

“I think he’s hiding,” said one personnel man. “Now the people that love him will go, ‘Oh, no, it’s OK.’ I don’t think he would have worked out well. I don’t think he can run. I think he’d run 4.8.”

His estimation was at one end of the spectrum among the six scouts that offered their educated guesses on Bowers’ time. Others said 4.65, 4.53, “low to mid 4.6s,” 4.55 and 4.64.

“They (Georgia officials) claim he’ll run in the 4.4s but it wouldn’t shock me … if he only ran 4.5,” an AFC executive said. “I think people would be a little underwhelmed even though that’s still really good for what he is. I think he’s just trying to avoid the letdown and just keep his perfect resume he’s put on tape.”

We're at that point where people can just believe what they want because there is no definitive, recent test any of us can point to and say "that's what he is". You're citing a test from three years ago that was heard about second-hand. 

For all the 'mierda' the combine takes, it's a single event, done two months before the draft, broadcast on national tv and leaves no ambiguity. 

Just for context, because I brought this player up earlier in this thread for comparison:

Quote

Instead, the only information that is available regarding Harris’ 40 time is an unofficial clocking from his days at Alabama, where he reportedly recorded a 40 time of 4.45 seconds.

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/when-was-najee-harris-drafted-40-time-combine-performance/

These unofficial, 'rumored' times are to be taken with a massive grain of salt. 

[Gastineau Lives]

13 minutes ago, slats said:

Brock Bowers: 

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/georgias-brock-bowers-ready-to-make-his-case-as-nfls-next-great-tight-end

And I’d say his admission wasn’t a full admission, as he’s obviously no 6’4”, either. 

Ok so 8 lbs instead of fifteen. If he put on fifteen he’d be Kittle sized now and a little better than laporta sized but not Gronk sized but way bigger than Kyle Pitts sized 

God I miss the days when we were guessing whether he was fast or not, remember those?

[Pac]

Yeah I don't watch the college foozball so not too familiar with the dudes but Bowers seems to be the concensus chaos pick.  I vote for chaos. 

[Joe W. Namath]

With Conklin and Ruckert in front of him, I dont see Bowers catching more then 30 balls year 1.

When have the Jets ever played a rookie much when thye have a solid vet in front of them.

If Bowers is the pick, trade Conklin.

[ARodJetsFan]

12 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Bro, we all want the Jets to be good. 

If the offense can ever catch up to the defense, they will be.

[Gastineau Lives]

3 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

With Conklin and Ruckert in front of him, I dont see Bowers catching more then 30 balls year 1.

When have the Jets ever played a rookie much when thye have a solid vet in front of them.

If Bowers is the pick, trade Conklin.

Let’s bet! I love gambling.