Official JN Schottenheimer Discussion Thread

[JustInFudge]

It's gotta be scary for Rex. You'd really have to wonder if he has enough autonomy to really bench Sanchez if he needs to, considering what that would do to both Sanchez and the image of the Jets franchise. If worse came to worst for Sanchez against the Steelers (say, three turnovers in the first half), do you think Rex would pull the trigger?

I doubt it. He's married to the guy. You cant yank him now.

On Playbook, they broke down the kids game, and he was awful. But the scheme sucks too. Its a combo of both. Yanking him does nothing because Brunell is a fossil. He's so bad, Clemens looked twice as good in the preseason.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

Replacing him is only a solution when you have something sitting behind him that might be better.

[Jetscode1]

Probably. Its truly ashame.

I feel bad for Rex because I really like him a lot. But he's married to his own worst enemies right now. I just hope he can fix it so they dont run him out of town.

Schotty might not be the main problem, he may be the scapegoat but someone's got to be the fall guy and his name is on the product. Especially considering his coach gives him complete control with an offense this loaded.

If the offense doesnt turn it around, Schitty is gone. Rex doesnt really have a choice. Everyone wants to talk about firing him now, there's no reason to. I do think you should take play calling duties from him. But lets be honest, everyone that is involved with the offense is examining the mistakes and nothing is happening. My point is, the solution might not be on this team. You cant bring in a new OC right now. Firing him serves no purpose.

The problem is, Rex has taken zero interest in the Offensive side of the ball....and now we expect or demand to take the the playcalling ability away from Schcotty Jr. Most likely its not going to happen....my thoughts...Rex expected Schotty to be at least as capable as he was on the D side @ Baltimore....I mean the comparisons to Buddy versus the comparisons to Marty...Lo and behold Rex finally discovers that most prodigy are that in name only...and actually worse coaches than their more infamous fathers...the best we can hope for...someone like Kubiak available at the end of season to groom/make smart with Sanchize...

[JustInFudge]

The problem is, Rex has taken zero interest in the Offensive side of the ball....and now we expect or demand to take the the playcalling ability away from Schcotty Jr. Most likely its not going to happen....my thoughts...Rex expected Schotty to be at least as capable as he was on the D side @ Baltimore....I mean the comparisons to Buddy versus the comparisons to Marty...Lo and behold Rex finally discovers that most prodigy are that in name only...and actually worse coaches than their more infamous fathers...the best we can hope for...someone like Kubiak available at the end of season to groom/make smart with Sanchize...

I think you take them from him and give them to Callahan or Cavanaugh. Neither is going to happen...but I think it would make it interesting and see what Rex has got in house.

[Bleedin Green]

Has the thought crossed your mind, it may be Sanchez not Schott?

Has the thought crossed your mind, even if it is Sanchez, that doesn't mean it's not also Schotty.

[SenorGato]

Hey Bleedin Green sorry to bother you but remember that question of whether or not you believe that Brady/Manning/Brees/Rivers/other top QBs are good because their offenses catch defenses by surprise? I was just wondering what your answer was.

[donboyO]

Has the thought crossed your mind, even if it is Sanchez, that doesn't mean it's not also Schotty.

I support getting rid of Schott, mainly to find out if Sanchez is legit. The OL has been putrid, no one from this line going to Pro-Bowl this year. People scream for Callahan to call plays, he cant even do his own job

[NJ]

If we keep deactivating Clemens for Brunell, I sure hope not. Even I think Sanchez gives us a better chance to win than Brunell.

Agreed - Brunell was Brutall from what I saw of him thus far. Clemens must really suck in drills though to not even get close to getting another look.

[Integrity28]

Has the thought crossed your mind, it may be Sanchez not Schott?

Of course it has, but...

Schotty got 4 QBs during his test-drive.

Sanchez deserves at least one NFL offense to work in before we proclaim him a bust... that and maybe, just maybe we can wait until he completes his 2nd season? Sanchez is more or less a blue chip QB, who ONLY started for 1 year in college. You don't give up on guys like that after a year and a half. He has shown he can play at this level at times. He is clearly struggling with the system he is in, and our OC doesn't seem to know how to help him. Do the ******* math.

Seriously, what the **** is wrong with this fan base that they are okay with dumping QB after QB, except Ratliff, you all freaked out when we got rid of him for some ******* retarded reason, but heaven forbid we kick a coordinator to the curb after 4 years of "meh."

For crying out loud, last year Rex had to come up with that cornball color-coded system to influence Schotty's playcalling, then he put Callahan in charge of the running game... leaving Schotty to concentrate exclusively on Sanchez and the passing game, and what? Nothing. Rex gave him back the "whole" offense this year, and what? Nothing.

Time to move on.

[donboyO]

Of course it has, but...

Schotty got 4 QBs during his test-drive.

Sanchez deserves at least one NFL offense to work in before we proclaim him a bust... that and maybe, just maybe we can wait until he completes his 2nd season? Sanchez is more or less a blue chip QB, who ONLY started for 1 year in college. You don't give up on guys like that after a year and a half. He has shown he can play at this level at times. He is clearly struggling with the system he is in, and our OC doesn't seem to know how to help him. Do the ******* math.

Seriously, what the **** is wrong with this fan base that they are okay with dumping QB after QB, except Ratliff, you all freaked out when we got rid of him for some ******* retarded reason, but heaven forbid we kick a coordinator to the curb after 4 years of "meh."

For crying out loud, last year Rex had to come up with that cornball color-coded system to influence Schotty's playcalling, then he put Callahan in charge of the running game... leaving Schotty to concentrate exclusively on Sanchez and the passing game, and what? Nothing. Rex gave him back the "whole" offense this year, and what? Nothing.

What 4 QB's?? aside from Favre ...jets were 8-3 then he tore his bicep and seson went south

Clemens doesnt count. Jet fans were not screaming at Schott during playoffs when we kicked Cinn and SD's a$$ and were 1/2 away from SB.

Get a new OC, see if Sanchez can be more than a warm weather QB. If he improves it will be a great move. If it doesnt time to find another QB

Time to move on.

[aec4]

It's funny because Schotty during his countless interviews has even said: paraphrasing, 'everyone has a trend or certain style they tend to run. it's my job to figure out my trends and change them etc.' Obviously everyone has a certain style to their calling a game, but I don't know if it's because he's hamstrung by nacho or what, but his seem even more evident than the other OCs I've seen. Hopefully something gets done, because coupled with the lack of execution, this offense is anemic.

He must have been handstrung by favre Pennington and Clemens too

[Sperm Edwards]

I guess its also possible that the Jets have had an inordinate amount of 2 minute drill type 1st down plays that skews the number a bit since you are forced to pass there.

I think it's more than possible. We've been in a few 2-minute drills this year and actually moved the ball. In how many of those 2-minute drills did we run on any of our first downs?

So then consider that most of the game we are not in a 2-minute drill. What's our % of first downs running the ball when we're not? Call it a hunch, but the percentage is going to be higher than the overall number.

[BP]

I really think this is rex more then schitty

This is ground and pound baby, right? the Jets were built for cold weather. this our time of the year. who said that again?

[BP]

This is ground and pound baby, right? the Jets were built for cold weather. this our time of the year. who said that again?

[Bleedin Green]

Hey Bleedin Green sorry to bother you but remember that question of whether or not you believe that Brady/Manning/Brees/Rivers/other top QBs are good because their offenses catch defenses by surprise? I was just wondering what your answer was.

This comes down to the same basic principle that the world is not one of absolutes, it's not a matter of one or the other. Is the play-calling the sole reason they are good? Absolutely not. Does good play-calling benefit them and improve their ability to make plays? Absolutely. In terms of "catching people by surprise", I don't think that's what anyone's talking about. There's a difference between that and the defense being able to read the upcoming play with regulatory. Simple logic tells you a defense is going to have a higher rate of success stopping a play if they already know what it is in advance. After all, wasn't that the entire basis of the Spygate scandal? It's not about randomly running flea flickers and reverses and option plays to trick the defense, it's a matter of making sure they need to account for everyone and everything on any given play. So really, it's more a matter of an effective offensive scheme that fits your players than anything else.

Manning is impossible to debate, because he's been in the same offense from the day he's stepped into the league, but Brady is a perfect example. We can go back and look at the changes over the years, and see how the shifts in offensive philosophy helped him in 2007 and all that other stuff, but in reality we don't even need to look past this year. Do you dispute the fact that Brady has played significantly better football since the Patriots got rid of Moss and changed around their offensive scheme? Granted, the guy was one of the best QBs in the league either way, but there is a noticeable difference in his level of play.

Brees is another good example, he came into the league and was just plain awful for years, to the point that after 3 years they went out and drafted his replacement. He turns it around and turns into a pretty good QB at the end of his time in San Diego. Then suddenly he moves onto New Orleans and in no time is putting up some of the best numbers in the league and is talked about as one of the top 3 QBs. You don't think the change in coaching and offensive schemes had anything to do with that?

Is a Peyton Manning going to run the same offense better than Mark Sanchez every time? Of course he will, but that doesn't mean Manning will perform just as well in two different offenses.

Also, keep in mind if you are designing your offense for a Brady/Manning/Brees/Rivers type, that's not exactly the soundest strategy in the world, as you are severely playing against the odds considering how rare those types are. The Jets, like 75% of the league, simply need to realize they don't currently have an elite QB, and don't act as if they do. Call me crazy, I'd rather have a team that understands what they have and plays to those strengths and weaknesses as opposed to deciding what they want to do first and then just waiting around for that low % chance that the perfect QB will fall into their laps for them to do what they want to.

Keep in mind, none of this is even taking into consideration what impact coaching has on the development of the QB to begin with. Does Tom Brady become what he is now if he's drafted by the Detroit Lions? What if Manning comes out a year early and becomes a Jet? But that's just a whole other debate.

[HessStation]

Admit it, you want to pop Brian's Schotten-himen.

Senor Ghottenheimer?

[Bergen Jet]

The Jets are undefeated in games where the offense produces but a single touchdown. The Jets are also undefeated when the offense scores in double digits.

18 points in 4 losses. 18 points in a single game is a pretty pathetic showing for a decent offense... let alone in 4 losses.

In 3 home losses the Jets gave up a combined 29 points. 10 of which were gift wrapped by the Offense.

THIS is why you fire Schotty and this is why you also begin to hold Rex accountable for the ineptatude of an entire unit.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the O setting the tone with all the first quarter scoring. I think on the season they are averaging just over 2 points in the first quarter. Yet another reason to can the OC.

[Matt39]

The Jets are undefeated in games where the offense produces but a single touchdown. The Jets are also undefeated when the offense scores in double digits.

18 points in 4 losses. 18 points in a single game is a pretty pathetic showing for a decent offense... let alone in 4 losses.

In 3 home losses the Jets gave up a combined 29 points. 10 of which were gift wrapped by the Offense.

THIS is why you fire Schotty and this is why you also begin to hold Rex accountable for the ineptatude of an entire unit.

Its more so the QB than anything. The offense stinks because Sanchez stinks. Schotty is here because his last name and obviously needs to go....but Sanchez is horrible. His arm is terrible, his decision making is getting worse, his pouts and sulks on the field....what are the positives? He hasn't improved an iota from last season.

[Sperm Edwards]

Your the Tanny lover right?

WTF!?

[Sperm Edwards]

For all the calls for Josh McDaniels to be the OC, I'm curious how anyone thinks that is even slightly likely. The guy is still on great terms with Belichick and is drawing a HC salary for doing nothing right now. There is a greater chance that the Jets will suddenly develop the into NFL's #1 offense with Schottenheimer still here, starting with this upcoming game in Pittsburgh.

[CTM]

The Jets are undefeated in games where the offense produces but a single touchdown. The Jets are also undefeated when the offense scores in double digits.

18 points in 4 losses. 18 points in a single game is a pretty pathetic showing for a decent offense... let alone in 4 losses.

In 3 home losses the Jets gave up a combined 29 points. 10 of which were gift wrapped by the Offense.

THIS is why you fire Schotty and this is why you also begin to hold Rex accountable for the ineptatude of an entire unit.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the O setting the tone with all the first quarter scoring. I think on the season they are averaging just over 2 points in the first quarter. Yet another reason to can the OC.

Meh, if memory serves 3 of those games the otehr offense didn't do much either cause the weather was nasty...

In those 3 games out defense has allowed 10ppg, in the other 10 they've allowed 21.3.. Clearly the offense was hurt by and the defense helped by the weather

[Bleedin Green]

For all the calls for Josh McDaniels to be the OC, I'm curious how anyone thinks that is even slightly likely. The guy is still on great terms with Belichick and is drawing a HC salary for doing nothing right now. There is a greater chance that the Jets will suddenly develop the into NFL's #1 offense with Schottenheimer still here, starting with this upcoming game in Pittsburgh.

That's not true, I'm fairly certain the chances of either of those two things happening are exactly the same.

[Sperm Edwards]

That's not true, I'm fairly certain the chances of either of those two things happening are exactly the same.

You mean like dividing by zero?

[Bleedin Green]

You mean like dividing by zero?

Exactly!

[Sharrow]

Most irrational love affair: Fred Jetstone and Brooks Bollinger, or Gato and Schotty?

[serphnx]

I really don't want to watch the Jets play this weekend. Am I alone in this? I'm seriously planning on hitting up some sports bar and watching a different game.

[Vicious89x]

Gato and I28 lead in posts in the official merged thread. I believe this tells us all we need to know.

[Bleedin Green]

Gato and I28 lead in posts in the official merged thread. I believe this tells us all we need to know.

All I know is I no longer have any idea WTF is going on in this thread. There's now like 4 different overlapping conversations on the varying things about Schotty that suck. How are we supposed to keep straight which parts of his sucktitude we're debating?!?

And did we seriously need to merge this with a thread from 8 months ago? Come on!

[Integrity28]

Gato and I28 lead in posts in the official merged thread. I believe this tells us all we need to know.

I hate those guys.

[Vicious89x]

I hate those guys.

I like them. It's like a spectator sport.

[Vicious89x]

All I know is I no longer have any idea WTF is going on in this thread. There's now like 4 different overlapping conversations on the varying things about Schotty that suck. How are we supposed to keep straight which parts of his sucktitude we're debating?!?

And did we seriously need to merge this with a thread from 8 months ago? Come on!

OMG WE CAN'T EVEN MERGE THREADS RIGHT. Anything associated with the Jets is just destined to fail.

[SenorGato]

This comes down to the same basic principle that the world is not one of absolutes, it's not a matter of one or the other. Is the play-calling the sole reason they are good? Absolutely not. Does good play-calling benefit them and improve their ability to make plays? Absolutely.

They very often call their own plays at the line. What to make of this?

In terms of "catching people by surprise", I don't think that's what anyone's talking about. There's a difference between that and the defense being able to read the upcoming play with regulatory. Simple logic tells you a defense is going to have a higher rate of success stopping a play if they already know what it is in advance. After all, wasn't that the entire basis of the Spygate scandal? It's not about randomly running flea flickers and reverses and option plays to trick the defense, it's a matter of making sure they need to account for everyone and everything on any given play. So really, it's more a matter of an effective offensive scheme that fits your players than anything else.

Again...run or pass...None of those guys or their teams make it a secret that they want to pass. How come teams can't stop it anyway? You think Rex spent more than a couple hours on the Pats' running game over the 10 days? You think in last year's playoff game against the Colts the Jets spent more than a few minutes on their running game? Their offenses aren't the pyramids...there is no great mystery to what they're doing and they clearly trend in the direction of pass and pass ALOT.

Also, when you say a D should have to take into account everyone and everything are we including the QB this time? You ignored Brady in previous analysis of this year's Pats offense recently IIRC. Should teams fear the Sanchez yet?

Manning is impossible to debate, because he's been in the same offense from the day he's stepped into the league, but Brady is a perfect example. We can go back and look at the changes over the years, and see how the shifts in offensive philosophy helped him in 2007 and all that other stuff, but in reality we don't even need to look past this year. Do you dispute the fact that Brady has played significantly better football since the Patriots got rid of Moss and changed around their offensive scheme? Granted, the guy was one of the best QBs in the league either way, but there is a noticeable difference in his level of play.

Manning is relevant because I brought up QBs who are the masters of their domain. They control what goes on in their offense. But anyway...

What's the significance of Brady playing better without Moss? Why ignore that Brady played in this type of offense from '01-'07? This is the offense he grew up in, not the Moss offense...and I'm not sure what your argument is getting at right now...

Brees is another good example, he came into the league and was just plain awful for years, to the point that after 3 years they went out and drafted his replacement. He turns it around and turns into a pretty good QB at the end of his time in San Diego. Then suddenly he moves onto New Orleans and in no time is putting up some of the best numbers in the league and is talked about as one of the top 3 QBs. You don't think the change in coaching and offensive schemes had anything to do with that?

A couple things...

1. Funnily enough Brian Schottenheimer was Drew Brees' coach in SD when Brees turned his career down.

2. Brees went from being one of the best QBs in the AFC during his last couple years in SD to a top QB in the NFC...despite changing offenses and coaches. I don't think he took his coaches from SD with him. Perhaps the guy is just legitimately awesome, hard working, and a very, very, very good QB and player?

Is a Peyton Manning going to run the same offense better than Mark Sanchez every time? Of course he will, but that doesn't mean Manning will perform just as well in two different offenses.

Huh? Translation needed.

Also, keep in mind if you are designing your offense for a Brady/Manning/Brees/Rivers type, that's not exactly the soundest strategy in the world, as you are severely playing against the odds considering how rare those types are. The Jets, like 75% of the league, simply need to realize they don't currently have an elite QB, and don't act as if they do. Call me crazy, I'd rather have a team that understands what they have and plays to those strengths and weaknesses as opposed to deciding what they want to do first and then just waiting around for that low % chance that the perfect QB will fall into their laps for them to do what they want to.

I'm sorry...you jump into the top 5...pay the guy 50 million...and he SHOULDN'T be held to the standard of one day becoming an elite at his position?

Also, I'd say the Jets going out and building a top OL and a top rushing attack IS them taking into account that the QB isn't elite yet.

Keep in mind, none of this is even taking into consideration what impact coaching has on the development of the QB to begin with. Does Tom Brady become what he is now if he's drafted by the Detroit Lions? What if Manning comes out a year early and becomes a Jet? But that's just a whole other debate.

Yes...so lets do this...Mark Sanchez last year threw up 12/20 over the full season...this year he's at 16/11...lets say he's not on the Jets but rather on a fictional team you don't see as often...all you have are his stats and highlights/lowlights...keep in mind this is a true sophomore player...would you really come to the conclusion that he's being coached poorly just because he's looked bad 2 games in a row? Is that really the conclusion that would jump first into your mind?

[Integrity28]

I like them. It's like a spectator sport.

Haha... not anymore. The monkey seems to be distracted with dick slapping, and the cat? She just seems to like to chase her own tail.

[Integrity28]

They very often call their own plays at the line. What to make of this?

Again...run or pass...None of those guys or their teams make it a secret that they want to pass. How come teams can't stop it anyway? You think Rex spent more than a couple hours on the Pats' running game over the 10 days? You think in last year's playoff game against the Colts the Jets spent more than a few minutes on their running game? Their offenses aren't the pyramids...there is no great mystery to what they're doing and they clearly trend in the direction of pass and pass ALOT.

Also, when you say a D should have to take into account everyone and everything are we including the QB this time? You ignored Brady in previous analysis of this year's Pats offense recently IIRC. Should teams fear the Sanchez yet?

Manning is relevant because I brought up QBs who are the masters of their domain. They control what goes on in their offense. But anyway...

What's the significance of Brady playing better without Moss? Why ignore that Brady played in this type of offense from '01-'07? This is the offense he grew up in, not the Moss offense...and I'm not sure what your argument is getting at right now...

A couple things...

1. Funnily enough Brian Schottenheimer was Drew Brees' coach in SD when Brees turned his career down.

2. Brees went from being one of the best QBs in the AFC during his last couple years in SD to a top QB in the NFC...despite changing offenses and coaches. I don't think he took his coaches from SD with him. Perhaps the guy is just legitimately awesome, hard working, and a very, very, very good QB and player?

Huh? Translation needed.

I'm sorry...you jump into the top 5...pay the guy 50 million...and he SHOULDN'T be held to the standard of one day becoming an elite at his position?

Also, I'd say the Jets going out and building a top OL and a top rushing attack IS them taking into account that the QB isn't elite yet.

Yes...so lets do this...Mark Sanchez last year threw up 12/20 over the full season...this year he's at 16/11...lets say he's not on the Jets but rather on a fictional team you don't see as often...all you have are his stats and highlights/lowlights...keep in mind this is a true sophomore player...would you really come to the conclusion that he's being coached poorly just because he's looked bad 2 games in a row? Is that really the conclusion that would jump first into your mind?

[jason423]

Normally I wont just throw a link up to the stuff on my site, but I just wrote this yesterday about the Jets offense, their play selection compared to a few other teams, and how good or bad they are in certain situations.

http://www.nyjetscap.com/jetsplaycalling.php