Official JN Schottenheimer Discussion Thread

[CTM]

And that is the more apropos name for this offense, as all it does is Ground and Stall. They waste 2 downs running for little to no yardage, just stalling for time. If Sanchez can bail them out in the 4th quarter they can win, otherwise they just wasted the first 50 minutes of the game entirely. Very stupid, failing philosophy in the NFL.

If the Jets were a good running team it would be different. But they are predictable and also very bad at it as well. LT hasn't broken I believe 50 yards or scored a TD since the bye week. Greene has been only marginally better. The O-line got paid so they don't block anymore either. This is also why you don't break the bank on the fatasses up front usually. You want young, hungry guys. You keep drafting them and just rotating them around. I like D-brick and that's about it on that line nowadays. I loved Moore but he's injured. I want to say Mangold is still awesome but I don't think he is, I feel like he got paid and now he quit.

Given that, why are some calling for Callahan to get the big boy job?

[T0mShane]

Given that, why are some calling for Callahan to get the big boy job?

IMO, it's not player performance that's the problem with the running game, it's the sequence of plays called that hurts our run game. The talent is clearly there to host a legit rushing attack, but when the defense knows what's coming no amount of talent can overcome that. Callahan has had prolific running games everywhere he's been. Everywhere, except for this year that is.

[Smashmouth]

IMO, it's not player performance that's the problem with the running game, it's the sequence of plays called that hurts our run game. The talent is clearly there to host a legit rushing attack, but when the defense knows what's coming no amount of talent can overcome that. Callahan has had prolific running games everywhere he's been. Everywhere, except for this year that is.

He had a prolific Passing game in Oakland as well and it was a short passing game but I think Gannon still threw for 4600 yards

[Smashmouth]

Given that, why are some calling for Callahan to get the big boy job?

Because even though were playing bad were still rushing for 140 + per game right ? Would be more if Shiity didnt panick while down 7-0.

[SMC]

This debate goes round-and-round.

Schotty's Offensive Rankings for his career:

2010 -- 12th in ypg, 14th in ppg

2009 -- 20th in ypg, 17th in ppg

2008 -- 16th in ypg, 9th in ppg

2007 -- 26th in ypg, 25th in ppg

2006 -- 25th in ypg, 18th in ppg

Schotty's Offense Passing Yard Ranking:

2010 -- 21st

2009 -- 31st

2008 -- 16th

2007 -- 25th

2006 -- 17th

Every year the Jets QB has had a TD:INT ratio of 1:1 or worse, and that was with QBs such as Chad and Favre who a year after leaving the Jets dramatically improved their TD:INT ratio.

In 5 yrs on the job running the same system, the best Schotty's offense can do is be 12th in total offense (2010) and 9th in points and 16th in passing (2008).

Schotty has a track record of mediocrity. If anything, Sanchez being the "issue" is providing standard production under a Schotty designed offense.

In other words, Sanchez at the helm is not performing outside the norm of what a Schotty QB should do.

[SenorGato]

He had a prolific Passing game in Oakland as well and it was a short passing game but I think Gannon still threw for 4600 yards

And there's 0 doubts in my mind his success 8 years ago in Oakland can and will be promptly matched by the Jets. His playcalls will turn our whole passing game around.

Schotty has a track record of mediocrity

As dose Pennington...as does Clemens...and Sanchez isn't much better right now...I have no idea why Jet fans bring up the past QBs of the Schottenheimer offenses as if something special coulda/woulda/shoulda happened with them...or why it's some kind of shocker than Pennington, Favre, Clemens, and Sanchez have thrown INTs.

As far as the last two sentences...what explains Sanchez's improvements from last year to this year? Part of the system? His ability to overcome? Something? Nothing?

[SMC]

JennyVrentas: Schottenheimer said he called for Sanchez to spike outside of 1 min in 2nd half. #nyj

JennyVrentas: Schottenheimer said he didn't disagree w/Rex not liking the spike, but thought it gave off. best chnc to get set after big gain. #nyj

Since that issue had been out there during the week and this definitely answers it.

Schitty called the spike because he thought it was the best chance to get set.

If you think that means he couldn't call another play quick enough, I can see that.

[Bleedin Green]

or why it's some kind of shocker than Pennington, Favre, Clemens, and Sanchez have thrown INTs.

The other points we've debated around in circles a million times before and will get nowhere on there, but this one is rather easy. It's a shocker because as much as I hated Pennington, the ONE thing the guy has always done well in his career is protect the ball. Chad's TD/INT ratio under Schotty was 27:25, under every other OC in his career? 75:39. Including going 10:9 in his last year with Schotty to 19:7 just one year later. As for Favre, the guy had two of the best years in his career in that department in both the year prior (28:15) and the year after (33:7), so why would we expect a 1:1 ratio with the Jets as acceptable? (It's rhetorical, I already know the standard Schotty excuse for this one).

You can make excuses until you're blue in the face about what he's had to work with, but the fact remains that other OC's have done MUCH better than Schotty with two of the guys who were apparently entirely at fault for his offensive failures.

[gsnts725]

TheJetsStream Manish Mehta

#Jets O-coordinator B. Schottenheimer on criticism: "Comes w/territory. I know I'm a damn good coach. We've had a lot of success here" #nfl

lololol thats funny Schittyheimer

[Aten]

The other points we've debated around in circles a million times before and will get nowhere on there, but this one is rather easy. It's a shocker because as much as I hated Pennington, the ONE thing the guy has always done well in his career is protect the ball. Chad's TD/INT ratio under Schotty was 27:25, under every other OC in his career? 75:39. Including going 10:9 in his last year with Schotty to 19:7 just one year later. As for Favre, the guy had two of the best years in his career in that department in both the year prior (28:15) and the year after (33:7), so why would we expect a 1:1 ratio with the Jets as acceptable? (It's rhetorical, I already know the standard Schotty excuse for this one).

You can make excuses until you're blue in the face about what he's had to work with, but the fact remains that other OC's have done MUCH better than Schotty with two of the guys who were apparently entirely at fault for his offensive failures.

Cherry-picking is fun. Look at Gruden in 2002. Left Oakland for Tampa, both teams got better. Does this mean that Gruden simultaneously sucks and is awesome or does it mean that regressing a small sample over one variable is stupid and pointless?

[visajets]

Schottenheimer speaks.

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2010/12/jets_offensive_coordinator_bri_1.html

[Bleedin Green]

Cherry-picking is fun. Look at Gruden in 2002. Left Oakland for Tampa, both teams got better. Does this mean that Gruden simultaneously sucks and is awesome or does it mean that regressing a small sample over one variable is stupid and pointless?

So you would prefer a larger sample than that of Schotty's entire offensive coordinating career? Is it your assertion that no person should be judged based on their job performance for oh, I don't know, 10 years, because they cannot be properly evaluated with a large enough sample size until then? Have fun with that.

[serphnx]

Schottenheimer speaks.

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2010/12/jets_offensive_coordinator_bri_1.html

Bwahaha..."big play." To this clown a big play is 15 yards. See? That is the exact problem with this guy.

A 15 yard pass play is not supposed to be some miracle "we hope we get a big play today" type of thing. A 15 yard pass is supposed to just be a normal, regular occurrence. You want to get maybe 10 or more of them in a game at least, if all goes well. A "big play" is a really more along the lines of a 30 yard or more gain, preferably leading to a TD or putting you right in scoring position for one.

But to this guy 15 yards is a big play, and I guess 7 yards is the normal goal type play. He's playing for 10 7 yard plays a game.

[#27TheDominator]

The O-line got paid so they don't block anymore either. This is also why you don't break the bank on the fatasses up front usually. You want young, hungry guys. You keep drafting them and just rotating them around. I like D-brick and that's about it on that line nowadays. I loved Moore but he's injured. I want to say Mangold is still awesome but I don't think he is, I feel like he got paid and now he quit.

I agree that the O-line has been a problem, but I don't think that it is from getting paid. The salaries probably went down without Faneca. They are using a "young hungry guy" in Slauson. They have been hurt. People act like football players are hurt or they aren't and that's simply not the case. Woody has been playing on one leg and it's been killing the team and when he isn't there Hunter is okay, but it's not like he's a top line guy. Slauson has been hurt and missed time. Mangold has missed a series here or there with a shoulder injury. It's nice these guys have been toughing it out, but it's tough to just blow people up when you are dinged.

Given that, why are some calling for Callahan to get the big boy job?

The board sees Callahan as the master of the "ground and pound" but this is the guy that brought the west coast short passing offense to the Nebraska Cornhuskers. Nebraska!

He had a prolific Passing game in Oakland as well and it was a short passing game but I think Gannon still threw for 4600 yards

Right and he is going to install this new short passing game in one week. Hell, fire Schotty now. We can do it by Sunday. Never mind the fact that Sanchez bas shown signs of being overwhelmed by even a simplified NFL offense.

You can make excuses until you're blue in the face about what he's had to work with, but the fact remains that other OC's have done MUCH better than Schotty with two of the guys who were apparently entirely at fault for his offensive failures.

How much better did they do with Favre this year? He has 10 TDs and 18 INTs. The Jets offense was killing in 2008, up until the Titans game. When did Favre break down? The last 5 games he had 9 INTs and 2 TDs. Before that 20 TDs and 13 INTs and they were averaging 29 ppg. That's pretty ****ing good if you ask me. Then that old douchebag sh*t the bed.

[Larz]

cam someone summarize the 22 pages of discussion for me ?

txs

[T0mShane]

cam someone summarize the 22 pages of discussion for me ?

txs

"Suckenheimer! Suckenheimer?"

[visajets]

cam someone summarize the 22 pages of discussion for me ?

txs

Schotte sucks and most of us want him fired.

[Aten]

So you would prefer a larger sample than that of Schotty's entire offensive coordinating career?

That's a pretty facile argument. 'Schotty's entire offensive coordinating career' isn't your sample. Your sample is two data points, Chad and Favre, and the only variable to which you're attributing the variance in their respective performances is Schottenheimer. Does this seem to you to be a good way to demonstrate correlation?

[Larz]

That's a pretty facile argument. 'Schotty's entire offensive coordinating career' isn't your sample. Your sample is two data points, Chad and Favre, and the only variable to which you're attributing the variance in their respective performances is Schottenheimer. Does this seem to you to be a good way to demonstrate correlation?

you should try reading posts to see what the poster is trying to communicate sometime instead of just looking for an opportunity to try to use big words

it's a simple point. QB's tend to play better under other OC's.

[Larz]

"Suckenheimer! Suckenheimer?"

lolz

[jason423]

That's a pretty facile argument. 'Schotty's entire offensive coordinating career' isn't your sample. Your sample is two data points, Chad and Favre, and the only variable to which you're attributing the variance in their respective performances is Schottenheimer. Does this seem to you to be a good way to demonstrate correlation?

But if you are measuring the entire offensive performance isnt that a bit more than just two data points? And if someone is judging the play of the QB position in the offense how many data points do most coaches get? Normally you dont get a chance with multiple guys. He has had a chance with 4. Two of them at least had a track record. You cant even compare their bookend seasons to the Schottenheimer seasons in terms of actual play at the position. Im pretty sure almost every metric will tell you that. The other two guys in the system might just simply suck. If you compare how they played to other players in similar situations it was pretty poor. Maybe Clemens was just alot worse than Tarvaris Jackson and Sanchez alot worse than Joe Flacco.

The offense seems to produce a large number of interceptions. Thats ok if it produces a ton of points. It doesnt. The best they have ever finished was around 10th in 2008 taking into account SOS. That was only 12% above the average. Maybe that was Favres fault for just going insane those last 5 games, but the numbers are what they are. They give up a number of QB sacks as well.

They have essentially done 1 thing above average under Schottenheimer and that is run the football. That hit their stride in 2008 when they changed their blocking schemes and have continued to do pretty well in that regard, though things have tailed off the last 5 games or so.

I think the bottom line with him is that he is an average coordinator with minimal upside.

[jason423]

JennyVrentas: Schottenheimer said he called for Sanchez to spike outside of 1 min in 2nd half. #nyj

JennyVrentas: Schottenheimer said he didn't disagree w/Rex not liking the spike, but thought it gave off. best chnc to get set after big gain. #nyj

Since that issue had been out there during the week and this definitely answers it.

Schitty called the spike because he thought it was the best chance to get set.

If you think that means he couldn't call another play quick enough, I can see that.

Thats the stuff that drives you nuts watching this team and once again the strategic disconnect between Ryan and his OC. Thats completely Ryans fault for the way he handles the team. What Schotty was saying would have made sense if the play was a huge bomb, but it wasnt. It was a quick pass that went to Jerricho Cotchery. the play before that was incomplete. Off an incompletion you should have planned out your 3rd down call and 4th/1st down calls in that spot. The way the team was playing offense they were not going to score anyway, but you have to give them the most downs to do so with that much time left.

[Sharrow]

Schotty sucks. Fire him. He'd probably be living under a bridge in a cardboard box doing crack with a different last name.

[Sperm Edwards]

Ground and pound is a stupid name anyway. Rex just watches MMA where the term originated from. All it means is you tackle the other guy, sit on him, and punch or elbow him. 90% of the time it actually winds up being simulated homosexual sex with the guy on top holding the guy on the bottom down while he wraps his legs around the guy on top. No damage is generally dealt. Some people call it lay and pray. Usually I just call it ground and stall.

And that is the more apropos name for this offense, as all it does is Ground and Stall. They waste 2 downs running for little to no yardage, just stalling for time. If Sanchez can bail them out in the 4th quarter they can win, otherwise they just wasted the first 50 minutes of the game entirely. Very stupid, failing philosophy in the NFL.

If the Jets were a good running team it would be different. But they are predictable and also very bad at it as well. LT hasn't broken I believe 50 yards or scored a TD since the bye week. Greene has been only marginally better. The O-line got paid so they don't block anymore either. This is also why you don't break the bank on the fatasses up front usually. You want young, hungry guys. You keep drafting them and just rotating them around. I like D-brick and that's about it on that line nowadays. I loved Moore but he's injured. I want to say Mangold is still awesome but I don't think he is, I feel like he got paid and now he quit.

This offense doesn't look like ground and pound. It looks like sits and pees.

[jeti_knight]

If you were an oil tycoon and your experts told you to drill in a certain spot because they were sure there's oil there but it would cost 50 million dollars would you do it? Most likely yes I mean your rich enough where 50 million doesn't hurt you too much and you seek the profit from the oil.

Well you drill and there's no oil.. Your experts tell you that if you drill just 100 more feet down there's definitely oil but it would cost 10 million more so you do it.

Well still no oil but your experts tell you that for another 10 mil they're positive oil is just 100 feet lower.. do you drill?

That little exercise represents where we are with schotty right now, how many more seasons are we going to be fooled into believing that we are going to hit the jack pot with this guy. At some point we have to back out of this failing schotty experience before wasting too much talent and causing so much heartache for us fans, not to mention Woody's money.

[Smashmouth]

The other points we've debated around in circles a million times before and will get nowhere on there, but this one is rather easy. It's a shocker because as much as I hated Pennington, the ONE thing the guy has always done well in his career is protect the ball. Chad's TD/INT ratio under Schotty was 27:25, under every other OC in his career? 75:39. Including going 10:9 in his last year with Schotty to 19:7 just one year later. As for Favre, the guy had two of the best years in his career in that department in both the year prior (28:15) and the year after (33:7), so why would we expect a 1:1 ratio with the Jets as acceptable? (It's rhetorical, I already know the standard Schotty excuse for this one).

You can make excuses until you're blue in the face about what he's had to work with, but the fact remains that other OC's have done MUCH better than Schotty with two of the guys who were apparently entirely at fault for his offensive failures.

QB's throw Ints in Shottys offense for alot of reasons .

1. Plays are too slow to develop

2. CB's jump routes with alarming regularity

3. predictabilty.... Defenses namely LB's hang in our passing lanes making it very difficlt to complete passes or be accurate

As a QB, Predictability is killer NO MATTER who you are. When Favre was here and we were 8-3 (pre Injury) Favre was killing teams with SHORT Slants underneath, as some suggested he probably called plays in the Huddle telling sh*tty to go take a Sh!t I dont doubt that.

Now we have sanchez who cant hit the broad side of a barn in the regular offense but starts throwing lazers right on target in the hurry up.

What gives here ? The scariest thing is we have actual defensive players stating they know whats coming and that were predictable. If people can't see that this can kill QB's especally young ones then there is no reason to continue discussing the subject. No Shooty defender ever makes a good arguement because Shootys body of work all the time hes been here has been mediocre to horrible.

[Smashmouth]

Right and he is going to install this new short passing game in one week. Hell, fire Schotty now. We can do it by Sunday. Never mind the fact that Sanchez bas shown signs of being overwhelmed by even a simplified NFL offense.

No I dont think hes going to install it in a week. He knows our current playbook obviously, so at the very least, he can probably be less predictable. I called for Shottys head 7 games ago not now with 3 left to play. A half of a season whould have given Callahan some time to work in a few new wrinkles and move forward. You make it sound like Im thinking a whole new play book is in the works in a week and I never suggested that a little over exagerated dont you think.

I can see one thing and thats where Sanchez excells it seems sh*tty has no idea The stats pretty much back it as well, its predictability thats killing this offense.

[SenorGato]

http://www.newyorkjets.com/photos-and-videos/videos/1216-Brian-Schottenheimer-News-Conference/3fc632af-ea3b-432c-a1de-7bed64d5be05

Really, really good interview. Just had it on as background noise because someone posted the link at the other site.

Guy sounds perfectly competent to me. I like the "I know I'm a damn good coach and I'm good at what I do" line. I hope they win the game and he gets to stay another week too.

[donboyO]

No I dont think hes going to install it in a week. He knows our current playbook obviously, so at the very least, he can probably be less predictable. I called for Shottys head 7 games ago not now with 3 left to play. A half of a season whould have given Callahan some time to work in a few new wrinkles and move forward. You make it sound like Im thinking a whole new play book is in the works in a week and I never suggested that a little over exagerated dont you think.

I can see one thing and thats where Sanchez excells it seems sh*tty has no idea The stats pretty much back it as well, its predictability thats killing this offense.

Callahan is done a terrible job with OL this year and yet you want to promote him...yikes

[Bleedin Green]

http://www.newyorkjets.com/photos-and-videos/videos/1216-Brian-Schottenheimer-News-Conference/3fc632af-ea3b-432c-a1de-7bed64d5be05

Really, really good interview. Just had it on as background noise because someone posted the link at the other site.

Guy sounds perfectly competent to me. I like the "I know I'm a damn good coach and I'm good at what I do" line. I hope they win the game and he gets to stay another week too.

Oh, well he sounds competent and he says he's a damn good coach. Why didn't you say so before? That changes everything!

Seriously, I'm sure he's a wonderful guy and probably tries really hard at his job, but that doesn't make him any better at it than he is.

[RutgersJetFan]

"I know I'm a damn good coach and I'm good at what I do"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXqnigQNhDM

[SenorGato]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXqnigQNhDM

G'Dammit I am RIGHT and you HAVE to hear it! Repent!

[#27TheDominator]

No I dont think hes going to install it in a week. He knows our current playbook obviously, so at the very least, he can probably be less predictable. I called for Shottys head 7 games ago not now with 3 left to play. A half of a season whould have given Callahan some time to work in a few new wrinkles and move forward. You make it sound like Im thinking a whole new play book is in the works in a week and I never suggested that a little over exagerated dont you think.

I can see one thing and thats where Sanchez excells it seems sh*tty has no idea The stats pretty much back it as well, its predictability thats killing this offense.

I quoted you, but you are not the only one that thinks Callahan will turn this O into some kind of juggernaut. Most of the people spouting Callahan think it will help the running game. How exactly I'm not sure, since he is supposedly in charge of it now. I think Callahan is kind of a douche who has completely lost teams and fanbases in alarmingly quick fashion in Oakland and Nebraska. People complain about Rex, but nobody seems to remember Callahan alienated all the vets on that excellent Raider a year after getting to the super bowl. Super bowl to 4-12 and universally hated by guys like Tim Brown and Charles Woodson. I'm pretty sure that he said Woodson was too old to peform at a high level. In 2003!

The fact is, Sanchez is far from ready for the west coast offense. He is also probably not ready for ANY offense and that is why I think they are predictable. They are protecting him. Notice how the games have all been close? All except one. They are in every game because of the defense and that is partially because this "predictable" play calling has limited Sanchez mistakes. This two game skid really set everybody off well notice a couple of things: 1. against the Dolphins the boy wonder threw the ball to the other team several times. He threw the ball on outs after the CB undercut the WR. Released the ball after the DB undercut. Poor choices. He also fumbled four times. Limiting the passing attempts kept us in that game and if they had just run-run-pass-punted instead of fumbling and INT'ing they probably would have won. 2. Against the Pats they tried to open it up as the game got out of hand because the D fell apart. When they did he threw three picks. They came later because they were forced to open it up.

[#27TheDominator]

you should try reading posts to see what the poster is trying to communicate sometime instead of just looking for an opportunity to try to use big words

it's a simple point. QB's tend to play better under other OC's.

Facile isn't a particularly big word.

[jack48]

Callahan is done a terrible job with OL this year and yet you want to promote him...yikes

Wedon't seem to be running all of the running plays we were last year or earlier this year. The toss play has disappeared and that was always a decent gainer for us. Our run plays look remarkably similar to one aother, and our selection of plays very limited. I blame the play caller for that.