DT fatigue and Leonard Williams are not good reasons to avoid taking Quinnen Williams OR Ed Oliver

[Larz]

Jets fans "oh my God we need oline so bad we need to score to win, gotta find a way to block the dline" 

Also jets fans "meh dline doesn't matter" 

[RutgersJetFan]

2 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

Leo is good evidence of SPARQ’s failings. Because even tho it calls Leo a bad athlete it doesn’t account for the fact that Leo is freakishly strong regardless of weight. And that freakish strength makes up for some of his deficiencies.

dont forget his value as a leader of men and that hes just a football player, plus hes good in a phone booth. you cant measure that kinda stuff with numbers ya know

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

12 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

And thats another good answer.

You live off of those numbers.  Good for you for needing what you think youre reading

Tell us what they mean, you know what you apparently know in all your years scouting and drafting players.  You want to argue that negligible differences in the numbers proves anything, fine.

Another condescending person playing the game

 

It was as good an explanation as you’re likely to get as to why nobody is about to bother trying to explain anything to you.

[Creepy Lurker]

8 minutes ago, Larz said:

Jets fans "oh my God we need oline so bad we need to score to win, gotta find a way to block the dline" 

Also jets fans "meh dline doesn't matter" 

I think pass rush (specifically edge rusher) is being referred to here and not interior d-line. Pass rush and pass protection are both extremely important and both areas  are coincidentally where our biggest holes are. Having Sam complicated things a little since he is a priority and we live or die by him.

Reaching too much in the draft with a top 5 pick for o-line for the sake of o-line isn’t smart though which is why I would like a trade down. We will see soon enough.

[GREENBEAN]

I don;t care about the Leo williams comparison I care about picking the same non premium position year after year after year.
How many Aaron Donalds are there right now?  1  So Quinnen HAS to be aaron donald to be a successful pick.
It is far easier to find a competent to good DT in a draft especially this one than other positions.
We still have no outside pass rush
No #1 Wr
Poor oline
No legit #2 CB
Opportunity cost.

This is how I see it. Traditionally some of my favorite players are D linemen. I was a d lineman myself. I love good pressure up the middle. Love it!!!

That said, can we just settle on the idea that if we protect this kid we have at QB with body guards and outlets, we are going to be a contender every single year? We can work on the D in later rounds. It is absolutely and unequivocally time to give the offense our premium capital. No matter how good some guys may be in the defensive dude of the ball.

Jonah Williams will
Anchor our LT position for the next 10 years and protect darnold a blindside. Then we go C with the 2nd we acquire in the trade back and take McCoy or Jenkins. Go with a WR or TE with the early 3rd. Then and only then do you turn it over to the D.

Love Q Williams. Don’t want him. Not now


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[ZachEY]

25 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

It’s definitely flawed. It heavily overvalues weight, height and length.

Leo is good evidence of SPARQ’s failings. Because even tho it calls Leo a bad athlete it doesn’t account for the fact that Leo is freakishly strong regardless of weight. And that freakish strength makes up for some of his deficiencies.

FWIW I think Leo is a really good player but he lacks the quickness to be great or elite.

Does it call Leo a bad athlete?  Or does it call him average to slightly below average by NFL standards?

[Larz]

Just now, Creepy Lurker said:

I think pass rush (specifically edge rusher) is being referred to here and not interior d-line. Pass rush and pass protection are both extremely important and both areas  are coincidentally where our biggest holes are. Having Sam complicated things a little since he is a priority and we live or die by him.

Reaching too much in the draft with a top 5 pick for o-line for the sake of o-line isn’t smart though which is why I would like a trade down. We will see soon enough.

I get it that jets fans are starved for offense but it's embarrassing sometimes when jets fans say they don't want to draft dline or a corner in the first round because oline and WR are more important lol

Williams is being compared to Donald, that's good enough for me 

I'll be totally fine with bosa or Allen but I think if the jets stay at 3 it will be for Williams or bosa 

Whoever they take is obviously the guy Greg Williams wants but hey message board guys have a new talking point, "premium position "? ? ? 

The cheaters value inside pressure but jets fans know better ?

 

 

[kdels62]

5 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Does it call Leo a bad athlete?  Or does it call him average to slightly below average by NFL standards?

A relatively bad athlete... 

[choon328]

Developing Darnold is the most important thing this franchise has had to do in a very long time. You can't do that by spending premium picks on defense. Spend those picks either protecting him or surrounding him with better skill position players. If you're not doing one of those things then you're doing this organization, Darnold and this fanbase a disservice. End of story

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

The most amazing part of this "metric" driven exercise in futility and hair splitting, is the fact that all of you "experts" so easily dismiss the fact of whether or not "player A" can actually play the game of football.

  When it is pointed out that the player can indeed play to a high level, and statistics, actual game statistics citing tackles, sacks and meaningful plays are put forth to support the argument it goes to plan B.  That poster is then berated with generalizations about player A's length of service and his quality of  competition.

Finally comes the usual name calling, using such time tested tripe as "homer", "newbie", and the full proof, " I didn't like your tone".

All this done in the name of posters who think they're smarter than everyone else and have discovered some magical formula to justify taking a player 10 slots above their projected drafting position, while denigrating others who have earned their projected slot based on game stats and tape.  But we're the stupid ones.  Right.

[Jet Nut]

26 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

It was as good an explanation as you’re likely to get as to why nobody is about to bother trying to explain anything to you.

One more time, no one can.

The numbers are negligible and you want to tell us it flies in the face of the scouting reports that talk athleticism, speed etc as strengths.  Not to a few sarcastic posters who cant seem to come up with something specific beyond telling us we dont understand.  Move on

[ZachEY]

5 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

A relatively bad athlete... 

I have no objection to calling him average to below average, athletically, in a small group of the worlds most elite athletes.

[Beerfish]

32 minutes ago, Larz said:

Jets fans "oh my God we need oline so bad we need to score to win, gotta find a way to block the dline" 

Also jets fans "meh dline doesn't matter" 

Dline is important.

olb pass rushers are important.

Oline is important

#1 Wr is important

CB is important

We draft dline for a decade straight.  That is the issue.

[ZachEY]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

One more time, no one can.

The numbers are negligible and you want to tell us it flies in the face of the scouting reports that talk athleticism, speed etc as strengths.  Not to a few sarcastic posters who cant seem to come up with something specific beyond telling us we dont understand.  Move on

Thinking the numbers are negligible is exactly why you don’t understand them.  Just because something doesn’t sound like a lot, doesn’t mean it’s not a lot.

[Jet Nut]

5 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Thinking the numbers are negligible is exactly why you don’t understand them.  Just because something doesn’t sound like a lot, doesn’t mean it’s not a lot.

I assume the vast difference in their numbers make it easy to prove the difference in each others athleticism and can be quantified.  It helps to prove that why each players scouting reports talks about each being athletic.  How does that happen?

I'm done, we dont agree.  Thats had people call me condescending for asking how they drew the conclusion that LW isnt athletic, I'm acting like a homer, never said he was good, asking about athleticism and apparently thats confusing to some, that I just dont understand numbers.  Whatever.

This place is tiring at times.  You argue with others the significance of minute numbers takes years apart by different people.  Enjoy

[Creepy Lurker]

1 hour ago, Larz said:

I get it that jets fans are starved for offense but it's embarrassing sometimes when jets fans say they don't want to draft dline or a corner in the first round because oline and WR are more important lol

Williams is being compared to Donald, that's good enough for me 

I'll be totally fine with bosa or Allen but I think if the jets stay at 3 it will be for Williams or bosa 

Whoever they take is obviously the guy Greg Williams wants but hey message board guys have a new talking point, "premium position "? ? ? 

The cheaters value inside pressure but jets fans know better ?

 

 

I get what you are saying and it all depends on the prospect. On top of it, all message board people have to go by is what they’ve seen from the prospects, where they are ranked by “experts” and what their measurable are from the combine. Actual in depth scouting and scheme fit is a whole mother level and area that we aren’t privy to or have the expertise in. 

I do disagree with your discounting of “premium” positions because that is a very important factor. As you know, I’m one of the biggest believers in positional weighting/premium positions. It’s not the only determining factor but having a quality player at a premium/impact position, can have a bigger impact on a team than a great player at a non-premium position.

Positional weighting is very real and why “premiums” are placed on certain positions like QB. As you’ve said yourself, you dont buy the QB hype. I agree it’s a weak QB class but teams will always reach for QB because it’s the absolute most important position on a team and in a class of its own. You could argue that edge rusher and LT are the next tier followed by rest of OL, WR and CB right below it etc. 

Sure there are all pro’s and stars at non-premium positions but it takes a rare find/generational talent to make up for the lack of impact that is typical of said position. 

Aaron Donald is a great example of an interior Defensive lineman that makes a HUGE impact. It’s just so rare and almost a luxury to swing for the fences hoping you find this rare HOF level talent at what’s typically a non impact position.

I don’t think a team that has missed on many picks and still has many glaring holes at premium positions, is in a position to take these chances until more of the glaring/important needs are filled.

 

 

[UnitedWhofans]

After looking at his pro day and particulars, Ed Oliver seems a more likely pick than Q. Williams. It seems that Oliver is more the DT that Gregg WIlliams likes. Still would be careful

[ZachEY]

4 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

OK, youre right, theyre not.  Which I assume is proven out by each players scouting reports talks about each being athletic.  

I'm done, we dont agree.  Thats had people call me condescending, a homer, dont understand whatever.

This place is tiring at times.  You argue with others the significance of minute numbers takes years apart by different people.  Enjoy

You do realize that analytics are being introduced into every single field and crushing ‘expert opinion’ on predictive metrics repeatedly and across the board?  Burying your head in the sand does not change that.

[RoadFan]

2 hours ago, JiF said:

Mangold

Yeah, I covered him.  It's the other 11 or 12 Buckeyes the Jets have drafted since 1961 that have been useless.

[UnitedWhofans]

Although I do think they draft Josh Allen at the end of the day.

Among reasons: The NFL listed his comp as Anthony Barr. Who did the Jets almost get?

Anthony Barr

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

Ok, if these differences are insignificant, again, why is QW so much higher than LW in SPARQ?

Or, is SPARQ just completely flawed?

It’s a formula.  Idk.  But do you really think such a small difference plays out on the field?  I agree all that stuff is important but not down to that minor of a differential.  So many other factors to why a player is successful. 

I certainly don’t think SPARQ is the end all be all.  Plenty of dudes who score well on SPARQ still can’t play.  

[kdels62]

30 minutes ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

The most amazing part of this "metric" driven exercise in futility and hair splitting, is the fact that all of you "experts" so easily dismiss the fact of whether or not "player A" can actually play the game of football.

  When it is pointed out that the player can indeed play to a high level, and statistics, actual game statistics citing tackles, sacks and meaningful plays are put forth to support the argument it goes to plan B.  That poster is then berated with generalizations about player A's length of service and his quality of  competition.

Finally comes the usual name calling, using such time tested tripe as "homer", "newbie", and the full proof, " I didn't like your tone".

All this done in the name of posters who think they're smarter than everyone else and have discovered some magical formula to justify taking a player 10 slots above their projected drafting position, while denigrating others who have earned their projected slot based on game stats and tape.  But we're the stupid ones.  Right.

I get it, you wanna take Jaylon Ferguson in the first round.

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

.1 - no it’s not 

 

.1 isn't significant?  Seriously?  First of all, it's not .1, it's .14.  Second, that is the difference between a possession receiver and burners.   He was also 1/2 a foot short in the broad jump.  

[#27TheDominator]

13 minutes ago, JiF said:

It’s a formula.  Idk.  But do you really think such a small difference plays out on the field?  I agree all that stuff is important but not down to that minor of a differential.  So many other factors to why a player is successful. 

I certainly don’t think SPARQ is the end all be all.  Plenty of dudes who score well on SPARQ still can’t play.  

SPARQ isnt football. It is athleticism. You have to relate it to the game. That is what Waldo did.  .14 is not a minor differential though  

[#27TheDominator]

39 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

One more time, no one can.

The numbers are negligible and you want to tell us it flies in the face of the scouting reports that talk athleticism, speed etc as strengths.  Not to a few sarcastic posters who cant seem to come up with something specific beyond telling us we dont understand.  Move on

Scout Leonard Williams as a Jet.  Objectively. Are his athleticism and speed strengths?

[JustInFudge]

5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

.1 isn't significant?  Seriously?  First of all, it's not .1, it's .14.  Second, that is the difference between a possession receiver and burners.   He was also 1/2 a foot short in the broad jump.  

We are talking about DT’s.

[JustInFudge]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

SPARQ isnt football. It is athleticism. You have to relate it to the game. That is what Waldo did.  .14 is not a minor differential though  

Oh ok 

[#27TheDominator]

54 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Does it call Leo a bad athlete?  Or does it call him average to slightly below average by NFL standards?

 

48 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

A relatively bad athlete... 

 

42 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

I have no objection to calling him average to below average, athletically, in a small group of the worlds most elite athletes.

40th percentile NFL defensive lineman

[Jet Nut]

30 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

You do realize that analytics are being introduced into every single field and crushing ‘expert opinion’ on predictive metrics repeatedly and across the board?  Burying your head in the sand does not change that.

And you realize I know this?  Keep asking if the numbers arent close why are both players scouted as athletic.  Both.  If the numbers say differently then why doesnt the scouting reports agree.  Its a simple and reasonable question that no one wants to go near

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, JiF said:

We are talking about DT’s.

Okay.  .15 i the difference between Leonard Williams and Deon Simon.

[greenwave81]

52 minutes ago, Larz said:I get it that jets fans are starved for offense but it's embarrassing sometimes when jets fans say they don't want to draft dline or a corner in the first round because oline and WR are more important lol

Williams is being compared to Donald, that's good enough for me 

I'll be totally fine with bosa or Allen but I think if the jets stay at 3 it will be for Williams or bosa 

Whoever they take is obviously the guy Greg Williams wants but hey message board guys have a new talking point, "premium position "? ? ? 

The cheaters value inside pressure but jets fans know better ?

 

 

First, IMO, DL is more important than CB because even great CB's cannot cover forever without a pass rush.

I know I don't want Q in particular, but that's more based on positional value than not liking the player...but one caveat for me would exist to drafting  Q...and that is, if the NYJ have a trade lined up for at least a 3rd rder for Leo.  Because, honestly, if the Jets really want Q it's because they believe Leo ain't worth another contract and he will need to be replaced anyway.

Still would rather trade back for another mid-1st, 2nd and more draft capital this year or next and draft OL/WR or hell, OL(LT)/ OC...but that's just me.

[Jet Nut]

4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Scout Leonard Williams as a Jet.  Objectively. Are his athleticism and speed strengths?

For a 300+ pound DL, yes.

Does this have anything to do with scouting reports out of college?  And how does it answer why two players, similar numbers are said to not be similar number wise, yet have the same scouting reports over their athleticism.

I havent said a word about abilities, who will be better as a NFL player.  I asked how the numbers, if vastly different arent reflected in the scouting reports.  Why this got a few people twisted is numbing

[JustInFudge]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Okay.  .15 i the difference between Leonard Williams and Deon Simon.

And?

[Jet Nut]

7 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Okay.  .15 i the difference between Leonard Williams and Deon Simon.

When is it important for a lineman to run 40 yards?  

Is the speed difference in the first steps of the 40 time or the close?
 

If LW gets off quicker, but gets beat out in the last 10 yards do we care?  I dont.  Doesnt compare first steps, start speed, the important stuff

Always remember Dick Butkus saying if he had to run 40 yards he totally screwed up the play.

[RobR]

2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

For a 300+ pound DL, yes.

Does this have anything to do with scouting reports out of college?  And how does it answer why two players, similar numbers are said to not be similar number wise, yet have the same scouting reports over their athleticism.

I havent said a word about abilities, who will be better as a NFL player.  I asked how the numbers, if vastly different arent reflected in the scouting reports.  Why this got a few people twisted is numbing

Stop taking scouting reports as gospel because just about every single one of them is flawed and regurgitated throughout the websites. 

With advanced testing you get concrete numbers, not opinions. Also if you watch Leonard Williams and think he is athletic I'm not sure what you are watching. He is slow as molasses off the snap, doesn't have any moves and has been skirting by because he is a naturally strong person. I call it country boy strength.