Augustiniak Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 1 hour ago, football guy said: What it comes down to me is less about our draft positioning and more to do with NE. I do not want to gift them the QB prospect of their choosing. Otherwise I would root for us lol They’re going to get a qb b/c they’d take Daniels if they had to. But even if the jets lose and somehow got alt, so what. They still need more OL pieces and another wr. And a backup qb. And if they get Fauga, they need a LT and taking all the packers old/injured guys doesn’t do anything but accelerate the search for a new gm in 2025. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long Island Leprechaun Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 8 hours ago, jamesr said: But how many teams who have drafted top 5 consistently have transformed into perennial winners as a result? Always seems to be the same names at the top of the draft, looking for that one "generational guy" who'll turn it all around. Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk While I agree that some teams are simply better managed and scouted, it should at least be noted that a high first pick in the draft means a higher pick in every round. It does matter, just isn't the only factor in why teams win. I should also have added that the higher pick values give more latitude to trade backs and increasing the number of picks. These are not trivial issues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomebodytoAnybody47 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 49 minutes ago, BP said: Why did fatso hire his own then? Seems odd Because he’s lazy and has his own issues? And a fatso? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Rico Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 35 minutes ago, Augustiniak said: They’re going to get a qb b/c they’d take Daniels if they had to. But even if the jets lose and somehow got alt, so what. They still need more OL pieces and another wr. And a backup qb. And if they get Fauga, they need a LT and taking all the packers old/injured guys doesn’t do anything but accelerate the search for a new gm in 2025. A miracle draft could present itself to Dogass, and he can select perfectly. It's still not enough for the Jets to compete in 2024. Anybody who expects better than 8-9, and thats IF Arodge starts all 17 games, is kidding themselves. JD and Salad have totally ****ed this team up. They should have been fired last year, they should be fired right now. Nope, this is Woody World. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeNamathsFurCoat Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 I wanted: 1) Lamar at QB 2) Todd Monken as OC We got: 1) 40y old darkness retreater with shredded Achilles 2) Worst HC / OC / playcaller in the NFL over the last 2 years 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 look at the MVP Race Lamar Jackson - 1.32 Dak Prescott - 4.135 Brock Purdy - 7.262 (mr irrelevant) Josh Allen - 1.7 CmC - 1.8 Tua - 1.5 Tyreek Hill - 5.165 Joe Flacco (!) - 1.18 Patrick Mahomes - 1.10 Matthew Stafford -1.1 Jalen Hurts - 2.53 Jared Goff - 1.1 Where are the high picks? These guys came from all over the round. Stafford and Goff are there but also +20000 odds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 7 minutes ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said: I wanted: 1) Lamar at QB Woody would never give Lamar a big check because he'd rather pay people who think like him: Tebow, Favre, Zach, Aaron Woody is wildly political he doesn't even care about wins and losses as long as the franchise is represented by "his kind of people" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerfish Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 6 minutes ago, bitonti said: look at the MVP Race Lamar Jackson - 1.32 Dak Prescott - 4.135 Brock Purdy - 7.262 (mr irrelevant) Josh Allen - 1.7 CmC - 1.8 Tua - 1.5 Tyreek Hill - 5.165 Joe Flacco (!) - 1.18 Patrick Mahomes - 1.10 Matthew Stafford -1.1 Jalen Hurts - 2.53 Jared Goff - 1.1 Where are the high picks? These guys came from all over the round. Stafford and Goff are there but also +20000 odds Most of those great successes went to already built teams. When we have to draft jc latham instead of the top LT come April the huge win over washington won't mean sh** We could have potentially be looking at marvin harrison or at least a trade down for a huge hall if we lost out. Convince me why jc latham is better than marvin harrision or a trade down for a huge haul/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 16 minutes ago, Beerfish said: Most of those great successes went to already built teams. When we have to draft jc latham instead of the top LT come April the huge win over washington won't mean sh** We could have potentially be looking at marvin harrison or at least a trade down for a huge hall if we lost out. Convince me why jc latham is better than marvin harrision or a trade down for a huge haul/ Ok first off I'm not sure JC Latham is even worth a first rounder. He was awful last night (that whole line was) and he's actually the one who tackles his own QB on the final play - got absolutely blown up with the game on the line- (watch around the 8 minute mark) then he rolls around looking like he hurt his knee. He's like a Becton type - Pass HARD PASS. but to your broader point, the Jets were never in the Marvin sweepstakes; he's a top 3 pick; they aren't really in the alt/olu conversation. These are top 5 players. but it doesn't matter. There are good linemen all over the round. They just have to be smart enough to scout those players and pick them (even if they aren't consensus). Fuaga might be one of these types, as is Kingsley the Jets were never really going to pick 1-5 no matter how bad the season got and again look at the MVP ranks there are good picks to be made at 7 and 8 overall there are good picks to be made at 10 (mahomes) etc. Put it another way they thought Zach was worth 2 it doesn't matter where they draft when the scouting is so sh*t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerous Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 17 hours ago, Ulrich said: I along with many have wanted the Jets to lose this & every season after they were eliminated from playoff contention. To get the highest draft pick possible. Look how far that’s gotten us. It’s great programs that win. Not where you draft. Good/great programs like the Chiefs, Ravens, Niners, Packers, Pats, Steelers, et al drafted at the end of the first round annually for many years when they’ve been good. Yet they just kept winning. Because their great programs. Picking high in the draft is fool’s gold. Unless it’s for a legit franchise QB. The only time we should be rooting for the Jets to lose is if we’re convinced the current regime is incompetent. This regime seems to check that box. So yes I don’t mind if the Jets lose Sunday because JD & Saleh’s results have been awful and the hotter their seats the better. They either rise to the occasion next season or get gone asap. This endless cycle of rooting to lose for a high draft pick is a loser’s game. Instead we can hope the Jets to win Sunday because a light finally went on in this regime’s dim bulb. Otherwise we’ll be back in the exact same place next year. Mostly agree except the point about picking a legit franchise qb. The jets have picked three of their last three QBs in the top five and geno was at the top of the second round. None of them have turned out to be that great. I think at least one of them should have been much better. The odds are with it. About the only way to get the franchise guy is to draft number one. And even there it’s number one for a couple of drafts. I think the jets break this cycle by building the oline (again). Replace becton and Tomlinson, and find a rt in the draft or through free agency. I will also say saleh is going to be a hindrance as a coach. I think the vet players are going to tune him out pretty quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BP Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 2 hours ago, SomebodytoAnybody47 said: Because he’s lazy and has his own issues? And a fatso? Steelers don’t put up with fatsos. They’re a buff team. The jets literally suck at everything, from nutrition, to training and football. You know what they’re good at? Spectacular pyrotechnics and lights off introductions. Those are very very impressive 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrich Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 18 hours ago, Beerfish said: No it is utterly stupid in a lost season to win meaningless games that screw you come draft time. The Jets have proven this time and time and time again. Those wins are forgotten in a week and come draft time you miss out on far better player in every round. These meaningless wins never make a culture difference at all. I agree. My point is where you pick in any draft is largely inconsequential to sustained success. Other than if it’s for a legit franchise QB. Great teams built through the entire draft and free agency win. And the backbone of those great teams are the myriad contributors who weren’t high first round picks. It’s *who* you pick throughout the draft, not where you pick. Look at the two best teams right now. Their franchise QBs were picked 32nd and last overall. Outside of Bosa, McCaffrey, Flowers, Hamilton and several other players - those teams are filled with second round picks and later plus free-agent gems. Great programs know how to identify talent throughout the draft and free agency. And where to deploy precious cap dollars. Of course any program doesn’t mind having high draft picks. But ultimately it’s inconsequential to winning programs where they pick. It’s a matter of are you running a winning program picking good players to fit your winning systems. Through the years the Jets have had countless opportunities to draft great players outside of the top 5 and top 10. But because their program was inept they selected the wrong players. O’Brien instead of Marino, Kyle Brady instead of Sapp, Becton over Wirfs, Zach Wilson over JaMarr Chase, and on & on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OilfieldJet Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 8 hours ago, jamesr said: I know this may not be the greatest example, but take Detroit last year. 1-4 at their bye week, dropped to 1-6 after two more losses. Could have decided to tank from there on in - secure that really high draft pick etc etc. They didn't and they went on to win seven of their next nine. But ahead of the last game - a divisional match up vs. the Packers, who still had playoff hopes of their own - they were already out of post-season contention. What do you reckon would have happened to that team if Campbell played to lose in that last game, to improve their draft position? How would the locker room have responded? Instead they went out and won a "meaningless" December victory ... and just won their division for the first time in 30 years this year. Would the players still have played every bit as hard if Campbell had thrown in the towel in that last game and let the Packers get to the playoffs? I seriously doubt it. If you ask your players to give it their all every day in training camp, and to go above and beyond every week, and then pull the rug from under them - that is how you lose a locker room and create a losing culture. And lose your job shortly afterwards. You just described the Jets in reverse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jets723 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 12 hours ago, Hex said: Who here trusts the Jets to make a good pick in the first round? The 2022 draft was pretty good no? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hex Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 18 hours ago, Jets723 said: The 2022 draft was pretty good no? Expect that to happen again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nj meadowlands Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Rooting for your team to lose "so we get a better draft pick" is the most obnoxiously overused cliche in the sports galaxy and it would be kind of cool if the NFL could somehow eliminate it from the lexicon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 3 minutes ago, nj meadowlands said: Rooting for your team to lose "so we get a better draft pick" is the most obnoxiously overused cliche in the sports galaxy and it would be kind of cool if the NFL could somehow eliminate it from the lexicon lol the NFL did this to themselves by causing the over-valuing of the QB position and what it takes to get one. Thank Goodell for the NFL becoming like a much larger roster version of the NBA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nj meadowlands Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said: lol the NFL did this to themselves by causing the over-valuing of the QB position and what it takes to get one. Thank Goodell for the NFL becoming like a much larger roster version of the NBA. I agree 100% and still stand by my post 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggs Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 A good organization knows the difference between meaningless wins and meaningful losses. We are not a good organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 On 1/2/2024 at 8:48 AM, Barry McCockinner said: beating the Patriots Sunday does nothing towards advancing a "good program" here. Losing gives us more draft capital. On 1/2/2024 at 2:21 PM, football guy said: What it comes down to me is less about our draft positioning and more to do with NE. I do not want to gift them the QB prospect of their choosing. Otherwise I would root for us lol Not just increasing our pick to as high as #5, but keeping NE up as high as #2 instead of as low as picks 5-7. I don't think we can drop down much further, and maybe our floor is where we are right now at 8th (if we win and Minnesota loses then it makes our schedule easier, which gives us a tie-breaker over them; we already beat the other 7-9 teams on SOS if we all end up 7-10). If all 3 of the 5-11 teams lose, then it may not change our draft slot at all no matter whether we win or lose against New England. It could affect NE's draft position by as many as 5 slots, though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Rico Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 20 hours ago, Jets723 said: The 2022 draft was pretty good no? The Jets had 2 first round picks (acquired by trading first round picks LOL) and a 2nd round pick. They have 1 first round pick and no 2nd round round pick, coming up. The team is 14-21 or some sh*t in the last two years. Pretty good? I guess. It would be cool if the Jets could win and make the playoffs. That would be even more pretty good. No? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 the Jets seem to have the uncanny ability in unearthing prospects who have commitment flags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuscanyTile2 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 On 1/2/2024 at 12:43 AM, Robert said: The 93 Yankees just kept winning even though they were losers and wins didn’t help the draft then 94 they were likely playoff 95 in the big mix tough loss 96 onward- rest is history. its all about the program Baseball <> Football Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuscanyTile2 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Programs Win, Not Picking High In the Draft Not when you're trying to win the Offseason Super Bowl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuscanyTile2 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 12 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said: Not just increasing our pick to as high as #5, but keeping NE up as high as #2 instead of as low as picks 5-7. I don't think we can drop down much further, and maybe our floor is where we are right now at 8th (if we win and Minnesota loses then it makes our schedule easier, which gives us a tie-breaker over them; we already beat the other 7-9 teams on SOS if we all end up 7-10). If all 3 of the 5-11 teams lose, then it may not change our draft slot at all no matter whether we win or lose against New England. It could affect NE's draft position by as many as 5 slots, though. Right, plus our draft pick will be higher in every round. That could end up being critical in other rounds (especially the 3rd or 4th). As an added bonus, it also pisses off @kevinc855. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesr Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 A good organization knows the difference between meaningless wins and meaningful losses. We are not a good organization. So who is a good organisation, that is playing to lose in 'meaningless' games?I'm looking around the league and I don't see any.Good organisations are planning for the playoffs right now, not planning to lose so they can draft OT 1 over OT 2 in 4 months' time.Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jets723 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 14 hours ago, Ron Rico said: The Jets had 2 first round picks (acquired by trading first round picks LOL) and a 2nd round pick. They have 1 first round pick and no 2nd round round pick, coming up. The team is 14-21 or some sh*t in the last two years. Pretty good? I guess. It would be cool if the Jets could win and make the playoffs. That would be even more pretty good. No? They had 3 firsts and they got Breece Hall in the second. So they got Sauce, GW, JJ, and Breece. Again pretty good no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jets723 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 15 hours ago, Hex said: Expect that to happen again? Of course not. I’m simply striving that year was a great one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 51 minutes ago, jamesr said: So who is a good organisation, that is playing to lose in 'meaningless' games? I'm looking around the league and I don't see any. Good organisations are planning for the playoffs right now, not planning to lose so they can draft OT 1 over OT 2 in 4 months' time. Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk Good orgs tend to make quality picks in the middle of the 1st. The Steelers come to mind. But we aren’t like that, and it’s still OK to tank when the opportunity arises. The Colts, Bengals and Rams have done that over the years and 2 of those won SBs as a result. The other paired up Burrow and Chase. Not too shabby. Pretty sure those 3 are considered “good orgs” these days, no? Well they were built largely on years of tanking. The Jaguars have also become much more respected than they used to be. Again…they tanked their way there. On the flip side…Can you think of anything good that’s ever come from all the meaningless December wins the Jets have gotten since they started that trend back in 2005? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesr Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 17 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said: Good orgs tend to make quality picks in the middle of the 1st. The Steelers come to mind. But we aren’t like that, and it’s still OK to tank when the opportunity arises. The Colts, Bengals and Rams have done that over the years and 2 of those won SBs as a result. The other paired up Burrow and Chase. Not too shabby. Pretty sure those 3 are considered “good orgs” these days, no? Well they were built largely on years of tanking. The Jaguars have also become much more respected than they used to be. Again…they tanked their way there. On the flip side…Can you think of anything good that’s ever come from all the meaningless December wins the Jets have gotten since they started that trend back in 2005? How did the Colts tank and have it lead to a Superbowl win? They won it in 2007, and prior to that their record was 14-2, 12-4, 13-3, 12-4, 12-4, 10-6, 6-10, 10-6, 13-3. If that is your definition of tanking then yes, the Jets should "tank" by winning double digit games continuously. As an aside - the 6-10 year got them Dwight Freeney at pick 11. Great player, but hardly an example of "tanking". Did the Bengals actively tank to get Burrow, or were they just bad? They fired their coach the year before and started the season with 11 straight losses (then they beat ... yep, us!). They started Dalton at QB over Ryan Finley (which would have been the smarter "tank" move IMHO). Finley did play three games but they were mid season and Dalton returned to beat us. So was that a deliberate tank ... or did they just plain suck? The Rams won in 2021, prior to that their record was 10-6, 9-7, 13-3, 11-5, 4-12, 7-9, 6-10, 7-9, 7-8, 2-14, 7-9, 1-15. So did they tank in 2009 and 2011 to build towards that SB win 10 years later? Or was the 4-12 record in 2016 their masterclass in tanking ... where they had the 44th pick in 2018 draft as their highest pick (Gerald Everett, TE)? I'm really failing to see the "tank" in any of these instances. Yet I keep hearing how teams do it "all the time". But oh yes, the infamous Jacksonville Jaguars tank of 2020 to secure the mighty Trevor. Cleverly orchestrated by the (fired mid-year) GM Dave Caldwell and (fired at year end) HC Doug Marrone. Such geniuses to turn the team around by sacrificing their own jobs. So again, was that a deliberate tank ... or did they just plain suck? =========================================================================== On the flip side - as to the benefit (or not) of winning games when you're eliminated. My view is based on the players in the locker room and the team you are trying to build. Do you build a winner by encouraging losing? Do you get guys coming into camp the following year and putting body and soul into their game, knowing that you as HC told them to lie down and lose for you last year? Or knowing that the team they are supposed to play hard for doesn't play hard in return? Losing begets losing. I'm not saying that beating Washington two weeks ago means we will win more games in 2024 - but if we had elected to lose it would lead to more losses ongoing. Players check out, look to leave, you keep turning over your roster, FAs avoid you, coaches get hired and fired, and losing permeates the organisation. We're already bad enough at it all without choosing to be even worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlito1171 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 To be fair we've never actually WENT for higher draft picks....we've just been bad, and even through that we'll still win meaningless games at the end of our season to kill positioning. All those times we've picked in the 6-8 range, look at the players taken in the 1-5 range where we should have picked if we were intentionally trying to get a higher pick like you alluded to..... The one time we semi successfully tanked it netted us Sauce Gardner(And Garrett but that was Seattle's Pick).......I won't count Zach because if we successfully tanked that year we would have had TLaw..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 37 minutes ago, jamesr said: How did the Colts tank and have it lead to a Superbowl win? They won it in 2007, and prior to that their record was 14-2, 12-4, 13-3, 12-4, 12-4, 10-6, 6-10, 10-6, 13-3. Peyton Manning come to mind for you? How did they get the # 1 overall pick needed to take him, ya think? They also drafted John Elway and Andrew Luck with # 1 overall picks. It didn't work with those guys, of course, but they were still elite prospects when they were taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 30 minutes ago, jamesr said: On the flip side - as to the benefit (or not) of winning games when you're eliminated. My view is based on the players in the locker room and the team you are trying to build. Do you build a winner by encouraging losing? Do you get guys coming into camp the following year and putting body and soul into their game, knowing that you as HC told them to lie down and lose for you last year? Or knowing that the team they are supposed to play hard for doesn't play hard in return? Losing begets losing. I'm not saying that beating Washington two weeks ago means we will win more games in 2024 - but if we had elected to lose it would lead to more losses ongoing. Players check out, look to leave, you keep turning over your roster, FAs avoid you, coaches get hired and fired, and losing permeates the organisation. We're already bad enough at it all without choosing to be even worse. So you have no evidence for the flip side of the argument. Just a bunch of cliche bullsh*t. Most of the teams who tank are replacing half their roster the following offseason. Hardly any of those guys that are there for the meaningless wins return. Think 2020 Jets. Who from that 2-14 roster was still there even 2 years later? Quinnen.....and who else? Once you're out of the playoff picture, playing for pride isn't really a thing no matter how you old school guys like to think it is. No one cares. They're already making offseason plans once they're mathematically eliminated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesr Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said: Peyton Manning come to mind for you? How did they get the # 1 overall pick needed to take him, ya think? They also drafted John Elway and Andrew Luck with # 1 overall picks. It didn't work with those guys, of course, but they were still elite prospects when they were taken. So they were all-in on tanking when they won 3 of their last 6 games? Or just really bad? Also cost the HC his job, again very noble of him. The Luck year is about the only one I can look at and say ... yeah, I'll give you that one. Curtis Painter (IIRC) at QB the whole year. But yet again, Caldwell got fired that year - the same noble sacrifice to make his ex-employer better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 1 minute ago, jamesr said: So they were all-in on tanking when they won 3 of their last 6 games? Or just really bad? Also cost the HC his job, again very noble of him. The Luck year is about the only one I can look at and say ... yeah, I'll give you that one. Curtis Painter (IIRC) at QB the whole year. But yet again, Caldwell got fired that year - the same noble sacrifice to make his ex-employer better. Does it really matter if the tanking is unintentional or not? The point is these teams didn't f**k up their draft positions with meaningless December wins to get where they got. The Rams were the worst franchise of the 2000s. They're no longer a loser franchise. Why? Lot's of early picks and stockpiling of young talent. The trade down from # 2 overall with Washington (RG3 deal) set them up for the next decade. They got to that # 2 spot by sucking/tanking. Same thing with the Bengals and Jaguars. Whether they accidentally tanked or not isn't really relevant. They didn't f**k up their draft positions with meaningless December wins and that's what we're talking about here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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