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Jets Scouting/Pro Personnel Operation

varjet

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varjet

varjet

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I think its pretty clear that the Jets have historically underachieved in the Draft.

Our FA signings are mixed to not great.  Who is making these decisions?  Who is providing JD, and before him Maccagnan, with the raw material and data to analyze players?  

We have bemoaned the players on the roster ever since the Mangini Magic wore off and Rex and Tannenbaum started picking the players. 

We have also read about how teams like the Eagles make their assistant coaches scout players to fit their schemes in person, which is why they draft well.  The Jets have drafted better when their defensive coaches have gotten involved.  

I have said that I suspected that the Pro Personnel/Scouting Staff is basically a bunch of long-term functionaries who pre-dated JD and who have been responsible for the Jets roster.  I performed an independent investigation on the matter, and I was right!  

JD has been in his job FIVE YEARS.  Below is the Jets Scouting/Pro Personnel Staff, with their years on the job. These people go back to Tannenbaum, and almost all Maccagnan.  It is possible that the website is off and the 6 year people below were JD hires, but it is still pretty bad.

These guys have been historically bad at their jobs.   The organization is rotten to the core. 

Scouting

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Sonny Werblin

Sonny Werblin

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The scouts are good on D, bad on O.

Quincy on waivers, Huff as undrafted free agent. Reed and Whitehead in free agency. Rarely whiff on a high D player pick in the draft and hit on some late ones -- Michael Carter, Michael Clemons and Brandin Echols

Who are the draft successes on O? GW and BH. Anyone else? Maybe AVT if he eventually avoids season ending injuries. Instead, they waste second round picks on Mims and Moore. Who are the successful Free Agent signing on O? That's right there are NONE.  How about undrafted Free Agents or Waiver pick ups? Maybe Xavier Gibson, maybe.

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varjet

varjet

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7 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

The scouts are good on D, bad on O.

Quincy on waivers, Huff as undrafted free agent. Reed and Whitehead in free agency. Rarely whiff on a high D player pick in the draft and hit on some late ones -- Michael Carter, Michael Clemons and Brandin Echols

Who are the draft successes on O? GW and BH. Anyone else? Maybe AVT if he eventually avoids season ending injuries. Instead, they waste second round picks on Mims and Moore. Who are the successful Free Agent signing on O? That's right there are NONE.  How about undrafted Free Agents or Waiver pick ups? Maybe Xavier Gibson, maybe.

This confirms what I have been saying-these guys are useless.  They can't even spot issues with work ethic or personality, like with Becton, Mims and Moore.   Or with processing, like with Zach Wilson.   That is what scouts are supposed to do.  

Saleh and Ulbrich work hard to find good players for their defense.  That was not MLF's thing.  

But let's feed this into the larger picture.  JD is working with the people that Woody makes him use.  Saleh is working with the players that JD gives him, and the assistants that Woody gives him the budget for.

JD and Saleh are not terrible professionals.  There is no real assurance that we can fire them and do better if we continue to make our GM and HC work with the resources that they are allocated.

And that does even address the training and medical care the players get.

The Jets' record over the past 12 years is not an accident.  The dog did not eat their homework.   It is not all the fault of incompetent GMs and HCs.  The organization itself is rotten to the core.  

 

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BCJet

BCJet

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Setting aside the medical training staff as that is a different issue, I think there has been a philosphical change with respect to the draft that is readily apparent in the results.

JDs first draft had a lot of issues where he took guys that had questionable character - specifically the 2020 draft with Becton, Zuniga and mims.  I peronally can excuse the Becton and even the Mims picks as the talent and physical ability allowed for a "swing for the fences" analysis of both those players.  I also think Gase had some influence over that draft as no intelligent person would want james morgan on their team.  As for zuniga, (and i do realize we are talking about a 4th rounder) i think this is where JD has improved a lot in that you probably want to focus on higher character guys in the mid rounds unless the player fell specifically for character reasons and was an elite player (similar to Sam Williams on Dallas). Zuniga never had a high ceiling, so why risk a complete swing and miss when you can potentially find a guy who can be an end of the roster contributor and help build a strong team character?

I dont want to get into another zach wilson debate - we needed a QB and JD missed.  It turned out to be a bad year to have a top 5 pick and need a QB it happens.

But looking at the 2021-22-23 drafts JD has only taken 1 player with character concerns in Elijiah Moore which clearly didnt work out.  Aside from that pick, he has taken only high character players and his top picks have all worked out very well.   The entire 2022 draft is contributing on a regular basis all at a high level aside from Max Mitchell who was a developmental pick that hasnt worked out to date.

People werent thrilled about the mcdonald pick but Tippman has been excellent and mcdonald has a ton of upside as a long term edge rusher.  Carter warren and Izzy also fall into a similar category.

As for free agency, the differnce between JD and Mac is that mac was so terrible that he didnt realize dont give guys their last contract.  Giving Trumaine Johnson $60 million at his age is ridiculous.  JD tends to go after guys like Lawson and Conklin who will remain engaged in order to get another contract before their career ends which I feel is an excellent philosophy for the higher tier guys.  Tomlinson had a strong career before coming here and was a durable, high character guys - how he became such a poor player is crazy to me, and I guess that happens but its a big miss by JD.

Where I think he consistently struggles is in identfying vets like Ryan Kahil, Dalvin Cook and Duane Brown and not being in a good bargaining position with them.  We consistently overpay guys who are absolutely TOAST by the time the get here which has to change. Its strictly on JD to have Brown at this salary. I also dont understand the insistence on so many void years but who knows.

 

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rangerous

rangerous

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35 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

The scouts are good on D, bad on O.

Quincy on waivers, Huff as undrafted free agent. Reed and Whitehead in free agency. Rarely whiff on a high D player pick in the draft and hit on some late ones -- Michael Carter, Michael Clemons and Brandin Echols

Who are the draft successes on O? GW and BH. Anyone else? Maybe AVT if he eventually avoids season ending injuries. Instead, they waste second round picks on Mims and Moore. Who are the successful Free Agent signing on O? That's right there are NONE.  How about undrafted Free Agents or Waiver pick ups? Maybe Xavier Gibson, maybe.

Tipp?  Maybe Mitchell and Warren. Becton has the physical talent but has fallen off since rookie year.   McGovern was a decent free agent pick up as was Fant and Moses.  Conklin is turning out to be pretty good too.

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Matt39

Matt39

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9 minutes ago, BCJet said:

Setting aside the medical training staff as that is a different issue, I think there has been a philosphical change with respect to the draft that is readily apparent in the results.

JDs first draft had a lot of issues where he took guys that had questionable character - specifically the 2020 draft with Becton, Zuniga and mims.  I peronally can excuse the Becton and even the Mims picks as the talent and physical ability allowed for a "swing for the fences" analysis of both those players.  I also think Gase had some influence over that draft as no intelligent person would want james morgan on their team.  As for zuniga, (and i do realize we are talking about a 4th rounder) i think this is where JD has improved a lot in that you probably want to focus on higher character guys in the mid rounds unless the player fell specifically for character reasons and was an elite player (similar to Sam Williams on Dallas). Zuniga never had a high ceiling, so why risk a complete swing and miss when you can potentially find a guy who can be an end of the roster contributor and help build a strong team character?

I dont want to get into another zach wilson debate - we needed a QB and JD missed.  It turned out to be a bad year to have a top 5 pick and need a QB it happens.

But looking at the 2021-22-23 drafts JD has only taken 1 player with character concerns in Elijiah Moore which clearly didnt work out.  Aside from that pick, he has taken only high character players and his top picks have all worked out very well.   The entire 2022 draft is contributing on a regular basis all at a high level aside from Max Mitchell who was a developmental pick that hasnt worked out to date.

People werent thrilled about the mcdonald pick but Tippman has been excellent and mcdonald has a ton of upside as a long term edge rusher.  Carter warren and Izzy also fall into a similar category.

As for free agency, the differnce between JD and Mac is that mac was so terrible that he didnt realize dont give guys their last contract.  Giving Trumaine Johnson $60 million at his age is ridiculous.  JD tends to go after guys like Lawson and Conklin who will remain engaged in order to get another contract before their career ends which I feel is an excellent philosophy for the higher tier guys.  Tomlinson had a strong career before coming here and was a durable, high character guys - how he became such a poor player is crazy to me, and I guess that happens but its a big miss by JD.

Where I think he consistently struggles is in identfying vets like Ryan Kahil, Dalvin Cook and Duane Brown and not being in a good bargaining position with them.  We consistently overpay guys who are absolutely TOAST by the time the get here which has to change. Its strictly on JD to have Brown at this salary. I also dont understand the insistence on so many void years but who knows.

 

The drafts have been horrific. Becton was a gigantic whiff and someone with easily identifiable maturity concerns. Ditto Mims. Ditto Michael Carter. Just complete dumb picks with any sort of research or interviewing skills. Zuniga- lol. The fact the Texans took his teammate who played the exact same position a few picks later should have gotten people fired. Greenard is now a borderline star. Anyone could have picked Gardner (can even question the use of resources here as the Jets play zone) and Wilson. Karlaftis is probably a better player than JJ. And then obviously Wilson who’s the biggest cream puff/immature of them all. 

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Claymation

Claymation

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55 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

The scouts are good on D, bad on O.

Quincy on waivers, Huff as undrafted free agent. Reed and Whitehead in free agency. Rarely whiff on a high D player pick in the draft and hit on some late ones -- Michael Carter, Michael Clemons and Brandin Echols

Who are the draft successes on O? GW and BH. Anyone else? Maybe AVT if he eventually avoids season ending injuries. Instead, they waste second round picks on Mims and Moore. Who are the successful Free Agent signing on O? That's right there are NONE.  How about undrafted Free Agents or Waiver pick ups? Maybe Xavier Gibson, maybe.

Conklin and Ruckert are their best offensive weapons after GW in the passing game.

The Jets biggest issue the past few years has been their OL. This FO staff is going to have to find 3 starters this offseason, 2 in free agency and a draft pick.

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TuscanyTile2

TuscanyTile2

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1 hour ago, varjet said:

I think its pretty clear that the Jets have historically underachieved in the Draft.

Our FA signings are mixed to not great.  Who is making these decisions?  Who is providing JD, and before him Maccagnan, with the raw material and data to analyze players?  

We have bemoaned the players on the roster ever since the Mangini Magic wore off and Rex and Tannenbaum started picking the players. 

We have also read about how teams like the Eagles make their assistant coaches scout players to fit their schemes in person, which is why they draft well.  The Jets have drafted better when their defensive coaches have gotten involved.  

I have said that I suspected that the Pro Personnel/Scouting Staff is basically a bunch of long-term functionaries who pre-dated JD and who have been responsible for the Jets roster.  I performed an independent investigation on the matter, and I was right!  

JD has been in his job FIVE YEARS.  Below is the Jets Scouting/Pro Personnel Staff, with their years on the job. These people go back to Tannenbaum, and almost all Maccagnan.  It is possible that the website is off and the 6 year people below were JD hires, but it is still pretty bad.

These guys have been historically bad at their jobs.   The organization is rotten to the core. 

Scouting

I feel like they should all be considered "JD hires" or "JD re-hires" at this point.

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varjet

varjet

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43 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I feel like they should all be considered "JD hires" or "JD re-hires" at this point.

That was one of the points I was trying to make.  I don't think they were. I think they are the people that Woody and Hymie tell him to use.

Remember reading about how JD was going to sit down with the scouts and train them in the way he wants them to evaluate and grade players?  I wonder how much of that actually sunk in?

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TuscanyTile2

TuscanyTile2

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1 minute ago, varjet said:

That was one of the points I was trying to make.  I don't think they were. I think they are the people that Woody and Hymie tell him to use.

Remember reading about how JD was going to sit down with the scouts and train them in the way he wants them to evaluate and grade players?  I wonder how much of that actually sunk in?

Interesting theory.  If that's the case, then we're pretty much screwed, regardless of who our GM is.

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bitonti

bitonti

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2 hours ago, BCJet said:

But looking at the 2021-22-23 drafts JD has only taken 1 player with character concerns in Elijiah Moore

Zach wilson is a player with character concerns 

As for the rest of it Parcells used to take a scouts report and throw it in the trash right in front of his face 

We have no idea how much or little of the scouts opinions jd is taking 

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UntouchableCrew

UntouchableCrew

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8 hours ago, Matt39 said:

The drafts have been horrific. Becton was a gigantic whiff and someone with easily identifiable maturity concerns. Ditto Mims. Ditto Michael Carter. Just complete dumb picks with any sort of research or interviewing skills. Zuniga- lol. The fact the Texans took his teammate who played the exact same position a few picks later should have gotten people fired. Greenard is now a borderline star. Anyone could have picked Gardner (can even question the use of resources here as the Jets play zone) and Wilson. Karlaftis is probably a better player than JJ. And then obviously Wilson who’s the biggest cream puff/immature of them all. 

I feel like “anyone could have taken” these two when they were in fact not the first guy taken at their position and are better than that guy… I dunno. Douglas deserves a lot of criticism but he’s certainly made some good moves.

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68JET11

68JET11

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17 guys on that list, and 4 of them were hired by JD... If that isn't a problem with you guys that keep bashing JD then nothing is. MAC and IDZIK still have hires from that list which should tell you all you need to know about why we aren't drafting as successful as we should. I blame JD for not making a stink out of that.

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shuler82

shuler82

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10 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

The scouts are good on D, bad on O.

Quincy on waivers, Huff as undrafted free agent. Reed and Whitehead in free agency. Rarely whiff on a high D player pick in the draft and hit on some late ones -- Michael Carter, Michael Clemons and Brandin Echols

Who are the draft successes on O? GW and BH. Anyone else? Maybe AVT if he eventually avoids season ending injuries. Instead, they waste second round picks on Mims and Moore. Who are the successful Free Agent signing on O? That's right there are NONE.  How about undrafted Free Agents or Waiver pick ups? Maybe Xavier Gibson, maybe.

Maybe it isn’t the scouting.  Maybe it’s the coaching. 
 

Blow Your Mind Wow GIF by Product Hunt

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varjet

varjet

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32 minutes ago, shuler82 said:

Maybe it isn’t the scouting.  Maybe it’s the coaching. 
 

Blow Your Mind Wow GIF by Product Hunt

With the good teams the coaches are very involved in the scouting for their units.  The scouting department looks for problems to avoid. 
 

the jets fail in both tasks.  So the coaches, at least on offense, don’t find the right players, and the coaches have bad players to coach. 

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slimjasi

slimjasi

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1 hour ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I feel like “anyone could have taken” these two when they were in fact not the first guy taken at their position and are better than that guy… I dunno. Douglas deserves a lot of criticism but he’s certainly made some good moves.

To your point, a lot of this board wanted thibs at 4 and either Jermaine Johnson or Jameson Williams at 10 

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JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF

JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF

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13 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

The scouts are good on D, bad on O.

Quincy on waivers, Huff as undrafted free agent. Reed and Whitehead in free agency. Rarely whiff on a high D player pick in the draft and hit on some late ones -- Michael Carter, Michael Clemons and Brandin Echols

Who are the draft successes on O? GW and BH. Anyone else? Maybe AVT if he eventually avoids season ending injuries. Instead, they waste second round picks on Mims and Moore. Who are the successful Free Agent signing on O? That's right there are NONE.  How about undrafted Free Agents or Waiver pick ups? Maybe Xavier Gibson, maybe.

Just heard a stat today, in the LAST 38 YEARS the Jet Offense has Ranked 10th or Better.....drumroll.......ONE TIME.

I don't care how well they draft or put together a Defense, they ALL have to go.

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