DT fatigue and Leonard Williams are not good reasons to avoid taking Quinnen Williams OR Ed Oliver

[RobR]

1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

If LW gets off quicker, but gets beat out in the last 10 yards do we care?  I dont.  Doesnt compare first steps, start speed, the important stuff

Ironically these are all of the things Leonard Williams lacks.

[Larz]

1 minute ago, greenwave81 said:

First, IMO, DL is more important than CB because even great CB's cannot cover forever without a pass rush.

I know I don't want Q in particular, but that's more based on positional value than not liking the player...but one caveat for me would exist to drafting  Q...and that is, if the NYJ have a trade lined up for at least a 3rd rder for Leo.  Because, honestly, if the Jets really want Q it's because they believe Leo ain't worth another contract and he will need to be replaced anyway.

Still would rather trade back for another mid-1st, 2nd and more draft capital this year or next and draft OL/WR or hell, OL(LT)/ OC...but that's just me.

I would love to trade back and get oline help too. I don't think it will happen tho 

The point I was making is that this fan base is so obsessed with offense they say cringy things that make me lol

It's the oline vs dline and corner vs WR irony 

I would be perfectly fine with Williams bosa or Allen. 

I don't see Williams as a replacement for Leo but it wouldn't hurt to have Quinnen if they don't extend Leo 

Colleges just are not sending oline to the draft like they used to. It's not that maccagnan doesn't value it 

Osemele was a huge get and this fan base talked about it for 5 minutes because he's not a center lol 

The real irony is Mr "I come out of the game on 3rd down" snacks Harrison is a god around here and he's exactly the type of DT I would never draft in the first round forget about top 3

I mean did anyone watch the superbowl? 

Inside pass rush and press coverage by the corners shut down the darling offense of the NFL 

Earth to jets fans lol

[T0mShane]

Darnold is the only player on the roster that counts. If he doesn’t get better, the whole franchise collapses again. Do things to help Darnold. Nothing else matters.

[Jet Nut]

6 minutes ago, RobR said:

Stop taking scouting reports as gospel because just about every single one of them is flawed and regurgitated throughout the websites. 

With advanced testing you get concrete numbers, not opinions. Also if you watch Leonard Williams and think he is athletic I'm not sure what you are watching. He is slow as molasses off the snap, doesn't have any moves and has been skirting by because he is a naturally strong person. I call it country boy strength.

And one more time, slowly, if the numbers, the one youre telling me to rely solely on (LOL) then why are they ranked similarly?

Slow as molasses or whatever youre selling isnt even the end all indicator of athleticism.  And neither is moves.  

[RobR]

36 minutes ago, JiF said:

I certainly don’t think SPARQ is the end all be all.  Plenty of dudes who score well on SPARQ still can’t play.

100% Correct. Sparq is just another tool in the shed but it is an important one.

Lets for instance say we see a guy who was very good in college yet tests poorly when it comes to athleticism. That should raise a huge red flag because they are going to be facing stiffer competition at the next level. What if they dominate at the college level and test great athletically? Those are the players you should target because their athleticism translates to the next level.

Now take a guy who tests great but his college film was meh. That player is more likely an athlete and not a football player. These tests also don't account for instincts and desire......so like I said just another tool.

But when you see that guy dominate in college and then test off the charts you almost assuredly have a winner. IE Oliver.

[RobR]

5 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Slow as molasses or whatever youre selling isnt even the end all indicator of athleticism.  And neither is moves.  

I figured you would say that when you come into this thread only to defend a Jet player that hasn't lived up to his expectations.

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

I should have taken my own earlier advice and just not responded too you.

[T0mShane]

16 minutes ago, Larz said:

I mean did anyone watch the superbowl? 

Yeah, that’s totally how the Patriots win all their rings. Defensive tackle play. 

[choon328]

18 minutes ago, Larz said:

I would love to trade back and get oline help too. I don't think it will happen tho 

The point I was making is that this fan base is so obsessed with offense they say cringy things that make me lol

It's the oline vs dline and corner vs WR irony 

I would be perfectly fine with Williams bosa or Allen. 

I don't see Williams as a replacement for Leo but it wouldn't hurt to have Quinnen if they don't extend Leo 

Colleges just are not sending oline to the draft like they used to. It's not that maccagnan doesn't value it 

Osemele was a huge get and this fan base talked about it for 5 minutes because he's not a center lol 

The real irony is Mr "I come out of the game on 3rd down" snacks Harrison is a god around here and he's exactly the type of DT I would never draft in the first round forget about top 3

I mean did anyone watch the superbowl? 

Inside pass rush and press coverage by the corners shut down the darling offense of the NFL 

Earth to jets fans lol

What happened in the AFC Championship game 2 weeks earlier? And pretty much the entire season. Earth to you.

[ZachEY]

57 minutes ago, JiF said:

It’s a formula.  Idk.  But do you really think such a small difference plays out on the field?  I agree all that stuff is important but not down to that minor of a differential.  So many other factors to why a player is successful. 

I certainly don’t think SPARQ is the end all be all.  Plenty of dudes who score well on SPARQ still can’t play.  

That’s correct.  But no one is claiming that high SPARQ means good football player.  High SPARQ means athletic.

And one measurable may not play out on the field, but QW is better across all of those listed.  He’s more athletic.  Will he be a better football player?  Unclear.  But what we can learn from SPARQ is that he has more upside.

[CTM]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

And what we have here are two DLs, each having been called athletic by scouts whos numbers are pretty much identical.  Which is why I asked how he came to his conclusions.  

QW was said to have blown up the combine, blew away the other DL and really helped his case and then we see LW put up the same numbers, some better, when he was headed to the draft.

 

QW is faster (his 10 yd split is faster too), jumps further and higher.  The numbers below are not at all identical if you think about the range of these numbers for draftable prospects.

Yes they are similiar #'s  if you are comparing them to disgusting fat bodies like @Pac . @T0mShaneand @The Crusher but there's a reason why QW based on Sparq is a full 1 SD above the mean whereas LW was -.3 SD below and it's because all of these guys are very athletic.

 

3 hours ago, choon328 said:

They are actually very similar coming out of college:

Quinnen

6'3" 303 lbs

Arms: 33 1/4

Hands: 9 5/8

40: 4.83

Vertical: 30.5

Broad Jump: 112

Leo

6'5" 302 lbs

Arms: 34 5/8

Hands: 10 5/8

40: 4.97

Vertical: 29.5

Broad Jump: 106

 

These two are as similar as can be athletically. Most scouts thought Leo was the best player in the draft that year as well.

 

[ZachEY]

45 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Scout Leonard Williams as a Jet.  Objectively. Are his athleticism and speed strengths?

Leonard Williams Jets Scouting Report:  It’s all Bowles/Rogers fault.

[Team archer]

20 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Darnold is the only player on the roster that counts. If he doesn’t get better, the whole franchise collapses again. Do things to help Darnold. Nothing else matters.

I dont know whats so hard about this. If you cant move down get a great player except a ******* DT. All other efforts are for WR, OTs, TE, whatever. Anyone who can help the damn offensive player, draft him.

[ZachEY]

42 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

And you realize I know this?  Keep asking if the numbers arent close why are both players scouted as athletic.  Both.  If the numbers say differently then why doesnt the scouting reports agree.  Its a simple and reasonable question that no one wants to go near

Because people are dumb and use words?

Gholston was also called athletic.  He wasn’t.

[T0mShane]

3 minutes ago, CTM said:

QW is faster (his 10 yd split is faster too), jumps further and higher.  The numbers below are not at all identical if you think about the range of these numbers for draftable prospects.

Yes they are similiar #'s  if you are comparing them to disgusting fat bodies like @Pac . @T0mShaneand @The Crusher but there's a reason why QW based on Sparq is a full 1 SD above the mean whereas LW was -.3 SD below and it's because all of these guys are very athletic.

 

 

I am a lean 217 lbs at 6’2”, you ****

[CTM]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

It’s a formula.  Idk.  But do you really think such a small difference plays out on the field?  I agree all that stuff is important but not down to that minor of a differential.  So many other factors to why a player is successful. 

I certainly don’t think SPARQ is the end all be all.  Plenty of dudes who score well on SPARQ still can’t play.  

well yes yucko thats why these things are typically filtered by scouts grade. The question they are answering isn't lets take everyone we find, make them jump and run and they we predict their NFL success level based solely on thier scores.

The question they are supposed to answer is lets take all the guys the that scouts grade as really good and use these data points to further refine within this curated subset. 

Which is exactly how Qbase works but I know you don't like it.

[ZachEY]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I am a lean 217 lbs at 6’2”, you ****

Your skills in the fundamentals more than makes up for your lack of ability to dunk.

[CTM]

7 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Because people are dumb and use words?

Gholston was also called athletic.  He wasn’t.

actually sparq missed bad on him I think, interestingly tho the Waldo formula ferreted him out as a high bust risk

 

[T0mShane]

6 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

Your skills in the fundamentals more than makes up for your lack of ability to dunk.

Actually, my fundamentals are trash. I sneak by on pure athleticism 

[CTM]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

And you realize I know this?  Keep asking if the numbers arent close why are both players scouted as athletic.  Both.  If the numbers say differently then why doesnt the scouting reports agree.  Its a simple and reasonable question that no one wants to go near

Well one would be qualitative research whereas the other quantitative. A scout can't likely observe a huge difference in athleticism between QW and LW on the field against differing levels of college talent, but the hard numbers can better project success against the superior athletes regularly found in the NFL. And these formulas will only continue to improve and be refined..  ignore them at you own peril (i'm looking at you Mac)

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, Paradis said:

Appreciate all the hard work you  put into this thread, buddy… But no. Hell no.

It’s not even about whether he’s good anymore. But what moves the needle.

Defensive tackles like Suh (which is already more praise than he deserves) end up in the free agency market all the time. There’s nothing to suggest Williams won’t be just another one of those. He’s not generational talent that transcends the position 

Suh isn't in Donald's stratosphere.

[dbatesman]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

And one more time, slowly, if the numbers, the one youre telling me to rely solely on (LOL) then why are they ranked similarly?

Slow as molasses or whatever youre selling isnt even the end all indicator of athleticism.  And neither is moves.  

maybe the rankings are wrong 

[CTM]

16 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

maybe the rankings are wrong 

well if that was true why are there never busts?

[Paradis]

36 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Suh isn't in Donald's stratosphere.

Agreed? 

Williams may have a Suh ceiling (which is why i used his name)... I check out when people start using Donald's name. That's when i stop listening. No one should be comparing any college prospect to a generational talent. 

[Skeptable]

6 hours ago, choon328 said:

We forced Leo to play out of position in a 3-4 and he has under produced. Why do the same with Quinnen Williams?

Bad coaching by Bowles doesn't mean Williams will make the same dumb mistakes.

[choon328]

1 minute ago, Skeptable said:

Bad coaching by Bowles doesn't mean Williams will make the same dumb mistakes.

The only mistake the Jets made was taking him at 6

[Skeptable]

2 minutes ago, choon328 said:

The only mistake the Jets made was taking him at 6

The mistake was allowing Bowles to coach this franchise for 4 years.

[#27TheDominator]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

For a 300+ pound DL, yes.

Does this have anything to do with scouting reports out of college?  And how does it answer why two players, similar numbers are said to not be similar number wise, yet have the same scouting reports over their athleticism.

I havent said a word about abilities, who will be better as a NFL player.  I asked how the numbers, if vastly different arent reflected in the scouting reports.  Why this got a few people twisted is numbing

Because they are both NFL talents competing against inferior athletes

[choon328]

33 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

The mistake was allowing Bowles to coach this franchise for 4 years.

I agree. 

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

3 hours ago, kdels62 said:

I get it, you wanna take Jaylon Ferguson in the first round.

No, I guess you don't get it.  He would be a better fit on the Raiders or Browns.  Simple Battery and Public Intoxication more fits their player profile, than the Jets.  Thanks for playing.

[#27TheDominator]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

When is it important for a lineman to run 40 yards?  

Is the speed difference in the first steps of the 40 time or the close?
 

If LW gets off quicker, but gets beat out in the last 10 yards do we care?  I dont.  Doesnt compare first steps, start speed, the important stuff

Always remember Dick Butkus saying if he had to run 40 yards he totally screwed up the play.

Use the 10 yard split.  They correlate.

[#27TheDominator]

3 hours ago, RobR said:

Ironically these are all of the things Leonard Williams lacks.

The scouting reports said so

[Wonderboy]

8 hours ago, TeddEY said:

I still wouldn't take Williams there.  Williams is in the 83.1 percentile, Donald was 97.2.  So, I'm not sure "there's a good change QW can enter a conversation like that."  The difference is significant, almost a full SD.

But, this should be a reminder to everyone who's just waiting for Leonard Williams potential to be unlocked with better coaching.  He's a below-average NFL athlete, as you state.  The ceiling simply isn't that high.

Let’s keep it simple shall we. We have greater needs than DT. We already used a top pick on DT in Williams, we don’t need to spend another one right now. I can see going edge but sticking to BPA philosophy and selecting a DT because of it is plain effin moronic at this point. You build up your weaknesses around your strengths and that ultimately gives them the opportunity to excel and you a more balanced team. We have a franchise QB, just signed the best RB in football and have one of the most putrid OL in the NFL. It’s just azz backwards. Ideally, trading back is the smart move. Get 2-3 extra picks and invest in the OL.  This OL is JAG central. And Osemee, while a nice get, is still a question mark. OL, OL, OL. 

[Wonderboy]

3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Darnold is the only player on the roster that counts. If he doesn’t get better, the whole franchise collapses again. Do things to help Darnold. Nothing else matters.

No Jamal is the only player that matters. We need to draft another safety. You can’t have enough safeties. Maye is always injured. Jamal needs more puppies ? ? ? 

[RutgersJetFan]

3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Darnold is the only player on the roster that counts. If he doesn’t get better, the whole franchise collapses again. Do things to help Darnold. Nothing else matters.

Nah bitch, SPARQ.

[Wonderboy]

47 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Nah bitch, SPARQ.

Joisey sucks eh eh eh eh