Justin Fields Pro Day 3/30 (for those still holding on)

[legler82]

7 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

So the scheme was to take the passing game away - in a broad sense how was that not specific to Fields  ?  They didn't want OSU passing against them and Fields was the QB . 

They lost so the plan didn’t work.

[varjet]

3 minutes ago, bitonti said:

 

it's not that i'm against all teams doing it - this team doing it in this draft will end poorly for all involved. they just aren't ready to think about a Super Bowl 

 

 

I think for the Jets, letting Darnold play in 2021, have him leave for a comp pick or tag/trade, and then start the QB picked this year seems like the best option, a la the Chiefs.  

I agree that putting either Wilson or Fields back there in 2021 will not end well, but a team can be built quickly, and by next year the team/OL should be more respectable.

[56mehl56]

13 minutes ago, varjet said:

I think for the Jets, letting Darnold play in 2021, have him leave for a comp pick or tag/trade, and then start the QB picked this year seems like the best option, a la the Chiefs.  

I agree that putting either Wilson or Fields back there in 2021 will not end well, but a team can be built quickly, and by next year the team/OL should be more respectable.

I would agree with this plan if the CS and OC weren't brand new , you'd have Darnold and the existing players acting as "teachers" for the newcomers. In our case  since they are all starting from scratch , I say let the rookie QB learn and gel together from the outset. 

[CTJetsFan]

2 hours ago, legler82 said:

This guy elaborates on what I’m talking about.

 

That was very interesting. Thanks for posting!

[Paradis]

2 hours ago, legler82 said:

This guy elaborates on what I’m talking about.

 

He’s really hitting on zach’s propensity to play hero ball... which was the earliest of criticisms/concerns. I don’t know about coaching quarterbacks to comment on what level of concern comes with this. 

[QB1]

he’s got like 5 videos on Wilson 

[Sperm Edwards]

5 hours ago, bitonti said:

Dude 

This time 2 months ago you predicted they'd use all the cap space to sign thuney and linsley and Arob 

Here's the real deal: they have 1 good lineman and the rest of the line sucks. A 2nd Rd guard is not going to change this 

They have garbage wide outs and that's before they cutting Crowder. Corey Davis is a 2 we are expecting to be a 1. The rb and tight ends are atrocious. 

The defense is an absolute wasteland at olb and cb. They are going to use at least half theirs picks switching to the 4-3 

This team is not getting significantly better before the season. This is the team. 

If they draft a wilson at the 2 spot, he's going to be expected to start week 1 and he's going to be creamed 

Predicted? What bullshit. No I didn't, unless you can produce a post saying so.

I said they could afford him even if they signed Watson, and also that they would be spending on players this offseason, which they did even if I'm only lukewarm on it.

Robinson & Godwin were franchise tagged so they never reached FA. Juju took a lesser contract to return to Pittsburgh. Among WRs who didn't change teams, the only other more expensive one than Davis was Golloday, coming off an injury. 

Thuney went to KC to win a championship there; there wasn't much to do about that unless the Jets were going to bid almost $20MM for a guard. The only one they should have gone after & it seems they didn't was Linsley, but it would've taken $13MM/yr to outbid the Chargers for a center whose first game on his new contract begins at age 30.

I still would've offered that to Linsley myself, as I thought the upgrade from Lewis/McGovern to Linsley/McGovern was worth $6MM/year (actually less, since they could've signed one less $3.5MM marginal guard). 

I'm not the biggest JD apologist here - far from it - but Golloday and Linsley are ultimately the end of the major list of shoulda gone after, and time will tell if both were better pickups or just more expensive. 

You have an irrational black & white way of looking at things where

• anyone who isn't all-pro is garbage
• anyone who isn't drafted in the top 10 is a bleh prospect, including splitting hairs over things like the 11th vs the 10th slot as though it's significant
• anyone who isn't a max contract player is evidence of Woody Johnson mandating a spending freeze (in addition to your comical theory that he's a cash poor billionaire)
• cap space leftover is also a Johnson mandate

It's been that way forever with you, which is why you think a QB-less team drafting a safety at #6 in the country was smart team building if he gets personal awards, a team with a young LT drafting a second OT with the #2 overall pick is even wiser, and later trading Adams for two 1sts and a 3rd to a sucker was tragic. 

The defense is in worse shape than the offense, but that has far less to do with the "situation" a rookie QB would be walking into than the offense.

The fact - and it is a fact not an opinion - is about half or most playoff teams have made the playoffs with a line of lesser-investment starters than the Jets will start, often getting by with late-rounder starters plus backups when their best or second-best lineman went on IR. Their teams didn't crumble because of it if the QB didn't stink on ice.

It kills you to admit that at least 3/5 of the lines in KC, Balt, and frankly most playoff teams were late-rounders and cheap FAs, because it flies in the face of your baseline stance that only top 10 picks and max contract FAs are required.

My point is not that this offense is so great on paper; no one thinks that. It's that if Wilson sucks it'll be because he sucks, not because of the OL or the lack of a fantasy football WR1. 

[Mogglez]

6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Predicted? What bullsh*t. No I didn't, unless you can produce a post saying so.

I said they could afford him even if they signed Watson, and also that they would be spending on players this offseason, which they did even if I'm only lukewarm on it.

Robinson & Godwin were franchise tagged so they never reached FA. Juju took a lesser contract to return to Pittsburgh. Among WRs who didn't change teams, the only other more expensive one than Davis was Golloday, coming off an injury. 

Thuney went to KC to win a championship there; there wasn't much to do about that unless the Jets were going to bid almost $20MM for a guard. The only one they should have gone after & it seems they didn't was Linsley, but it would've taken $13MM/yr to outbid the Chargers for a center whose first game on his new contract begins at age 30.

I still would've offered that to Linsley myself, as I thought the upgrade from Lewis/McGovern to Linsley/McGovern was worth $6MM/year (actually less, since they could've signed one less $3.5MM marginal guard). 

I'm not the biggest JD apologist here - far from it - but Golloday and Linsley are ultimately the end of the major list of shoulda gone after, and time will tell if both were better pickups or just more expensive. 

You have an irrational black & white way of looking at things where

• anyone who isn't all-pro is garbage
• anyone who isn't drafted in the top 10 is a bleh prospect, including splitting hairs over things like the 11th vs the 10th slot as though it's significant
• anyone who isn't a max contract player is evidence of Woody Johnson mandating a spending freeze (in addition to your comical theory that he's a cash poor billionaire)
• cap space leftover is also a Johnson mandate

It's been that way forever with you, which is why you think a QB-less team drafting a safety at #6 in the country was smart team building if he gets personal awards, a team with a young LT drafting a second OT with the #2 overall pick is even wiser, and later trading Adams for two 1sts and a 3rd to a sucker was tragic. 

The defense is in worse shape than the offense, but that has far less to do with the "situation" a rookie QB would be walking into than the offense.

The fact - and it is a fact not an opinion - is about half or most playoff teams have made the playoffs with a line of lesser-investment starters than the Jets will start, often getting by with late-rounder starters plus backups when their best or second-best lineman went on IR. Their teams didn't crumble because of it if the QB didn't stink on ice.

It kills you to admit that at least 3/5 of the lines in KC, Balt, and frankly most playoff teams were late-rounders and cheap FAs, because it flies in the face of your baseline stance that only top 10 picks and max contract FAs are required.

My point is not that this offense is so great on paper; no one thinks that. It's that if Wilson sucks it'll be because he sucks, not because of the OL or the lack of a fantasy football WR1. 

This post (particularly these parts): 

[bitonti]

8 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It's been that way forever with you, which is why you think a QB-less team drafting a safety at #6 in the country was smart team building

 

It kills you to admit that at least 3/5 of the lines in KC, Balt, and frankly most playoff teams were late-rounders and cheap FAs, because it flies in the face of your baseline stance that only top 10 picks and max contract FAs are required.

My point is not that this offense is so great on paper; no one thinks that. It's that if Wilson sucks it'll be because he sucks, not because of the OL or the lack of a fantasy football WR1. 

there's an actual thread in NFL draft forum my mock draft from the Mahomes year that reads "hope they draft Mahomes, but they will probably lack guts and draft a safety."

3/5's of other teams lines aren't relevant when 4/5's of the Jets line is average and below. they have 1 player on offense to speak of Becton. The Chiefs and Ravens each spent 8 figures on guards this year. 

the last line "wilson will suck because he sucks"  neglects that a player like Wilson might need time to develop, and he's not going to get that here or proper infrastructure.

The fact is if the Jets had taken Mahomes at 6 and thrown him to the wolves week 1, that dude would have had a very different career indeed 

 

[Sperm Edwards]

4 hours ago, derp said:

Again, in an attempt to be brief - I think the situation is better than most fans tend to suggest (worst of everything in the league hyperbole).

That said I also think that we are used to absolutely horrific offensive talent and the current group of non-QB offensive players is still comfortably below average and not a good situation for quarterback development.

Put another way/kind of tossing this back at you. The recent track record of quarterbacks drafted in the top two, three, even five is pretty horrific. Most of the best quarterbacks in the league were actually drafted a bit later. To me that means one of two things: the way NFL teams evaluate quarterbacks is inherently flawed, or quarterbacks really only flourish and develop in quality situations.

I’m not sure what’s out there to show the Jets are either good enough at evaluating to break the trend of bad top of the draft evals if that’s the issue - particularly given the speculation that they’re going to stick with what draft media would do which has tracked with teams in the past with bad results. And I don’t see what about the Jets offensively - fully conceding they’re not as bad as most fans suggest - are good enough to help bring along a young quarterback as he develops. I think best case you’re looking at a league average line and bottom third groups of pass catchers and running backs. It’s better than what they’ve had but by no means good - and using the second pick on a guy utilizes a ton of capital.

Plus that team is going to be coming together entirely on the fly - new system, quarterback, and multiple other starters. Also think day two guards might start but otherwise you’re looking at 23 and 34 to add starters and there’s a non-trivial chance one of those picks is used on the defensive side of the ball.

Really the recent track record of quarterback picks is what concerns me and I really don’t see the Jets breaking that trend. If they take a quarterback and he works out nobody will be happier than me that I was wrong.

You're as good at "brief" as I am.

What I think a lot of people need to look at are the actual OLs that other teams have. There's this irrational belief that everyone else's are comprised of naught but 1st round picks (good ones, not busts that they picked up as veteran-minimum FAs).

I'm a huge believer in building a very strong OL. I'm not a huge believer that this means throwing disproportionate team resources towards this goal, because it's just not necessary.

Baltimore has ONE 1st round offensive lineman, and he missed most of the season last year. 

You're kind of drawing on my point of why trading down is not automatically great for the Jets from #2 this year, because there are only so many rookies any HC is going to want to field at the same time. I think some see that younger is better than older, and draft picks are cheaper than veterans, therefore draft 5 offensive linemen with high picks and we're set. Except it doesn't work that way & there's a reason no one does that. 

I don't expect - nor do I think is prudent for - the Jets to go offense-offense-offense with at least 4 of their top 5 picks. Honestly it'd be stupid. They're not starting 4 rookies on one side of the ball. 4/5 of the starting line will be returning, there's some depth there as well, and while it's a new coaching staff they're not suddenly switching from man to zone blocking or anything so it's not that much of a system-shock like 2020 was. 

I don't know if Douglas is right - I would have gone harder after at least one iOL upgrade myself - but he's going with the 2 new FAs he brought in last year, the LT he drafted last year, probably one rookie at one guard (drafted no later than day 2), and King of the Dipshits at the other guard slot. It's more than most playoff teams rode to the playoffs, whether people like to admit it or not. 

[HighPitch]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

the numbers are skewed by the Mannings. Zach Wilson has many great attributes, as does Justin Fields, neither is the son of a Pro Bowl QB from the 70's. 

the CBA favors teams that have a super Bowl window opening to draft a QB to keep expenses low . the 5th year option encourages them to do it in rd 1 like Tim Tebow 

the Jets still have low expenses, even post FA, low talent level, each side of the football learning new systems, and their super Bowl "window" doesn't exist 

it's not that i'm against all teams doing it - this team doing it in this draft will end poorly for all involved. they just aren't ready to think about a Super Bowl 

 

 

Ok we can agree to disagree.

You seem to think you draft a qb when you are already a good team. Ithink you snag the rare fish when the opportunity arises and keep building.

[HighPitch]

11 minutes ago, bitonti said:

 

The fact is if the Jets had taken Mahomes at 6 and thrown him to the wolves week 1, that dude would have had a very different career indeed 

 

Um, that is actually an opinion, not a fact

[legler82]

47 minutes ago, Paradis said:

He’s really hitting on zach’s propensity to play hero ball... which was the earliest of criticisms/concerns. I don’t know about coaching quarterbacks to comment on what level of concern comes with this. 

I wouldn’t call it hero ball. I think it’s just a matter of predetermining where you want to throw. His pre-snap coverage  recognition is really good ahead of the curve even. However, I don’t buy the narrative that he goes through reads quickly post snap. The pre-snap stuff could be a product of being in the same system for a while. That said, he didn’t go against too many exotic defenses this past season. I would have loved to see how he handled an Indiana, Northwestern or Alabama defense with their different looks pre and post snap.

[derp]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You're as good at "brief" as I am.

What I think a lot of people need to look at are the actual OLs that other teams have. There's this irrational belief that everyone else's are comprised of naught but 1st round picks (good ones, not busts that they picked up as veteran-minimum FAs).

I'm a huge believer in building a very strong OL. I'm not a huge believer that this means throwing disproportionate team resources towards this goal, because it's just not necessary.

Baltimore has ONE 1st round offensive lineman, and he missed most of the season last year. 

You're kind of drawing on my point of why trading down is not automatically great for the Jets from #2 this year, because there are only so many rookies any HC is going to want to field at the same time. I think some see that younger is better than older, and draft picks are cheaper than veterans, therefore draft 5 offensive linemen with high picks and we're set. Except it doesn't work that way & there's a reason no one does that. 

I don't expect - nor do I think is prudent for - the Jets to go offense-offense-offense with at least 4 of their top 5 picks. Honestly it'd be stupid. They're not starting 4 rookies on one side of the ball. 4/5 of the starting line will be returning, there's some depth there as well, and while it's a new coaching staff they're not suddenly switching from man to zone blocking or anything so it's not that much of a system-shock like 2020 was. 

I don't know if Douglas is right - I would have gone harder after at least one iOL upgrade myself - but he's going with the 2 new FAs he brought in last year, the LT he drafted last year, probably one rookie at one guard (drafted no later than day 2), and King of the Dipsh*ts at the other guard slot. It's more than most playoff teams rode to the playoffs, whether people like to admit it or not. 

I know, I am terrible at brief. I try to start there and then get rolling.

I still think you’re kind of boxing me in with other fans - I said best case the offensive line was league average but pass catchers and running backs bottom third. I’d love a great offensive line but I think Darnold caused them to look worse than they are, a year to gel will have those guys looking better, and an interior offensive lineman or two between picks 66, 86, and 107 could make a big difference. Maybe we find out why Douglas drafted Cameron Clark, too.

Not too concerned about running back either running outside zone. It’ll be a stable and they’ll produce.

I do think it’ll take a year for the line and the run game to really be humming, though. At least eight to ten games.

More importantly, I think young quarterbacks benefit from having a go to guy in the passing game and the Jets do not remotely have that guy on the team and have no path to get him this year, shy of getting lucky, with a quarterback at 2. That’s a huge hole and this is a perfect draft to fill that if they move down. And in a dream scenario they could trade down, get the fourth or fifth quarterback, and still come back up and get a top four pass catcher while retaining most if not all of their picks and potentially adding future capital.

I guess largely you always hear the whole philosophy is “you need to draft the guy when you have the chance because you don’t know if you’ll be at the top of the draft next year” but the teams that have had success drafting quarterbacks have actually gotten them later...so that logic is deeply flawed. I feel like that’s the whole concern with not taking the guy this year - you hope you’re not at the top of the draft next year. But I’m not convinced you want the guy at the top of the draft, so I don’t think it matters.

Not like the Jets will be that great next year either. And they’ll have two first round picks. Better chance they find the right guy if they trade down, have a decent offense in place, and are in striking distance to go get someone they like in the 6-10 range next year. By all means roll the dice on a Mond, Mills, Newman this year. See if you luck into the guy later. Shanahan offense is supposed to be easy on the QB, too. Don’t get why the second pick has to be invested in the position.

A lot of this comes from me thinking the line between Wilson, Fields, and Lance is pretty thin. They’re all extremely talented and all have big red flags.

And the rest comes from the idea that again, quarterbacks at the very top of the draft have not done well. And I see no reason why this Jets team is well positioned to break that trend.

[Sperm Edwards]

5 minutes ago, bitonti said:

there's an actual thread in NFL draft forum my mock draft from the Mahomes year that reads "hope they draft Mahomes, but they will probably lack guts and draft a safety."

3/5's of other teams lines aren't relevant when 4/5's of the Jets line is average and below. they have 1 player on offense to speak of Becton. The Chiefs and Ravens each spent 8 figures on guards this year. 

the last line "wilson will suck because he sucks"  neglects that a player like Wilson might need time to develop, and he's not going to get that here or proper infrastructure.

The fact is if the Jets had taken Mahomes at 6 and thrown him to the wolves week 1, that dude would have had a very different career indeed 

 

If that's even true it's only because you thought Adams was going to be off the board by #2 or #3.

Of course it's relevant that at least 3/5 of other PLAYOFF teams' lines have average to below average starters. 1-2 elite offensive linemen don't stop the other 3/5 from sucking, particularly if the 1-2 elite ones are tackles and the bleh ones all play next to each other in the middle.

The Chiefs and Ravens may have spent on guards this year, but it's convenient to gloss over how badly they didn't for years while still making the playoffs as the winningest 2 teams in 2019 (and in KC's case, winning a SB) and both . 

Here's the interior offensive line for the SB Champ Chiefs:

• 2nd year UDFA Andrew Wiley
• 4th year (and 1st year starter) former 7th round pick Austin Reiter
• Duvernay-Tardif, a 6th round pick out of friggin' McGill

This past year you can also subtract their starting RT Schwartz and replaced him with sucky journeyman G/T Remmers. Made it to the SB with Fisher and 4 useless bodies. 

The Ravens somehow someway made it through most of the 2020 season, scoring 30ppg and with their QB's sack numbers then dropping in half, with an OL of:

• ZERO 1st round picks, since Stanley missed most of the season
• ZERO 2nd round picks
• Bust DJ Fluker on a $1MM vet minimum contract
• undrafted C Matt Skura
• a 3rd round LT
• a 4th round RG
• a 6th round LG

So you don't know what you're talking about in terms of required investment to yield an adequate OL. 

The Jets fielded at worst comparable personnel on balance. They were all new faces (including a rookie at LT), doubly handicapped by limited time together in the covid preseason, and triply handicapped by a slow-running RB and slow-minded QB. Not surprising they played so much worse in the first half than the second half of the season. 

They won't have the best line in football, that's for sure. But - barring injury - the Jets' line should be enough that Wilson should be able to produce if he's worth even 80% of what some say he is. 

[bitonti]

4 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Here's the interior offensive line for the SB Champ Chiefs:

• 2nd year UDFA Andrew Wiley
• 4th year (and 1st year starter) former 7th round pick Austin Reiter
• Duvernay-Tardif, a 6th round pick out of friggin' McGill

yes that year they were healthy 

and this year, Fisher and Schwartz were hurt, LDT opted out to be a Dr in Canada and they lost the Super Bowl to a stacked Bucs team that used a top 15 pick at rookie right tackle 

the Ravens also missed Ronnie Stanley, the Titans missed Taylor Lewan. the story you're telling is how elite linemen get hurt and teams lose to healthier teams with better offensive lines. 

the Jets don't have a Fisher and Schwartz and a LDT

they have Becton and no one. FA didn't move the needle. This is the team. 

[JetBlue]

44 minutes ago, legler82 said:

I wouldn’t call it hero ball. I think it’s just a matter of predetermining where you want to throw. His pre-snap coverage  recognition is really good ahead of the curve even. However, I don’t buy the narrative that he goes through reads quickly post snap. The pre-snap stuff could be a product of being in the same system for a while. That said, he didn’t go against too many exotic defenses this past season. I would have loved to see how he handled an Indiana, Northwestern or Alabama defense with their different looks pre and post snap.

Well I know these teams are not of the same caliber but he played and beat both USC and Tenn. as a Freshman so he has gone up against some good defenses in college career.   The Tenn. was particularly impressive has he lead the team to a come from behind win throwing the winning TD in overtime. 

[JetBlue]

35 minutes ago, bitonti said:

yes that year they were healthy 

and this year, Fisher and Schwartz were hurt, LDT opted out to be a Dr in Canada and they lost the Super Bowl to a stacked Bucs team that used a top 15 pick at rookie right tackle 

the Ravens also missed Ronnie Stanley, the Titans missed Taylor Lewan. the story you're telling is how elite linemen get hurt and teams lose to healthier teams with better offensive lines. 

the Jets don't have a Fisher and Schwartz and a LDT

they have Becton and no one. FA didn't move the needle. This is the team. 

Conner McGovern and George Fant are not "nothing" no matter how much you may not like them.   You really need to stop with these kinds of absolutes.  The Jets offensive line needs a few OGs or OG and Center to move McGovern to guard.   For all we know Cameron Clark steps up and takes one of the guard spots in camp.  

[Paradis]

Too much hostility gentlemen. 

go watch some Pitts tape and cool off. 

[Jdub03]

Or we can switch back to the JF discussion and get back in the sauna, lol.

[JetBlue]

8 hours ago, playtowinthegame said:

I'm gonna be super disappointed if Joe Drafts Wilson over Fields. It seems like sometimes these scouts overthink things, and get paralysis from over analysis. Justin Fields is a legit dual threat quarterback, who can move the chains and avoid those 3 and outs. When I see him play I feel like I'm watching a bigger Russell Wilson. 

Just curious, so what is your evaluation of Wilson?  I mean you see Fields as a bigger Russell Wilson and Zach Wilson is getting comparisons to Aaron Rodgers and Pat Mahomes.   I can't see why you would be super disappointed if we landed someone with those comparisons...   

[QB1]

1 hour ago, Paradis said:

He’s really hitting on zach’s propensity to play hero ball... which was the earliest of criticisms/concerns. I don’t know about coaching quarterbacks to comment on what level of concern comes with this. 

Come on man, that video is one of the most nit picky breakdowns I’ve ever seen. 

[HighPitch]

8 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Too much hostility gentlemen. 

go watch some Pitts tape and cool off. 

Dude we all needs to b right

[Paradis]

2 minutes ago, QB1 said:

Come on man, that video is one of the most nit picky breakdowns I’ve ever seen. 

You might be right... but they all have flaws. Some of it was warranted. It’s not like fields or Wilson are without blemish. 

[Beerfish]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You're as good at "brief" as I am.

What I think a lot of people need to look at are the actual OLs that other teams have. There's this irrational belief that everyone else's are comprised of naught but 1st round picks (good ones, not busts that they picked up as veteran-minimum FAs).

I'm a huge believer in building a very strong OL. I'm not a huge believer that this means throwing disproportionate team resources towards this goal, because it's just not necessary.

Baltimore has ONE 1st round offensive lineman, and he missed most of the season last year. 

You're kind of drawing on my point of why trading down is not automatically great for the Jets from #2 this year, because there are only so many rookies any HC is going to want to field at the same time. I think some see that younger is better than older, and draft picks are cheaper than veterans, therefore draft 5 offensive linemen with high picks and we're set. Except it doesn't work that way & there's a reason no one does that. 

I don't expect - nor do I think is prudent for - the Jets to go offense-offense-offense with at least 4 of their top 5 picks. Honestly it'd be stupid. They're not starting 4 rookies on one side of the ball. 4/5 of the starting line will be returning, there's some depth there as well, and while it's a new coaching staff they're not suddenly switching from man to zone blocking or anything so it's not that much of a system-shock like 2020 was. 

I don't know if Douglas is right - I would have gone harder after at least one iOL upgrade myself - but he's going with the 2 new FAs he brought in last year, the LT he drafted last year, probably one rookie at one guard (drafted no later than day 2), and King of the Dipsh*ts at the other guard slot. It's more than most playoff teams rode to the playoffs, whether people like to admit it or not. 

Last time the Jets had a great oline?  D'Brick and Mangold. 

Next best GM in this regard?  Idzik.

Like all positions, using high picks increases your chance of getting the best players.

Use high picks for the oline.

This is particularly important when you have totally neglected that position for years.

If we are going to use the 'you can get good players alter argument' you would never consider a guy like Pitts at all.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 minutes ago, derp said:

I know, I am terrible at brief. I try to start there and then get rolling.

I still think you’re kind of boxing me in with other fans - I said best case the offensive line was league average but pass catchers and running backs bottom third. I’d love a great offensive line but I think Darnold caused them to look worse than they are, a year to gel will have those guys looking better, and an interior offensive lineman or two between picks 66, 86, and 107 could make a big difference. Maybe we find out why Douglas drafted Cameron Clark, too.

Not too concerned about running back either running outside zone. It’ll be a stable and they’ll produce.

I do think it’ll take a year for the line and the run game to really be humming, though. At least eight to ten games.

More importantly, I think young quarterbacks benefit from having a go to guy in the passing game and the Jets do not remotely have that guy on the team and have no path to get him this year, shy of getting lucky, with a quarterback at 2. That’s a huge hole and this is a perfect draft to fill that if they move down. And in a dream scenario they could trade down, get the fourth or fifth quarterback, and still come back up and get a top four pass catcher while retaining most if not all of their picks and potentially adding future capital.

I guess largely you always hear the whole philosophy is “you need to draft the guy when you have the chance because you don’t know if you’ll be at the top of the draft next year” but the teams that have had success drafting quarterbacks have actually gotten them later...so that logic is deeply flawed. I feel like that’s the whole concern with not taking the guy this year - you hope you’re not at the top of the draft next year. But I’m not convinced you want the guy at the top of the draft, so I don’t think it matters.

Not like the Jets will be that great next year either. And they’ll have two first round picks. Better chance they find the right guy if they trade down, have a decent offense in place, and are in striking distance to go get someone they like in the 6-10 range next year. By all means roll the dice on a Mond, Mills, Newman this year. See if you luck into the guy later. Shanahan offense is supposed to be easy on the QB, too. Don’t get why the second pick has to be invested in the position.

A lot of this comes from me thinking the line between Wilson, Fields, and Lance is pretty thin. They’re all extremely talented and all have big red flags.

And the rest comes from the idea that again, quarterbacks at the very top of the draft have not done well. And I see no reason why this Jets team is well positioned to break that trend.

I'm the last one here you'd need to apologize to for a lack of brevity. Never mind I don't think it's an apology-requiring offense in the first place . Maybe those who use fewer words only know a few. I tell myself that & it keeps me warm at night.

I think there was a push to go with outside zone last year, with 4 new faces starting and limited preseason, and then the stupid idea that Bell or Gore or a rookie RB with 4.6-4.7 speed could turn the corner (or even reach it ffs), so we were treated to another year of plodding up the gut instead, which didn't gain yards but each time at least gave the defense one less minute of being on the field lol.

Here's the thing with the QBs: except for going all the way back to Andrew Luck, and maybe you'd go back to Eli before him, they all have red flags entering the draft. Some more than others, no doubt, but there are no flawless prospects. They either have flaws in their game, some alarming statistic(s), didn't play against good enough competition, played with too-good teammates, and/or a combination of them. That doesn't therefore make them all the same, though. I think a lot of it stems from overanalysis of some overblown combine stuff that doesn't matter anyway.

So IMO just pick one whose film you like best & whose red flags worry you the least compared to others. If he stinks like Darnold then find out sooner rather than later and try again by drafting another one, unless there's a Tampa/Brady-like veteran opportunity. But I wouldn't compromise on the position unless the judgment is truly that they're all equal. The other problem is there's no way to know, absent hindsight, how low you can trade down and still get one you like well enough.

It's true some of the QBs who get drafted later do better than some drafted earlier, but there's no rule like that. It goes without saying that it's easier to break out on a good team than a bad one, but I think exceptions just stick out, and there's no proof-positive of chicken & egg as to which must come first to make a team good in the first place. 

I really don't think it'll be the necessary hardship as people think.

[JetBlue]

12 minutes ago, Paradis said:

You might be right... but they all have flaws. Some of it was warranted. It’s not like fields or Wilson are without blemish. h g

Agreed.  The best thing I have heard about Wilson so far is how he continued to get BETTER through out the year.  Some of the things that we consider as flaws were committed earlier in the year and were not repeated later in the season. That is one of the most important things to look for in a quarterback or a player in general.  One who learns from his mistakes, works on their weaknesses and improves as time goes on.  That is a trait you want in your franchise quarterback.       

[Sperm Edwards]

59 minutes ago, bitonti said:

yes that year they were healthy 

and this year, Fisher and Schwartz were hurt, LDT opted out to be a Dr in Canada and they lost the Super Bowl to a stacked Bucs team that used a top 15 pick at rookie right tackle 

the Ravens also missed Ronnie Stanley, the Titans missed Taylor Lewan. the story you're telling is how elite linemen get hurt and teams lose to healthier teams with better offensive lines. 

the Jets don't have a Fisher and Schwartz and a LDT

they have Becton and no one. FA didn't move the needle. This is the team. 

The Chiefs didn't have Schwartz all year long. All they had was Fisher and 4 nothings all worse than and lower investments than the Jets, and they made it to the Super Bowl.

If the 4 non-LTs were flipped the Chiefs wouldn't have been the disaster the 2020 Jets were. Moreover, you'd probably be using them as another example of a team that more properly invested in its OL than the Jets. 

Main differences? Their QB doesn't suck, their HC/OC didn't suck, and they didn't line up 5 new faces none of whom had played together before, and they weren't lining up the league's slowest RB either.

This year they'll have at least 3 starters returning in their roles, plus it'd be surprising to see them stay away from iOL with all their day 1-2 picks. Also a chance, however small, that they get a surprise as well (whether from an UDFA, a second/later pick, Clark who never saw the field last year, etc.). 

The second half line wasn't nearly as bad as the first half line, even with the shortcomings on it & around it & coaching it. 

I'd have preferred a sure-starter FA as well, but it's not going to be nearly as bad as you it make out to be. And since when am I the relative homer between the two of us? I don't even particularly like Douglas thus far, other than in comparison to Maccagnan. 

[RutgersJetFan]

5 hours ago, bitonti said:

The only draft pick that moves the needle this year is the one they are using on wilson 

Last year they had 9 draft picks only Becton and the punter were worth a damn. The draft is for the pipeline. Only truly bad teams expect the draft to solve immediate problems 

 

Chance Sewell slides to bottom 5? Pitts and the WR's are killing it. Have to believe Cinci is reconsidering things. 

[bitonti]

4 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

Chance Sewell slides to bottom 5? Pitts and the WR's are killing it. Have to believe Cinci is reconsidering things. 

there's a real sense Sewell is falling among the mock drafts to around the 8-10 area 

I like this player but I wouldn't bet money on him going top 5 based on internet buzz 

we shall see - his Pro day is in 2 days 

 

[bitonti]

10 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The Chiefs didn't have Schwartz all year long. All they had was Fisher and 4 nothings all worse than and lower investments than the Jets, and they made it to the Super Bowl.

If the 4 non-LTs were flipped the Chiefs wouldn't have been the disaster the 2020 Jets were. Moreover, you'd probably be using them as another example of a team that more properly invested in its OL than the Jets. 

Main differences? Their QB doesn't suck, their HC/OC didn't suck, and they didn't line up 5 new faces none of whom had played together before, and they weren't lining up the league's slowest RB either.

This year they'll have at least 3 starters returning in their roles, plus it'd be surprising to see them stay away from iOL with all their day 1-2 picks. Also a chance, however small, that they get a surprise as well (whether from an UDFA, a second/later pick, Clark who never saw the field last year, etc.). 

The second half line wasn't nearly as bad as the first half line, even with the shortcomings on it & around it & coaching it. 

I'd have preferred a sure-starter FA as well, but it's not going to be nearly as bad as you it make out to be. And since when am I the relative homer between the two of us? I don't even particularly like Douglas thus far, other than in comparison to Maccagnan. 

why are the Chiefs the model for success? The Bucs beat the Chiefs because no one could touch Tom Brady in the pocket, and they controlled the tempo with a running game. Leonard Fournette averaged 4.7 YPC in the postseason. 

The formula should be build the o-line then figure out the QB. Not bring in the young QB and have him learn under duress 

it's not even about the players like you are breaking them all down. It's building a program. What kind of program does Saleh want to build? If it's anything like SFO it's tough D and a playaction run first type of offense

If we have to talk in terms of KC - Pitts would be Travis Kelce and Devonta Smith is another Tyreek Hill 

it doesn't have to be Eric Fisher/Sewell. I just want the Jets to build a program before throwing their Mahomes to the wolves  

[Sperm Edwards]

10 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Last time the Jets had a great oline?  D'Brick and Mangold. 

Next best GM in this regard?  Idzik.

Like all positions, using high picks increases your chance of getting the best players.

Use high picks for the oline.

This is particularly important when you have totally neglected that position for years.

If we are going to use the 'you can get good players alter argument' you would never consider a guy like Pitts at all.

While the team has no QB, no I'm probably not considering Pitts, talented as he is. I'm less of a proponent of "find a QB later" than "find a guard later" (never mind "find a TE later"). Last time there was a gamechanger TE we absolutely had to take in/around the top 5 was in 2017. That game-changer, OJ Howard, has been a huge disappointment. I'm not at all saying Pitts will be; just that I've heard this before, and that since he's just a TE, anything less than a 5x all-pro is a disappointment to take one at #2. 

I agree Idzik did throw lots of mid/late rounders with the hopes of hitting on one starter, and did. He was nothing special, getting off to a slow start and bleh end, but he was at least average for years in between. He kinda hit on another, who's still playing, though he's been mostly a marginal starter. Still better than most 4th round picks.

The Jets don't need to do that unless they wait until round 3 to first draft an OLman in this draft. Even if they go QB at #2, presumably Douglas won't use #23 on a strong safety and then #33 on another position that can wait. I'm expecting QB-CB-G/C or QB-G/C-CB, and that's if he doesn't trade down from #23. 

Also as much as D'Brick and Mangold are mentioned, the last great Jets' OL had as many Jets 6th round/UDFA starters as it had Jets 1st rounders on it. The OL investment that year was King Ugly in round 2. 

Last, it may be splitting hairs but every guy you can get by with - including to the SB - isn't necessarily a good player individually. Difference between good and adequate-enough. 

[RutgersJetFan]

10 minutes ago, bitonti said:

there's a real sense Sewell is falling among the mock drafts to around the 8-10 area 

I like this player but I wouldn't bet money on him going top 5 based on internet buzz 

we shall see - his Pro day is in 2 days 

 

In a perfect world Pitts and Chase knock down Sewell to 8 and the Jets package Darnold/23 and a mid rounder to move up. If he's anywhere near 8-10 they have to capitalize. 

[Sperm Edwards]

5 minutes ago, bitonti said:

why are the Chiefs the model for success? The Bucs beat the Chiefs because no one could touch Tom Brady in the pocket, and they controlled the tempo with a running game. Leonard Fournette averaged 4.7 YPC in the postseason. 

The formula should be build the o-line then figure out the QB. Not bring in the young QB and have him learn under duress 

it's not even about the players like you are breaking them all down. It's building a program. What kind of program does Saleh want to build? If it's anything like SFO it's tough D and a playaction run first type of offense

If we have to talk in terms of KC - Pitts would be Travis Kelce and Devonta Smith is another Tyreek Hill 

it doesn't have to be Eric Fisher/Sewell. I just want the Jets to build a program before throwing their Mahomes to the wolves  

The Chiefs lost because they had all 5 of their OL men below with below average starters, after losing their second starting tackle in the championship game. I use them as an example because they're the norm rather than the exception. There's this myth that every good/championship team is using nothing but 1st rounders and mega-priced FAs on its line. Baseless and preposterous aren't even strong enough words to describe that.

You can keep moving the goalposts with your "arguments" all you want. The fact is they won a SB with 3/5 below-average OL starters, went to another SB with 4/5 below-average OL starters, and if Wilson sucks it'll be because he sucks not because omg omg this is the worstest offensive line eva. 

It's also convenient to note that neither Kelce nor Smith were high picks. They used two 1s on Mahomes and before that used 2 2s on Alex Smith. 

The real answer is Douglas has to hit on more than just 1st rounders or mega-priced FAs. If he can find a wow player or two in the mid rounds over a few year span it'll go a long way. If he's Maccagnan Part II where the only drafted above-average (or really, even average) starters of his come from round 1, then none of this matters anyway. 

[RogerVick1980]

I love Pitts but as someone said without a QB it means little..

If you think Wilson or whoever can be a franchise QB you take him no questions  asked..

You don’t wait a year to build a team and just assume a franchise QB will be available next year.

Look at who’s winning titles in today’s NFL it’s the great QB’s.

Look at the Niners they have the best  roster in the NFL but realize a decent or average QB isn’t gonna get you over the hump in today’s Qb driven NFL