Barkus Green and White Scrimmage Report

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, shevys said:

Why do we have to lose them? 

Bad secondary, no pass rush, and bad kicker.  

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

People are still looking to lose games for draft position?  It amazes me why these types even follow the team.  They care more about the crapshoot of a draft than actual games.  It's mind boggling.

The idea that a HC will allow his team to lose, purposely, with veterans etc on the roster is crazy.  Players have what 4-5 year careers on average and they're going to be cool with losing on purpose.  Sure they will be

Then you have a HC, every asst coach, the GM, all whose jobs are dependant on and evaluated on wins and loses, willing to get fired over losing and possibly never get another chance.  Sure they will be

Then theres the idea that if you tank you will definitely draft a stud, franchise changing player.  How long have we been watching football?  How many stud, cant miss players, QBs especially have failed?  None?  Lose your job, locker etc over something that isnt guaranteed?  Sure, good plan.

These great plans only work AFTER the draft and you know what the top few players become.  Never seems to happen after most Jets fans wanted the Jets to tank for R Bush and were pissed off because we didnt get the chance at that HOF RB

[Jetsfan80]

6 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

The idea that a HC will allow his team to lose, purposely, with veterans etc on the roster is crazy.  Players have what 4-5 year careers on average and they're going to be cool with losing on purpose.  Sure they will be

Some people still don't understand what tanking is.

No team or coach EVER tries to lose on purpose.  Tanking is front office-driven.  It's a decision not to upgrade certain positions (like, say, kicker), and being fine if the team loses.  Or telling a HC to play young guys.  It's never coach or player-driven. 

This is why Rex Ryan should have been fired midseason in 2014, and Bowles midseason last year.  We won meaningless games because Rex/Bowles were trying to improve their resume for their next stop.  Not a chance any coach, much less Rex, would actively try to lose meaningless game or play the young players.  Rex admitted as much when he actively tried to win PRESEASON games.  

That's true even in the NBA.  No team or coach is trying to lose.  But on bad teams not in contention, young guys are getting played over veterans with the excuse "we're trying to see what we have."  

[Maxman]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Thanks PK, the '09 reference is a good one.  That team underachieved big time.  

 

CC:  @Maxman

I just laughed out loud. Hate you though haha.

[Jetsfan80]

22 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

If losing games is so great, then how come this year we were forced to select Quinnen Williams?  Our hands were tied!  Same in 2008.  Forced, I say!

Not really sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing here.  But of course anyone can come up with a few situations where losing an extra game or 2 wouldn't have ultimately mattered.  I'm talking about the long game.  All things being equal, in a lost season, its better to end up with a higher draft pick.  Even if you don't like the guys at the top of the board you might be able to trade down.  

And in 2008, we could have gotten Matt Ryan had we tanked properly.  Lots of people don't like Matt Ryan around here, and I get that.  But the dude has a 20/7 TD/INT ratio in the postseason and a Super Bowl appearance under his belt for a team owned by a total moron in Arthur Blank.  We also could have traded down to a team who wanted Ryan.

[Jet Nut]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Some people still don't understand what tanking is.

No team or coach EVER tries to lose on purpose.  Tanking is front office-driven.  It's a decision not to upgrade certain positions (like, say, kicker), and being fine if the team loses.  Or telling a HC to play young guys.  It's never coach or player-driven. 

 

Pretty much not what tanking is.  Youre understanding is wrong, today or yesterday.  

Say it anyway you want, tanking is losing games on purpose.  Not this.  As if any NFL vet wouldnt see through it and get pissed.  Or that this definition somehow makes someone available at a position you want to strengthen.  Or that he will become what you expec because it was FO driven.  Which I assume was covered when I talked about availability of that player at the draft position, the development of that player and when I didnt limit tanking to HC, clearly mentioned GM

Quote

Then you have a HC, every asst coach, the GM, all whose jobs are dependant on and evaluated on wins and loses

 

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The pro-tank crowd has been correct at nearly every turn.  Just about every single time we've had a bad season, we've won meaningless games towards the end of the season that cost us a shot at a great or better player at our draft slot.  And the "learning to win" crowd, predictably, came out to defend those late season wins in a lost season.

There's nuance to what I posted that you missed (such as not WANTING to tank but accepting that 6-10 wouldn't be the worst result to 2019), but of course you ignore that to make a blanket statement and go the #FakeFan route.  Par for the course for you.  

In the last 7 years, the Jets have picked in top 10, 5 times.  3, 3, 6, 6, 9.....18 and 20. 

 

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, JiF said:

In the last 7 years, the Jets have picked in top 10, 5 times.  3, 3, 6, 6, 9.....18 and 20. 

 

And picking even higher would have provided us with valuable draft capital, and perhaps placed us at the the very back of the 1st round a couple times.  You're not helping your point, you're helping mine.  We've constantly had bad seasons but not bad enough, hence we were stuck in no-mans land.  

Even if you don't like the QB's in a draft, even you can admit that trading down for 2-3 first rounders (even if you have no idea what you'll end up with in the end) is a lot better than being forced to stick and pick some DT, right?

[shevys]

30 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Bad secondary, no pass rush, and bad kicker.  

Good QB, aggressive coach, very good skill players. 

[Jetsbb]

Charrone Peake will make the team. Connor Hughes said in the Athletic that Gase is infatuated with Cannon and Peake as gunners on special teams. I also remember the special teams coach in one of his pressers lamenting that they were just not as good without Peake and no one could do it as good as him when he was injured.

[Untouchable]

2 minutes ago, Jetsbb said:

Charrone Peake will make the team. Connor Hughes said in the Athletic that Gase is infatuated with Cannon and Peake as gunners on special teams. I also remember the special teams coach in one of his pressers lamenting that they were just not as good without Peake and no one could do it as good as him when he was injured.

Which WR are they cutting to keep Peake just strictly for his ability as a gunner on specials?

I can’t see the Jets carrying more than 6 wideouts.

I’m not cutting someone like Burnett or Dortch for this guy. I wouldn’t even cut a dude like Bellamy, who Gase adores and is a great locker room guy who also has value on specials.

Anderson

Enunwa 

Crowder

Burnett

Dortch

Bellamy

 

Hell, I’d even keep a guy like Thompson over Peake.

[JustInFudge]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

And picking even higher would have provided us with valuable draft capital, and perhaps placed us at the the very back of the 1st round a couple times.  

Even if you don't like the QB's in a draft, even you can admit that trading down for 2-3 first rounders (even if you have no idea what you'll end up) is a lot better than being forced to stick and pick some DT, right?

There is no formula.  You just have to pick the right guys.  This isnt a 2 round draft where 5 guys emerge. 

This team with the draft position they've had could have likes the of Todd Gurley, Preston Smith, Pat Mahomes, Will Fuller, Yannick Ngakue, Tyreek Hill, JuJu, Quinten Nelson, Darius Leonard, Orlando Brown and Josh Allen or Ed Oliver.

I dont think you'd be complaining about draft positioning if that was the nucleus?  No? 

 

[Fantasy Island]

Jamal Adams

 

@TheAdamsEra

·

47m

 

I don’t do this for clout. I do this because I was once that little kid... My goal was very simple last night. It was to change a life or two! Luv

Quote Tweet

 

 

SportsCenter

 

@SportsCenter

· 13h

.@TheAdamsEra is making sure every fan gets an autograph

 

(via @nyjets)

 

 

0:06

862.9K views

 

 

73

 

394

 

2.5K

 

I have to give props to Jamal, class act.

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, JiF said:

There is no formula.  You just have to pick the right guys.  This isnt a 2 round draft where 5 guys emerge. 

This team with the draft position they've had could have likes the of Todd Gurley, Preston Smith, Pat Mahomes, Will Fuller, Yannick Ngakue, Tyreek Hill, JuJu, Quinten Nelson, Darius Leonard, Orlando Brown and Josh Allen or Ed Oliver.

I dont think you'd be complaining about draft positioning if that was the nucleus?  No? 

 

I'm talking about draft capital here.  Having the ability to move down for several first rounders would be nice.  We've never been in position to do that because we win meaningless games late in seasons.  We even had to trade UP in a "tank year" to get Darnold.  

I get the "draft is a crapshoot" argument.  But having a higher pick OR lots of early picks helps mitigate that risk a good bit.  

[Lith]

I have been part of the pro tank crowd for the last few years.  2017.  We were a bad team in need of a QB.  Losing made sense.  We did not lose quite enough, had to give up a bunch of 2nd round picks, but we got our QB.  So be it.

2018.  Did not expect to contend with a rookie QB.  As long as QB developed, W-L record was not that important.  Not going to make the playoffs, may as well lose the tight ones.  Is what it is.

But it ends now.  At least for me.  Win some games.  How many double digit losing seasons does it take to turn a team around.  You want to attract free agents without having to be the highest bidder every time, win some games.  It has just become so f**king depressing as a fan to feel like a December win is hurthing the team.  I want to see them play meaningful football in December 2019.  Not 2020 or 2021.  I would rather win 9 games, play meaningful December football and fall short of the playoffs than be out of it by Nov 1, lose double digits again and pick in the top 10.

Sure, if we get off to a 1-6 start, maybe I will feel differently, but I cannot go into this season rooting for losses or rooting for a tank.

 

[Losmeister]

26 minutes ago, Jetsbb said:

Charrone Peake will make the team. Connor Hughes said in the Athletic that Gase is infatuated with Cannon and Peake as gunners on special teams. I also remember the special teams coach in one of his pressers lamenting that they were just not as good without Peake and no one could do it as good as him when he was injured.

I felt certain of Cannon for the same reasons...        out of that list,for me,  adios Bellamy

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, Lith said:

I have been part of the pro tank crowd for the last few years.  2017.  We were a bad team in need of a QB.  Losing made sense.  We did not lose quite enough, had to give up a bunch of 2nd round picks, but we got our QB.  So be it.

2018.  Did not expect to contend with a rookie QB.  As long as QB developed, W-L record was not that important.  Not going to make the playoffs, may as well lose the tight ones.  Is what it is.

But it ends now.  At least for me.  Win some games.  How many double digit losing seasons does it take to turn a team around.  You want to attract free agents without having to be the highest bidder every time, win some games.  It has just become so f**king depressing as a fan to feel like a December win is hurthing the team.  I want to see them play meaningful football in December 2019.  Not 2020 or 2021.  I would rather win 9 games, play meaningful December football and fall short of the playoffs than be out of it by Nov 1, lose double digits again and pick in the top 10.

Sure, if we get off to a 1-6 start, maybe I will feel differently, but I cannot go into this season rooting for losses or rooting for a tank.

 

 

Definitely, definitely not rooting for losses.  I'm just not going to consider punching a wall if Darnold plays well and we go 6-10.  There's a silver lining if that happens.  

We have our franchise QB.  Gotta win as much as we can as soon as we can.  

[JustInFudge]

42 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I'm talking about draft capital here.  Having the ability to move down for several first rounders would be nice.  We've never been in position to do that because we win meaningless games late in seasons.  We even had to trade UP in a "tank year" to get Darnold.  

I get the "draft is a crapshoot" argument.  But having a higher pick OR lots of early picks helps mitigate that risk a good bit.  

I mean, sure we have...we just havent had the GM to pull it off or said GM didnt like the value of the offers.  Teams move all around the draft, early rounds, mid rounds, late rounds...beginning middle and end of rounds.  All over!    The Patriots are known for trading away picks and they're typically picking in the 28-32 range.  Besides, I dont think there is any precedent for teams who value quantity vs. quality working more than the other.   

And who cares if you had to trade up?  You know who else did.  KC and Philly.  Doesnt seem to hurt them at all. 

 

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

2 hours ago, nyjunc said:

People are still looking to lose games for draft position?  It amazes me why these types even follow the team.  They care more about the crapshoot of a draft than actual games.  It's mind boggling.

There was no reason for this team to play McCown at QB in 2017 and ride a career season from a 40 year old To 5 meaningless wins when every other player over 30 was traded or cut. 2017 was a tank for a QB but the 5 wins cost the Jets valuable draft picks. 2017 was a tank year and the Jets blew it. Thank God for Gettleman.

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

4 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Reactions to your reactions:

• QB:  If Webb is gonna be here, he shouldn't get any reps in practice.  Make him hold a clipboard or clean some toilets.  Something other than throwing a football.  
• RB:  Despite Cannon not getting any carries, he has to have the leg up over McGuire due to ST's contributions.  McGuire must be toast, right?
• TE:  Jeez, when will the Wesco hype train leave the station?  Has he done anything of note all summer?
• LB:  Luvu is a must-keep.  We should keep Basham and Kaufusi too.  Just keep all the young, promising front 7 guys please.  
• C :  Kalil has been having trouble with shotgun snaps since he started practicing.  He's chalked it up to rustiness, but we need him to get it together for the crucial Week 3 preseason game.  
• No injuries:  Halellujah!  

Crucial pre season game? No such thing. Not even close. Week 1 is all that matters. Preseason games become more meaningless every season.

[GREENBEAN]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

What great players did it cost us?  The draft is a crapshoot.  I remember when jet fans wanted Reggie bush, wanted to tank for him and we beat Buffalo the final week of 05 to essentially cost us bush.  We got Leon Washington in the 4tg Rd and he was basically a copy of bush.

Remember "suck for Luck"?  And he was a generational talent.  Tanking does not work.

Damn Darnold's game winning drive as Buffalo was much more important than draft position.

Good players can be found anywhere, you just need the right people looking for those players and making those decisions.  Hopefully we finally found that GM and his staff.

I will never understand the wannabe GM fans that would rather lose games so they can have more fun with draft day in April.  

In a crap shoot its all about percentages.  You want to increase the odds. Who could even argue that the players at the top of the draft have a better chance of being successful than later in the draft? Sure there are guys who turn out in all rounds but it's not even a question of where those odds are increased. 

Losing at the end of a meaningless season is smart, albeit not something that actually takes place in reality.  We can still hope we lose from a fan perspective though.  Its the long game attitude. Sure there are nice warm fuzzies that accompany any win, but it's temporary and doesn't help the long game other than chance being chance. If your one who is tired of mediocrity, then wanting the team to have a shot at the franchise QB or what have you is absolutely understandable.  Additionally, I've never seen a team pull off a organization changing haul of draft picks when they were not in 5 or so. So there's that side of a high pick as well. There's a reason why teams are willing to trade multi year fist rd picks to get up that high. Cleveland is looking pretty good right about now after having a few years of more than on high draft pick and a GM that knows his stuff. 

Hell, with the way Jets seasons have traditionally gone, I've actually had much more fun during the offseason most of the time. We are perennial champs that time of year. lol  There's a piece of me that just looks at the season as prep work for the real fun to start in March.  

Now of course I'm hoping we win more games than we lose this year, but if  we're sitting at 3-10 you can bet I'll be rooting for 3-13. 

[GREENBEAN]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

TE's do take longer than a lot of other positions to develop.  That's definitely true.  Per this September 2018 article:

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/280521/history-says-rookie-tight-ends-struggle-to-make-immediate-impact

 

Right.  I'm not worried about Wesco and can't see the Jets letting him go if the choice is him odd Tomlinson etc. Wesco will be here for 10 years and be the best TE in Jets history.  You heard it here first. Just gotta give him a min.  And as a die hard Shuler fan that's a lot for me to say.  

[nyjunc]

59 minutes ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

There was no reason for this team to play McCown at QB in 2017 and ride a career season from a 40 year old To 5 meaningless wins when every other player over 30 was traded or cut. 2017 was a tank for a QB but the 5 wins cost the Jets valuable draft picks. 2017 was a tank year and the Jets blew it. Thank God for Gettleman.

I would never want to root for a team that doesn't at least try to win just because we want more draft picks which may or may not turn out to be good players.  We made a great trade with Seattle then with Indy and secured our QB hopefully for a decade plus.

We did get lucky the Giants hired Gettleman but luck usually plays some sort of role in these things.  

[nyjunc]

54 minutes ago, GREENBEAN said:

In a crap shoot its all about percentages.  You want to increase the odds. Who could even argue that the players at the top of the draft have a better chance of being successful than later in the draft? Sure there are guys who turn out in all rounds but it's not even a question of where those odds are increased. 

Losing at the end of a meaningless season is smart, albeit not something that actually takes place in reality.  We can still hope we lose from a fan perspective though.  Its the long game attitude. Sure there are nice warm fuzzies that accompany any win, but it's temporary and doesn't help the long game other than chance being chance. If your one who is tired of mediocrity, then wanting the team to have a shot at the franchise QB or what have you is absolutely understandable.  Additionally, I've never seen a team pull off a organization changing haul of draft picks when they were not in 5 or so. So there's that side of a high pick as well. There's a reason why teams are willing to trade multi year fist rd picks to get up that high. Cleveland is looking pretty good right about now after having a few years of more than on high draft pick and a GM that knows his stuff. 

Hell, with the way Jets seasons have traditionally gone, I've actually had much more fun during the offseason most of the time. We are perennial champs that time of year. lol  There's a piece of me that just looks at the season as prep work for the real fun to start in March.  

Now of course I'm hoping we win more games than we lose this year, but if  we're sitting at 3-10 you can bet I'll be rooting for 3-13. 

The Jets are going to win or lose regardless of whether I root for them to win or lose so why would I waste my energy rooting for my team to lose.

Cleveland has been awful for most of 2 decades and they finally have what should be a good team.  They didn't tank, they just sucked.  Did that help them?  There's a reason certain teams draft high and always lose and others draft low and always win.

If we're 3-10 I'm rooting for 6-10.  I wish I had the ability to get them to win games based on my rooting interests.  

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, shevys said:

Good QB, aggressive coach, very good skill players. 

....Can only do so much?  What are we arguing here?  That the list of pros outweigh the cons and we'll win more shootouts than we'd lose?  Perhaps.  But it's easier to foresee days with the offense isn't on point more than it's easy to see days where our defense will dominate based on the personnel we have.  

[Drums]

7 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

He was the one that crushed Avery's knee.   

That was a weird injury imo. Didn’t know that was possible (tearing an ACL like that). 

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

Crucial pre season game? No such thing. Not even close. Week 1 is all that matters. Preseason games become more meaningless every season.

Week 3 is the most crucial, because the starters play the majority of the game.  Hence that's when the worst injuries can occur.  Hence why everyone needs to be on their game.  

[ryu79]

8 hours ago, Patriot Killa said:

We didn’t know how good we had it. Sam with the 09 OL would be scary.

And the 09 defence...

Bart says they would have won the SB with Sam.

[nyjunc]

Just now, ryu79 said:

And the 09 defence...

Bart says they would have won the SB with Sam.

They didn't miss the SB because of the QB, they missed it because the D got shredded in the title game.  We would have made the SB in 09 and 10 if we had the Giants 07 or 11 Ds

[#27TheDominator]

6 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

They didn't miss the SB because of the QB, they missed it because the D got shredded in the title game.  We would have made the SB in 09 and 10 if we had the Giants 07 or 11 Ds

Repeating yourself - over and over and over and over again - does not make you right.  The Jets D in 2009 and 2010 was worlds better than the Giants in either of those years and if our QB didn't sh*t the bed for the entire first half against the Steelers we would have done much better than if we had the Giants mid-pack defense.  Our "shredded" defense gave up a grand total of 17 points and scored 2.  Yes, the D struggled in the first half, but that was nothing compared to Sanchez going for 16 yards and -7 points on his first 4 drives.  You can rant in this thread and all others about how you dominate me and everyone else, but it does not change the fact that you are 100% wrong on this topic and many others.  

[ryu79]

7 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

They didn't miss the SB because of the QB, they missed it because the D got shredded in the title game.  We would have made the SB in 09 and 10 if we had the Giants 07 or 11 Ds

Let's be honest - if big jenks doesn't get hurt we might have won both years anyway... For me that's the low key, not as talked about tragedy if that era. That d was almost unplayable with him in there.

I don't disagree with you, just noting what one of the stars of that team has said about Sam.

[Jimmy 2 Times]

34 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

They didn't miss the SB because of the QB, they missed it because the D got shredded in the title game.  We would have made the SB in 09 and 10 if we had the Giants 07 or 11 Ds

Five page argument defending Sanchez then morphing into how Brady made Belichek in 3...2...

[GREENBEAN]

7 hours ago, nyjunc said:

The Jets are going to win or lose regardless of whether I root for them to win or lose so why would I waste my energy rooting for my team to lose.

Cleveland has been awful for most of 2 decades and they finally have what should be a good team.  They didn't tank, they just sucked.  Did that help them?  There's a reason certain teams draft high and always lose and others draft low and always win.

If we're 3-10 I'm rooting for 6-10.  I wish I had the ability to get them to win games based on my rooting interests.  

lol  hey man, if we're gonna get into the fans hopes, dreams and intentions having an effect on games then the same can be said for rooting to win. that's just silly talk.  We don't need to do that here. We're fans and rooting for one thing or another is all we have. Well, that and throwing $hit around the house.  Don't get me wrong. I can completely understand your point of view. I'm a genius like that. Truly special it seems.  

The point of my post was an attempt to shed light on the side of it that you claimed you didn't understand (which I'm confident was hyperbole).  Just talking as we do. 

The thing about Cleveland is, sure they sucked but that was because they had terrible leadership. Similar to our beloved Jets.  But I can tell ya that a good GM, which Dorsey is, having more than one high 1st rd pick in a given draft can change the entire franchise.  The odds are much better to do that from the top of the draft than the bottom. Remember that the early pick is in every round. Not just the 1st of course.  The jury is still out on whether or not noobie coach Kitchens can keep this thing together but no one can deny the talent on that roster and much of it was gained in the draft.  That's all I want for the Jets.  Good players who play hard and get coached well. 

Now that we have Sam I'm not so into the idea of losing but it was important to get him. He was hanging out at the top of the draft with guys like Baker Mayfield and Saquan Barkley.  And to be there to get our new ginger snap. 

 I might even be with you at the 3-10 thing this year just for Sam's sake now, but that would be hard for me. I'm so used to wanting to suck at the end of the year I just may be damaged goods anymore. Let's hope I don't have to find out what I do. 

[Patriot Killa]

12 hours ago, GREENBEAN said:

What we saw in the Atlanta game is exactly what he will be used for. Solid blocking followed by the peel off first down or TD. 

If he can do this at a High level then we’re going to be good. Two TE sets with Herndon and a more polished Wesco will be exciting in the future.

[shevys]

8 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

....Can only do so much?  What are we arguing here?  That the list of pros outweigh the cons and we'll win more shootouts than we'd lose?  Perhaps.  But it's easier to foresee days with the offense isn't on point more than it's easy to see days where our defense will dominate based on the personnel we have.  

I’m a glass half-full kind of guy. What can I say?