Anyone Else Not Care about the Corners?

[nico002]

48 minutes ago, slats said:

CB ranks fourth amongst positions at franchise tag value behind QB, DE, and WR. Coincidence? I think not. It’s a critical position on every and any NFL team. 

Side note: DE and DT listed separately each have higher value tags than the generic OL tag. 

Name 10 corners worth the Franchise tag. 

[Bugg]

If Williams can get the Williamses to generate a pass rush, JAG/replacement level corners won't be a big deal. The best of corners get beat if you give QBs time. DBs are overhead. Your defense is talent up front, scheme in the back. 

[Bugg]

6 hours ago, slats said:

CB was the biggest hole on the team before Tru injured his hamstring. I was concerned about the position during the last draft when Mac spent his usual 6th round pick on his usual project. I'm not crazy about trading future draft capitol for CB help this year, but if they could trade a player who likely isn't going to be here next year for one, sure, I'm down with that. 

If you give up a player that isn't part of the plan, fine. Otherwise roll the dice. 

[JohnnyLV]

30 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Unfortunately, the time to do that is in March and April, not August.    

The time to try to win a Super Bowl is 2020 and beyond.  Its not in the cards for 2019.  Bringing in some band-aid Corners just so we can go 9-7 is no-man's land.

I think we can win the division with the roster we have. I think Williams will be able disguise our CB weakness just enough to allow us to be effective at rushing up the middle,band the offense will be Too 10 in the league.

[TNJet]

Corners are important. Like back in 2014, once teams know the can hit you deep at anytime then thats what they start doing to beat you.

[slats]

1 hour ago, nico002 said:

Name 10 corners worth the Franchise tag. 

I’d have trouble listing ten QBs worth it, but that’s the NFL market whether you like it or not. CBs are worth real money in this league. It’s a valuable position. 

[southtown24th]

wtf

[carlito1171]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Unfortunately, the time to do that is in March and April, not August.    

The time to try to win a Super Bowl is 2020 and beyond.  Its not in the cards for 2019.  Bringing in some band-aid Corners just so we can go 9-7 is no-man's land.

Well see that’s the thing.....

I’m not advocating we start throwing 1st rd picks at pro Bowl level corners....

But you have to do better then throw some UDFAs out there if Tru misses significant time or reinjures himself

and sorry 9-7 isn’t no mans land when you have a 22 year old QB and significant cap space. You learn how to win in this league by actually winning....not “playing for next season” year after year.  This is the year to make a small move to eek out a extra couple of wins. Being stuck in the 5-6 win revolving door when you finally have a QB is a sure fire way to blow the situation you have....

[nico002]

23 minutes ago, slats said:

I’d have trouble listing ten QBs worth it, but that’s the NFL market whether you like it or not. CBs are worth real money in this league. It’s a valuable position. 

Not debating that. I’m saying that there are more bad corners than good ones in the nfl. I don’t think any team (other than maybe NE) can say corner is a strength. At best it’s not a huge liability for a handful of teams. 

[Jetsfan80]

24 minutes ago, carlito1171 said:

and sorry 9-7 isn’t no mans land when you have a 22 year old QB and significant cap space. You learn how to win in this league by actually winning....

That has been proven to be false time and again:

• Geno Smith went 8-8 his rookie year.  How did that help him in Year 2 when the team went 4-12? 
• Mark Sanchez went 9-7 and 11-5 his first 2 years.  How did that help him in Years 3 and 4? 
• Carson Wentz went 11-2 in Year 2, then 5-6 in his 3rd season.  
• Jameis Winston went 3-10 in Year 2, then 9-7 in Year 3.  

Meanwhile...

• Rookie Jared Goff went 4-12 his first year, then 11-5 his 2nd season.  Did he "learn to win" that rookie season?  
• Mitchell Trubisky went 4-8 his rookie year, then 11-3 in Year 2
• Carson Wentz went 7-9 his rookie year, then 11-2 in Year 2
• Cam Newton went 7-9 in Year 2, then 12-4 in Year 3

A team's W-L during one season has zero impact on a young QB's future.  Zero.  

[carlito1171]

13 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

That has been proven to be false time and again:

• Geno Smith went 8-8 his rookie year.  How did that help him in Year 2 when the team went 4-12? 
• Mark Sanchez went 9-7 and 11-5 his first 2 years.  How did that help him in Years 3 and 4? 
• Carson Wentz went 11-2 in Year 2, then 5-6 in his 3rd season.  
• Jameis Winston went 3-10 in Year 2, then 9-7 in Year 3.  

Meanwhile...

• Rookie Jared Goff went 4-12 his first year, then 11-5 his 2nd season.  Did he "learn to win" that rookie season?  
• Mitchell Trubisky went 4-8 his rookie year, then 11-3 in Year 2
• Carson Wentz went 7-9 his rookie year, then 11-2 in Year 2
• Cam Newton went 7-9 in Year 2, then 12-4 in Year 3

A team's W-L during one season has zero impact on a young QB's future.  Zero.  

If you want to make it simplistic by only talking numbers sure but there’s a difference in the process of a team who knows they’ll be on vacation early by October and a team with something to play for week 16 and 17.....My opinion is that it’s  benefical for anyone to have the latter experience let alone a young player still trying to find his way in the league

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, carlito1171 said:

If you want to make it simplistic by only talking numbers sure but there’s a difference in the process of a team who knows they’ll be on vacation early by October and a team with something to play for week 16 and 17.....My opinion is that it’s  benefical for anyone to have the latter experience let alone a young player still trying to find his way in the league 

Except nothing you're advocating will help or hinder Darnold's development.  Darnold won't learn more from a 9-7 season than a 7-9 season because we add a couple band-aid corners.

[RobR]

11 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

That has been proven to be false time and again:

• Geno Smith went 8-8 his rookie year.  How did that help him in Year 2 when the team went 4-12? 
• Mark Sanchez went 9-7 and 11-5 his first 2 years.  How did that help him in Years 3 and 4? 
• Carson Wentz went 11-2 in Year 2, then 5-6 in his 3rd season.  
• Jameis Winston went 3-10 in Year 2, then 9-7 in Year 3.  

Meanwhile...

• Rookie Jared Goff went 4-12 his first year, then 11-5 his 2nd season.  Did he "learn to win" that rookie season?  
• Mitchell Trubisky went 4-8 his rookie year, then 11-3 in Year 2
• Carson Wentz went 7-9 his rookie year, then 11-2 in Year 2
• Cam Newton went 7-9 in Year 2, then 12-4 in Year 3

A team's W-L during one season has zero impact on a young QB's future.  Zero.  

 Wish I could positive rep this post twice. Everyone wants to win meaningless games at the end of an already lost season because somehow they think that measly win will effect next years squad. It is utter BS and has been proven time and time again even down to the HS level.. 

There is so much turnover year after year in this league and that's not even counting coaching staffs.

[Philc1]

2 hours ago, nico002 said:

Name 10 corners worth the Franchise tag. 

Buster Skrine, Trumaine Johnson, Kyle Wilson, Dee Milliner,  Dmitri Patterson, Justin Houston, Dexter McDougle, Donnie Abraham, David Barrett and Fat Revis

[Philc1]

2 hours ago, Bugg said:

If Williams can get the Williamses to generate a pass rush, JAG/replacement level corners won't be a big deal. The best of corners get beat if you give QBs time. DBs are overhead. Your defense is talent up front, scheme in the back. 

Our only shot is QW generates pass rush immediately from the inside 

[Raideraholic]

14 hours ago, Bugg said:

If Williams can get the Williamses to generate a pass rush, JAG/replacement level corners won't be a big deal. The best of corners get beat if you give QBs time. DBs are overhead. Your defense is talent up front, scheme in the back. 

You haven't learned anything from the last time you tried to build all world defense line with just DT's  .    Last time you had a better set of DT's , and CB group .     It didn't work that time, and it isn't going to work now.( upgrading inside lb position doesn't  do anything in a passing league). 

The Jets have to figure out what kind of defense they want to be a 3-4 , or 4-3 defense.   Get the personnel that fit that defense.    If they are 3-4 defense- get olb's that can rush the passer .    If you want be a 4-3 defense- Get real pass rushing De's ( not DT's ) that can rush the Qb.

The Jets were close this off season of building a very very  good 3-4 defense .    They had the Defense line of H Anderson , S MClendon , and Leonard Williams .They thought they signed A Barr to play one outside position, and would have  have drafted Josh Allen to play the other.    Their inside lb Corp was top notch added Cj Mosely to go with A Williamson.

One change of heart by Olb A Barr totally threw their plans in the toilet, and changed history forever.

[#27TheDominator]

14 minutes ago, Raideraholic said:

You haven't learned anything from the last time you tried to build all world defense line with just DT's  .    Last time you had a better set of DT's , and CB group .     It didn't work that time, and it isn't going to work now.( upgrading inside lb position doesn't  do anything in a passing league). 

The Jets have to figure out what kind of defense they want to be a 3-4 , or 4-3 defense.   Get the personnel that fit that defense.    If they are 3-4 defense- get olb's that can rush the passer .    If you want be a 4-3 defense- Get real pass rushing De's ( not DT's ) that can rush the Qb.

The Jets were close this off season of building a very very  good 3-4 defense .    They had the Defense line of H Anderson , S MClendon , and Leonard Williams .They thought they signed A Barr to play one outside position, and would have  have drafted Josh Allen to play the other.    Their inside lb Corp was top notch added Cj Mosely to go with A Williamson.

One change of heart by Olb A Barr totally threw their plans in the toilet, and changed history forever.

Changed history forever?  How ******* dramatic.  Newsflash, Anthony Barr is not that good.  You think they were going to sign Barr and draft Allen?  That is a fairly stupid plan, no?  Why didn't they just draft Allen to replace Barr?

[Joe W. Namath]

Looks like the rams are the team to watch in regards to a corner:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/08/15/sean-mcvay-we-have-a-positive-problem-with-cornerback-depth/

[Joe W. Namath]

Looks like the rams are the team to watch in regards to a corner:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/08/15/sean-mcvay-we-have-a-positive-problem-with-cornerback-depth/

[Raideraholic]

39 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Changed history forever?  How ******* dramatic.  Newsflash, Anthony Barr is not that good.  You think they were going to sign Barr and draft Allen?  That is a fairly stupid plan, no?  Why didn't they just draft Allen to replace Barr?

That was exactly the plan, and that is the only thing that makes sense what Macc was doing.      You need two pass rushing olb's. ( Sorry J Jenkins isn't one- backup at best) . 

That's almost as stupid investing a third pick in a DT when you have big money in two others.( H Anderson, and Leonard Williams)     Now what you did is basically replace Leonard Williams for Q Williams.( not going to pay three DT's that much).   Unless you see one of those DT playing NT fulltime, or Olb .

 

[slats]

5 minutes ago, Raideraholic said:

That was exactly the plan, and that is the only thing that makes sense what Macc was doing.      You need two pass rushing olb's. ( Sorry J Jenkins isn't one- backup at best) . 

That's almost as stupid investing a third pick in a DT when you have big money in two others.( H Anderson, and Leonard Williams)     Now what you did is basically replace Leonard Williams for Q Williams.( not going to pay three DT's that much). 

 

Your theory is ridiculous. They didn't draft a pass rusher because a pass rusher didn't sign? That makes no sense. 

[#27TheDominator]

Just now, Raideraholic said:

That was exactly the plan, and that is the only thing that makes sense what Macc was doing.      You need two pass rushing olb's. ( Sorry J Jenkins isn't one- backup at best) . 

That's almost as stupid investing a third pick in a DT when you have big money in two others.( H Anderson, and Leonard Williams)     Now what you did is basically replace Leonard Williams for Q Williams.( not going to pay three DT's that much). 

 

Jenkins is fine.  Not great, but fine.  You don't respond to the simplest point of my post.  If Mac's plan was to draft Allen, WHY THE **** DIDN'T HE DRAFT ALLEN?  You describe Mac's plan like it was the transparent, logical course.  He was here for five offseasons and it was never that way.  Why was it going to suddenly change?

I am not a huge fan of the allocation of resources, but honestly I don't have a huge problem going DT.  I'd probably have gone for Oliver, but I would look to move Leonard Williams and roll with the others.  I would probably have pushed to trade him before paying Anderson.  If Quinnen hits the high side of his comps, then we will be happy. 

Serious question, do you think Gruden has a coherent plan? 

[Raideraholic]

21 minutes ago, slats said:

Your  ridiculous. They didn't draft a pass rusher because a pass rusher didn't sign? That makes no sense. 

It's more than just pass rushers. He was building the best 3-4 defense.  Both Barr, and J  

Allen not only can rush the passer, but both are excellent in coverage.  Why you think you overpaid  at inside lb.

Doubt me now , but  eventually Macc will explain his thought process. Confirm what I'm stating.

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, slats said:

Your theory is ridiculous. They didn't draft a pass rusher because a pass rusher didn't sign? That makes no sense. 

The stupidest part of it is that part of the appeal of Barr was his scheme flexibility.  If they got Barr they would probably be better able to slide from 4/3, to 3/4 and his speed would be solid in the nickel.  Barr is not really much of a pass rusher.  He has never had more than 4  sacks, but he offers a ton of scheme versatility.  

BTW, backup and "non-pass rusher" Jordan Jenkins has 12.5 sacks in 3 seasons.  Pass rusher Anthony Barr has 13.5 in 5.  

 

 

[#27TheDominator]

5 minutes ago, Raideraholic said:

It's more than just pass rushers. He was building the best 3-4 defense.  Both Barr, and J  

Allen not only can rush the passer, but both are excellent in coverage.  Why you think you overpaid  at inside lb.

Doubt me now , but  eventually Macc will explain his thought process. Confirm what I'm stating.

Why?  Is he also illogical? 

[Raideraholic]

53 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Jenkins is fine.  Not great, but fine.  You don't respond to the simplest point of my post.  If Mac's plan was to draft Allen, WHY THE **** DIDN'T HE DRAFT ALLEN?  You describe Mac's plan like it was the transparent, logical course.  He was here for five offseasons and it was never that way.  Why was it going to suddenly change?

I am not a huge fan of the allocation of resources, but honestly I don't have a huge problem going DT.  I'd probably have gone for Oliver, but I would look to move Leonard Williams and roll with the others.  I would probably have pushed to trade him before paying Anderson.  If Quinnen hits the high side of his comps, then we will be happy. 

Serious question, do you think Gruden has a coherent plan? 

Do you know what 3-4 outside lb's do.  Not only should they be the guys providing the pressure, but these guys have to be good in coverage too.    Both A Barr ,and  Josh Allen  both can do both those things well.     You don't have complete set , you still have a hole on defense.    Why the Jets panic and took the best player in the draft despite just giving big money to Henry Anderson.( they have hole now as they don't have the personnel to run either a 4-3 or 3-4 defense.( missing big pieces).

Jon Gruden has coherent plan on offense.  ( he totally rebuilt the offense in one year.   The weapons he put around Carr is like the difference of light and dark.  Watch Carr have his best season ever.   They went from having one of the slowest teams , to one of the fastest.  Paul Guenther  is building the defense ( Mike Zimmer disciple) to his specifications .(everything they added fits the defense they want.  Incredible young defense that has a lot of depth .  

All Gruden cares about is the offense, as Paul Guenther -Dc has full say on the defense.    Mike Mayock put up every player on every team in their division on a board .   Everything they did this offseason was to beat the teams in their division.      To do anything , you first have to win your division.

[Adoni Beast]

In today’s NFL, I don’t care how talented a teams corners are, it’s all about pressure whether up the middle or on the edges. If you’re not getting that pressure consistently, then you’re done.

Adams & Maye can be utilized like Earl Thomas and Chancellor in Seattle, if the line is getting the push. 

90% of NFL passes are 10 yards or less, with most of those being in the middle of the field. If our Dline can pressure, our SS cover the middle of the field, our FS being a safety net to our CB’s...then our deficient corners don’t need to play press. They can play off a bit, making sure the big hits down the sideline aren’t there.

Pressure up the middle, while much more rare & difficult, is much more valuable than edge rush....shortest distance to the QB. With our Dline (& new coaches) we should be able to get decent pressure, at least to the point where our secondary is getting scorched every game.

But we absolutely will struggle against teams that will spread us out, throw quick routes, and iso their slot WR’s, TE’s, and backs with our slow MLB’s. 

 

[Raideraholic]

14 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

The stupidest part of it is that part of the appeal of Barr was his scheme flexibility.  If they got Barr they would probably be better able to slide from 4/3, to 3/4 and his speed would be solid in the nickel.  Barr is not really much of a pass rusher.  He has never had more than 4  sacks, but he offers a ton of scheme versatility.  

BTW, backup and "non-pass rusher" Jordan Jenkins has 12.5 sacks in 3 seasons.  Pass rusher Anthony Barr has 13.5 in 5.  

 

 

The Vikings used Barr more in coverage than rushing the passer.( Also they were a 4-3 defense).   He was going to play in 3-4 defense  for the jets ( where he played for UCLA)    Jordan Jenkins had 7 sacks last year - you confident he's a consistent pass rusher . I'll bet you never stiffs that many next year.     See Lorenzo Mauldin after his rookie year where he had what five sacks.     Jet fans were predicted double digit sack numbers.      Mauldin wasn't a sack guy , and neither is Jordan " turtle" Jenkins. Put your money where your mouth is that J Jenkins will get 7 sacks in 2019.

[#27TheDominator]

9 minutes ago, Raideraholic said:

Do you know what 3-4 outside lb's do.  Not only should they be the guys providing the pressure, but these guys have to be good in coverage too.    Both A Barr ,and  Josh Allen  both can do both those things well.     You don't have complete set , you still have a hole on defense.    Why the Jets panic and took the best player in the draft despite just giving big money to Henry Anderson.( they have hole now as they don't have the personnel to run eith a 4-3 or 3-4 defense.( missing big pieces).

You're ******* hysterical. I'm out.

[Raideraholic]

26 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

You're ******* hysterical. I'm out.

The Jets were able to acquire Henry Anderson for peanuts because the Colts were moving to 4-3 defense.  Henry Anderson is strictly a 3-4 De.

The Jets signed Henry Anderson this offseason because the plan was to stay a3-4 defense.( his game isn't suited for 4-3 ) .      You can try to convince yourself that Jets wanted to be able  to have flexibility to play either a 4-3 or 3-4.   Know your own players, and know what they do best. 

[jeremy2020]

Mac also didn't care about the corners.

[#27TheDominator]

12 minutes ago, Raideraholic said:

The Jets were able to acquire Henry Anderson for peanuts because the Colts were moving to 4-3 defense.  Henry Anderson is strictly a 3-4 De.

The Jets signed Henry Anderson this offseason because the plan was to stay a3-4 defense.( his game isn't suited for 4-3 ) .      You can try to convince yourself that Jets wanted to be able  to have flexibility to play either a 4-3 or 3-4.   Know your own players, and know what they do best. 

Believe me.  I know them all better than you know your 4.3 breakout TE. 

1.  The Jets got Anderson for peanuts because he was in his contract year, was getting paid solid money (he hit the escalators), was hurt all the time, and then because he wasn't perfectly suited to what they wanted.

2.  You are wildly oversimplifying things.  There are different defenses.  The main difference isn't 3/4 or 4/3.  Rex, Parcells and Bowles all ran wildly different versions of the 3/4 here.  Besides, when it is all said and done we are in nickel, what?  45% of the time? 

3.  You seem to be the only person left on the planet convinced that Maccagnan had a coherent plan. We had 4 years of evidence that none existed.  Why was 2019 going to be different?  It is what got him fired.

 

[Bugg]

7 hours ago, Raideraholic said:

You haven't learned anything from the last time you tried to build all world defense line with just DT's  .    Last time you had a better set of DT's , and CB group .     It didn't work that time, and it isn't going to work now.( upgrading inside lb position doesn't  do anything in a passing league). 

The Jets have to figure out what kind of defense they want to be a 3-4 , or 4-3 defense.   Get the personnel that fit that defense.    If they are 3-4 defense- get olb's that can rush the passer .    If you want be a 4-3 defense- Get real pass rushing De's ( not DT's ) that can rush the Qb.

The Jets were close this off season of building a very very  good 3-4 defense .    They had the Defense line of H Anderson , S MClendon , and Leonard Williams .They thought they signed A Barr to play one outside position, and would have  have drafted Josh Allen to play the other.    Their inside lb Corp was top notch added Cj Mosely to go with A Williamson.

One change of heart by Olb A Barr totally threw their plans in the toilet, and changed history forever.

Agreed; our last GM acted like DTs were all that matters-along with DBs. Simply did not pick anyone who scared any opposing OC nor QB. If Q doesn't get to the QB ,  and more than Leo does has, or at least allows outside guys to get in,  will be a ragged defense. 

Think the 3-4/4-3 thing is also overrated. With as much passing as there is, nickel and dime formations eat into that 'straight defense" too. Most teams run variations of both, depending on who is available, down and distance, game situation. gain, something fans obsess over that doesn't matter as much as you think it does. 

[ryu79]

Ariz just lost another cb on top of Peterson. We need to act fast as they will apparently be shopping the position aggressively too...

[bealeb319]

There shouldn’t be any sort of expectation win-wise from this team  this year because:
A) Sam is only in his second year and has to learn an entire new system to boot;
B ) it’s Gase first year as well...he’s permitted some time to build his Vision of a winning culture, I hope;
C) Douglas got hired like 2 weeks ago, it’s not really his team.
I say let the kids play...

There also shouldn't be any expectations lose wise. We should field the best team possible just in case. The worst thing we could do is assume we won't be great, end up being just good enough to miss the playoffs because we didn't go out of our way to fill a roster spot we knew was super weak just before the season

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