Scouts take on Brock Bowers - merged

[Jet Nut]

27 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I provided the link and the time stamp!

Except he says he has him graded 7 but he picked him to go to the Colts because teams don’t have a need earlier.  Not the same slant as he doesn’t deserve to be picked earlier than 15.  That’s all.

[Jet_Engine1]

28 minutes ago, slats said:

Please list all the 6’3”, 235lb guys who have dominated on offense at the NFL level. 

We get it. You obviously don't like the kid. Good for you. 

 

Not target #1 for me, but regardless of where/when he goes, I think your "concerns" will wind up being totally baseless. And that's just MY opinion. And guess what?  Its just message board BS. 

 

I think Bowers will be a good NFL player for a long time because he demonstrated on the NCAA level that he's dominant, and after 2 Mackey Awards and taking over games regularly in the SEC, he'll keep getting better. Conversely, I think Caleb Williams is a turd of a human being that doesn't give a sh*t about Football and will bust as hard as Wilson, and the "experts" have him as the #1 prospect. 

 

Let's get back to this in 5-7 years and revisit.

[T0mShane]

2 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

We get it. You obviously don't like the kid. Good for you. 

 

Not target #1 for me, but regardless of where/when he goes, I think your "concerns" will wind up being totally baseless. And that's just MY opinion. And guess what?  Its just message board BS. 

 

I think Bowers will be a good NFL player for a long time because he demonstrated on the NCAA level that he's dominant, and after 2 Mackey Awards and taking over games regularly in the SEC, he'll keep getting better. Conversely, I think Caleb Williams is a turd of a human being that doesn't give a sh*t about Football and will bust as hard as Wilson, and the "experts" have him as the #1 prospect. 

 

Let's get back to this in 5-7 years and revisit.

My prediction with Bowers is that he shows a lot of promise early but spends a lot of time on IR. He plays a physical style of football and I don’t know that he’s going to hold up on the pro level. 

[slats]

1 minute ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

We get it. You obviously don't like the kid. Good for you. 

 

Not target #1 for me, but regardless of where/when he goes, I think your "concerns" will wind up being totally baseless. And that's just MY opinion. And guess what?  Its just message board BS. 

 

I think Bowers will be a good NFL player for a long time because he demonstrated on the NCAA level that he's dominant, and after 2 Mackey Awards and taking over games regularly in the SEC, he'll keep getting better. Conversely, I think Caleb Williams is a turd of a human being that doesn't give a sh*t about Football and will bust as hard as Wilson, and the "experts" have him as the #1 prospect. 

 

Let's get back to this in 5-7 years and revisit.

Both those guys scare me, fwiw. 
 
I’d love Bowers if we were talking about him in the fourth round. I think just brushing over positional value and the fact that he’s small for that low valued position is a mistake. The kind of mistake that gets GMs fired. I’m not saying he’s gonna bust, but I am saying that the bust potential is way too high for pick #10. 

[Jet_Engine1]

3 minutes ago, slats said:

Both those guys scare me, fwiw. 
 
I’d love Bowers if we were talking about him in the fourth round. I think just brushing over positional value and the fact that he’s small for that low valued position is a mistake. The kind of mistake that gets GMs fired. I’m not saying he’s gonna bust, but I am saying that the bust potential is way too high for pick #10. 

With the Jets, the bust potential is ALWAYS high... lol

 

Final word on BB for me... I've heard a few people compare him to Jeremy Shockey of all people... Shockey was slightly larger and ran a 4.65 40... but was pretty damn good for a few years. 

 

 

[Claymation]

12 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I think he’s saying that fast guys are fast, but everyone reaches peak speed after the first twenty yards. The second twenty is known as the flying twenty. Lamar, Chris Johnson, and Garrett are fast through every stage of the 40. Most guys are not. 

I see where I made my mistake, RAS is saying at a moment in time DJ ran 20.45 MPH in his 40 time, and not the duration of the run. He ran 1.3 mph faster on that run than his 40. interesting

So Quinnen Williams is just as fast in his 40 as Conklin was. MPH wise.  

Ruckert didn't run, I believe he was dealing with an injury. 

[slats]

3 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

With the Jets, the bust potential is ALWAYS high... lol

 

Final word on BB for me... I've heard a few people compare him to Jeremy Shockey of all people... Shockey was slightly larger and ran a 4.65 40... but was pretty damn good for a few years. 

Shocked was 6’5”, 250, and had two seasons that might be considered elite TE production in the 860 yard range. The rest of his career, he never had a season over 666, and he was consistently banged up. So yeah, I could see a career like that for Bowers. 

[derp]

29 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

My prediction with Bowers is that he shows a lot of promise early but spends a lot of time on IR. He plays a physical style of football and I don’t know that he’s going to hold up on the pro level. 

I think he’s a fun case of how it’s easy to mix up floor and ceiling. Kind of like quarterbacks where general thinking has been that tools tell you a guy’s ceiling but we’re coming to understand it’s really what helps you understand the floor.

For Bowers I think all the YAC and gadget stuff gives a floor and his ceiling is going to be dictated by whether he can consistently just line up in front of a guy, beat him with route running, and make catches in contested situations. And to me that’s something we kind of don’t really know enough about given how he was used in college.

The pass catchers who end up being elite are the ones who can consistently produce on volume and I think even for the freaks that takes a degree of technical refinement. And to me if you’re taking a tight end tenth overall you want elite.

I think there’s a good bet he gets 700-800 yards and five touchdowns a year based on the tools and getting some gadget usage but I don't know where it goes from there. Even during his college trajectory, he produced off the bat but never took that leap. You can argue kind of moved towards being a consistent producer his junior year pre injury and was doing more stuff downfield but he doesn’t have a track record of volume production and consistent improvement even close to someone like Nabers and I think that’s what makes him hard to project.

All the yards after catch are great but the consistent boring production is what ends up separating good from elite. And it’s not that he hasn’t done it at all, but he just hasn’t done it a lot. So you have to be confident enough that what you’ve seen flashes of translates to consistent ball production going up a level. At a non premium position with no testing. It’s just a big leap to me. I want more of a layup if I’m investing with the tenth pick.

In a weird way it reminds me of Najee Harris too. The production is fine, I don’t entirely know how it translates, he’s playing with a bunch of other special players and it benefits him. Plus more national attention, increases the hype, and he gets overdrafted. If you take Bowers off of Georgia and he’s the exact same player on Vanderbilt, however he would have produced there, is he still someone we’re talking about at ten? I don’t know. I lean no but I could be wrong.

[Jet_Engine1]

14 minutes ago, slats said:

Shocked was 6’5”, 250, and had two seasons that might be considered elite TE production in the 860 yard range. The rest of his career, he never had a season over 666, and he was consistently banged up. So yeah, I could see a career like that for Bowers. 

That is definitely a possibility, but Bowers is about 10X the prospect Shockey was.... 

[slats]

7 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

That is definitely a possibility, but Bowers is about 10X the prospect Shockey was.... 

At 9/10ths the size. 😜

[TuscanyTile2]

I was listening to a discussion about the Jets' draft and they were talking about how they would have questions about JC Latham still caring about football once he got paid.  I would think at least one very positive thing we've heard about Bowers is his attitude.  Not that it makes him worth 1.10 but just throwing that into the discussion.

[Warfish]

21 minutes ago, derp said:

I think he’s a fun case of how it’s easy to mix up floor and ceiling. Kind of like quarterbacks where general thinking has been that tools tell you a guy’s ceiling but we’re coming to understand it’s really what helps you understand the floor.

For Bowers I think all the YAC and gadget stuff gives a floor and his ceiling is going to be dictated by whether he can consistently just line up in front of a guy, beat him with route running, and make catches in contested situations.

JMO, but I think you have it backwards.

His floor is his play lining up, normal plays, can he beat his man in both blocking and route running.  The play by play stuff.

His ceiling is how much of that YAC and "positional flexibility" he's able to translate to the NFL game.  The big play stuff.

I think he actually has a rather low floor, as undersized TE "tweener WR" often do, but a potentially high ceiling if his explosive big play ability does in fact work at the pro level regularly.  

As I say, JMO.  End of the day, I don't pick him, but I won't weep if we do.  What I will likely do is doubt him, till he proves it.

[rbstern]

59 minutes ago, slats said:

Both those guys scare me, fwiw. 
 
I’d love Bowers if we were talking about him in the fourth round. I think just brushing over positional value and the fact that he’s small for that low valued position is a mistake. The kind of mistake that gets GMs fired. I’m not saying he’s gonna bust, but I am saying that the bust potential is way too high for pick #10. 

 

4th round.

You're funny, whether you mean to be or not.

[Gastineau Lives]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Originally it was the ankle sprain, but as they got closer to Georgia’s Pro Day, it morphed into a hamstring. Seems likely that he just didn’t want to put up sh*tty lateral agility scores and went out of his way to avoid getting bad numbers committed to paper. 

Lol you’re ****in cuckoo

[derp]

23 minutes ago, Warfish said:

JMO, but I think you have it backwards.

His floor is his play lining up, normal plays, can he beat his man in both blocking and route running.  The play by play stuff.

His ceiling is how much of that YAC and "positional flexibility" he's able to translate to the NFL game.  The big play stuff.

I think he actually has a rather low floor, as undersized TE "tweener WR" often do, but a potentially high ceiling if his explosive big play ability does in fact work at the pro level regularly.  

As I say, JMO.  End of the day, I don't pick him, but I won't weep if we do.  What I will likely do is doubt him, till he proves it.

I think the way you are describing it is the conventional way of thinking, but my personal opinion is that we’re finding that it’s actually backwards.

The athletes and gimmick guys can produce based off their athleticism but end up limited by down in and down out consistency.

Guys who can run routes and win can be elite producers even if they don’t bring much else to the table.

It ultimately happens where guys are limited both ways but I think there are more elite producers who lack flash than there are elite producers who lack technical refinement.

[Rich Thornburgh]

20 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

There’s def a case to be made for him based on his college profile and analytics.

But for some reason, it just feels like if the Jets draft him, for whatever reason, it won’t work out.

He’s not gonna be able to outrun dudes in the NFL like that.

He’ll have to develop a lot as a route runner into more of an actual WR.

I think if he is used like Sam LaPorta he can be good in the nfl.  Will he be great like Kelce or Gronk? Probably not but he can be an 800 yard per season guy

[Rich Thornburgh]

11 hours ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

That is definitely a possibility, but Bowers is about 10X the prospect Shockey was.... 

shockey coming out of college was 6’5 250 and ran a 4.58 40

[Jet_Engine1]

4 hours ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

shockey coming out of college was 6’5 250 and ran a 4.58 40

Oh. I guess NFL Combine results were lying, then... lol. 

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

16 hours ago, T0mShane said:

My prediction with Bowers is that he shows a lot of promise early but spends a lot of time on IR. He plays a physical style of football and I don’t know that he’s going to hold up on the pro level. 

Yeah I share this concern on Bowers.

As a TE there’s no real way to avoid the requisite physicality,  but just as an aside:

One of Russ’s best abilities has been how he plays a scrambling freewheeling brand of QB while managing to avoid any big, direct shots.

It’s an underrated skill that requires thought, training, split-second awareness, and intention.

Russ will slide or step out of bounds or turn his body slightly at just the right moment to avoid a MW Milano type buzzsaw hit.

RG3 and Luck weren’t as proficient in this regard and it, combined with GM malpractice, abbreviated their careers.

[JPPT1974]

Well hope you all can figure how to utilize Brock Bowers. As just hope he can be healthy and consistent. Could be onto something for him.

[Matt39]

5 hours ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Oh. I guess NFL Combine results were lying, then... lol. 

Shockey never ran

[Gastineau Lives]

10 hours ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

shockey coming out of college was 6’5 250 and ran a 4.58 40

Ooh look she’s playing tight end!

[Jet_Engine1]

2 hours ago, Matt39 said:

Shockey never ran

Ever? Then all of the times are LIES, and we STILL don't know if he's fast enough for the NFL.

 

Oh, the humanity!!

[Gastineau Lives]

Bowers targets at or behind line of scrimmage:
2021 and 2022 with Moncken OC and Bennett QB - 41 of 144 28%
2023 with Bobo OC and Beck QB 35 of 72 48%

2023 first half targets - 58% at or behind LOS
2023 second half - 38% at or behind LOS

They obviously didn’t trust Beck at the beginning of the season. 66 percent of his first 30 passes to Bowers were at or behind LOS

[artemusclyde]

Bowers is going to the Jets. We literally drafted a guy cause he jumped over cars last year. Well, guess what Bowers has been working on? Backflips, you can't tell me the Jets aren't seeing this and salivating over his car jumping potential?

 

[Gastineau Lives]

9 minutes ago, artemusclyde said:

Bowers is going to the Jets. We literally drafted a guy cause he jumped over cars last year. Well, guess what Bowers has been working on? Backflips, you can't tell me the Jets aren't seeing this and salivating over his car jumping potential?

 

Psst it’s probably something more

I guess if he made a cooking video you’d say we were drafting him because Denzel Mims got salmonella

[Claymation]

3 hours ago, Matt39 said:

Shockey never ran

TE Jeremy Shockey, 4.64 (2002)

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/draft/2002-combine.htm

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

39 minutes ago, artemusclyde said:

Bowers is going to the Jets. We literally drafted a guy cause he jumped over cars last year. Well, guess what Bowers has been working on? Backflips, you can't tell me the Jets aren't seeing this and salivating over his car jumping potential?

 

He can do that but won't run a 40 or 3-cone for scouts? 😂 🫢

Would be hard to do that with torn hamstring.

Stuff like this vid would only serve to piss fans off more if he busts.

[#27TheDominator]

20 minutes ago, Claymation said:

TE Jeremy Shockey, 4.64 (2002)

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/draft/2002-combine.htm

Not saying that is wrong, but I would be careful with that.  That site has (or had) Fitzgerald running a 4.48 at the combine, when he did not run.  He ran at Pitt.  That is better than nflcombine.com which has Fitzgerald running a 4.63 when he did not run.  Like the Jerry Rice 4.71 there are a bunch of 40 times out there on the internet that never happened.  Many of them have full articles written about these fictitious 40 times.

I *think* Shockey ran around a 4.60 at his pro day which would have been hand timed and subject to a wide array (I have seen 4.58 to 4.64) - like Jamal Adams pro day 40 which was probably in the low 4.5s but has been quoted as 4.33 because some joker threw up a tweet saying he ran 4.33 and it remains to this day as if it were "evidence."  

[Jetkwondo]

On 4/21/2024 at 11:38 AM, TuscanyTile2 said:

I was listening to a discussion about the Jets' draft and they were talking about how they would have questions about JC Latham still caring about football once he got paid.  I would think at least one very positive thing we've heard about Bowers is his attitude.  Not that it makes him worth 1.10 but just throwing that into the discussion.

Bowers has a great attitude and is an extremely hard worker which is why I would be ok with him if they take him at 10, though I prefer one of the top 3 WR's, especially for this season.

[Claymation]

34 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Not saying that is wrong, but I would be careful with that.  That site has (or had) Fitzgerald running a 4.48 at the combine, when he did not run.  He ran at Pitt.  That is better than nflcombine.com which has Fitzgerald running a 4.63 when he did not run.  Like the Jerry Rice 4.71 there are a bunch of 40 times out there on the internet that never happened.  Many of them have full articles written about these fictitious 40 times.

I *think* Shockey ran around a 4.60 at his pro day which would have been hand timed and subject to a wide array (I have seen 4.58 to 4.64) - like Jamal Adams pro day 40 which was probably in the low 4.5s but has been quoted as 4.33 because some joker threw up a tweet saying he ran 4.33 and it remains to this day as if it were "evidence."  

https://247sports.com/college/miami/longformarticle/nfl-combine-the-fastest-40-yard-dash-times-for-miami-hurricanes-144301011/#1377372

[#27TheDominator]

11 hours ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

Oh. I guess NFL Combine results were lying, then... lol. 

Not sure what you are laughing at.  They must be lying since he did not run at the combine.  As I posted earlier, these sites are notoriously full of sh*t and the people that quote them end up being full of sh*t too, even when they don't mean to be.  There are tons of posts about Jerry Rice running 4.71 or Larry Fitzgerald running 4.63 at the combine which never happened.  I think Shockey ran at his pro day.  Hand-timed and quotes ranged from 4.58 to 4.64.  Not sure they have an "official" time.  It just depends who held the stopwatch. 

[Larz]

On 4/21/2024 at 10:54 AM, T0mShane said:

My prediction with Bowers is that he shows a lot of promise early but spends a lot of time on IR. He plays a physical style of football and I don’t know that he’s going to hold up on the pro level. 

Yeah the SEC is known as the slow and weak conference 

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

7 minutes ago, Larz said:

Yeah the SEC is known as the slow and weak conference 

Dee Milliner looked good playing in the SEC too 🤣

[rbstern]

2 hours ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Bowers targets at or behind line of scrimmage:
2021 and 2022 with Moncken OC and Bennett QB - 41 of 144 28%
2023 with Bobo OC and Beck QB 35 of 72 48%

2023 first half targets - 58% at or behind LOS
2023 second half - 38% at or behind LOS

They obviously didn’t trust Beck at the beginning of the season. 66 percent of his first 30 passes to Bowers were at or behind LOS

 

With Bobo back at the offensive helm in 2023, I thought the play calling started off shaky; pretty much my worry when he came back to fill Monken's shoes.  It seemed to take Bobo the first half of the season to understand what Monken was doing the previous two years.  And it's probably fair to say they were seeing if Carson Beck could be fully trusted.

Speaking of which:  Beck would look great in a Jets uni in 2025.  Incredibly fast release and top-shelf accuracy.  Mark it down.