Breece Hall & AVT - "Black Sunday" Brings Us Back To The Principal Issue

[THE BARON]

I've decided I'm going to refer to this last game as "Black Sunday".  Losing BH and AVT in one game is beyond bad,  It is downright cruel.

After absorbing this for a spell, it took me back to the issue that most of us were considering even before the season started.  That being, QB.

As amazing has BH has been, he none the less still occupies the position of RB circa 2022.  We all know how much the 2022 NFL values ball carriers.  And, there is justification for that position no longer being valued as it was several decades ago when the centerpiece of an NFL offense was the ball carrier.

AVT has also been fantastic, even when moved to the outside.  Regardless,  he was drafted as an interior lineman and will do his best work on the inside.  Once again. few teams if any are drafting interior lineman very high in the draft.  Even fewer are putting much cap space into their interior offensive line.

We, all of us know that the tasks of passing the ball and preventing the other team from doing the same is the way a contemporary NFL team goes with the the grain as dictated by the rules.  Any other general strategy is nothing short of adopting the methods of swimming against the current.  It is a flawed doctrine.  One that puts a team at a disadvantage before they even take the field.

Considering this, we see teams dedicating generous cap space to the appropriate positions.  LT, CB, Edge Rushers and, above all...

QB

Losing BH and AVT is only a season killer in the sense that it brings the Jets paramount obstacle back into focus...

QB.

The Jet offense was leaning on the running game and showcasing the brilliant skills of BH as a save for the lack of production at the prime NFL position...

QB.

And, now that the Jets will be taking on a team with a coach that is well known to confound shaky QB's.  And, they will be doing so without the assistance of BH.  Now, we'll get even closer to the all encompassing problem of not having a bona fied franchise...

QB

Again... It hurts to lose BH and AVT, but with medical technology and the apparent work ethic of those two splendid players, I'm confident that we'll see them back next season and after some time on the field, back to top form.  But, the Jets will still be lacking a...

QB

THAT is what Jets fans should *REALLY* be worried about.  There wont be any problem for me watching Wilson get further exposed this Sunday.  I just hope the GM is watching and planning.   2023 draft will be here around the same time that BH and AVT will be well on their way back.

[Ken Schroy]

So what is your conclusion/solution?

[oatmeal]

Yeah the QB and WRs need to really step it the F up

[Scott Dierking]

Just now, oatmeal said:

Yeah the QB and WRs need to really step it the F up

Worrying about these things will apparently help. I plan on worrying enough for 2 people.

[SuicidalSince98]

Breece hall proved to be worth a top 5 pick. Kid is going to be in the ring of honor for us 

[Irish Jet]

Remember Garrett Wilson?

Good times.

[THE BARON]

3 minutes ago, Ken Schroy said:

So what is your conclusion/solution?

JD has to admit that ZW was a bad pick and start researching the QB's that will be available in the 2023 draft.  He had bad picks with Becton and Wilson that many had on their "do not draft" list, but since then, JD has had a hot hand.  It is understandable that JD reached for Zach Wilson in his first year as Jet's GM.  They needed a QB and there was some reasonable substance to the hope that ZW's great physical skills that we saw at BYU would transition to the NFL.  It was a reach, but not such a bad one.  

Now, we can all see that ZW is not going to be a good NFL QB.  This coming NE game will be good for the Jets in general.  Without Hall, they will doubtless look to rely on passing a bit more.  Against BB, Wilson's issues will only be magnified.  I'm HOPING it will help JD resign himself to moving on and throw himself into extending his recent hot hand with the drat into 2023 with the QB being his next master stroke

[rangerous]

8 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

I've decided I'm going to refer to this last game as "Black Sunday".  Losing BH and AVT in one game is beyond bad,  It is downright cruel.

After absorbing this for a spell, it took me back to the issue that most of us were considering even before the season started.  That being, QB.

As amazing has BH has been, he none the less still occupies the position of RB circa 2022.  We all know how much the 2022 NFL values ball carriers.  And, there is justification for that position no longer being valued as it was several decades ago when the centerpiece of an NFL offense was the ball carrier.

AVT has also been fantastic, even when moved to the outside.  Regardless,  he was drafted as an interior lineman and will do his best work on the inside.  Once again. few teams if any are drafting interior lineman very high in the draft.  Even fewer are putting much cap space into their interior offensive line.

We, all of us know that the tasks of passing the ball and preventing the other team from doing the same is the way a contemporary NFL team goes with the the grain as dictated by the rules.  Any other general strategy is nothing short of adopting the methods of swimming against the current.  It is a flawed doctrine.  One that puts a team at a disadvantage before they even take the field.

Considering this, we see teams dedicating generous cap space to the appropriate positions.  LT, CB, Edge Rushers and, above all...

QB

Losing BH and AVT is only a season killer in the sense that it brings the Jets paramount obstacle back into focus...

QB.

The Jet offense was leaning on the running game and showcasing the brilliant skills of BH as a save for the lack of production at the prime NFL position...

QB.

And, not that the Jets will be taking on a team with a coach that is well known to confound shaky QB's and will be doing so without the assistance of BH, we'll get even closer to the all encompassing problem of not having a bona fied franchise...

QB

Again... It hurts to lose BH and AVT, but with medical technology and the apparent work ethic of those to splendid players, I'm confident that we'll see them back next season and after some time on the field, back to top form.  But, the Jets will still be lacking a...

QB

THAT is what Jets fans should *REALLY* be worried about.  There wont be any problem for me watching Wilson get further exposed this Sunday.  I just hope the GM is watching and planning.   2023 draft will be here around the same time that BH and AVT will be well on their way back.

true enough, wilson hasn't shown any fqb ability beyond the 4th qtr of the steelers game but would anyone rather see white or flacco in their?  maybe flacco would be able to get the ball off quicker and be more decisive but the way the oline pass blocks, he'd get knocked down more than a few times.  same thing with white.  wilson is the guy.  he needs to get the ball out quicker and that can be helped by play design.  negate the pass rush with more screens or quick slants.  moore may not like it but it will help wilson play better.

[Sperm Edwards]

I think it helps illustrate why using an upper 1st rounder on a RB is so dicey. No one doubts Hall's talent, like no one doubted it from Barkley, Peterson, and others. The thing is this sport is so tough, particularly on RBs who already have shorter careers, that it's double the risk (on top of the risk of just drafting a bust no matter how highly touted). I was pretty comfortable with the pick - really, picks - used on Hall because the team had so many picks in such a short window, and were in particular need of another playmaker around their young QB, both to take further pressure off him, in theory, and to just ride when he was off in general.

Most RBs are products of their OLs. We'd see a healthy Thomas Jones or Curtis Martin finish around 3.5ypc for the season and in a different year average a full yard more than that. When the hole just isn't there, even successful bellcow backs get stuffed. The smaller ones who change directions like a jackrabbit are also often the smaller types you can't give 20 touches to per game.

Naming the day aside, this just blows, though. Hall looked like an electric talent even without an elite QB or elite OL 5-across; and AVT a real rock on the line, no matter where he played (which says plenty itself). They're retooling with others who'll hopefully shine enough to still win games, even if as individuals they expectedly fall short of the way-high bar set by Hall & AVT.

[Larz]

Backfill Tuesday reminds us JD isn’t crying in his milk, he’s getting guys in here 

5-2 doesn’t happen often and he’s not sleeping this time. 

[TuscanyTile2]

20 minutes ago, Ken Schroy said:

So what is your conclusion/solution?

http://www.tankathon.com/nfl

[Lurker89]

19 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

This coming NE game will be good for the Jets in general.  Without Hall, they will doubtless look to rely on passing a bit more.  Against BB, Wilson's issues will only be magnified. 

Fields just struggle f***ed the s*** out of this BB team. If Zach looks the same as he has against top end pass Ds, when he plays a Pats D thats quickly running out of safties, press the big red button.

[THE BARON]

18 minutes ago, rangerous said:

true enough, wilson hasn't shown any fqb ability beyond the 4th qtr of the steelers game but would anyone rather see white or flacco in their?  maybe flacco would be able to get the ball off quicker and be more decisive but the way the oline pass blocks, he'd get knocked down more than a few times.  same thing with white.  wilson is the guy.  he needs to get the ball out quicker and that can be helped by play design.  negate the pass rush with more screens or quick slants.  moore may not like it but it will help wilson play better.

Whatever they can do now would just be a stop-gap,  JD needs to do his research to make the right call on the qb's in the 2023 draft.  If he is not sold on any of them, then, he needs to find a place holder vet that he can win with and further develop the offense until the 2024 draft.  NOTHING will work to an ideal until they have a QB.

[THE BARON]

12 minutes ago, Larz said:

Backfill Tuesday reminds us JD isn’t crying in his milk, he’s getting guys in here 

5-2 doesn’t happen often and he’s not sleeping this time. 

100 % agree.  JD is smart, fast and dynamic.  I totally discount Wilson and Becton mistakes. JD has the tools.  He is not letting the season go down up the spout.  I feel confident that he shows his smarts with the QB comes 2023 draft

[THE BARON]

14 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

http://www.tankathon.com/nfl

They dont have to tank for the 2023 draft QB grab.  There will be good ones all the way down.  Later on in the season, I will start a thread about the 2023 QB prospects.  As of right now, I see a few nice QB prospects other than Stroud and Young.  Those two will probably wind up going as the two first QBs taken in the 2023 draft but there are several other promising talents that I think would make good NFL QB's.  JD needs to use all his powers and skills and get the right guy.  

[LIJetsFan]

Ok OP so the take is that JD should be looking to find good players now and in the future.  Thanks for the insight!

As for me I'm just going to enjoy the season and let JD worry about GMing.  JD is the best thing that has happened to this team in decades.  What say we all just relax.  

[Biggs]

How about letting the season play out.  So many of we don't have a QB crowd including myself thought the Jets were going to be at best 1 and 6 or 2 and 5 going into the Pats and Bills game.

Right now if you take out the 3 or 4 elite NFL teams the Jets have been in the next group.   We are in the hunt for a playoff game.  We are going into November 6 and 2 or 5 and 3.  JD isn't giving up on the season.  Zach is still a young QB with upside.  

We likely aren't going to have a top 10 or 15 pick next year.  There aren't going to be high caliber NFL QB's available through trade.  Ryan, Wilson and Wentz and Trubisky look like dumpster fires right now. 

[THE BARON]

4 minutes ago, LIJetsFan said:

Ok OP so the take is that JD should be looking to find good players now and in the future.  Thanks for the insight!

With all due respect, I think you missed the substance of the post.  Losing Hall and AVT hurts, but it also serves to shed light on the prime issue facing the Jets.  The issue that did not go away even when Hall was doing his best work.

The Jets need a QB.  

[slats]

37 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

JD has to admit that ZW was a bad pick and start researching the QB's that will be available in the 2023 draft.  He had bad picks with Becton and Wilson that many had on their "do not draft" list, but since then, JD has had a hot hand.  It is understandable that JD reached for Zach Wilson in his first year as Jet's GM.  They needed a QB and there was some reasonable substance to the hope that ZW's great physical skills that we saw at BYU would transition to the NFL.  It was a reach, but not such a bad one.  

Now, we can all see that ZW is not going to be a good NFL QB.  This coming NE game will be good for the Jets in general.  Without Hall, they will doubtless look to rely on passing a bit more.  Against BB, Wilson's issues will only be magnified.  I'm HOPING it will help JD resign himself to moving on and throw himself into extending his recent hot hand with the drat into 2023 with the QB being his next master stroke

He’s not drafting a QB high next year. 

[tommyduhamelshouse]

principle

[THE BARON]

7 minutes ago, Biggs said:

How about letting the season play out.  So many of we don't have a QB crowd including myself thought the Jets were going to be at best 1 and 6 or 2 and 5 going into the Pats and Bills game.

Right now if you take out the 3 or 4 elite NFL teams the Jets have been in the next group.   We are in the hunt for a playoff game.  We are going into November 6 and 2 or 5 and 3.  JD isn't giving up on the season.  Zach is still a young QB with upside.  

We likely aren't going to have a top 10 or 15 pick next year.  There aren't going to be high caliber NFL QB's available through trade.  Ryan, Wilson and Wentz and Trubisky look like dumpster fires right now. 

The Jets beat damaged teams.  They wont beat good ones.  Winning a few games is nice, but I want the Jets to be made to best quality teams in the post season. 

[THE BARON]

1 minute ago, slats said:

He’s not drafting a QB high next year. 

Can you expand on that ?

[Barry McCockinner]

It looks like Zach ain't it but no one will question his physical attributes and athleticism. QBs need to be developed and if you can develop one while you're relying on defense, running and special teams to win games, that's a luxury.

I forget who said it but basically you can break QB's into 3 buckets today. 

• QB's you win because of
• QB's you can win with
• QB's you lose because of

Zach so far this season has been clearly in the QB's you can win with bucket. You have to try and develop him into the QB's you win because of bucket. That's only going to happen with playing more.

[Jetluv58]

55 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

I've decided I'm going to refer to this last game as "Black Sunday".  Losing BH and AVT in one game is beyond bad,  It is downright cruel.

After absorbing this for a spell, it took me back to the issue that most of us were considering even before the season started.  That being, QB.

As amazing has BH has been, he none the less still occupies the position of RB circa 2022.  We all know how much the 2022 NFL values ball carriers.  And, there is justification for that position no longer being valued as it was several decades ago when the centerpiece of an NFL offense was the ball carrier.

AVT has also been fantastic, even when moved to the outside.  Regardless,  he was drafted as an interior lineman and will do his best work on the inside.  Once again. few teams if any are drafting interior lineman very high in the draft.  Even fewer are putting much cap space into their interior offensive line.

We, all of us know that the tasks of passing the ball and preventing the other team from doing the same is the way a contemporary NFL team goes with the the grain as dictated by the rules.  Any other general strategy is nothing short of adopting the methods of swimming against the current.  It is a flawed doctrine.  One that puts a team at a disadvantage before they even take the field.

Considering this, we see teams dedicating generous cap space to the appropriate positions.  LT, CB, Edge Rushers and, above all...

QB

Losing BH and AVT is only a season killer in the sense that it brings the Jets paramount obstacle back into focus...

QB.

The Jet offense was leaning on the running game and showcasing the brilliant skills of BH as a save for the lack of production at the prime NFL position...

QB.

And, not that the Jets will be taking on a team with a coach that is well known to confound shaky QB's and will be doing so without the assistance of BH, we'll get even closer to the all encompassing problem of not having a bona fied franchise...

QB

Again... It hurts to lose BH and AVT, but with medical technology and the apparent work ethic of those to splendid players, I'm confident that we'll see them back next season and after some time on the field, back to top form.  But, the Jets will still be lacking a...

QB

THAT is what Jets fans should *REALLY* be worried about.  There wont be any problem for me watching Wilson get further exposed this Sunday.  I just hope the GM is watching and planning.   2023 draft will be here around the same time that BH and AVT will be well on their way back.

5-2 and just worried and miserable. It’s a habit.

[Biggs]

1 minute ago, THE BARON said:

With all due respect, I think you missed the substance of the post.  Losing Hall and AVT hurts, but it also serves to shed light on the prime issue facing the Jets.  The issue that did not go away even when Hall was doing his best work.

The Jets need a QB.  

The Jets have a QB.  He's in year 2 along with the coaching staff including a first time OC who has never called plays at the NFL level before.  

Just because Zach doesn't pass your eye test to date doesn't mean he's not a potential high caliber NFL starter.  

Before this winniing streak I was firmly in the camp that the coaching staff was an inexperienced pile of dog sh*t.  Ulbritch wasn't even a high functioning monkey, let alone a human being with the capacity to manage an NFL Defense.  

Zach was a complete pussey who wouldn't last a weak against a top 25 D let alone a couple of top 5 NFL D's.  

Lefleur up until last year never called plays at the NFL level and was never an OC.  Most of the young talent on this team is in year 1 or year 2 including the QB.

With all due respect just because you think the Jets need a QB to solve the problem of why the Jets currently have one of the best records in football doesn't make it so.  It's an opinion that's based on a very small sample size, not a fact.

[THE BARON]

2 minutes ago, Jetluv58 said:

5-2 and just worried and miserable. It’s a habit.

Neither worried or miserable.  Quote the contrary.  I see a good team taking shape, but one without a QB.  That is a concern and it should be for all Jets fans. 

[doitny]

19 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

  He is not letting the season go down up the spout. 

will he? what if 5-2 turns into 5-4 does he still ride and die with Zach? does he let the playoffs slip away cause he needs to see more of Zach? 

right now the way he is playing Flacco or White could do better.

[Darnold Schwarzenegger]

Made a similar post last night. Jd must admit that ZW was a mistake and either draft a qb this off season or at least sign a competent replacement. 

ZW gets the rest of the season to try and prove he is the guy of the future. But the sooner JD turns the page the better. Don’t delay the inevitable. Be proactive about it. The team he built is good. The qb is not

[Biggs]

7 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

The Jets beat damaged teams.  They wont beat good ones.  Winning a few games is nice, but I want the Jets to be made to best quality teams in the post season. 

There are 3 or 4 "Good Teams" in this league.  A league that intentionally penalizes good teams and helps crappy teams with a cap and draft postion.  Who are these mythical great teams we face?   The Bills twice and who else?

[LIJetsFan]

15 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

The Jets beat damaged teams.  They wont beat good ones.  Winning a few games is nice, but I want the Jets to be made to best quality teams in the post season. 

You gotta be in it to win it.  Right now we're in it.  How about we just enjoy the ride!  

[THE BARON]

9 minutes ago, Biggs said:

The Jets have a QB.  He's in year 2 along with the coaching staff including a first time OC who has never called plays at the NFL level before.  

 

I dig,  You are not ready to pull the plug and I am.  

[THE BARON]

Just now, LIJetsFan said:

You gotta be in it to win it.  Right now we're in it.  How about we just enjoy the ride!  

I want a longer ride next year and the year after that and so on.  Meaning, I want a bona fied franchise qb.  

[slimjasi]

14 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

It looks like Zach ain't it but no one will question his physical attributes and athleticism. QBs need to be developed and if you can develop one while you're relying on defense, running and special teams to win games, that's a luxury.

I forget who said it but basically you can break QB's into 3 buckets today. 

• QB's you win because of
• QB's you can win with
• QB's you lose because of

Zach so far this season has been clearly in the QB's you can win with bucket. You have to try and develop him into the QB's you win because of bucket. That's only going to happen with playing more.

Good summary 

[THE BARON]

10 minutes ago, doitny said:

will he? what if 5-2 turns into 5-4 does he still ride and die with Zach? does he let the playoffs slip away cause he needs to see more of Zach? 

right now the way he is playing Flacco or White could do better.

possibly, yes.  i agree

[Biggs]

Just now, THE BARON said:

I dig,  You are not ready to pull the plug and I am.  

No I'm ready to watch Jets games every week and see how the season unfolds.  To my surprise the Jets are going to be in playoff position on November 1st with Zach Wilson at QB. 

It's pretty clear if we kept going with Flacco the Jets would not be relevant on November 1st.