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Official JN Schottenheimer Discussion Thread

Irish Jet

By Irish Jet
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Bleedin Green

Bleedin Green

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They very often call their own plays at the line. What to make of this?

What's your point exactly, Sanchez should be calling his own plays? Or that these QBs are all better play-callers than a guy who's job is to do exactly that?

Again...run or pass...None of those guys or their teams make it a secret that they want to pass. How come teams can't stop it anyway? You think Rex spent more than a couple hours on the Pats' running game over the 10 days? You think in last year's playoff game against the Colts the Jets spent more than a few minutes on their running game? Their offenses aren't the pyramids...there is no great mystery to what they're doing and they clearly trend in the direction of pass and pass ALOT.

Again with the black and white. This is not the way the world works. It's not just as simple as guessing run or pass. Do you mean to tell me you think NFL defenses defend every pass play the exact same way, and every run play the exact same way?

Also, when you say a D should have to take into account everyone and everything are we including the QB this time? You ignored Brady in previous analysis of this year's Pats offense recently IIRC. Should teams fear the Sanchez yet?

Yes QB's are included and at this point teams aren't going to fear Sanchez. Which is exactly the point of not having an offense built upon relying on your QB to be one of the elite when he's not.

Manning is relevant because I brought up QBs who are the masters of their domain. They control what goes on in their offense. But anyway...

What's the significance of Brady playing better without Moss? Why ignore that Brady played in this type of offense from '01-'07? This is the offense he grew up in, not the Moss offense...and I'm not sure what your argument is getting at right now...

I find it funny how you are oblivious to the fact that this is only further proving the points about offensive scheme. Yes, I am well aware of Brady running a very similar offense to this throughout the first many years of his career. However, the offense has changed away from that and back to that system both with rousing success. Both times, the changes elicited a MUCH better offense than what the team was running prior to that. Does having a great QB help? Of course it does, but having an offense that's suited to the players you have on your roster and their particular strengths DOES make a difference. It's the reason why a change in offensive philosophy has helped to show improvements in even a HOF bound QB.

A couple things...

1. Funnily enough Brian Schottenheimer was Drew Brees' coach in SD when Brees turned his career down.

2. Brees went from being one of the best QBs in the AFC during his last couple years in SD to a top QB in the NFC...despite changing offenses and coaches. I don't think he took his coaches from SD with him. Perhaps the guy is just legitimately awesome, hard working, and a very, very, very good QB and player?

Again, the world does not work in the absolutes you try to pretend it does. A QB doesn't get to become as great as these guys are without their own individual efforts and abilities. However, that doesn't mean coaching has absolutely nothing to do with them. The fact is that Brees was very good towards the end of his time in SD, but he became even significantly better since moving to New Orleans. The point being, even the best QBs in the league can be affected by other factors around them, including but not limited to, coaching and play-calling.

Huh? Translation needed.

I'm not sure what's so confusing. Peyton Manning is a great QB and in almost any offense, will play better than most other QBs. That said, it does not mean he will be equally as great in one offense as he would be in another.

I'm sorry...you jump into the top 5...pay the guy 50 million...and he SHOULDN'T be held to the standard of one day becoming an elite at his position?

Yes... one day. That day isn't today. Until that day comes, the Jets shouldn't be pretend that he is.

Also, I'd say the Jets going out and building a top OL and a top rushing attack IS them taking into account that the QB isn't elite yet.

It is, but that comes back to the prior debate of whether they are being used effectively. Clearly some of the Jets opposing defenses have made it clear they don't particularly think so.

Yes...so lets do this...Mark Sanchez last year threw up 12/20 over the full season...this year he's at 16/11...lets say he's not on the Jets but rather on a fictional team you don't see as often...all you have are his stats and highlights/lowlights...keep in mind this is a true sophomore player...would you really come to the conclusion that he's being coached poorly just because he's looked bad 2 games in a row? Is that really the conclusion that would jump first into your mind?

Based on a pure statistical analysis, without having seen anything going on, it would look like the QB had played like complete dog crap the last two weeks. Without any further information, it would be impossible to make a determination as to what the reasons behind this could be. However, this isn't some fictional team I know nothing about, and this conclusion isn't based on 2 games. The criticisms of Schotty began for many of us prior to even the drafting of Sanchez, and we didn't want him anywhere near our new QB to begin with.

We clearly aren't going to agree on this point, and I don't expect us to, but from my perspective and many others, we see an offense plagued by the same issues over and over again that fail to be corrected despite a complete overhaul of the entire offense from top to bottom, and completely different players having the same exact issues as the ones before them. There's ugly trends that have followed this offense around Schotty's entire tenure here, and the only explanation anyone defending him seems to have is to entirely blame the dozens upon dozens of players that have come and gone, while completely excusing the guy in charge of them all. That doesn't excuse the players for their part in the failures, as they surely deserve to shoulder some of the blame, but so does their coordinator. And if in 5 years he hasn't been able to put together something that can consistently work for this team, what reason is there to expect he ever will? Which is exactly why you give someone else the opportunity to do what he has yet to be able to do.

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serphnx

serphnx

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Normally I wont just throw a link up to the stuff on my site, but I just wrote this yesterday about the Jets offense, their play selection compared to a few other teams, and how good or bad they are in certain situations.

http://www.nyjetscap.com/jetsplaycalling.php

To add to this, Sanchez usually is in empty back shotgun on 3rd and short. The other QBs generally take a snap from under center and there is a threat of the run.

Also it'd be interesting to see the statistics on the past few games/against good defenses. I believe some of these statistics are misleading because of the bad defenses the Jets have played and gotten fed on (not fat, because they never do that well, just normalish). It always seems like Sanchez is put in 3rd and long situations. I don't know how many of his total passes are from 3rd and long, but it seems like a lot. Since 3rd down is usually a failure down for everybody, with even the great QBs only managing to complete 55% of their passes (and this isn't even listing the conversion percentage, which I believe is somewhere around 30%), of course Sanchez' completion percentage will only be around 50% since the Jets run most of the other downs and he won't get many chances. If your completion percentage is 50% on third down and you always play to convert on 3rd down, you will not have many drives because you will fail about half the time.

Generally you need at least 50 or so yards to get into scoring position. For the Jets, that is 15 plays or 5 third down conversions. Statistically that is unlikely.

This has been a hallmark of this offense under Schitty for years. Everyone blames Pennington and then amazingly Favre for it, but it is designed like this. Now people want to blame Rex and say it's his design and philosophy when it's hard to make that case.

It takes miracle plays for the Jets to generally even get first downs. For the rest of the league, a miracle play is either a huge gainer or a TD.

This guy should have been fired 2 years ago but now he has probably ruined Sanchez anyway. Sanchez' mechanics were considered great while he was at USC and I think Pete Carroll actually figured he'd just draft Sanchez after he left USC. Now Sanchez has terrible mechanics and is generally just bad. It's funny because the first 3 games he had in this league he was really good, and after Schotty has been through with him everyone thinks he sucks.

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SenorGato

SenorGato

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What's your point exactly, Sanchez should be calling his own plays? Or that these QBs are all better play-callers than a guy who's job is to do exactly that?

That great offenses run through great QBs...not great offensive coordinators. These QBs run their offenses perfectly...sure they call the plays but they wouldn't earn the right to call the plays if they didn't show the coaches they can execute consistently. Sanchez is not at the level, therefore our offense will not be at that level.

Again with the black and white. This is not the way the world works. It's not just as simple as guessing run or pass. Do you mean to tell me you think NFL defenses defend every pass play the exact same way, and every run play the exact same way?

No, but I do think a good D can read a run or a pass before the snap. Not sure how I'm making it black and white. You significantly and consistently throw out too many pieces...the other team's D are not a bunch of dummies standing in place clueless to what's going on on the field. They made it to the pro level because they know how to play defensive football...part of defense in anything at all is being prepared...part of preparation in football is knowing the little things that can give you a hint of what's coming...O-lines set up differently for pass plays than they do for run plays for instance....that is something a D can and will notice.

Yes QB's are included and at this point teams aren't going to fear Sanchez. Which is exactly the point of not having an offense built upon relying on your QB to be one of the elite when he's not.

You're ignoring the big picture...an efficient QB makes an efficient offense...Sanchez is not an efficient QB...therefore there is no chance for the Jets to have a consistently good offense.

This is something the whole team and the whole franchise knows, hence the Jets are not crapping their pants over "only" winning games against non-elite competition by 3 points late in the game.

I find it funny how you are oblivious to the fact that this is only further proving the points about offensive scheme. Yes, I am well aware of Brady running a very similar offense to this throughout the first many years of his career. However, the offense has changed away from that and back to that system both with rousing success. Both times, the changes elicited a MUCH better offense than what the team was running prior to that. Does having a great QB help? Of course it does, but having an offense that's suited to the players you have on your roster and their particular strengths DOES make a difference. It's the reason why a change in offensive philosophy has helped to show improvements in even a HOF bound QB
.

You're still not getting it...there is no way the Pats make the offense changes they made under Brady WITHOUT a QB the caliber of Brady...there's no ifs ands or buts about that...You cannot downplay the effect a QB has on his offense. Belichick feels comfortable making the changes he makes on offense because he has a QB he has an infinite amount of trust in...the Jets do not have that luxury and are force to do what they have to to win until the D the QB gives them the flexibility to do an infinite amount of things to win.

Again, the world does not work in the absolutes you try to pretend it does. A QB doesn't get to become as great as these guys are without their own individual efforts and abilities. However, that doesn't mean coaching has absolutely nothing to do with them. The fact is that Brees was very good towards the end of his time in SD, but he became even significantly better since moving to New Orleans. The point being, even the best QBs in the league can be affected by other factors around them, including but not limited to, coaching and play-calling.

Where have I said coaching has absolutely nothing to do with it? You can't put words in my mouth and then tell me I'm working in such lame forms of absolutes.

I'm still wondering if you'll pay attention to the fact that Brees' QB coach in SD during the years he started being awesome was the very man you hope is the cause of all our problems. Also, I'm not sure how him being a great QB in SD (and he was really, really good his last few years there) then being a great QB in New Orleans means much...he put up his best seasons in New Orleans but that's as much situation (dome, NFC, the NFC South was a horrible division when he arrived) as it is anything else...those are some other outside factors including playcalling and coaching...how much weight do put on any of those? How much weight do you put on him being a great QB? Significantly more, no?

I'm not sure what's so confusing. Peyton Manning is a great QB and in almost any offense, will play better than most other QBs. That said, it does not mean he will be equally as great in one offense as he would be in another.

Give Peyton Manning time to master an offense and I think he'd do it...And either way it doesn't matter because he has mastered his offense...the goal of the modern QB.

Yes... one day. That day isn't today. Until that day comes, the Jets shouldn't be pretend that he is.

A 100+ million dollar OL + 2 years in a row of top rushing attacks + going out and spending 3 draft picks on talented veteran WRs say the Jets aren't pretending he's an elite QB...

It is, but that comes back to the prior debate of whether they are being used effectively. Clearly some of the Jets opposing defenses have made it clear they don't particularly think so.

...This goes right over my head.

Based on a pure statistical analysis, without having seen anything going on, it would look like the QB had played like complete dog crap the last two weeks.

An excellent way of once again avoiding the question.

Without any further information, it would be impossible to make a determination as to what the reasons behind this could be. However, this isn't some fictional team I know nothing about, and this conclusion isn't based on 2 games. The criticisms of Schotty began for many of us prior to even the drafting of Sanchez, and we didn't want him anywhere near our new QB to begin with.

Well he is near the new QB and last year he took that new QB to the AFCCG...sooo....yeah I guess that shows how much fans know, right?

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Smashmouth

Smashmouth

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I really think this is rex more then schitty

So it was Mangini and now its Rex . Exactly why are you saying its Rex ? Are you saying its him for not killing his OC by now ? Are you saying its him for not stripping him of his play calling duties ? Are you saying its Rex for not realizing last year this guy is a complete moron ? If your blaming Rex for not "Doing Something" I would agree but if your blaming Rex for some other reason what exactly is that reason ? You think hes telling sh*tty what to call OR giving him a basic game plan to work from like what type of calls he wants in certain situations?

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Smashmouth

Smashmouth

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To add to this, Sanchez usually is in empty back shotgun on 3rd and short. The other QBs generally take a snap from under center and there is a threat of the run.

Not to mention doing it both times Woddy got hurt vs top NFL pass Rushers nearly getting Sanchez killed.

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Aten

Aten

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So it was Mangini and now its Rex .

Ultimately it's Tannenbaum. He gave both of them free reign to cater to their worst impulses when it was his job to get them back on the reservation. The buck stops with him as far as Sanchez even being drafted in the first place. Of course Rex wanted him. He has entirely too much faith in his own acumen, which leads to stuff like thinking he can evaluate a quarterback based on what has been historically demonstrated to be an insufficient body of work. Tannenbaum was the one who was supposed to have said, that's great, Rex, but it simply isn't possible to be as sure as you think you are about this guy and we're gonna go in another direction.

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Integrity28

Integrity28

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So has it been firmly established that there is plenty of blame to go around for this 9-4 merely WC bound debacle?

Can it be concluded that everyone should do their job better to the point where the Jets are the juggernaut we the people deserve?

Yes. Has anyone mentioned that Schotty sucks?

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Smashmouth

Smashmouth

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Ultimately it's Tannenbaum. He gave both of them free reign to cater to their worst impulses when it was his job to get them back on the reservation. The buck stops with him as far as Sanchez even being drafted in the first place. Of course Rex wanted him. He has entirely too much faith in his own acumen, which leads to stuff like thinking he can evaluate a quarterback based on what has been historically demonstrated to be an insufficient body of work. Tannenbaum was the one who was supposed to have said, that's great, Rex, but it simply isn't possible to be as sure as you think you are about this guy and we're gonna go in another direction.

Aten I think the coach has the right to pick his staff, thats not typically on the GM. However, I do believe someone in this organization gave sh*tt head a glowing reccomendation to Rex and cited the fact the team just needed to bring in some offensive talent. Also I think Sanchez is loaded with talent and the jets staff has dewstroyed or in in the process of destroying a good young QB. Im not the biggest fan of Tanny but I can't put this on him at all.

Yes. Has anyone mentioned that Schotty sucks?

He Forgot

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T0mShane

T0mShane

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Aten I think the coach has the right to pick his staff, thats not typically on the GM. However, I do believe someone in this organization gave sh*tt head a glowing reccomendation to Rex and cited the fact the team just needed to bring in some offensive talent. Also I think Sanchez is loaded with talent and the jets staff has dewstroyed or in in the process of destroying a good young QB. Im not the biggest fan of Tanny but I can't put this on him at all.

If the Jets fired Schotty, I believe they would have had to cut him a check for close to $2 mil. That's why he survived the Mangini-Rex transition, along with Bob Sutton for that matter.

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SenorGato

SenorGato

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If the Jets fired Schotty, I believe they would have had to cut him a check for close to $2 mil. That's why he survived the Mangini-Rex transition, along with Bob Sutton for that matter.

They actually extended him the day after they hired Rex. The extension? 2 million.

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2009/01/schottenheimer_signs_an_extens.html

1/23/09

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3848743

1/22/09

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SenorGato

SenorGato

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That makes sense as the Jets have run 896 plays from scrimmage, 2nd in the NFL, and are 4th in the NFL in time of possession. So why are the Jets 18th in points per game?

Poor playcalls, poor gameplans, and identity issues. Also, lack of screens and routes.

My tail is so fun!

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dbatesman

dbatesman

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Ultimately it's Tannenbaum. He gave both of them free reign to cater to their worst impulses when it was his job to get them back on the reservation. The buck stops with him as far as Sanchez even being drafted in the first place. Of course Rex wanted him. He has entirely too much faith in his own acumen, which leads to stuff like thinking he can evaluate a quarterback based on what has been historically demonstrated to be an insufficient body of work. Tannenbaum was the one who was supposed to have said, that's great, Rex, but it simply isn't possible to be as sure as you think you are about this guy and we're gonna go in another direction.

You could argue the same thing about the Conner pick. Everyone got so caught up in the cute nickname and the ground and pound crap that they forgot how dumb it is to invest 25% of your picks in a pure FB when guys like Cam Thomas are still on the board. It's unfortunate because I think Rex is a pretty good coach. I'm not sure about the precedent for capable personnel guys willfully eschewing the right to choose their coach, but it's certainly possible that Tannenbaum's lack of cojones could cost two guys their jobs.

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CTM

CTM

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So it was Mangini and now its Rex . Exactly why are you saying its Rex ? Are you saying its him for not killing his OC by now ? Are you saying its him for not stripping him of his play calling duties ? Are you saying its Rex for not realizing last year this guy is a complete moron ? If your blaming Rex for not "Doing Something" I would agree but if your blaming Rex for some other reason what exactly is that reason ? You think hes telling sh*tty what to call OR giving him a basic game plan to work from like what type of calls he wants in certain situations?

I was suggesting the amount of "ground and pound" was rex

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jason423

jason423

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You could argue the same thing about the Conner pick. Everyone got so caught up in the cute nickname and the ground and pound crap that they forgot how dumb it is to invest 25% of your picks in a pure FB when guys like Cam Thomas are still on the board. It's unfortunate because I think Rex is a pretty good coach. I'm not sure about the precedent for capable personnel guys willfully eschewing the right to choose their coach, but it's certainly possible that Tannenbaum's lack of cojones could cost two guys their jobs.

Agreed. Wasting a pick on a position that has almost become obsolete in the NFL when you have a D-line with no depth and a ton of age is a waste. Its also not a position that has fared well in the draft at that stage in recent years. At that stage in the draft the diamonds in the rough are traditionally found at the interior offensive line position and the defensive line position. It was essentially a no reward pick. My take on him based on the jets track record in the round and the typical performance of the position was that he would be out of the NFL after 2 seasons. That might still be accurate though he has been somewhat productive on special teams. Not that my projection model looks too good right now considering I had Wilson pegged as an above average, but not elite, level player and Joe McKnight as a guy that should produce 500-600 yards per year in the offense. Right now Wilson looks like he will be lucky to reach average while McKnight may reach 50-60 yards a year.

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Jets Voice of Reason

Jets Voice of Reason

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You could argue the same thing about the Conner pick. Everyone got so caught up in the cute nickname and the ground and pound crap that they forgot how dumb it is to invest 25% of your picks in a pure FB when guys like Cam Thomas are still on the board. It's unfortunate because I think Rex is a pretty good coach. I'm not sure about the precedent for capable personnel guys willfully eschewing the right to choose their coach, but it's certainly possible that Tannenbaum's lack of cojones could cost two guys their jobs.

One of the many reasons why this past draft sucked balls. Create holes ---> fill them with players that need a lot of development. Draft FB ---> Give most of the reps to aging vet T-rich. Draft is deep in D-line talent --->pass on them all.

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bobbyjet69

bobbyjet69

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One of the many reasons why this past draft sucked balls. Create holes ---> fill them players that need a lot of development. Draft FB ---> Give most of the reps to aging vet T-rich. Draft is deep in D-line talent --->pass on them all.

i'm excited to see what this young FB can do, seeing him blow someone up EVERYTIME he gets in the game is sweet, maybe T-Rich should step aside!

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serphnx

serphnx

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Ground and pound is a stupid name anyway. Rex just watches MMA where the term originated from. All it means is you tackle the other guy, sit on him, and punch or elbow him. 90% of the time it actually winds up being simulated homosexual sex with the guy on top holding the guy on the bottom down while he wraps his legs around the guy on top. No damage is generally dealt. Some people call it lay and pray. Usually I just call it ground and stall.

And that is the more apropos name for this offense, as all it does is Ground and Stall. They waste 2 downs running for little to no yardage, just stalling for time. If Sanchez can bail them out in the 4th quarter they can win, otherwise they just wasted the first 50 minutes of the game entirely. Very stupid, failing philosophy in the NFL.

If the Jets were a good running team it would be different. But they are predictable and also very bad at it as well. LT hasn't broken I believe 50 yards or scored a TD since the bye week. Greene has been only marginally better. The O-line got paid so they don't block anymore either. This is also why you don't break the bank on the fatasses up front usually. You want young, hungry guys. You keep drafting them and just rotating them around. I like D-brick and that's about it on that line nowadays. I loved Moore but he's injured. I want to say Mangold is still awesome but I don't think he is, I feel like he got paid and now he quit.

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