Scouts take on Brock Bowers - merged

[Jet Nut]

6 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Najee Harris had 'ankle issues' and declined all testing. Fella had a lot of tape in the SEC and 30 TD's @ Bama. Looked great in big games. 

But Najee wasn't generational, sure, fair. Tremendously productive in the SEC, though.

Plays like Chris Ivory in a down year in the NFL tho. 

I'm asking about the 'generational' ones - they usually test and show it? 

We're looking at an incomplete resume. 

So you’re thinking his forty would have dropped him a notch.  
Size and strength weren’t in the mix.  And Harris proves that combine numbers would have shown anything. 
Think anyone is complaining about Naji Harris in Pitt?  1200 yards as a rookie, 3 1000 yard seasons out of three with crap at QB?  

[Jet Nut]

2 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

 

He was a great college football player and I agree "he's fast."

But the debate isn't "is a good college football player" or "is he fast" the debate is whether we should draft him in the top ten of the NFL draft which is a pretty different debate for an undersized TE who didn't test.

Caleb didn’t test he’s going 1st overall.  MHJ didn’t test, he’s going to be the first non QB picked.  
It’s not a big deal yet every year there’s someone who doesn’t test that fans see more of an issue than teams with FOs do and pick 

[Rich Thornburgh]

1 hour ago, UntouchableCrew said:

He doesn't even have a real position in the NFL. How could a player like that be "bust proof?" He could easily end up as a big slot receiver who struggles to get separation at the NFL level or as a too small in-line TE that is a liability in the run game. You're going to need to have a plan for how to use him which is the opposite of bust proof.

Remember when Zach was bust proof because Chris Simms said he was better than Trevor Lawrence 

[Gastineau Lives]

7 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

 

He was a great college football player and I agree "he's fast."

But the debate isn't "is a good college football player" or "is he fast" the debate is whether we should draft him in the top ten of the NFL draft which is a pretty different debate for an undersized TE who didn't test.

Yeah it sucks that he's only 195 lbs. because he didn't want the world to see his skinny legs. That's my one concern.

[RedBeardedSavage]

4 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

So you’re thinking his forty would have dropped him a notch.  
Size and strength weren’t in the mix.  And Harris proves that combine numbers would have shown anything. 
Think anyone is complaining about Naji Harris in Pitt?  1200 yards as a rookie, 3 1000 yard seasons out of three with crap at QB?  

Oh no

Your argument is that Najee is good? 

[Rich Thornburgh]

1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

Caleb didn’t test he’s going 1st overall.  MHJ didn’t test, he’s going to be the first non QB picked.  
It’s not a big deal yet every year there’s someone who doesn’t test that fans see more of an issue than teams with FOs do and pick 

Caleb is the consensus #1 overall pick and MHJ’s dad was arguably one of the greatest Wide receivers ever and he comes from a program that puts out all pro WRs every year

 

Bowers hiding his 40 time is a huge red flag

[Gastineau Lives]

1 minute ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

Remember when Zach was bust proof because Chris Simms said he was better than Trevor Lawrence 

Remember when Zach won Best quarterback in the nation two years in a row and won two national championships and some people called him the best qb prospect ever?

[Jet Nut]

2 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Oh no

Your argument is that Najee is good? 

Oh no, it’s your insistence that a workout would have changed Pitt picking him 24th overall.  
Because you’re imagining something would have said no to wasting a 24th pick on Harris.  
That’s not a take I would make

[Jet Nut]

7 minutes ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

Remember when Zach was bust proof because Chris Simms said he was better than Trevor Lawrence 

Actually no.

[slats]

35 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

There’s tons of tape that shows his speed, how he can run away from defenders.  We know he’s fast.
Im not defending Bowers, he’s not my first choice at 10 but if one of the top 3 WRs, the 1st didn’t test, or the top OL are gone I would avoid Bowers  because I don’t know if he would have ran a 4.5 40 after a training program didn’t drop his 40 from a 4.6 to a 4.5.  His speed is more than obvious in his game tape.  

More and more players are skipping testing.  At least 3 of the very top are this year. 

The tale of the tape between MHjr and Bowers could not be further apart. MH is a prototypically sized premium position player who did all the things you hope for from a top WR, including destroying a record number of double teams. Everything on tape translates to how you’d expect to use him in the pros. 
 
Conversely, Bowers caught 48% of his passes uncontested behind the LOS. He did the least amount of work in the critical 0-9 yard range that actually makes TEs valuable; being able to convert those 4, 5, 8 yard first downs. He’s not gonna be expected to do that on a swing pass in the pros. The work he did beyond 10 yards was often schemed open for him, too. He’s undersized. His entire game is based on his speed and agility, and yet he refused to test when testing could’ve pushed him up the boards (MHjr can’t get any higher). As a smallish player at a non-premium position, not testing is a red flag for me. And if the reason that he didn’t test is because his hamstring wasn’t right, that doesn’t make it any better. 

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

9 minutes ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

Caleb is the consensus #1 overall pick and MHJ’s dad was arguably one of the greatest Wide receivers ever and he comes from a program that puts out all pro WRs every year

Bowers hiding his 40 time is a huge red flag

MPJ at #10 would make more sense than Bowers

It’s not happening but would piss off Rodgers and Sean Payton and the Vikings and anybody else looking for a QB

If he can stay healthy, I think MPJ will be good to great

If I had to guess:

Drake Maye and JJ Mac will bust 

Caleb will be good not great

Jayden will be good to great

Theres no value only downside in drafting a TE at 10 unless they are instantly a top-3 TE in the league 

On the other hand, drafting a franchise QB at 10 is obviously worth it

3 U of W WRs are going to get drafted.  MPJ was the guy getting them the ball.

[Jet Nut]

54 minutes ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

Caleb is the consensus #1 overall pick and MHJ’s dad was arguably one of the greatest Wide receivers ever and he comes from a program that puts out all pro WRs every year

Bowers hiding his 40 time is a huge red flag

We’ll see how much of a red flag it is Thursday night I guess.  We’ll see if he drops out of the top 10 or 15, whatever.  
Like I said, I hope a top WR is available and that where we go. 

[Jet Nut]

8 minutes ago, slats said:

The tale of the tape between MHjr and Bowers could not be further apart. MH is a prototypically sized premium position player who did all the things you hope for from a top WR, including destroying a record number of double teams. Everything on tape translates to how you’d expect to use in the pros. 
 
Conversely, Bowers caught 48% of his passes uncontested behind the LOS. He did the least amount of work in the critical 0-9 yard range that actually makes TEs valuable; being able to convert those 4, 5, 8 yard first downs. He’s not gonna be expected to do that on a swing pass in the pros. The work he did beyond 10 yards was often schemed open for him, too. He’s undersized. His entire game is based on his speed and agility, and yet he refused to test when testing could’ve pushed him up the boards (MHjr can’t get any higher). As a smallish player at a non-premium position, not testing is a red flag for me. And if the reason that he didn’t test is because his hamstring wasn’t right, that doesn’t make it any better. 

None of this says he can’t be used 0-9 yards off the OL or testing at a combine would change thinking he couldn’t/could.  Your argument is fine if we’re talking why we’re against him at 10.  I’m hoping for a WR.  None of this would change if his 4.5 was confirmed.  

[Claymation]

17 minutes ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

Remember when Zach was bust proof because Chris Simms said he was better than Trevor Lawrence 

no, i don't remember. Im sure someone or a few said it, but that wasn't the consensus.

[Claymation]

10 minutes ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

MPJ at #10 would make more sense than Bowers

It’s not happening but would piss off Rodgers and Sean Payton and the Vikings and anybody else looking for a QB

If he can stay healthy, I think MPJ will be good to great

If I had to guess:

Drake Maye and JJ Mac will bust 

Caleb will be good not great

Jayden will be good to great

Theres no value only downside in drafting a TE at 10 unless they are instantly a top-3 TE in the league 

On the other hand, drafting a franchise QB at 10 is obviously worth it

3 U of W WRs are going to get drafted.  MPJ was the guy getting them the ball.

Who the "F" is MPJ?

[Rich Thornburgh]

1 hour ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Remember when Zach won Best quarterback in the nation two years in a row and won two national championships and some people called him the best qb prospect ever?

The greatest tight end prospect ever shouldn’t be hiding his 40 time

[RedBeardedSavage]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Oh no, it’s your insistence that a workout would have changed Pitt picking him 24th overall.  
Because you’re imagining something would have said no to wasting a 24th pick on Harris.  
That’s not a take I would make

If Najee ran a 4.6, I doubt Pitt would’ve taken him in the first round. 

Who is the last RB that ran a 4.6 that went in the first round?

“Trust the tape, bro”. It’s like well, there have been plenty of great college players whose game just did not translate to the NFL. 

As @slats said earlier in this thread, and I’m paraphrasing here, “If his game is yards-after-catch, then I’d like to see if that translates. One of the easiest ways to see that is through athletic testing.” If dude ran sub 4.5 with a sub 6.8ish 3 cone and a good 10 yard split, I’d think “alright, what he’s done in college seems like it will translate.”

At this point, that information is not available to us. 

Add on top of that positional value, his lack of prototypical size, our needs at WR and OT, and a picture can easily be painted that this would be a very risky selection. 

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

2 hours ago, Claymation said:

Who the "F" is MPJ?

 

[JustInFudge]

7 hours ago, mrcoops said:

Bust-proof is a bold claim, considering the past history of 1st round TEs.

Elite talents at TE are very rare in the first round, and turn out to be disappointing more often than not.

Bowers is an exciting prospect, but he has extremely high expectations to meet if he goes top 10.

I'm excited to pick that guy at 10 we dont have extremely high expectations for!!!! 

[#27TheDominator]

The interesting thing to me would be if all you dudes get your wish and we pass on Bowers and then so does everybody else because of how he was used in college.  I'm sure Baltimore would love him at 30 even already having Andrews, Likely and Kolar.  We already know Monken knows how to use him.

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

7 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

The interesting thing to me would be if all you dudes get your wish and we pass on Bowers and then so does everybody else because of how he was used in college.  I'm sure Baltimore would love him at 30 even already having Andrews, Likely and Kolar.  We already know Monken knows how to use him.

Bengals probably want him.

But they also need a WR with Higgins likely gone next year.

[Jetpain]

Woody " We are keeping all our options open...we don't want to tip our hand on which way we are leaning"

 

[Larz]

3 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

He is a football player and i think he’s good but he seems like a souped up Richie Anderson.  And this is why TEs shouldn’t go that high, only a small handful of TEs have changed offenses over the decades. 

Oh man I loved me some Richie Anderson.  
 

yeah there are concerns with bowers for sure. Will Hackett know what to do with him ? He’s going to want WR money when his rookie deal is done etc. 

just really hope he goes to the NFC lol

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, Larz said:

Oh man I loved me some Richie Anderson.  
 

yeah there are concerns with bowers for sure. Will Hackett know what to do with him ? He’s going to want WR money when his rookie deal is done etc. 

just really hope he goes to the NFC lol

I keep reading about teams like Indy and jax who want to move up for a wr.  I can see a team getting a haul to move back.  Also I hope there’s a market for bowers.  The jets can get a day 2 pick and still get a tackle, that’s a win.   But yeah i think these 3 wrs are going to go quickly.

[playtowinthegame]

Joe Douglas is swinging for the fences in the 1st round. This could be his last draft, so may as well go out swinging. #YOGMO (You Only GM Once)

[Claymation]

37 minutes ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

 

I'll pass

[Lupz27]

On 4/18/2024 at 10:15 AM, mrcoops said:

I'm sort of hoping that Bowers goes in the top 9 picks, and takes this decision out of the Jets' hands. I just can't deal with this debate any more.

Personally, I am very torn on Bowers. I see the level of production, and it's impressive, but his relative lack of TE size and his FB/H-Back playing style does concern me.

He could be a unique talent at TE, of the type we have never seen before, or he could suck as a pro.  I'm not sure there's an in-between option.

And, with the Jets being the team potentially making the pick, that worries the hell out of me.

He reminds me of Chris Cooley.

Cooley posted a 8.75 RAS

I’m not wasting the 10th overall pick on Chris Cooley!

[Lupz27]

On 4/18/2024 at 11:55 AM, Matt39 said:

If Bowers has a career like Greg Olsen, would you sign up for that at 10?

Name is G Reg, gets head, drop my draws and show them my 3rd leg.

Legend 😂 

[Jack Straw]

This is just a ridiculous opinion, IMO.
He absolutely has huge bust potential.

Ridiculous opinions are what makes markets.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[Jack Straw]

He doesn't even have a real position in the NFL. How could a player like that be "bust proof?" He could easily end up as a big slot receiver who struggles to get separation at the NFL level or as a too small in-line TE that is a liability in the run game. You're going to need to have a plan for how to use him which is the opposite of bust proof.

Go watch Brock Bowers - he’s an excellent blocker for his size. One doesn’t unlearn the fundamentals of blocking.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[Jet Nut]

19 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

If Najee ran a 4.6, I doubt Pitt would’ve taken him in the first round. 

Who is the last RB that ran a 4.6 that went in the first round?

“Trust the tape, bro”. It’s like well, there have been plenty of great college players whose game just did not translate to the NFL. 

As @slats said earlier in this thread, and I’m paraphrasing here, “If his game is yards-after-catch, then I’d like to see if that translates. One of the easiest ways to see that is through athletic testing.” If dude ran sub 4.5 with a sub 6.8ish 3 cone and a good 10 yard split, I’d think “alright, what he’s done in college seems like it will translate.”

At this point, that information is not available to us. 

Add on top of that positional value, his lack of prototypical size, our needs at WR and OT, and a picture can easily be painted that this would be a very risky selection. 

I don’t know if any RB, even a beastly one like Harris has run a 4.6.  im sure there’s a history of 40s that say he’s not a 4.6 40 player while game tape also says he’s not a 4.6 40 guy.  Would it have stopped his getting picked at 24?  Maybe, maybe not.  He’d still be the guy who dominated at Alabama 

You seem to want to convince me he shouldn’t be a viable pick at 10, something I keep saying I don’t want to happen, he isn’t my 1st choice at 10.  But I’ll repeat again, if the top WRs and none of the OL they’re interested in are available he’s as good as any other pick IMO.  All the side talk of Najee Harris, TEs shouldn’t get picked at 10 whatever won’t change that 

 

[Warfish]

7 hours ago, Lupz27 said:

He reminds me of Chris Cooley.

Cooley posted a 8.75 RAS

I’m not wasting the 10th overall pick on Chris Cooley!

I’d love our team to HAVE a Chis Cooley……I just don’t know that that’s worth the #10 pick.

[RedBeardedSavage]

34 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

I don’t know if any RB, even a beastly one like Harris has run a 4.6.  im sure there’s a history of 40s that say he’s not a 4.6 40 player while game tape also says he’s not a 4.6 40 guy.  Would it have stopped his getting pieces at 24?  Maybe, maybe not.  He’d still be the guy who dominated at Alabama 

You seem to want to convince me he shouldn’t be a viable pick at 10, something I keep saying I don’t want to happen, isn’t my choice at 10.  But I’ll repeat again, if the top WRs and none of the OL they’re interested in are available he’s as good as any other pick IMO.  All the side talk of Najee Harris, TEs shouldn’t get picked at 10 whatever won’t change that 

Broadly speaking, because of the bold, we agree. We both want the elite receivers or OT's. 

We disagree about settling for Bowers, but it's all good. 

I bring up Najee because he's the last guy I can think of who dominated the SEC, refused to test and now looks pedestrian in the pros.

Anyway, it's moot at this point. I know I've definitely beat this subject to death. We'll find out whatsup next week. 

[Flashlite80]

On 4/17/2024 at 8:54 AM, OtherwiseHappyinLife said:

First, the scout who guessed Bowers runs a 4.8 should be discredited.

Bowers is a case you don’t over-analyze.  You put on 3 years of tape against the best competition in college football, against future NFL players and stars.  

1. How dominant was he?  Very

2. Did he step up in the biggest games?  Yes

3. Was he a mismatch against CBs, LBs, Safeties?  Yes because of his unique athletic profile:  combo of size, speed, explosiveness, contact balance, toughness

4. Did he jump off the screen?  Yes

5. Did teams find ways to stop him after 3 years?  His TDs did go down but his stats stand tall even in the face of more attention

6. What did opposing coaches like Nick Saban say about him?  ‘One of the premier players in college football’, ‘best TE in the country’, ‘a mismatch problem’, ‘a good blocker’

7. Are there red flags?  By all accounts, a great and humble kid

My guess is Odunze dominates as a third option to Wilson and Williams.  If it's Bowers, he is a matchup nightmare, especially if he gets the ball in his hands early.  I believe that is Rodgers specialty.  Further, he is a monster blocking in front of Breece.  So either one will make this team much better.

OT is not a starting position.  I wouldn't waste the 10th pick on someone I do not expect to start.  Wait until the 3rd or trade up to get Paul out of Houston.  Started 55 games at LT and had the highest pass protection grades of any OT in the draft.  If we do need someone because of injury, best that his strength is pass protection.

[slats]

8 hours ago, Flashlite80 said:

My guess is Odunze dominates as a third option to Wilson and Williams.  If it's Bowers, he is a matchup nightmare, especially if he gets the ball in his hands early.  I believe that is Rodgers specialty.  Further, he is a monster blocking in front of Breece.  So either one will make this team much better.

Bowers and Odunze both replace the same people in the lineup. Bowers isn’t going to step into the NFL playing TE, the Jets will need to redesign their offense for a lot more 12 personnel and Bowers will largely replace the Lazard/Gipson platoon in the slot. And when I look at that, I’m not sure I see all that much improvement in production. Lazard is taller than Bowers and has plenty of experience having success with Rodgers, while Gipson is a lot faster and twitchier. Bowers will be drawing the nickel CB in this scenario, where he will not be a matchup nightmare at all. Also, we can call him a willing blocker or an adequate blocker, but he’s no monster blocker. 
 
Now if they get Odunze, that could move Wilson into the slot, which would be a tremendous upgrade and a massive mismatch with two big WRs on the outside. That’s an upgrade. Or Nabers would probably start in the slot, which would also be devastating to unsuspecting slot CBs. Much bigger upgrade than Bowers, who might not be an upgrade at all. 

8 hours ago, Flashlite80 said:

OT is not a starting position.  I wouldn't waste the 10th pick on someone I do not expect to start.  Wait until the 3rd or trade up to get Paul out of Houston.  Started 55 games at LT and had the highest pass protection grades of any OT in the draft.  If we do need someone because of injury, best that his strength is pass protection.

You’re drafting in the first round for the next four or five years, not just now. An OT drafted #10 overall this year is very likely to see substantial field time behind the league’s most injured OL, and would be expected to be a starter beginning in 2025. Personally, I’m not a fan of another first round OL, but it’s not hard to see JD draft OL over a TE at #10.