Allen discusses his inaccuracy.

[Untouchable]

9 minutes ago, rangerous said:

i'd say in the 27 years since favre was drafted the game has changed a little.

Sure, now you have all of these spread, air raid offenses across the country that are designed to not give the QB too much to think about and get the ball out of his hands as quickly as possible.

That’s why the Mayfield vs Allen debate on completion percentage is such a lame ass argument. Allen wasn’t playing behind arguably the best OL in the country while throwing a bunch of smoke screens and short slants on 80% of his passing attempts. And he sure as hell never had talent like Sterling Shepard, Dede Westbrook and Mark Andrews to throw to.

[burkett2112]

5 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Oh right I forgot football didn’t involve quarterbacks throwing to wide receivers back then

It's amazing how many passionate football fans dont understand a thing about the game.

Ya know Joe Namath barely was a 50 percent passer and threw more picks than TDs? Unitas was similar.

When Marino played in college they hadn't even perfected the drop back yet. Receivers got manhandled by dbs. These weren't sophisticated passing attacks.

When you compare Allen to his contemporaries (last 20 years is more than fair) there's never been a QB like him succeed. Top QBs win, typically at a big school, and they put up numbers. Period.

[dbatesman]

38 minutes ago, Larz said:

Show your math 

Find the average college completion percentage for 25 QBs taken in the first round or so in the 80s 

If it's under 60 %, your point stands 

Otherwise you need to find a better explanation 

Going through the first round every year would take some more time, but FYI, the leaders (top 20) in completion percentage averaged 60.7% in 1990 and 66.1% this year. Also instructive: only 12 guys in the country were at 60% or above in 1990. This year it was 54.

[Larz]

29 minutes ago, BurnleyJet said:

It's ok Pat Kirwan says Allen does not throw screens. So he's defacto 65% and it's only when he throws left he's got a problem..

 

http://www.newyorkjets.com/videos/videos/Pat-Kirwan-on-the-Top-3-Picks-in-the-NFL-Draft/f251947c-6a04-4b0c-91a4-a72e1d64602b

It's weird how the NFL insiders consider Allen a legit prospect. They should listen to the fans more often I guess. 

Most QBs have a weakness to some area of the field. Kirwan said it's footwork related and easily fixed 

Brady can't throw deep anywhere, pats just don't ask him to do it 

If I'm Chris Johnson the key factor with Allen is asking if the Jets have the staff in place to develop him. 

 

[Mackman55]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Oh man, he secretly had a great game against the Chippewas!  You sold me.  

Put on the tape of his game against Oregon last year. I dare anyone to say he is a first round pick after watching that!

[Larz]

1 minute ago, dbatesman said:

Going through the first round every year would take some more time, but FYI, the leaders (top 20) in completion percentage averaged 60.7% in 1990 and 66.1% this year. Also instructive: only 12 guys in the country were at 60% or above in 1990. This year it was 54.

Thanks.  I found a list where the top 16 career completion rates were all recent players, but there was a guy at 65 % from the 80s and Steve Young was 65 %

I have seen evaluators mention the Wyoming offense goes deep a lot with few screens and short throws, which is similar to an 80s offense. 

What makes Allen interesting is how much he seems to have improved in the last 3 months 

I would be more comfortable with Allen if the improvement occurred during actual game play, but it's still there. 

I can see why people don't want Allen, but for a franchise that plays outdoors in bad weather with 2 bridge QBs it's not a crazy idea to take him 

My concern with Allen is more decision making and happy feet. 

Can bates get him to the point that he can reach his potential? 

That's the question 

 

[Bruce Harper]

Remember that Palmer worked with Hack in fixing his footwork too?  What a coincidence.

[dbatesman]

6 minutes ago, Larz said:

Thanks.  I found a list where the top 16 career completion rates were all recent players, but there was a guy at 65 % from the 80s and Steve Young was 65 %

I have seen evaluators mention the Wyoming offense goes deep a lot with few screens and short throws, which is similar to an 80s offense. 

What makes Allen interesting is how much he seems to have improved in the last 3 months 

I would be more comfortable with Allen if the improvement occurred during actual game play, but it's still there. 

I can see why people don't want Allen, but for a franchise that plays outdoors in bad weather with 2 bridge QBs it's not a crazy idea to take him 

My concern with Allen is more decision making and happy feet. 

Can bates get him to the point that he can reach his potential? 

That's the question 

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/87389/jets-have-a-josh-allen-conundrum-poor-scheme-fit-vs-big-upside

He's just not good. I wouldn't touch him anywhere in the first round, and probably not in the second, either.

[FidelioJet]

46 minutes ago, rangerous said:

i'd say in the 27 years since favre was drafted the game has changed a little.

Except Wisconsin wasn't running a spread, air raid typcial college offense.  He wasn't dumping off or throwing sceens...

Essentially they were running a 80's college offense.

[Larz]

1 minute ago, dbatesman said:

http://www.espn.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/87389/jets-have-a-josh-allen-conundrum-poor-scheme-fit-vs-big-upside

He's just not good.

Ok, it's not the offense lol

I'm trying really hard not to rank these guys so I can enjoy draft day so I'm just going to stick to my plan that as long as they don't take chubb or Barkley I'm good 

[dbatesman]

4 minutes ago, Larz said:

Ok, it's not the offense lol

I'm trying really hard not to rank these guys so I can enjoy draft day so I'm just going to stick to my plan that as long as they don't take chubb or Barkley I'm good 

I hear you. I don’t love this class, but I’d honestly be ok with any of the QBs other than Allen.

[T0mShane]

16 minutes ago, Larz said:

Thanks.  I found a list where the top 16 career completion rates were all recent players, but there was a guy at 65 % from the 80s and Steve Young was 65 %

I have seen evaluators mention the Wyoming offense goes deep a lot with few screens and short throws, which is similar to an 80s offense. 

What makes Allen interesting is how much he seems to have improved in the last 3 months 

I would be more comfortable with Allen if the improvement occurred during actual game play, but it's still there. 

I can see why people don't want Allen, but for a franchise that plays outdoors in bad weather with 2 bridge QBs it's not a crazy idea to take him 

My concern with Allen is more decision making and happy feet. 

Can bates get him to the point that he can reach his potential? 

That's the question 

 

@dbatesman dropped the math on your beak and now you have other questions. Check your beak for them answers, homeboy.

[Larz]

34 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

@dbatesman dropped the math on your beak and now you have other questions. Check your beak for them answers, homeboy.

Do you hide behind big guys in fights too? 

Go away lol

[Larz]

Can you guys help me find Shane in this gif ?

 

[legler82]

3 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Geno Smith 71% completion percentage playing in the same system and same conference how did he not extrapolate that accuracy to the nfl?

I was a different game way back then...LOL.

[jetstream23]

4 hours ago, BurnleyJet said:

It's ok Pat Kirwan says Allen does not throw screens. So he's defacto 65% and it's only when he throws left he's got a problem..

 

http://www.newyorkjets.com/videos/videos/Pat-Kirwan-on-the-Top-3-Picks-in-the-NFL-Draft/f251947c-6a04-4b0c-91a4-a72e1d64602b

He can’t throw to the left? Lol. Holy sh!t. Well that won’t be hard for opponents to defend. 

[Gangrene]

6 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

But having a low completion % historically means you will be a failure, outside of a couple guys from like 20+ years ago. 

Matthew Stafford, 57.1% college completion rate. 133 passer rating.

Josh Allen, 56.2% college completion rate, 137 passer rating.

Stats tell part of the story, but let's not pretend you can judge an NFL career pased solely on completion percentage. If it was that easy there would be no need for scouts.

 

 

[Integrity28]

Is this the James Franklin thread?

[Villain The Foe]

8 hours ago, dbatesman said:

http://www.espn.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/87389/jets-have-a-josh-allen-conundrum-poor-scheme-fit-vs-big-upside

He's just not good. I wouldn't touch him anywhere in the first round, and probably not in the second, either.

Great find

Josh Allen is the perfect example of how sports media can influence the opinions of folks. If the football media wasn't hyping this guy over the past 3 months NO ONE would be talking about Allen at #3 or even having him in the top 4 best quarterbacks. 

Allen has never dominated a football game. Matter of fact, if his college offense was based on being such a "vertical passing offense" and Mayfield was making a living off of screens, then why do the stats not support that? 

 

Passes of 0-9 yards

Mayfield 99-135 for 1,201 yards 73% comp rate

Allen 73-113 for 557 yards 64.6% comp rate

Mayfield only threw 22 more passes than Allen in this category. 

 

Passes of 10-19 yards

Mayfield 90-131 for 1,524 yards 68.7% comp rate

Allen 47-85 for 781 yards 55.3% comp rate

 

Passes of 20+

Mayfield 40-84 for 1,125 yards 47.6% comp rate

Allen 16-51 for 469 yards and a 31.4% comp rate. 

 

The stats themselves tell the story. Allen's threw almost as many passes from 0-9 yards as Mayfield, yet Mayfield completely out threw Allen from the 10-19 range in which he completed more passes in this area than Allen even attempted, and 20+ ranges where Mayfield almost tripped his completion amount in comparison to Allen while maintaining a higher completion rate. 

 

 

Josh Allen is the biggest hype I've ever seen. This doesn't mean he cant have a good career, but at this current stage, there is no realistic reason why this guy is even considered a top guy. It's all based on physical traits, and size doesn't make you a good football player. He's a 3rd round quality player a this stage. 

[LAD_Brooklyn]

11 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Great find

Josh Allen is the perfect example of how sports media can influence the opinions of folks. If the football media wasn't hyping this guy over the past 3 months NO ONE would be talking about Allen at #3 or even having him in the top 4 best quarterbacks.  

Ok, so we're going to act as if he wasn't already in the convo 3 months prior, better yet pre-season?

[legler82]

 

[legler82]

 

[LAD_Brooklyn]

31 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Great find

Josh Allen is the perfect example of how sports media can influence the opinions of folks. If the football media wasn't hyping this guy over the past 3 months NO ONE would be talking about Allen at #3 or even having him in the top 4 best quarterbacks. 

Allen has never dominated a football game. Matter of fact, if his college offense was based on being such a "vertical passing offense" and Mayfield was making a living off of screens, then why do the stats not support that? 

 

Passes of 0-9 yards

Mayfield 99-135 for 1,201 yards 73% comp rate

Allen 73-113 for 557 yards 64.6% comp rate

Mayfield only threw 22 more passes than Allen in this category. 

 

Passes of 10-19 yards

Mayfield 90-131 for 1,524 yards 68.7% comp rate

Allen 47-85 for 781 yards 55.3% comp rate

 

Passes of 20+

Mayfield 40-84 for 1,125 yards 47.6% comp rate

Allen 16-51 for 469 yards and a 31.4% comp rate. 

 

The stats themselves tell the story. Allen's threw almost as many passes from 0-9 yards as Mayfield, yet Mayfield completely out threw Allen from the 10-19 range in which he completed more passes in this area than Allen even attempted, and 20+ ranges where Mayfield almost tripped his completion amount in comparison to Allen while maintaining a higher completion rate. 

 

 

Josh Allen is the biggest hype I've ever seen. This doesn't mean he cant have a good career, but at this current stage, there is no realistic reason why this guy is even considered a top guy. It's all based on physical traits, and size doesn't make you a good football player. He's a 3rd round quality player a this stage. 

Allen doesn't have good stats in 2017, that's not debatable. Why are you acting as if someone said otherwise. Mayfield had great stats, in fact best in the country (Heisman winner). He was the best college QB in the nation this past season and produced video games numbers in Oklahoma  Air-Raid attack. Better then Jackson, Darnold and Rosen. 

But looking at 1st round traits team want in a 1st round QB Mayfield doesn't fit the bill. Not only is he 6 feet like Brees and Russell but has tiny hands. Then come from this gimmick play option spread. 

[Villain The Foe]

4 hours ago, LAD_Brooklyn said:

Ok, so we're going to act as if he wasn't already in the convo 3 months prior, better yet pre-season?

So we're going to act as if this video talked about Josh Allen being a top QB in college??? The conversation in the video you provided talked about his journey to Wyoming, it stated nothing about his "traits" and and how it makes him a top 5 pick and all of the nonsense we hear today. 

 

4 hours ago, LAD_Brooklyn said:

Allen doesn't have good stats in 2017, that's not debatable. Why are you acting as if someone said otherwise. Mayfield had great stats, in fact best in the country (Heisman winner). He was the best college QB in the nation this past season and produced video games numbers in Oklahoma  Air-Raid attack. Better then Jackson, Darnold and Rosen. 

But looking at 1st round traits team want in a 1st round QB Mayfield doesn't fit the bill. Not only is he 6 feet like Brees and Russell but has tiny hands. Then come from this gimmick play option spread. 

Why so many actors? Do I look like an actor (got up to look myself in the mirror)? Last time I checked, 1st round traits include anticipation, accuracy, ball placement, production etc. How the heck does Mayfield NOT fit that bill? WHY YOU ACTING like Mayfield hasn't put up production traits that teams look for in 1st round talent just so you can act like physical traits are the only traits that teams in the first round look for? Furthermore, if it was solely about these physical traits (given that Allen doesn't show performance traits consistently) then why isnt Mike White in this conversation as a top player? He's 6'4, has a powerful arm and had a better career than Allen. He's the same height as Allen and is taller than all of the top QB's? It makes no sense. 

You can criticize the Gimmick that is the spread option, but I'll leave you with this....directly from the mouth of Drew Brees regarding the spread...a system that he played in by the way.  

If Mayfield didn't fit the bill, he wouldn't be mocked in the top 5 consistently. Why you acting bro?

Allen may also be mocked, but it has nothing to do with his performance but his physical traits...which makes him an immediate boom/bust candidate. 

Have the last word my friend. As long as the Jets dont draft him, then I dont really give a rats behind about Allen. 

[Sonny Werblin]

I find it telling that the Allen detractors base their criticism solely on his play, while the Rosen and Mayfield critics like to work in that they don't like them personally i.e. they are jerks.

[Villain The Foe]

Just now, Sonny Werblin said:

I find it telling that the Allen detractors base their criticism solely on his play, while the Rosen and Mayfield critics like to work in that they don't like them personally i.e. they are jerks.

I also find it telling that those who defend Rosen or Mayfield do it with performance on the field, yet defenders of Allen talk about his physical traits...blame everything on his targets, excuse his inaccuracy away and will only use his senior bowl highlights...a game where he took a couple series and called it a day.

 

 

[Philc1]

14 hours ago, legler82 said:

I was a different game way back then...LOL.

Can’t compare 2012 to 2018 football was a different sport dude!

[Philc1]

11 hours ago, Gangrene said:

Matthew Stafford, 57.1% college completion rate. 133 passer rating.

Josh Allen, 56.2% college completion rate, 137 passer rating.

Stats tell part of the story, but let's not pretend you can judge an NFL career pased solely on completion percentage. If it was that easy there would be no need for scouts.

 

 

Stanford had 55% completion percentage in college first 2 years in Georgia than 61% his last season before going pro.  Has 57% for his college career.  

 

But yeah different eras football didn’t involve passing before 2015

 

[JetFaninMI]

18 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

 

 

 

Ouch. Pictures are worth a thousand words.

[The Crusher]

2 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I find it telling that the Allen detractors base their criticism solely on his play, while the Rosen and Mayfield critics like to work in that they don't like them personally i.e. they are jerks.

 

1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said:

I also find it telling that those who defend Rosen or Mayfield do it with performance on the field, yet defenders of Allen talk about his physical traits...blame everything on his targets, excuse his inaccuracy away and will only use his senior bowl highlights...a game where he took a couple series and called it a day.

 

 

I see it too... now let’s all join hands and try and mind meld this towards one Big Macc!

[LAD_Brooklyn]

2 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I find it telling that the Allen detractors base their criticism solely on his stats, while the Rosen and Mayfield critics like to work in that they don't like them personally i.e. they are jerks.

Fix, as they honestly have admitted to not seeing him play but predict going by the stats alone tells them enough. 

[FidelioJet]

7 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

Great find

Josh Allen is the perfect example of how sports media can influence the opinions of folks. If the football media wasn't hyping this guy over the past 3 months NO ONE would be talking about Allen at #3 or even having him in the top 4 best quarterbacks. 

Allen has never dominated a football game. Matter of fact, if his college offense was based on being such a "vertical passing offense" and Mayfield was making a living off of screens, then why do the stats not support that? 

 

 

This is completely 100% untrue.  Allen was considered a top 3 prospect last year - long before the season started.  His name was always mentioned with Allen and Darnold.  I remember last year at this time we were talking about locking up a top 3 pick to get one of the Joshes or Darnold.   Mayfield was considered a late first round, early 2nd round prospect at the start of this process.  

Say what you want about Allen - but let's not make stuff up.

[Sonny Werblin]

Josh Allen Defending 101

1) He is really tall and athletic

2) He has an unusually strong arm

3) He can throw fairly accurately in a scripted setting in shorts

4) Emphasize that his college teammates sucked. Be sure to ignore the fact that his team played many other bad teams in their non-power 5 conference. And that on any given play it is virtually impossible for even the best defense to have every receiving option covered. Stay away from any conversations about timing patterns, which require a pass to be thrown before the receiver is open, and the concept of throwing a receiver open.

5) Note that before College football actually started using passing as a main component of offensive play, many great QBs had completion percentages of less than 55% in college (use Joe Montana as an example even though he was not rated as a first round QB).

6) Accuse both Mayfield and Rosen of being bad guys in addition to being short and having suffered a concussion because if we can't raise our guy up, we had better knock the other guys down.

7) Avoid watching game film of Allen at all costs because it will only serve as evidence that he lacks the innate abilities to play QB in that he lacks any powers of anticipation and intuition. This may very well be linked to his inability to read a Defense --- because if he could he would have been able to make a pre-snap ID of the open receiver.

8) Claim that ALL of Allen's problems can be cured by fixing his footwork, and that Jordan Palmer has that job about 80% complete. 

[Sonny Werblin]

11 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

This is completely 100% untrue.  Allen was considered a top 3 prospect last year - long before the season started.  His name was always mentioned with Allen and Darnold.  I remember last year at this time we were talking about locking up a top 3 pick to get one of the Joshes or Darnold.   Mayfield was considered a late first round, early 2nd round prospect at the start of this process.  

Say what you want about Allen - but let's not make stuff up.

And Hack was a top prospect until his on field play in college made him not one.

[FidelioJet]

15 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

And Hack was a top prospect until his on field play in college made him not one.

Hack once being a top prospect is actually a prime example of why Allen is different.  The fact that Allen is still a top prospect while Hack wasn't says a lot about his potential.

Not all tall QB's are the same - just because the Jets over drafted Hack doesn't make him a similar QB to Allen.  No matter how hard you all try to make it so.