Max Mitchell

[BCJet]

Did anyone watch a lot of Max Mitchell to see how he played?  Cedric Ogbuehi started the game but he left after the first series with a groin injury and Mitchell played the rest of the game and seemed to hold up ok, but I didnt watch him a ton individually. 

It really is remarkable the amount of injuries we have had to our OTs this season.  Hopefully Mitchell is 100% and we can also get Fant back in to playing shape in case he needs to fill in at some point.  We will also get a full week of work in practice for LDT in case we need IOL help.

[TuscanyTile2]

Just now, BCJet said:

Did anyone watch a lot of Max Mitchell to see how he played?  Cedric Ogbuehi started the game but he left after the first series with a groin injury and Mitchell played the rest of the game and seemed to hold up ok, but I didnt watch him a ton individually. 

It really is remarkable the amount of injuries we have had to our OTs this season.  Hopefully Mitchell is 100% and we can also get Fant back in to playing shape in case he needs to fill in at some point.  We will also get a full week of work in practice for LDT in case we need IOL help.

The OL depth has been incredible.  The RB depth too but I feel like that's a much easier position to back-fill.

[Rhg1084]

4 minutes ago, BCJet said:

Did anyone watch a lot of Max Mitchell to see how he played?  Cedric Ogbuehi started the game but he left after the first series with a groin injury and Mitchell played the rest of the game and seemed to hold up ok, but I didnt watch him a ton individually. 

It really is remarkable the amount of injuries we have had to our OTs this season.  Hopefully Mitchell is 100% and we can also get Fant back in to playing shape in case he needs to fill in at some point.  We will also get a full week of work in practice for LDT in case we need IOL help.

When it comes to offensive lineman’s performance I feel like no news is good news. We really didn’t hear his name too much I think he had a good day

[KRL]

Mitchell jumped back in and didn't miss a beat.  Hopefully they can stay healthy and our OLine remains:

Brown, Tomlinson, McGovern, Herbig and Mitchell

 

[BigRy56]

Seems like the Jets may have a long term RT on their hands

[Sarge4Tide]

Saw him on a couple of plays, if nothing else, he gets after it and tries to mix it up with people. Him and Herbig seem to work well together.  Him and AVT should be really solid over on the right side for years to come.  

[Fantasy Island]

JD had an amazing draft this year.  

[TuscanyTile2]

3 minutes ago, BigRy56 said:

Seems like the Jets may have a long term RT on their hands

W for @Sperm Edwards, who has repeatedly argued against investing too many high round picks into the OL (you can get them later in the draft or in FA).

[KRL]

Will be interesting to see how Douglas/Saleh constructs the OLine going forward.
With Vera-Tucker, Herbig and Mitchell all young and cheap.  Do they move AVT to 
LT and keep Tomlinson at LG and look for a young long term replacement for
McGovern at C in the draft?  That would keep the cap hit on the OLine low for a few years

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, KRL said:

Will be interesting to see how Douglas/Saleh constructs the OLine going forward.
With Vera-Tucker, Herbig and Mitchell all young and cheap.  Do they move AVT to 
LT and keep Tomlinson at LG and look for a young long term replacement for
McGovern at C in the draft?  That would keep the cap hit on the OLine low for a few years

I think they keep drafting OL and DL which needs to be the strength of the team.  They’ll pay some and let others walk. 

[BCJet]

Great, info - thanks.

The depth going into 2023 is really going to be amazing given that Herbig has proven himself to be a starting caliber guard who might not have a starting role given that Tomlinson is likely here another year and we really dont need AVT at the tackle spots if Brown is healthy in 2023 (and doesnt retire) and Mitchell continues to hold down RT.

Adding Becton in any way (yes a long shot) along with a center from the draft and we should continue to have a really good OL for the next few years.

[BCJet]

5 minutes ago, KRL said:

Will be interesting to see how Douglas/Saleh constructs the OLine going forward.
With Vera-Tucker, Herbig and Mitchell all young and cheap.  Do they move AVT to 
LT and keep Tomlinson at LG and look for a young long term replacement for
McGovern at C in the draft?  That would keep the cap hit on the OLine low for a few years

There are 5+ centers in this draft who have starting potential, and that is without including the Georgia center who is excellent but is only a red-shirt sophmore.  Would be great to keep mcgovern for another year while developing a 2-4th round pick at center for a season.

[C Mart]

6 minutes ago, KRL said:

Will be interesting to see how Douglas/Saleh constructs the OLine going forward.
With Vera-Tucker, Herbig and Mitchell all young and cheap.  Do they move AVT to 
LT and keep Tomlinson at LG and look for a young long term replacement for
McGovern at C in the draft?  That would keep the cap hit on the OLine low for a few years

This is the draft to get a young C in the 2nd-3rd.

[Claymation]

15 minutes ago, Sarge4Tide said:

Saw him on a couple of plays, if nothing else, he gets after it and tries to mix it up with people. Him and Herbig seem to work well together.  Him and AVT should be really solid over on the right side for years to come.  

I would like to resign Herbig and let AVT play LT with Micthell/Becton compete for RT.

[Rhg1084]

9 minutes ago, KRL said:

Will be interesting to see how Douglas/Saleh constructs the OLine going forward.
With Vera-Tucker, Herbig and Mitchell all young and cheap.  Do they move AVT to 
LT and keep Tomlinson at LG and look for a young long term replacement for
McGovern at C in the draft?  That would keep the cap hit on the OLine low for a few years

I’d assume Fant is as good as gone with Mitchell performing like a capable starter. Next year could look something like 

Brown Tomlinson McGovern (or whatever rookie) AVT Mitchell

Becton could battle his way back and fight for a spot as well

[frankiepapa]

I think there have been a couple of games where brown was not very good but I think overall he's been above average... that packers game he was dominant...obviously a lot is up in the air with him, age, health but I'd definitely love to have him back one more year

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[shuler82]

Our 2023 OL has Mitchell, Brown, and Becton under contract at OT, and  only Tomlinson  & AVT at G.  

McGovern, Fant, Herbig & Ogbuehi all FAs.  Fant walks. Herbig is going to get a nice raise- would he come back as a back up? AVT played  tremendous at OT, but Brown has a $6M dead money hit if they cut him, so would assume he sticks around next year.  Do they pay McGovern the market rate at C, or look to the draft?  Regardless, will have some holes to fill this offseason.

[rangerous]

the jets just need to make sure they keep the oline coach.  he's doing a great job.

[Alka]

1 hour ago, Sarge4Tide said:

Saw him on a couple of plays, if nothing else, he gets after it and tries to mix it up with people. Him and Herbig seem to work well together.  Him and AVT should be really solid over on the right side for years to come.  

I personally would leave Herbig at right guard as our starter, and insert AVT as our starting left tackle.  Brown is up there in age, and I would love to have Brown as our quality back up next year.  Don't forget, Brown is foregoing shoulder surgery this year so that he can continue to ball for the Jets.  For that alone, I would bring him back as one of our 47 for next year.  I think Brown will be 39 years old next year?  He might appreciate being a backup and coming in "fresh" when needed.

[Lith]

1 hour ago, KRL said:

Will be interesting to see how Douglas/Saleh constructs the OLine going forward.
With Vera-Tucker, Herbig and Mitchell all young and cheap.  Do they move AVT to 
LT and keep Tomlinson at LG and look for a young long term replacement for
McGovern at C in the draft?  That would keep the cap hit on the OLine low for a few years

Herbig backed up Jason Kelce at C in Philly.  I wonder if he could be the young, long term replacement for McGovern.  At the very least he should get a shot at it in the preseason.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

W for @Sperm Edwards, who has repeatedly argued against investing too many high round picks into the OL (you can get them later in the draft or in FA).

I've got no issues in drafting OL early, but it depends on the scenario and not as a must-do rule.

- what are the other holes the team has?

- are those other holes just as hard to otherwise fill via FA or later in the draft? If otherwise acquiring in FA or later in the draft:

• FA: how much does the former cost (at the expense of less spending elsewhere);
• Draft later: how predictable is it to get the requisite performance with a later draft pick (and how quickly to develop, if we're talking current holes)

- what other "unique" + "impact position" prospects are also there? In this past draft, it was CB and WR. I was blown away at the very suggestion of drafting a safety, center, TE, etc. that early. The only way that's even close to value is if the player ends up being a unanimous 1st ballot HOFer. Otherwise it's overbidding. 

So that's why I'm good with drafting a LT in the top 10 but not other positions. Equal performers are vastly more expensive at LT vs G/RT vs C. Top LTs cost 20% more than top RTs; moreover there are far more of them making bigger bucks. Something like 14 LTs are on contracts of $14MM or more (irrespective of when they were signed). That's triple the # for RTs (just 5 making $14MM+). 

Moreover, to get a known-quantity LT, they don't typically become available as FAs. Even if the prior team doesn't want to offer the big bucks contract, they're still more likely to tag & trade than merely let the player go to the FA pool. So acquiring a good, veteran LT means signing someone a bit older and hoping the career-wall doesn't hit this year or next; or for one still in his 20s, trading at least a 1st rounder (possibly multiple 1sts) for the privilege of making that mega-contract offer (e.g. Tunsil); or a combo thereof (Trent Williams cost a couple mid-round picks plus didn't have multiple contract years left plus was a little older plus had a significant injury history).

Off the top of my head I can't think of another OL position that costs so much to acquire a veteran (whether adequate or elite or in between). No one gives up a 1st round pick to trade for a veteran center or RT and if there's an example of one guard who's commanded that trade value I'm just not remembering offhand. 

This year it looks like we'll be picking in the bottom half of round 1, and possibly in the bottom 1/3 to 1/4 if things continue to go well. At that level, outside the top 20 in particular, any OL position can be a value pick. However I think the team's OL woes over most of the past several years, plus the OL success the team enjoyed while Ferguson+Mangold were in their primes, has led too many to think that this is a formula that needs to be replicated.

Take this point home: last year's SB champs had zero 1st round picks and zero high-dollar FAs on it. They had a late 2nd round pick of their own, and a former late 2nd round pick who was 40 years old, and another former 2nd round bust who was again on the bench in Cleveland when LA picked him midseason for a future 5th rounder. 

That take-home point doesn't therefore mean the winning formula is to only acquire OL starters cheaply; just that it's not a prerequisite to draft 'em in round 1 or pay 'em through the nose as veteran FAs. That, if a mid-round pick like Mitchell is showing some early promise, don't slam the door on his career before it gets started by drafting or signing someone who'll relegate the youngster to a reserve role. 

I don't do Cliff Notes versions. Anyone who feels the need to condense this for the unwashed, semi-literate masses may do so. ?

[JoJoTownsell1]

1 hour ago, Rhg1084 said:

I’d assume Fant is as good as gone with Mitchell performing like a capable starter. Next year could look something like 

Brown Tomlinson McGovern (or whatever rookie) AVT Mitchell

Becton could battle his way back and fight for a spot as well

Yup,  the combo of being disgruntled to start the year,  wanting to get paid the big bucks and being unable to stay healthy won't work in his favor. 

[jetsons]

1 hour ago, Sarge4Tide said:

Saw him on a couple of plays, if nothing else, he gets after it and tries to mix it up with people. Him and Herbig seem to work well together.  Him and AVT should be really solid over on the right side for years to come.  

The way Tomlinson & Herbig have played this year I'd keep Herbig at RG with Mitchell at RT & have AVT as the LG with Tomlinson as his backup, I know he was paid but you play the Best Player not the best "paid" player.

[JohnnyLV]

1 hour ago, KRL said:

Will be interesting to see how Douglas/Saleh constructs the OLine going forward.
With Vera-Tucker, Herbig and Mitchell all young and cheap.  Do they move AVT to 
LT and keep Tomlinson at LG and look for a young long term replacement for
McGovern at C in the draft?  That would keep the cap hit on the OLine low for a few years

I could totally see that. If we keep Herbig and get a new center that would be a formidable line. It is not AVTs "natural position" but he was still well better than average at LT with like 2 weeks to prepare "in case" He would not be an all pro, but AVT could be like a Brick level LT. Herbig has been terrific and Mitchell could really develop.

[Claymation]

I know this is a Max Mitchell Thread, but that Tomlinson block that sprung Ty Johnson was a thing of beauty.

 

[jetstream23]

2 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

The OL depth has been incredible.  The RB depth too but I feel like that's a much easier position to back-fill.

Agreed, especially with the RBs in this offensive system and the wide/zone blocking scheme.  Most RBs who can quickly accelerate to the hole and maybe make one cut do very well in this system.  Zonovan Knight looked good, Ty Montgomery looked good.  Breece Hall and Carter have looked great.  Not knocking those guys but it's the system, similar to what the 49ers ran with guys like Jeff Wilson, Mostert, Mitchell, etc. that makes this thing work.  This rushing attack needs a certain TYPE of RB, not an elite athletic guy, a Derrick Henry, etc.  JMHO.

[Flashlite80]

2 hours ago, BCJet said:

Great, info - thanks.

The depth going into 2023 is really going to be amazing given that Herbig has proven himself to be a starting caliber guard who might not have a starting role given that Tomlinson is likely here another year and we really dont need AVT at the tackle spots if Brown is healthy in 2023 (and doesnt retire) and Mitchell continues to hold down RT.

Adding Becton in any way (yes a long shot) along with a center from the draft and we should continue to have a really good OL for the next few years.

If Becton ever gets healthy and under 370, he could be an awesome RT.  With a TE outside him, his pass blocking is strong and he is a demolition machine in the running game.  Imagine tackles of Brown and Mitchell with Becton as depth and Vera Tucker, Tomlinson and Herbig at the guards.   Draft a center and renegotiate McGovern for another year.  You are talking quality and 3 quality depth pieces.  That's how you keep a quarterback healthy.

[TuscanyTile2]

5 minutes ago, Flashlite80 said:

If Becton ever gets healthy and under 370, he could be an awesome RT.  With a TE outside him, his pass blocking is strong and he is a demolition machine in the running game.  Imagine tackles of Brown and Mitchell with Becton as depth and Vera Tucker, Tomlinson and Herbig at the guards.   Draft a center and renegotiate McGovern for another year.  You are talking quality and 3 quality depth pieces.  That's how you keep a quarterback healthy.

Have to hope Becton is watching this awesomeness and it's motivating him to get take diet and rehab seriously, so he can get in on the fun next year.

[frankiepapa]

I know this is a Max Mitchell Thread, but that Tomlinson block that sprung Ty Johnson was a thing of beauty.
 

Could have sworn that ty was going to get a penalty there for taunting

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[JetsRay]

3 hours ago, KRL said:

Will be interesting to see how Douglas/Saleh constructs the OLine going forward.
With Vera-Tucker, Herbig and Mitchell all young and cheap.  Do they move AVT to 
LT and keep Tomlinson at LG and look for a young long term replacement for
McGovern at C in the draft?  That would keep the cap hit on the OLine low for a few years

I think this is a fascinating topic, and will be interesting to follow in the off-season.

I can see any combination playing out.

I still think our best OG tandem are Tomlinson and AVT, but Herbig is right there. And once Tomlinson's contract is up, AVT slides back to LG with his big contract and Herbig at RG.

[shuler82]

2 minutes ago, JetsRay said:

I think this is a fascinating topic, and will be interesting to follow in the off-season.

I can see any combination playing out.

I still think our best OG tandem are Tomlinson and AVT, but Herbig is right there. And once Tomlinson's contract is up, AVT slides back to LG with his big contract and Herbig at RG.

Herbig is a FA in 2023 and will not be resigning here for back up money.  We have Tomlinson's contract at one spot, and a starting C spot to fill with McGovern set to hit FA as well.  Will be interesting how JD prioritizes the OL given our cap situation moving forward, and not having the boatloads of money to spend like we usually do. 

[clayton163v]

2 hours ago, shuler82 said:

Our 2023 OL has Mitchell, Brown, and Becton under contract at OT, and  only Tomlinson  & AVT at G.  

McGovern, Fant, Herbig & Ogbuehi all FAs.  Fant walks. Herbig is going to get a nice raise- would he come back as a back up? AVT played  tremendous at OT, but Brown has a $6M dead money hit if they cut him, so would assume he sticks around next year.  Do they pay McGovern the market rate at C, or look to the draft?  Regardless, will have some holes to fill this offseason.

Unless things change, Brown will remain at LT.  He is playing some of the best ball on the team.  The emergence of Herbig permits the Jets to let Thomlinson walk (he has only one year of guaranteed money) if we choose to resign him.  Herbig is also a Center/Guard.  He might be our center next season if we choose to draft a guard instead of a center.  O'Cyrus Torrence would be nice.  We have to make a decision on McGovern.  I would offer him a two year deal on current terms.  He is a good center and worth the $10 million.  I move AVT back to RT and leave Mitchell at RT.  

If Becton comes to camp healthy and in shape, he will rearrange the lineup by force imo.  I remain bullish on his play but not his chances.  But I do remain hopeful.  Those seven games on film were tremendous.   

As for the draft, unless Torrance is there with our 2d pick (dubious) I will look to add an inside guy in the 3d or 4th.  One of the centers will be there.  So will one of the guards.  I like Vorhees.  I will of course add a tackle in the first round if it falls our way.  Which is also dubious.  Real shortage of tackles in this year's draft. 

2 hours ago, rangerous said:

the jets just need to make sure they keep the oline coach.  he's doing a great job.

Amen.  We have no right to these performances given all the injuries.  But old man Brown had a lot to do with it.

1 hour ago, Alka said:

I personally would leave Herbig at right guard as our starter, and insert AVT as our starting left tackle.  Brown is up there in age, and I would love to have Brown as our quality back up next year.  Don't forget, Brown is foregoing shoulder surgery this year so that he can continue to ball for the Jets.  For that alone, I would bring him back as one of our 47 for next year.  I think Brown will be 39 years old next year?  He might appreciate being a backup and coming in "fresh" when needed.

Until Brown slows down he remains downtown.  I want AVT back at guard.  McGovern might get paid again in which case we have to move on. 

[clayton163v]

2 hours ago, Lith said:

Herbig backed up Jason Kelce at C in Philly.  I wonder if he could be the young, long term replacement for McGovern.  At the very least he should get a shot at it in the preseason.

Good point on Herbig.  Like Feeney, he is a Center/Guard.  Joe Douglas likes versatile players..  He has earned both a raise and a chance to start.

[Paradis]

4 hours ago, BigRy56 said:

Seems like the Jets may have a long term RT on their hands

a 5th rounder from E michigan if memory serves... THAT's what winning teams do, hit on players later in the draft by finding those diamonds in the smaller programs (vs taking someone who's been exposed in the p5 and hoping it you can fix it)

[JetsMetsDevilsPA]

34 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Have to hope Becton is watching this awesomeness and it's motivating him to get take diet and rehab seriously, so he can get in on the fun next year.

I would hope so... Unfortunately I think the 2 years of not practicing and playing are going to kill his chances even if he got his sh*t together and took care of his weight issue.  Also, his sustained injuries aren't exactly minor.