So now LaFleur is the problem, huh.

[football guy]

It's unfair to paint LaFleur as the problem, but he contributes to some of the frustrations we're seeing boil over. The lack of in-game adjustments combined with dramatic differences in the passing gameplan/personnel usage has been an issue amongst the skill position groups, but also Saleh and the front office. Saleh, specifically, believes in simplicity so that players can think less and play more explosive, whereas LaFleur is more committed to identifying and attacking defensive weaknesses, which is why we see these weekly changes to how they try to attack defenses in the air. Saleh wants the offense to be easier and to commit to certain philosophies, so one of the major changes expected is that Saleh will be more involved in overseeing the weekly offensive gameplan --- lets call it "theme" --- going forward. 

As far as what happens moving forward. The rumor I have heard is that LaFleur wants Mike White to get an opportunity to run his offense. I'm not convinced Saleh is in his corner, and if he were, its likely more of a temporary measure/punishment for Zach's attitude post-game (reports of him "walking around like it wasn't his fault" are greatly exaggerated, but he was ***pissed*** after the game and was reluctant to recap things with LaFleur). I get that there were differences on the game-plan and there was a desire to change things up, but even if the wind is an issue that can't be the hill you die on as a player. It's concerning that Zach let so many things get in his head this week, and it's also concerning that he's letting his emotions get the best of him. He was mad, but the media response after the first NE game is the reason why he's been so snappy; according to his PR team, he has a real distain for Connor Hughes. Their take is that Connor has been a suck up ever since Zach arrived here and used the first loss as an opportunity to unfairly character assassinated him (again, this is Zach's perspective not mine) by labelling him as selfish and immature and entitled after the first NE loss. Fair, unfair, or otherwise, what Zach doesn't seem to realize that his tone and comment in his past few interactions with the media basically validates their criticisms of him on the surface. 

There's a lot to unpack with the Zach Wilson situation and while I am sure the team is not ready to give up on him, I would be remiss to ignore some of the red flags. I get that Zach is doing what he's being told to do; I get that he's playing within the gameplan even if that does in some ways "neuter" the passing game. As a player, your job is to execute the way its called. Even if its not perfect, the excuse making is concerning. He either has to take the offense by the balls and make it his own, or he's going to be on the bench. 

[rangerous]

4 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Receivers open all over the place on Sunday.  The doofus QB is just incapable of getting it to them.  Simple as that.

yep.  the tape bears this out.  and it also looked like wilson had more than enough time to throw.  many times his throws were late or indecisive.

[peekskill68]

3 minutes ago, football guy said:

As far as what happens moving forward. The rumor I have heard is that LaFleur wants Mike White to get an opportunity to run his offense. I'm not convinced Saleh is in his corner, and if he were, its likely more of a temporary measure/punishment for Zach's attitude post-game (reports of him "walking around like it wasn't his fault" are greatly exaggerated, but he was ***pissed*** after the game and was reluctant to recap things with LaFleur). I get that there were differences on the game-plan and there was a desire to change things up, but even if the wind is an issue that can't be the hill you die on as a player. It's concerning that Zach let so many things get in his head this week, and it's also concerning that he's letting his emotions get the best of him. He was mad, but the media response after the first NE game is the reason why he's been so snappy; according to his PR team, he has a real distain for Connor Hughes. Their take is that Connor has been a suck up ever since Zach arrived here and used the first loss as an opportunity to unfairly character assassinated him (again, this is Zach's perspective not mine) by labelling him as selfish and immature and entitled after the first NE loss. Fair, unfair, or otherwise, what Zach doesn't seem to realize that his tone and comment in his past few interactions with the media basically validates their criticisms of him on the surface. 

Connor Hughes is all about Connor Hughes.  He's whoring clicks by the thousands escalating this Zach Wilson mess.  JMO...

[TBJ]

The Jets used to be the problem, now Zach Wilson is the problem.

Moronic pick.

[C Mart]

12 minutes ago, football guy said:

It's unfair to paint LaFleur as the problem, but he contributes to some of the frustrations we're seeing boil over. The lack of in-game adjustments combined with dramatic differences in the passing gameplan/personnel usage has been an issue amongst the skill position groups, but also Saleh and the front office. Saleh, specifically, believes in simplicity so that players can think less and play more explosive, whereas LaFleur is more committed to identifying and attacking defensive weaknesses, which is why we see these weekly changes to how they try to attack defenses in the air. Saleh wants the offense to be easier and to commit to certain philosophies, so one of the major changes expected is that Saleh will be more involved in overseeing the weekly offensive gameplan --- lets call it "theme" --- going forward. 

As far as what happens moving forward. The rumor I have heard is that LaFleur wants Mike White to get an opportunity to run his offense. I'm not convinced Saleh is in his corner, and if he were, its likely more of a temporary measure/punishment for Zach's attitude post-game (reports of him "walking around like it wasn't his fault" are greatly exaggerated, but he was ***pissed*** after the game and was reluctant to recap things with LaFleur). I get that there were differences on the game-plan and there was a desire to change things up, but even if the wind is an issue that can't be the hill you die on as a player. It's concerning that Zach let so many things get in his head this week, and it's also concerning that he's letting his emotions get the best of him. He was mad, but the media response after the first NE game is the reason why he's been so snappy; according to his PR team, he has a real distain for Connor Hughes. Their take is that Connor has been a suck up ever since Zach arrived here and used the first loss as an opportunity to unfairly character assassinated him (again, this is Zach's perspective not mine) by labelling him as selfish and immature and entitled after the first NE loss. Fair, unfair, or otherwise, what Zach doesn't seem to realize that his tone and comment in his past few interactions with the media basically validates their criticisms of him on the surface. 

There's a lot to unpack with the Zach Wilson situation and while I am sure the team is not ready to give up on him, I would be remiss to ignore some of the red flags. I get that Zach is doing what he's being told to do; I get that he's playing within the gameplan even if that does in some ways "neuter" the passing game. As a player, your job is to execute the way its called. Even if its not perfect, the excuse making is concerning. He either has to take the offense by the balls and make it his own, or he's going to be on the bench. 

Bart Scott & Willie Colon labeled Zach that last year after whatever loss it was when Zach tried to run a QB sneak at the goal line from 2-3 yards out

[genot]

12 minutes ago, football guy said:

It's unfair to paint LaFleur as the problem, but he contributes to some of the frustrations we're seeing boil over. The lack of in-game adjustments combined with dramatic differences in the passing gameplan/personnel usage has been an issue amongst the skill position groups, but also Saleh and the front office. Saleh, specifically, believes in simplicity so that players can think less and play more explosive, whereas LaFleur is more committed to identifying and attacking defensive weaknesses, which is why we see these weekly changes to how they try to attack defenses in the air. Saleh wants the offense to be easier and to commit to certain philosophies, so one of the major changes expected is that Saleh will be more involved in overseeing the weekly offensive gameplan --- lets call it "theme" --- going forward. 

As far as what happens moving forward. The rumor I have heard is that LaFleur wants Mike White to get an opportunity to run his offense. I'm not convinced Saleh is in his corner, and if he were, its likely more of a temporary measure/punishment for Zach's attitude post-game (reports of him "walking around like it wasn't his fault" are greatly exaggerated, but he was ***pissed*** after the game and was reluctant to recap things with LaFleur). I get that there were differences on the game-plan and there was a desire to change things up, but even if the wind is an issue that can't be the hill you die on as a player. It's concerning that Zach let so many things get in his head this week, and it's also concerning that he's letting his emotions get the best of him. He was mad, but the media response after the first NE game is the reason why he's been so snappy; according to his PR team, he has a real distain for Connor Hughes. Their take is that Connor has been a suck up ever since Zach arrived here and used the first loss as an opportunity to unfairly character assassinated him (again, this is Zach's perspective not mine) by labelling him as selfish and immature and entitled after the first NE loss. Fair, unfair, or otherwise, what Zach doesn't seem to realize that his tone and comment in his past few interactions with the media basically validates their criticisms of him on the surface. 

There's a lot to unpack with the Zach Wilson situation and while I am sure the team is not ready to give up on him, I would be remiss to ignore some of the red flags. I get that Zach is doing what he's being told to do; I get that he's playing within the gameplan even if that does in some ways "neuter" the passing game. As a player, your job is to execute the way its called. Even if its not perfect, the excuse making is concerning. He either has to take the offense by the balls and make it his own, or he's going to be on the bench. 

If what you say is true. Then three cheers to LaFleur  White is much more capable of running his scheme. He's more accurate and makes quicker decisions with the football. He's not the runner that Wilson is, but he very well be more mobile when he's in the pocket

[MARTIN]

Connor is certainly a tool, which is exactly why he makes a good beat writer. Doesn't matter. That's his job. Him doing his job, doesn't alleviate Zach from doing his. Worth mentioning it was apparent ZW wasn't actually thinking before answering the last questions, he just wanted out of the press conference (understandable feeling). The response "no" was simply him talking before thinking on the last media question/follow up. He didn't listen, think, collect himself and represent himself with a good answer. Blown out of proportion perhaps, but it may just be an accurate assessment of who he is. Either way, he is a dude who is playing QB sooo poorly and also not even being a leader. That cant happen any more.

Zach has been so inept that we are now having to frame conversations about him, in terms of the specific errors around him on a play to play basis. I do typically fall in line with:

"noone outside the building knows what they are talking about" - ZW/HC

....but context is needed.

Fans/Media trying to breakdown film? i get it. We dont know how things are taught/ran in this offense. I dont always trust this specific of an item.

But when we are talking about a sample size of ALL zachs plays/press conferences/practices/habits/college tape, etc, its hard for me to allow the bevy of excuses, reasons, context in order to give this kid a chance. If he was playing middle of the pack, and costing us games due to turnovers... different story. If our team was weak around him, different story. But given the totality of it all, i can't keep looking at it with Gotham Green colored lenses. 

Zach has no business being a starting QB right now.  He is doing exactly what a lot of scouts/analyists saw as his likely future in the NFL predraft.

[Maynard13]

4 hours ago, Gibby said:

I had issues with the game he called Sunday- especially how he attacked press man with a terrified young quarterback. But no- definitely not the problem. He’s actually been creative and think he’s done a pretty decent job overall 

Its like LaFleur reverted back to grammar school this past Sunday.  Those stupid calls all game long had Zach questioning himself and he continued to lose confidence.  Just brutal play calling.  Why didn't LaFleur just call a few go routes and have Zach toss it up the sidelines and see if Mims could pull a few down or get PI on Pats defenders. It worked once and yet they abandoned that.  If you're not moving the ball, take a few shots deep. What's the worse that can happen? An INT? Its as good as a punt. 

[football guy]

5 minutes ago, peekskill68 said:

Connor Hughes is all about Connor Hughes.  He's whoring clicks by the thousands escalating this Zach Wilson mess.  JMO...

Part of the problem but what’s a bigger one is the blame game between ZW, the receivers, and MLF. Zach feels he does everything LaFleur asks of him, and when things go wrong he’s scapegoated for it. The receivers feel they’re unfairly pigeonholed and not properly utilized. LaFleur feels the players have to buy into his gameplan and execute it how it’s called. 

This is a situation where having some veteran coaches on offense would probably smooth things over. Instead Saleh is going to step in.

[sciond]

They should stick ZW in the booth.....

actually anywhere but the field....

[Sonny Werblin]

IMO one of the reasons Zach doesn't pull the trigger and pass to receivers that are NFL open and even LFL open is because he is afraid to make mistakes. Why? Because they've drilled into him that if he doesn't make turnovers, the team will win. Well, they had zero turnovers and lost. So lets put that to bed.

The other reason is that he doesn't see the open receiver. 

I have no idea as to the ratio of open receivers he sees and does not see on the non-throws. But, he clearly is eye-balling some of them. So it is safe to say on some number of these plays he sees the open receiver but chooses not to attempt the pass. 

I'm currently of the opinion that Wilson is not an NFL QB and needs to prove otherwise in the time he has left. During this time, he needs to be told, he is playing for his future and mistakes are sometimes OK, so long as the play you are trying to make is a smart play and not a horse's ass throw into coverage after you've done three pirouettes and run 18 yards backwards. So, get your feet right, step the **** up in the pocket and throw the damned ball with authority and conviction because you are playing for your NFL life. 

Maybe he'll succeed. He probably wont (based on the fact that few do). But, at least we can turn the page and move on after this season. 

[#27TheDominator]

I don't understand how this board can pretend that "drilling it into him not to make mistakes" is a negative.  He's not supposed to make mistakes.  He made some really, really, really dumb ones and it cost us a game.  The fact that he puts his tail between his legs and holds the ball "so he doesn't make mistakes" is on him, not the ******* OC.  Throw the ******* ball.  That's your job.  Throw it to the right guy.  Don't throw it to the guy in the other colored jersey.  It's not that ******* difficult.  It's like Sanchez and the red light, green light, one, two, three.  People wanted to blame Schottenheimer for that?  It is an attempt to solve something that everybody should know by 6th grade.

[Supersonic]

5 hours ago, nj meadowlands said:

There's definitely a chicken and egg thing going on.  I was more critical of LaFleur until I saw the barrage of clips yesterday where Zach stared at, and refused to throw to, wide open receivers.  Pretty damning stuff.

All that said, due to the magnitude of Zach's sh*ttiness, and the cherry on top of his awful post-game presser, I still think LaFleur is escaping criticism this week for some absolutely mystifying playcalling vs. NE.  (I think overall LaFleur has been decent)

 

I believe your first instinct was correct.  Lafleur sucks.  You can't blame the pitiful running game on Zach.  MF is god-awful at mixing up plays, which makes play-action absolutely worthless.  The offense is far too predictable.  When you only got 3 points on the board, maybe there comes a time to shake things up.  End around?  Double reverse?  Flea Flicker?  HB Option? (a RB has a better chance of completing a pass)   SOMETHING other than what's obviously not working would be wise.

[dbatesman]

1 hour ago, football guy said:

The rumor I have heard is that LaFleur wants Mike White to get an opportunity to run his offense. I'm not convinced Saleh is in his corner, and if he were, its likely more of a temporary measure/punishment for Zach's attitude post-game

Is it possible they go with Flacco? That seems insane to me, but these are the Jets after all.

[BigRy56]

LaFleur had a bad game on Sunday IMO but Zach is the reason the Jets lost the football game 

[ScarletKnight89]

The issue is so clearly the QB. I hope Zach Wilson turns it all around, especially after some of the ridiculous personal shots I've seen many in the media (led by that idiot Booger McFarland) take at him this week, but it doesn't look good right now for Zach. He looks lost out there. 

LaFleur isn't the issue.

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't understand how this board can pretend that "drilling it into him not to make mistakes" is a negative.  He's not supposed to make mistakes.  He made some really, really, really dumb ones and it cost us a game.  The fact that he puts his tail between his legs and holds the ball "so he doesn't make mistakes" is on him, not the ******* OC.  Throw the ******* ball.  That's your job.  Throw it to the right guy.  Don't throw it to the guy in the other colored jersey.  It's not that ******* difficult.  It's like Sanchez and the red light, green light, one, two, three.  People wanted to blame Schottenheimer for that?  It is an attempt to solve something that everybody should know by 6th grade.

Mistakes are fine if you can put up about 21 points per game or so.  Which, as you note, he's incapable of or too scared to be able to do.  He can't do the basic job of a QB at the pro level.

[doitny]

5 hours ago, SR24 said:

Lafleur opted to run the ball twice and throw a screen at the LOS on 3rd down. He coached scared that whole game

but he did that cause Zach had 40% comp %. any throw had a bad chance to be completed. game tie 3-3 he ran it twice to see if we could break on.

i bet if someone else starts sunday you see alot more passes. a totally different gameplan. Zach is the worst QB in the NFL at completing passes. in fact 3 backups are better including our own Joe Flacco.

in Flaccos 3 games he threw it more than anyone. ML wants to throw it downfield but cant trust Zach to get it done

[doitny]

54 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Is it possible they go with Flacco? That seems insane to me, but these are the Jets after all.

very possible. i think the vets trust Flacco more and i think the young WRs love all the targets and downfield throws they got in the 1st 3 weeks. 

now our coaches might want to see what White has since he is young and could be our future. interesting to see which way they go

[dbatesman]

9 minutes ago, doitny said:

very possible. i think the vets trust Flacco more and i think the young WRs love all the targets and downfield throws they got in the 1st 3 weeks. 

now our coaches might want to see what White has since he is young and could be our future. interesting to see which way they go

 

On 11/21/2022 at 5:07 PM, dbatesman said:

if they start Flacco I will set myself on fire

 

[#27TheDominator]

3 hours ago, peekskill68 said:

Connor Hughes is all about Connor Hughes.  He's whoring clicks by the thousands escalating this Zach Wilson mess.  JMO...

Why would you expect anything different?  Isn't that his actual job?  I feel like I am listening to that old Chris Rock bit.  It's the media's fault!

[SuicidalSince98]

3 hours ago, football guy said:

Part of the problem but what’s a bigger one is the blame game between ZW, the receivers, and MLF. Zach feels he does everything LaFleur asks of him, and when things go wrong he’s scapegoated for it. The receivers feel they’re unfairly pigeonholed and not properly utilized. LaFleur feels the players have to buy into his gameplan and execute it how it’s called. 

This is a situation where having some veteran coaches on offense would probably smooth things over. Instead Saleh is going to step in.

I called it 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

3 hours ago, football guy said:

Part of the problem but what’s a bigger one is the blame game between ZW, the receivers, and MLF. Zach feels he does everything LaFleur asks of him, and when things go wrong he’s scapegoated for it. The receivers feel they’re unfairly pigeonholed and not properly utilized. LaFleur feels the players have to buy into his gameplan and execute it how it’s called. 

This is a situation where having some veteran coaches on offense would probably smooth things over. Instead Saleh is going to step in.

Idk why but this line turned me on. Makes Saleh sound so bad ass. Straighten em out Bob!!

[RJIII]

Get rid of cuckold woody and piss poor zach wilson, the absolute worst in all of sports. 

[Gastineau Lives]

8 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

@Gastineau Lives

Bro 149 bucks

[C Mart]

2 hours ago, BigRy56 said:

LaFleur had a bad game on Sunday IMO but Zach is the reason the Jets lost the football game 

Did he?  Or maybe if his QB could complete simple passes we’d see a different outcome. 

[peekskill68]

37 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Why would you expect anything different?  Isn't that his actual job?  I feel like I am listening to that old Chris Rock bit.  It's the media's fault!

You're right.  I have a hard on for the guy.  Always pisses me off when he tweets out the draft picks before we all get to see them.  I think I've transferred my anger from Peter King to him.  Thanks.  You probably saved me $150 in therapy this week...

[Smashmouth]

8 hours ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

The one thing i was critical of lafluer this week was his approach in the run game.  Now this could be attributed to Feeney playing guard instead of Herbig, but the team has been way more successfull with using gap scheme runs such as counter and trap the last few weeks to produce yards.  The big drive against buffalo they ran counter 4 times in a row (different versions but the same principle) this game he decided to limit those concepts in favor of more inside zone.  I just did not see it as a positive. 

LaFleur was calling plays based on what he was given. NE was stacking vs the run and bringing 6 in coverage on third down. Zach did nothing to alter the way Belichick was calling the game from his side, so he stuck with what was working. In that respect there was nothing LaFleur could do if our sh*tfaced QB could not hit open receivers all over the field.

[Smashmouth]

3 hours ago, dbatesman said:

Is it possible they go with Flacco? That seems insane to me, but these are the Jets after all.

If they go with Flacco I'm not sure I can sit and watch the slow motion pile of sh*t. There really is no way they could be that stupid right ? I mean he's been inactive for the last 4 weeks

[Smashmouth]

5 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Every time people use the intials "MLF" I can't help but think "MILF".

But it makes a lot of sense, considering that LaFleur keeps getting f**ked by Zach Wilson.

I think there are some MILF's in the Lingerie football league that can play QB better than Zach.

[dbatesman]

37 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

If they go with Flacco I'm not sure I can sit and watch the slow motion pile of sh*t. There really is no way they could be that stupid right ? I mean he's been inactive for the last 4 weeks

Just gonna keep tapping the sign:

On 11/21/2022 at 5:07 PM, dbatesman said:

if they start Flacco I will set myself on fire

 

[BigRy56]

1 hour ago, C Mart said:

Did he?  Or maybe if his QB could complete simple passes we’d see a different outcome. 

I remember a lot of bland calls, stuff like 3rd and 1 screens and runs from the shotgun. Zach was terrible and definitely had something to do with it but it was not a good game for MLF at all IMO

[JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF]

11 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

If your QB consistently fails to find open wrs you have a QB problem. Pretty straight forward and simple. I'm sure we'll have our fair share of mental gymnastics to try and twist it though.

So brutal….

 

[Dunnie]

13 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

IMO one of the reasons Zach doesn't pull the trigger and pass to receivers that are NFL open and even LFL open is because he is afraid to make mistakes. Why? Because they've drilled into him that if he doesn't make turnovers, the team will win. Well, they had zero turnovers and lost. So lets put that to bed.

The other reason is that he doesn't see the open receiver. 

I have no idea as to the ratio of open receivers he sees and does not see on the non-throws. But, he clearly is eye-balling some of them. So it is safe to say on some number of these plays he sees the open receiver but chooses not to attempt the pass. 

I'm currently of the opinion that Wilson is not an NFL QB and needs to prove otherwise in the time he has left. During this time, he needs to be told, he is playing for his future and mistakes are sometimes OK, so long as the play you are trying to make is a smart play and not a horse's ass throw into coverage after you've done three pirouettes and run 18 yards backwards. So, get your feet right, step the **** up in the pocket and throw the damned ball with authority and conviction because you are playing for your NFL life. 

Maybe he'll succeed. He probably wont (based on the fact that few do). But, at least we can turn the page and move on after this season. 

Nice post SW .... i agree ... he has been drilled not to lose the game.  The defense can win on their own. So he is terrified to take a chance on any 50/50 balls.   This is a massive coaching failure so far.   And not uncommon to other defensive minded regimes we have seen in the past.... does this not feel like Mark Sanchez 2.0 ??

Defensive coaches afraid to play offense are frustrating.

To be clear ... as of right now Wed Nov 23 ... I agree Zach has not proven himself to be NFL ready.  Im giving him the year because i committed to that ... he has talent ..but he has not been developed.  The short passes are evidence that the QB coach has no ****ign clue.

[Dunnie]

6 hours ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

So brutal….

 

to be fair wide open Mims is 50/50 chance of a completion. Again another player that has not been developed ... he is still a sh*tty body catcher that doesn't attack the ball.