Heavy debate within Jets org about going DL or OL at #4?

[Scoop24]

1 hour ago, Untouchable said:

LOL

Becton suffered this “6-8 week injury” over 6 months ago and his ass STILL isn’t going to be ready to practice in OTA’s?

Yeah, tremendous shape this guy is in…

Thats not that what he said at all. He said he doesn’t know when it come to OTA’s.. 

 

[Larz]

Let’s hope Saleh didn’t actually reveal anything that’s true 

that said it’s not surprising given the talent available and what the defense needs.  Hard to argue the offense needs Oline help more than wepinz but we don’t know what JD think’s of bectons workout videos 

Cooper was the miss not Hill. That still stings. 

JD would be sitting pretty if that was done. 

[chirorob]

1 hour ago, viffer said:

Do any of you really think Saleh or Douglas are going to tell any reporter what the team is REALLY planning to do in the draft? If he is that dumb then fire him immediately. Click bait.

Safety it is!!

[Biggs]

By heavy debate they mean how much does Becton weigh on the morning of the draft. 

[jamesr]

And therein lies the problem. We haven’t been able to do that because of Becton’s availability issues. 

So if we go OL, to me it signals that Becton is not in the future plans. There are no OG positions up for grabs where you can start a rookie for a year before they move outside.

Draft an OT and he's going to start. Fant is already going to start. Three players, only two chairs available.

Not saying this is a good plan or a bad plan. But having to move on from your first top pick that soon will be a very bad look - especially with the rest of that draft looking so poor already.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Alka]

1 hour ago, jamesr said:

If you are loaded on both OL and DL, the one to add to is DL. That's where you want a strong rotation. OL you want to keep the same 5 guys on the field the whole game.

Spare pass rushers is a good thing. Spare OL is OK for depth but is not what you want to spend premium draft resources on. IMHO.

Fant will be entering his final year of his deal.  I'm told they are working on a new deal, but a lot of time has eclipsed, and nothing has transpired in terms of a new deal, as far as I can tell.  Which tells me that the Jets might be okay with moving on from Fant if Fant doesn't want to accept what they think is fair, and Fant might want a big time contract.  My guess is Fant wants something in the line of what Tomlinson got, like a 3 year $40M deal.  My guess is the Jets are offering a 3 year $27M deal.  My guess is that both sides would be firm in their positions.  

If that's the case, then the Jets would be foolish not to draft a offensive tackle at #4.  First, without Moses from last season, the Jets don't have a legitimate backup if either Fant or Becton gets injured.  With Fant leaving after this season, the Jets would be scrambling once again to fill the spot vacated by Fant.  And what happens if Becton gets injured once again, even if he misses 4 or 5 games.  That is too much time to miss after the last 2 seasons, and would make the Jets seriously consider moving on from Becton and not giving him a new deal with Becton entering his 4th and final season after this coming season.

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Alka said:

Fant will be entering his final year of his deal.  I'm told they are working on a new deal, but a lot of time has eclipsed, and nothing has transpired in terms of a new deal, as far as I can tell.  Which tells me that the Jets might be okay with moving on from Fant if Fant doesn't want to accept what they think is fair, and Fant might want a big time contract.  My guess is Fant wants something in the line of what Tomlinson got, like a 3 year $40M deal.  My guess is the Jets are offering a 3 year $27M deal.  My guess is that both sides would be firm in their positions.  

If that's the case, then the Jets would be foolish not to draft a offensive tackle at #4.  First, without Moses from last season, the Jets don't have a legitimate backup if either Fant or Becton gets injured.  With Fant leaving after this season, the Jets would be scrambling once again to fill the spot vacated by Fant.  And what happens if Becton gets injured once again, even if he misses 4 or 5 games.  That is too much time to miss after the last 2 seasons, and would make the Jets seriously consider moving on from Becton and not giving him a new deal with Becton entering his 4th and final season after this coming season.

And douglas’ job depends on developing wilson.  Having an OL is more important than drafting a cb or s.

[Flightattendant]

 

1 minute ago, Augustiniak said:

And douglas’ job depends on developing wilson.  Having an OL is more important than drafting a cb or s.

You guys are making some sense.

 

Next question though.

If ekwonu and Neal are gone at 4 does dougy reach for cross? That's too big of a stretch for me personally.

[jamesr]

Fant will be entering his final year of his deal.  I'm told they are working on a new deal, but a lot of time has eclipsed, and nothing has transpired in terms of a new deal, as far as I can tell.  Which tells me that the Jets might be okay with moving on from Fant if Fant doesn't want to accept what they think is fair, and Fant might want a big time contract.  My guess is Fant wants something in the line of what Tomlinson got, like a 3 year $40M deal.  My guess is the Jets are offering a 3 year $27M deal.  My guess is that both sides would be firm in their positions.  
If that's the case, then the Jets would be foolish not to draft a offensive tackle at #4.  First, without Moses from last season, the Jets don't have a legitimate backup if either Fant or Becton gets injured.  With Fant leaving after this season, the Jets would be scrambling once again to fill the spot vacated by Fant.  And what happens if Becton gets injured once again, even if he misses 4 or 5 games.  That is too much time to miss after the last 2 seasons, and would make the Jets seriously consider moving on from Becton and not giving him a new deal with Becton entering his 4th and final season after this coming season.

I get where you're coming from on Fant, it's a valid point. I'm just not sure that we should be using the #4 draft pick to draft a replacement for a guy who's still under contract in 2022.

Drafting OT essentially makes you decide this year to move on from one of your two current starters. Feels like too much of a luxury when we have plenty of positions that genuinely need an upgrade, rather than a contingency plan.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Scoop24]

2 minutes ago, Alka said:

Fant will be entering his final year of his deal.  I'm told they are working on a new deal, but a lot of time has eclipsed, and nothing has transpired in terms of a new deal, as far as I can tell.  Which tells me that the Jets might be okay with moving on from Fant if Fant doesn't want to accept what they think is fair, and Fant might want a big time contract.  My guess is Fant wants something in the line of what Tomlinson got, like a 3 year $40M deal.  My guess is the Jets are offering a 3 year $27M deal.  My guess is that both sides would be firm in their positions.  

If that's the case, then the Jets would be foolish not to draft a offensive tackle at #4.  First, without Moses from last season, the Jets don't have a legitimate backup if either Fant or Becton gets injured.  With Fant leaving after this season, the Jets would be scrambling once again to fill the spot vacated by Fant.  And what happens if Becton gets injured once again, even if he misses 4 or 5 games.  That is too much time to miss after the last 2 seasons, and would make the Jets seriously consider moving on from Becton and not giving him a new deal with Becton entering his 4th and final season after this coming season.

Your right Fant wants a monster deal. Its gonna be his first big pay day. bur he isnt gonna take guard money.  Tominson contract wont be used as the barometer for his. Especially if he stay at LT and has another good season.

[Alka]

2 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

And douglas’ job depends on developing wilson.  Having an OL is more important than drafting a cb or s.

Damn right!  And they want to develop their cornerbacks from last year.  Bryce Hall, Michael Carter II, Echols are all players that deserve playing time, and the Jets brought in a solid CB in free agency to man the other side, so drafting a cornerback is not a reality in the first round in my opinion. 

My other point is that according to the draft experts, after Hutchinson and possibly Thibideau, there isn't any sure fire great edge rusher in this draft, and some have questioned both Hutch and Thibs as outright can't misses.  On the other hand, Evan Neal, Ekwonu and Cross are all touted as "can't miss" prospects, and are safer picks than any of the edge rushers.  Just more reasons to draft the offensive lineman in the #4 pick.

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, Alka said:

Damn right!  And they want to develop their cornerbacks from last year.  Bryce Hall, Michael Carter II, Echols are all players that deserve playing time, and the Jets brought in a solid CB in free agency to man the other side, so drafting a cornerback is not a reality in the first round in my opinion. 

My other point is that according to the draft experts, after Hutchinson and possibly Thibideau, there isn't any sure fire great edge rusher in this draft, and some have questioned both Hutch and Thibs as outright can't misses.  On the other hand, Evan Neal, Ekwonu and Cross are all touted as "can't miss" prospects, and are safer picks than any of the edge rushers.  Just more reasons to draft the offensive lineman in the #4 pick.

Yes, taking an OT at 4 probably also works from a BAP perspective too, where they can get the tackle they want for their system and also get probably as good of an edge at 10 as they can at 4.  This also plays into why they preferred to trade 2nd rounders for a wr.

[Chrebetfan80]

29 minutes ago, derp said:

“If you want an offensive lineman don’t wait until pick 13, Houston. Let a pass rusher slip to us.”

honestly dont think any of the top guys will drop to 13. 

ALOT of OL needy teams up there. 

Jets, Giants, Panthers, Atlanta, Seattle and even Washington all are in the mix for OL. Good Chance Cross, Neal, Ekwonu, Penning will all be gone.  Maybe Linderbaum is left. 

[OilfieldJet]

It's just too much risk to rely on Becton. I want him to come back and play well the entire year. I want him to excel. He may not. And if not, we risk another year in not knowing if Wilson is the guy. I'm not worried about drafting past. We need to give Wilson 1) protection, and 2) weapons. That's all that matters this year. We may be in the "find a QB" mode in 2023 (don't be surprised if we trade back in Round 1 to add a R1 selection next year). But we gotta find out. JD has to find out. If Wilson fails, he may last through 2023 - his job is at risk. So I think he can afford to lose 45-38, but can't afford to lose 17-10.

The decision is really at what position do we wait for the falling player to go Tier 2? Edge, WR or OL? I think there are better options at Edge in Tier 2 than at WR or OL.

I would be fine with both DL and OL in Round 1. Icky may well be off the table at #4. Cross? Maybe.

 

A strong OL also benefits the run game, which we could really use. Reduces 3 and outs, so many positives. Not thinking about adding OL means 1) you believe in Fant, a 1 year wonder that ended up injured, and 2) Some trust that Becton is coming back at strength. What if neither unfold? Like the other guys say above, what if we can't resign Fant? No Fant and no Becton = a poor OL. Again. No thanks.

[derp]

1 minute ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

honestly dont think any of the top guys will drop to 13. 

ALOT of OL needy teams up there. 

Jets, Giants, Panthers, Atlanta, Seattle and even Washington all are in the mix for OL. Good Chance Cross, Neal, Ekwonu, Penning will all be gone.  Maybe Linderbaum is left. 

Agree. Houston may not want an OL but if they do there’s a drop off to 13 anyway but very real chance there won’t even be a guy there.

[Alka]

11 minutes ago, Flightattendant said:

 

You guys are making some sense.

 

Next question though.

If ekwonu and Neal are gone at 4 does dougy reach for cross? That's too big of a stretch for me personally.

I think if both Ekwonu and Neal are gone, that means that the choice would come down to either Cross or Thibideau at #4.

If the Jets were to pick Thibs at #4, I would bet that Cross won't be there at #10.  Cross is a top 10 draft pick, especially would be the case in your scenario if both Neal and Ekwonu are gone going into the #4 pick. 

[Chrebetfan80]

Just now, derp said:

Agree. Houston may not want an OL but if they do there’s a drop off to 13 anyway but very real chance there won’t even be a guy there.

I just expect them to probably go OL,  if i'm them and hutchinson is gone at 1.  What realistically are you taking as the Texans?  I think they want to give mills the year at QB, They could go Walker or Thibs possibly but I think the value for them is on the OL.  To be able to grab Neal or Ekwonu there would be nice for them. 

[derp]

2 minutes ago, OilfieldJet said:

It's just too much risk to rely on Becton. I want him to come back and play well the entire year. I want him to excel. He may not. And if not, we risk another year in not knowing if Wilson is the guy. I'm not worried about drafting past. We need to give Wilson 1) protection, and 2) weapons. That's all that matters this year. We may be in the "find a QB" mode in 2023 (don't be surprised if we trade back in Round 1 to add a R1 selection next year). But we gotta find out. JD has to find out. If Wilson fails, he may last through 2023 - his job is at risk. So I think he can afford to lose 45-38, but can't afford to lose 17-10.

The decision is really at what position do we wait for the falling player to go Tier 2? Edge, WR or OL? I think there are better options at Edge in Tier 2 than at WR or OL.

I would be fine with both DL and OL in Round 1. Icky may well be off the table at #4. Cross? Maybe.

 

A strong OL also benefits the run game, which we could really use. Reduces 3 and outs, so many positives. Not thinking about adding OL means 1) you believe in Fant, a 1 year wonder that ended up injured, and 2) Some trust that Becton is coming back at strength. What if neither unfold? Like the other guys say above, what if we can't resign Fant? No Fant and no Becton = a poor OL. Again. No thanks.

The Jets picked up Morgan Moses in June of last year and he was more than adequate at the right tackle spot. They may not be able to pull that off again but there’s a pretty big gap between picking up a street free agent in June as an insurance policy and spending a top ten pick on an insurance policy. Especially when you’re talking about the OL where guys don’t rotate in. There has to be a middle ground. 

[Flightattendant]

1 minute ago, Alka said:

I think if both Ekwonu and Neal are gone, that means that the choice would come down to either Cross or Thibideau at #4.

If the Jets were to pick Thibs at #4, I would bet that Cross won't be there at #10.  Cross is a top 10 draft pick, especially would be the case in your scenario if both Neal and Ekwonu are gone going into the #4 pick. 

Yeah then at 10 it's REAL thin for Oline options. Let's hope that one of Neal or icky are available I guess.

[Scoop24]

4 minutes ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

honestly dont think any of the top guys will drop to 13. 

ALOT of OL needy teams up there. 

Jets, Giants, Panthers, Atlanta, Seattle and even Washington all are in the mix for OL. Good Chance Cross, Neal, Ekwonu, Penning will all be gone.  Maybe Linderbaum is left. 

People are starting to feel like Linderbaum is gonna fall to the 2nd . Due to positional value but also Alot of teams feel he is undersized 

[JTJet]

This is strategic...

[Augustiniak]

4 minutes ago, Alka said:

I think if both Ekwonu and Neal are gone, that means that the choice would come down to either Cross or Thibideau at #4.

If the Jets were to pick Thibs at #4, I would bet that Cross won't be there at #10.  Cross is a top 10 draft pick, especially would be the case in your scenario if both Neal and Ekwonu are gone going into the #4 pick. 

I agree and i can see them taking cross and just moving on.  Everything depends on protecting wilson, it is not a theoretical exercise where you cling to your draft board like mccagnan.  

[varjet]

I think people tend to focus more on what positions to draft rather than what players to draft.

I don't think there is any question that, ignoring position, JD would rather have Ekwonu on his roster, rather than Thib.  

JD needs to take the best players available to him (taking into account position value), and if he does not want that player, draft down and get more picks to take more best players.  Use FA, etc to fill the gaps.  

There seems to be 15 top 10 players in this draft.  That is a good thing.  

[92ShaunEllis92]

3 hours ago, Scoop24 said:

He specifically said he wants to add a Pass Rusher

 

Didn’t hurt the last time we committed to generating a fearsome pass rush:

Bookends for 1/2 a decade:

 

Get it DONE this draft!!!!

 

and this was the WR stud drafted in the 3rd round that year:

?

[Chrebetfan80]

20 minutes ago, Scoop24 said:

People are starting to feel like Linderbaum is gonna fall to the 2nd . Due to positional value but also Alot of teams feel he is undersized 

Anything is possible, I do think tape matters, so i still think he'll go in the first, just not top 10 like some people were talking about early on.  probably in the back half of the first.  

[92ShaunEllis92]

38 minutes ago, Flightattendant said:

 

You guys are making some sense.

 

Next question though.

If ekwonu and Neal are gone at 4 does dougy reach for cross? That's too big of a stretch for me personally.

He may be the best pass blocker (great feet which is key to this offensive blocking scheme - see 2022 version of Trent Williams in SF after his time off of field from injury) in this draft class of OLine with a higher cieling than the other OTs. Cross is my #1 OLine and true Passblocking LT worth a top 5 pick 

[jamesr]

Here's a question for the posters feeling we must draft OL in Round 1. What would honestly be so bad with starting Fant at LT and say a 3rd round draft pick or a FA pick up at RT? If we assume Becton is out and out toast, do we have to pick a RT at 4 or 10? Very few teams have 1st rounders at RT, and even fewer are Top 10 picks. 

Sure, Fant may want a better contract next year, and we may not wish to pay him that much ... but do we draft his potential replacement 18 months out? And at some point we have to pay someone a decent contract - why not have it be a LT?

[Alka]

9 minutes ago, jamesr said:

Here's a question for the posters feeling we must draft OL in Round 1. What would honestly be so bad with starting Fant at LT and say a 3rd round draft pick or a FA pick up at RT? If we assume Becton is out and out toast, do we have to pick a RT at 4 or 10? Very few teams have 1st rounders at RT, and even fewer are Top 10 picks. 

Sure, Fant may want a better contract next year, and we may not wish to pay him that much ... but do we draft his potential replacement 18 months out? And at some point we have to pay someone a decent contract - why not have it be a LT?

Because the quality of the offensive tackle position will be there at the #4 pick.  By picking a offensive tackle at #4, you are cementing the position for hopefully the next decade.  If as you say, we pick a right tackle in the 3rd round, well, we've done that before, and it didn't work out.  We drafted Edoga in the 3rd round a few years back, and it really turned out being a bad pick.  He has floundered at the position.  To get the real deal in the first round would be great, especially if the Jets will be moving on from Fant, and protecting the Jets against the thought of Becton getting injured again this year, and not having a worthy backup to insert at the position.

[jetstream23]

1 hour ago, jamesr said:

So if we go OL, to me it signals that Becton is not in the future plans. There are no OG positions up for grabs where you can start a rookie for a year before they move outside.

Not sure about that.  Even if Becton is here who are the starting OTs next season in 2023?  Fant will be a FA (no guarantee he's back), Morgan Moses is obviously gone.

 

1 hour ago, jamesr said:

Draft an OT and he's going to start. Fant is already going to start. Three players, only two chairs available.

Not saying this is a good plan or a bad plan. But having to move on from your first top pick that soon will be a very bad look - especially with the rest of that draft looking so poor already.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
 

 

How about trying to find the future RT for this team in the Draft this year, just like Tampa Bay did taking Wirfs at #13 in 2020, and let Becton and Fant duke it out for LT this year?  We'd then find out one of two things.... that Becton has righted his ship and he's the longterm LT (so we let Fant walk).  Or, Becton flops again, gets hurt, his weight prevents him from recovering quickly enough, etc. and we then confirm he can't be trusted as the longterm LT.  In that case we have to try to extend Fant or find a new LT (or maybe have already have one that we draft this year).

I just find it amazing that we as fans are not connecting these dots...

1. JD is absolutely infatuated with OL and OTs.  He also learned how quickly things can fall apart for this team when they're deficient (see the 2019 and 2020 seasons)

2. The Jets felt like they had a great OT situation last year with Becton, Fant and Moses.  Thank goodness they did because we needed that talented depth of having a third starter.

3. This year the Jets feel that they can't trust Becton 100% (he's a great talent but unreliable), Moses is gone (McDermott is the backup but he's not a guy you want playing 8+ games), and Fant has 1 year left on his contract.

This setup is quickly signaling a few things:  The Jets are one injury to Becton away from having George Fant hold JD hostage from a contract standpoint.  The Jets are one injury to George Fant away from NEEDING Becton to play all 17 games.  The Jets currently have one starting caliber OT (Becton) under contract for 2023.

People will hate hearing this but I believe it.... The Jets have a better and more stable depth chart at WR than OT.  The Jets now have a better depth chart at CB than they do at OT.  The condition of the Jets depth chart at Edge is similar to that of OT.  Yet I'd submit that of all 4 of those position groups the one we can least afford to have fall apart is OT.  It can torpedo the team, put the QB at risk, and kill both the passing and rushing game.

I'm not arguing that OT needs to be the pick at #4, but I think OT has to be a consideration for the Jets from the very start of the Draft.  Perhaps it's at #10?  Maybe it's a Right Tackle (or swing OT that is primarily a RT) in the early 2nd round?

 

[jetstream23]

32 minutes ago, jamesr said:

Here's a question for the posters feeling we must draft OL in Round 1. What would honestly be so bad with starting Fant at LT and say a 3rd round draft pick or a FA pick up at RT? If we assume Becton is out and out toast, do we have to pick a RT at 4 or 10? Very few teams have 1st rounders at RT, and even fewer are Top 10 picks. 

Sure, Fant may want a better contract next year, and we may not wish to pay him that much ... but do we draft his potential replacement 18 months out? And at some point we have to pay someone a decent contract - why not have it be a LT?

I think drafting a RT in Round 2 or 3, is feasible as I said above.  You certainly don't need to draft one in the 1st round, even if Tampa did with Wirfs and rode him to a Super Bowl.

[jamesr]

15 minutes ago, Alka said:

Because the quality of the offensive tackle position will be there at the #4 pick.  By picking a offensive tackle at #4, you are cementing the position for hopefully the next decade.  If as you say, we pick a right tackle in the 3rd round, well, we've done that before, and it didn't work out.  We drafted Edoga in the 3rd round a few years back, and it really turned out being a bad pick.  He has floundered at the position.  To get the real deal in the first round would be great, especially if the Jets will be moving on from Fant, and protecting the Jets against the thought of Becton getting injured again this year, and not having a worthy backup to insert at the position.

To play devil's advocate ... we drafted a LT in the first round two years ago and that didn't work out either.  

I guess my point is that you could end up with only 1 starting tackle this year, you could have 2, or you could end up with 3, depending on Becton + draft. Having 3 is nice depth / contingency, but nothing more. It doesn't add value to your team that goes on the field.

Should we draft a QB at #4 or #10 because Zach missed multiple games this year? (Hypothetical question, I know we won't, but the argument is kind of the same).

[doitny]

4 hours ago, The Crusher said:

Haha, so the guy who is supposedly and expert on building the offensive trenches lacks the confidence the build it from anything other then 1st round picks and free agents? Yeah, Damn

this is the post of the week!

we have no other Edge and cant rush the passer....

can anyone tell me who our 3rd LB is?

Joyner is our other Safety...

and Mims is an injury away from starting.......

oh and after MC1 we have no RBs...

and JD wants to draft an OL for a 3rd year in a row. he shouldnt even draft one in rd 2 this year.

what do you do with Becton? bench him? or trade him for a bag of donuts cause thats all hes worth now if you try to trade him. if he does Woody should fire him right after the draft. 

[jamesr]

3 minutes ago, doitny said:

this is the post of the week!

we have no other Edge and cant rush the passer....

can anyone tell me who our 3rd LB is?

Joyner is our other Safety...

and Mims is an injury away from starting.......

oh and after MC1 we have no RBs...

and JD wants to draft an OL for a 3rd year in a row. he shouldnt even draft one in rd 2 this year.

what do you do with Becton? bench him? or trade him for a bag of donuts cause thats all hes worth now if you try to trade him. if he does Woody should fire him right after the draft. 

[jago]

4 hours ago, Gastineau Lives said:

 

We now have two first rounders, a Pro Bowl guard, a decent center and a guy that graded out as one of the best pass blocking left tackles in football.

 

three of whom may be playing out of position according to other thread.

[doitny]

11 minutes ago, jamesr said:

i hope your right. this draft talk is driving me crazy. its like no one here pays attention to anything outside the Jets. no other team puts this much 1st rd draft capital on there OL but the guys on this board keep saying we have to. 

the less 1st rd picks you have on the OL the more you win. the more you have the more you lose!