Joe Douglas is not a "Terrible GM"

[jgb]

1 hour ago, CanadaSteve said:

IF Braelon Allen plays the first 4-5 weeks as he has been advertised, Breece Hall might be on the trade block so you don't have to pay him as a top 3 RB.  

Yes, we must win the draft capital and cap space biathlon!

[jgb]

3 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

https://forums.jetnation.com/topmembers/

Touche, Scott. Touche.

[Biggs]

22 hours ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

I see the usual suspects just dropped their pre-loaded Bot-Responses without even reading a word of what I wrote.

 

Cool. Good talk. I'm suddenly reminded of my childhood going to Mass, when the congregation just mumbles the responsorial reply "Lord, hear our prayer..." without even listening to what their praying for. Like an automatic email reply... lol

I submitted your post to the NY Times book review.   I want to see if it's worth reading before responding. 

[Jet_Engine1]

1 minute ago, Biggs said:

I submitted your post to the NY Times book review.   I want to see if it's worth reading before responding. 

[Biggs]

15 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

A new title might work "Is the Jets top 5 roster proof that alien body snatchers have invaded NJ"

[Larz]

When you have an owner with a league wide reputation of “why would you want to work for that guy?” like Woody you never get A list candidates to interview. 
 

The idea should be to hire a guy with the qualities a GM needs and let him learn and grow into the role. 
 

JD got everything he asked for. Woody gave him an asst GM and a mentor /consultant on the payroll. He got his guys big contracts. Woody significantly increased the scouting budget. 
 

The first year Saleh was here for some bizarre reason they decided to go with the “grow up together “ plan with a first time play caller on offense with a rookie QB and a QB room with like 6 career starts between the 3 guys. No veteran mentor backup that would support the rookie quarterback. 
Whiffed on his first 2 first round picks and others. 
Whiffed on his first couple day 1 free agents. 
I think he has shown the ability to learn and grow. 
got rid of the rat and leaker asst GM

negotiated an extremely difficult and complicated trade/contract for/with 8

 

This team is very talented and has a 2 year window for a ring 

 

Now he has to draft a QB next year round one, so he gets to sit for a year and extend Sauce, G5, JJ and Hall.
No easy task for sure but if he can transition from Rodgers to a young QB and extend the core 4 then he’s done an amazing job 

[kmnj]

5 minutes ago, Larz said:

When you have an owner with a league wide reputation of “why would you want to work for that guy?” like Woody you never get A list candidates to interview. 
 

The idea should be to hire a guy with the qualities a GM needs and let him learn and grow into the role. 
 

JD got everything he asked for. Woody gave him an asst GM and a mentor /consultant on the payroll. He got his guys big contracts. Woody significantly increased the scouting budget. 
 

The first year Saleh was here for some bizarre reason they decided to go with the “grow up together “ plan with a first time play caller on offense with a rookie QB and a QB room with like 6 career starts between the 3 guys. No veteran mentor backup that would support the rookie quarterback. 
Whiffed on his first 2 first round picks and others. 
Whiffed on his first couple day 1 free agents. 
I think he has shown the ability to learn and grow. 
got rid of the rat and leaker asst GM

negotiated an extremely difficult and complicated trade/contract for/with 8

 

This team is very talented and has a 2 year window for a ring 

 

Now he has to draft a QB next year round one, so he gets to sit for a year and extend Sauce, G5, JJ and Hall.
No easy task for sure but if he can transition from Rodgers to a young QB and extend the core 4 then he’s done an amazing job 

the bolded is both scary and sad-Joe for 6 years has executed our rebuild that has yielded him a record of about 40 games under 500 but at the same time his rebuild (unlike the lions, texans jags and bears ) is in a win now mode (really with this year being must win)-his rebuild is dependent on a 40 year old QB coming off a bad injury-his rebuild which has been a total failure as shown by his record is not even setting us up for the future-the future we are set up for having to find another QB... 

 

 

 

 

 

[ToonforPrez]

13 hours ago, Wit said:

He’s better than we have had in a while but he was terrible at getting a young QB and left tackle. Those two issues have killed the team. Most Zach though.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

And what about the Hits in the Draft and UDFA's? It seems everyone loves to gloss over the bad 2020 draft. Let's face it that draft did not produce much but he has been able to find some gems in the Draft following 2020 and beyond and has gotten rid of the stink that the previous GM before JD created. certainly, seems like people love to pick on those sticking points and try to move the goalposts to fit a narrative it's weird.

[bicketybam]

7 minutes ago, kmnj said:

the bolded is both scary and sad-Joe for 6 years has executed our rebuild that has yielded him a record of about 40 games under 500 but at the same time his rebuild (unlike the lions, texans jags and bears ) is in a win now mode (really with this year being must win)-his rebuild is dependent on a 40 year old QB coming off a bad injury-his rebuild which has been a total failure as shown by his record is not even setting us up for the future-the future we are set up for having to find another QB... 

 

 

 

 

 

Joe hasn't been here 6 years. He just completed his 5th. Just an FYI.

[kmnj]

Joe "rebuilds " around a 40 year old QB which is stupid and why they are in must win mode now

His Wilson busted pick ruined hopes of any rebuild that is sustainable  for the future

 

[Claymation]

 

[NorthCoastJetsFan]

I think that people either weren't aware or have forgotten how legendarily bad  that 2019 team was .Anybody with half a brain knew that it would take 4 or 5 years to get to a competitive level.

I will never say that Zach was a good pick, but sometimes I wonder how much things would be different if Greg Knapp hadn't been killed in a bicycle accident before Zach's first training camp. We'll never know how much an excellent QB coach could have changed things.

[Sperm Edwards]

3 hours ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

I think it's hilarious how guys will say, "He ONLY has the 2022 Draft...". ONLY. 

The 2022 draft produced the OROY and DROY from the same class. Only one of the 3 First Round picks was actually the Jets own original Draft Picks (10 for Wilson was from the fleecing of Seattle, and they traded up to grab JJ). 

7 Selections, with 4 of them locked in as starters, 2 are significant role players (Ruckert and Clemons) and a swing/backup OT (Mitchell). But somehow those 7 Players make up the entire roster. Thats it.

LOL. 

 

Lets take a mistake JD made and really look at it... Bryce Huff. They scouted the guy, tabbed him as a priority UDFA and brought him in. He played for the Jets for 3 years, getting better every year... BUT he was never given a 3 Down full-time role. SO, he became annoyed and when offered a contract extension only signed a 1-year deal worth $4.3M in order to play it out and test FA. Recently, the Eagles made Huff the highest-paid non-quarterback undrafted player in NFL history. 

 

Douglas wasn't determining who plays, how much a player plays, or what ROLE the player would have. He found a player, the player was highly productive and effective, was offered an extension, but he didn't like how he was being utilized, so he signed with another team. Knowing that possibility existed, they drafted Will McDonald (A pick I understand but don't really like tbh).  So this specific example in a nutshell is a good exemplar for JD's tenure so far. Mixed Bag. As Dyatlov would say..."Not great, not terrible".

 

But he "only" has the '22 Draft... 

 

 

 

 

Yeah I don't have the biggest chubb for him -- even more recent flop moves like D.Brown & Cook last year are tough to swallow.

Rodgers is the elephant in the room in terms of not working out (yet), but there's still yet a good opportunity for that to turn around. And anyway despite how many didn't like it (I'm sure at least a few because they just dislike Rodgers off the field), it wasn't an unreasonable gamble. He was an all-time great QB, who rarely missed a snap/game, while the team was still starting Zach Wilson, and had no serious chance at drafting one of that draft class's better QB prospects (not that anyone other than Stroud or possibly Richardson looks like someone we'd yet want anyway, and would've cost a few year's worth of 1st rounders for the trade up from 13 to 3 for Richardson -- see SF moving up for Trey Lance). 

So while I can get past some of the bad draft picks (I don't know anything about these prospects myself, so all I could do is say "shoulda" with the benefit of hindsight), it's also true that even the best of them have massive whiffs themselves.

FA facepalms bother me more, because you have a better idea what you're buying, but also there's at least a slight grading curve for him because this franchise has dug itself so deeply for so long, there's a Jets tax from players because the best ones don't want to play here & have their once great/promising careers ended by this sorry-ass franchise.

I think that was at least some of the hope in adding Rodgers, too, which was to give the team some instant credibility to attract some FAs (not that that worked at all last year, but FA was already over by the time the trade went through). Anyway, like it's easier to attract Mike Williams on an incentive-heavy contract when Aaron Rodgers is the QB than when it's Zach Wilson or the previous (or next) stiff they draft to pretend to be a QB. 

[CanadaSteve]

3 hours ago, jgb said:

Yes, we must win the draft capital and cap space biathlon!

If Braelon Allen can do what Breece Hall can do, why would you pay Breece Hall $16 million more a year to do it so you can pay someone else you don't have a replacement for?  Seems kinda obvious from a good GM perspective.

[Matt39]

5 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

If Braelon Allen can do what Breece Hall can do, why would you pay Breece Hall $16 million more a year to do it so you can pay someone else you don't have a replacement for?  Seems kinda obvious from a good GM perspective.

Hall is the best player on the team. We’re letting him walk because a 4th round pick might be good?

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, NorthCoastJetsFan said:

I think that people either weren't aware or have forgotten how legendarily bad  that 2019 team was .Anybody with half a brain knew that it would take 4 or 5 years to get to a competitive level.

The roster was miserably bad but....4-5 years?  Ehhhh.  Imagine how much quicker the roster turnaround would have been had we drafted 1-2 of these guys who were available to us in the 2020-21 classes instead of who we took instead:

Instead of Becton:

• OT Tristan Wirfs
• WR CeeDee Lamb - Adam Gase and @T0mShane wanted him here (granted, maybe we don't take Garrett Wilson two years later, but then again....why not?)

Instead of Zach Wilson (either at 2 or after a trade down):

• WR Ja'Marr Chase
• OT Penei Sewell
• WR Jaylen Waddle
• WR Devonta Smith
• TE Kyle Pitts

Yeah, yeah.  I know that "hindsight is 20/20".  But there were plenty of posters here on JN telling JD to draft these guys at the time.  A GM needs to have a bit more foresight than some JN draftniks, no?

[jgb]

34 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

If Braelon Allen can do what Breece Hall can do, why would you pay Breece Hall $16 million more a year to do it so you can pay someone else you don't have a replacement for?  Seems kinda obvious from a good GM perspective.

And if Zach Wilson could do what Aaron Rodgers could do, he'd still be here.

[BornJetsFan1983]

On 8/21/2024 at 9:54 AM, Jet_Engine1 said:

Is he great? Nope. Is he top 15? Not today. But is he "terrible"? "Incompetent"? "Downright awful and should be fired tomorrow"? No. 

 

Right now, the Jets Roster is considered a Top 10 roster in the league, not by me or other random Message board posters, but by MANY Football pundits, commentators:

 

- With 2024 training camp and the season around the corner, the 33rd Team website ranked the Jets roster as the sixth best in the league and the No. 1 defense.

- "If all goes right for the New York Jets in 2024, they could have an argument for ranking even higher on this list," NFL writer Ian Valentino stated. 

- "They have the league's top cornerback, Sauce Gardner," according to NFL Senior Writer Marcus Mosher. "Although he has only been in the NFL for two seasons, he's been a two-time All-Pro selection and the 2022 AP Defensive Rookie of the Year. But Gardner isn't the only reason the Jets rank so highly on this list. Quinnen Williams might be the NFL's best defensive tackle. He is just as good against the run as he is as a pass-rusher. Williams is only 26 and has improved every season. Williams and Gardner might be the NFL's best duo. "And don't forget about Quincy Williams, who is coming off an All-Pro season at linebacker. The Jets have three All-Pro defenders who are all in the primes of their careers. For that reason alone, they are No. 1 on our list."

-  According to Pro Football Focus (PFF), the Jets’ roster is ranked 4th best in the NFL for 2024 

- "Jets have top 5 roster heading into 2024: Aaron Rodgers is the most important player for the Jets and the biggest factor for a potential Super Bowl run, but the Jets have set themselves up with a group of players around Rodgers that make up one of the best rosters on paper in the NFL" The Sporting News 5/31/2024

 

Thats just a quick snapshot of what the "Media" is saying about the roster Douglas has built. "Terrible" GMs don't get those kinds of articles written about them. 

 

Is Joe Douglas perfect? Is he great? No, he is not. But right now, the Jets are drafting to the mean of the NFL, instead of being an outlier for futility. There are plenty of mid round guys playing significant roles on the team from the past few drafts, and aside from two GLARING, OBVIOUS misses, the drafting has been pretty darn good of late:

-2021 was a bit... rough (more on that later), but AVT is a starting OG and when healthy and left at his natural position, seems like a very high ceiling player. Michael Carter II (DB) is a very good player for the team, and Jamien Sherwood (5th rounder) seems like he's the heir apparent to CJ Mosley.

-2022 Speaks for itself.

-2023 is a work in progress, but Tippman looks to have overcome his shotgun snap problems and is the starting OC. Will McDonald was a head-scratcher but if he fills the role of DPR and can put together a 10+ sack season, he's a valuable commodity. Zaire Barnes is a seems like solid depth (that's more than you expect from the typical 6th Rounder). Israel Abanikanda seems to have been eclipsed by other new RBs, but he has size, speed, and has flashed as a runner.

-The 2024 draft seems to be trending in the right direction, but it's still too early to really know. Olu Fashanu may be a lockdown OT for a decade once Tyron Smith moves on and the rest of the draft has plenty of talent with Braelin Allen seemingly the stand-out.

 

And over that time, let's not dismiss the UDFA's the Jets have brought in that are significant contributors (or were) to the team... Huff, Gipson, Brownlee, etc. This current Jets FO has found more UDFA Talent in the last few years than the organization as a whole did in the 25 years prior - since probably Chrebet. 

 

Free Agency: What a mixed bag. Carl Lawson (whose existence someone only recently reminded me of) was a swing and a miss. Dude was always hurt. Corey Davis... bro... WHO could have predicted he would just flake out and retire? I'm sorry, I know we have some ambiguous, nebulous inferences that there was some type of "Family problem" or possible, speculative "Health Issue" that led to his random and ill-timed retirement... but still. Retire during Pre-Season? Really? With ZERO explanation? And then the Jets bend over backwards for the guy, to the point that they granted him a free and clear release because he said he wanted to be "close to home"... and he goes and tries out for THE BILLS on August 14th? Umm, What?? Allen Lazard and Randall Cobb were swings at meeting two needs, WR Depth and making AROD happy. Cobb is gone, and Lazard, well, he needs to get his sh*t together this year. FA is almost always a crap shoot, but aside the current O-Line with Moses, Smith, and Simpson, the team is mostly built off the draft at this point. If the O-Line is top 10 this year, the FA record starts looking a LOT better...

 

The BAD

The 2020 Draft is, in no uncertain terms, a black hole, with Ashtyn Davis the sole survivor of the virtual "Covid Draft". Mekhi Becton seemingly found every pre-draft concern and majored in them. His impressive size and athleticism at 6'7 365lbs made him look like the prototype and he was productive in college. But there were issues there the Jets couldn't overcome. Denzel Mims remains an enigma, as he is now currently completely out of the league. The rest of that draft is... forgettable. Total miss. 2020 was Douglas' first draft as THE GM of a team. It was a weird year. He was dealing with Adam Gase. It was 4 years ago. The roster has completely flipped since that draft, and the consequences have been navigated. 2020 was a terrible draft, and it seems like a lot of us still have a bit of a hangover from it since Becton was only recently let go, but it has not been indicative of the way the draft has gone since...

 

THE GIANT, UGLY ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM

No, it isn't Becton, JD himself, me, or The Crusher.... 2021 First Round Pick Zach Wilson completely hamstrung any progress and seemingly negated any other talent advantage the Roster had. He was grossly over-drafted. They had Darnold under contract, and while he was floundering, he still could have been the cheap bridge QB to build around for a year. The flaws in Wilsons game were on tape, but a very low-level schedule of opponents and a dominant O-Line made him look statistically better than he really was. He was immature. Small. And he sunk ANY potential the team had for 3 full seasons. It's hard to argue what the bigger mistake is... DRAFTING Wilson at #2 or continuing to reinforce the failure that he was displaying for his entire career in NY. SO far, much of the criticism Douglas receives is directly tied to #2. The win-loss record. The underperforming Offense. The "noise" and distractions. This was a move that should not have been made... but once it was and it was revealed very quickly that the team had no future moving forward with an underperforming, floundering QB, alternative solutions needed to be implemented (A disinterested Joe Flacco, Mike White, Tim Boyle, and Trevor Siemien are NOT "Serious" backup plans). The team chose to baby and coddle the player and sink the prospects of 52 other players, a Multi-Billion Dollar franchise, and massive fanbase for unclear reasons. Was that Douglas' doing, or higher up the chain of command? We probably won't find out for a while, BUT it happened on JD's watch, so he gets to lie in that bed. 

 

SO, taking EVERYTHING into account over the past 5 years since JD was hired in June of 2019... is he a "terrible" GM? I would say No, he is not. He had a VERY rough start and has managed to overcome it. He took a roster that in 2019 was on an XFL level and transformed it into an arguable Top 10 level collection of players in the course of 4 years. This was not a team a few pieces away, this was a roster and an organization that was suffering from organizational, systemic toxicity and insanity from the Gase years. A Team DEVOID of talent, not just undermanned. There were mistakes made (lol), but right now, they have seemingly largely overcome. The Defense is Top 3 in the league... possibly better (Get your ass to work, Reddick). The Offense has a LOT of talent... Garret Wilson and Breece Hall are game changers. Allen may also be at that level, tbh. Still a little thin at WR for my taste, but if Mike Williams is 85% of who he was for the Chargers and manages to stay mostly available, there is potential for the Offense to be top 10 - IF Rodgers stays upright. Thankfully, the O-Line seems as solid as its been since the Brick/Mangold days ON PAPER. We shall see... 

 

Oh, and a final note... and be honest. If you went back to 2021 and told yourself, yeah, it looks like we're hurting at QB, but in a few years, we're going to have Aaron Rodgers at QB going into a season with good Offensive Playmakers, a Game changing Running Back, and a top 3 defense... you would have said, "Where do I sign up?".

 

Anyway, that's all I have for today. Go away now...

 

 

 

********Please pay attention*****

After enduring years of subpar leadership, the idea that Joe Douglas isn't a top-tier GM is not just misguided—it's outright offensive.

Joe Douglas is undoubtedly a top 5 GM in the league. His strategic moves, combined with the strong foundation he's built around the team, speak volumes about his capabilities. While it’s easy for fans and reporters to overlook his achievements because we haven't yet hoisted a trophy, that success is only a matter of time.

We've risen from the ashes to become a team on the cusp of greatness. This season, with a potential 13+ win record, the respect our team deserves will finally align with our performance. But it’s important to recognize that the lack of credit isn't due to Joe’s decisions—it’s because wins are the currency of respect in the NFL.

Just look at the Bills before Josh Allen. They spent years building a solid foundation, turning themselves from a laughingstock into contenders. It wasn’t immediate, but once the wins started piling up, so did the recognition. The same thing happened with the Patriots before their dynasty years. Joe Douglas has done the hard work, just as those GMs did, and now it’s our turn.

Make no mistake—our reputation as a losing team was well-earned from years of poor decisions. But Joe has righted the ship, and respect will follow soon. We’re already seeing glimpses of it in rankings, Madden ratings, and NFL coverage. Three years from now, it won’t be us but some other team that’s the punchline.

Joe Douglas has laid the groundwork for our success. Now, the wins will come, and with them, the respect we’ve long deserved.

[BornJetsFan1983]

58 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The roster was miserably bad but....4-5 years?  Ehhhh.  Imagine how much quicker the roster turnaround would have been had we drafted 1-2 of these guys who were available to us in the 2020-21 classes instead of who we took instead:

Instead of Becton:

• OT Tristan Wirfs
• WR CeeDee Lamb - Adam Gase and @T0mShane wanted him here (granted, maybe we don't take Garrett Wilson two years later, but then again....why not?)

Instead of Zach Wilson (either at 2 or after a trade down):

• WR Ja'Marr Chase
• OT Penei Sewell
• WR Jaylen Waddle
• WR Devonta Smith
• TE Kyle Pitts

Yeah, yeah.  I know that "hindsight is 20/20".  But there were plenty of posters here on JN telling JD to draft these guys at the time.  A GM needs to have a bit more foresight than some JN draftniks, no?

The most obvious problem for you take is that we could have drafted CeeDee and Chase and you probably wouldnt knwo their names today they woudl not be able to thrive on our team, we probably woudl ahve thwon them screen passed 5 yards behind the LOS

[Jet_Engine1]

5 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

********Please pay attention*****

After enduring years of subpar leadership, the idea that Joe Douglas isn't a top-tier GM is not just misguided—it's outright offensive.

Joe Douglas is undoubtedly a top 5 GM in the league. His strategic moves, combined with the strong foundation he's built around the team, speak volumes about his capabilities. While it’s easy for fans and reporters to overlook his achievements because we haven't yet hoisted a trophy, that success is only a matter of time.

We've risen from the ashes to become a team on the cusp of greatness. This season, with a potential 13+ win record, the respect our team deserves will finally align with our performance. But it’s important to recognize that the lack of credit isn't due to Joe’s decisions—it’s because wins are the currency of respect in the NFL.

Just look at the Bills before Josh Allen. They spent years building a solid foundation, turning themselves from a laughingstock into contenders. It wasn’t immediate, but once the wins started piling up, so did the recognition. The same thing happened with the Patriots before their dynasty years. Joe Douglas has done the hard work, just as those GMs did, and now it’s our turn.

Make no mistake—our reputation as a losing team was well-earned from years of poor decisions. But Joe has righted the ship, and respect will follow soon. We’re already seeing glimpses of it in rankings, Madden ratings, and NFL coverage. Three years from now, it won’t be us but some other team that’s the punchline.

Joe Douglas has laid the groundwork for our success. Now, the wins will come, and with them, the respect we’ve long deserved.

 

I honestly can't tell if this is serious or satire. 

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

The most obvious problem for you take is that we could have drafted CeeDee and Chase and you probably wouldnt knwo their names today they woudl not be able to thrive on our team, we probably woudl ahve thwon them screen passed 5 yards behind the LOS

Garrett Wilson has thrived with dogsh*t QB play, dude.  Your premise is thus silly.  The cream rises to the top in this league.  

[BornJetsFan1983]

22 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Garrett Wilson has thrived with dogsh*t QB play, dude.  Your premise is thus silly.  The cream rises to the top in this league.  

not true. Wilson has been stifled and held back considerably. Garret wilson should be in the same conversation as those players but he is not. Outside NY he is not given respect. 

Your pretend wilson is seen as top WR but he is not. He has the talent and could be top wr in league...

[doitny]

16 hours ago, Jets0712 said:

I’d normally agree with this statement
But in this case…Nope. Hall just turned 23
Was a Steal in the 2nd rd. can run/catch quintessential 3 down back. Kid has it ALL
And it’s only the beginning…you pay him when it’s time!!!


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

i agree with the Hall pick, but if he asks for Barkley type money he might be let go.

i think thats why JD drafted 2 RBs and has draft one in each of his drafts. he is trying to find Halls replacement in case his money demands get too crazy.

the Jets are in uncharted territory for this franchise. we never had big cap money going to a QB. but now we will the next 2 years. we cant go crazy with these contracts. if Allen or Davis can be good dont be surprised if Hall goes because we need the money for GW, Sause, Quincy, and JJ. that is what i think will be the move if one of those guys can step up.

[Jetsfan80]

51 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

not true. Wilson has been stifled and held back considerably. Garret wilson should be in the same conversation as those players but he is not. Outside NY he is not given respect. 

Your pretend wilson is seen as top WR but he is not. He has the talent and could be top wr in league...

Then why was Garrett Wilson the OROY if no one knew who he was?  Cmon.  

Has he been held back?  Absolutely.  100 %  But is he an “unknown”?  Insanity to try to make that argument.  You’re really arguing that you shouldn’t draft good players (like Lamb or Chase) because they’ll be held back?  Yikes.  

Every time you post you expose yourself as the Dunning-Kruger poster child on this board.  It’s uncanny.  

[GangGreened]

1 hour ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

Your pretend wilson is seen as top WR but he is not. He has the talent and could be top wr in league...

He is going in round 1 or early round 2 of every fantasy draft. What are you even talking about?

[Rich Thornburgh]

4 hours ago, jgb said:

And if Zach Wilson could do what Tyrod Taylor could do, he'd still be here.

Fixed

[varjet]

I think these QB contracts have made GMs a bit irresponsible. 

JD is defended by guys like Charley Casserly who interviewed 23 GMs, and all have Zach Wilson as QB2, with Lawrence QB1.   I believe that.

But just because someone is ranked (mistakenly, maybe) the second best QB in the draft, does not mean you pick him second in the draft.  There have been plenty of drafts were there were NO QBs taken in the first round.  The GMs did not think there was one good enough.  Remember the year that the Bills took EJ Manuel as the only first round QB.   I think they wish they had that pick back.  

it is very hard to sign your drafted first round QB to a second tier extension.  The Jaguars did it with Blake Bortles.  The Giants sort of did it with Daniel Jones.  I think they both regret that too.  

I personally believe that JD was encouraged to take a chance on Wilson to avoid extending Darnold.  At this point, Darnold may be starting on a playoff quality team.  Zach Wilson is inches from being cut.   The fact that JD has not been fired already tells me that there were others complicit in that pick.  

[Integrity28]

How long has he been here? Do we have a future at QB?

Oh, okay then.

[Testaverde9819]

9 hours ago, NorthCoastJetsFan said:

I think that people either weren't aware or have forgotten how legendarily bad  that 2019 team was .Anybody with half a brain knew that it would take 4 or 5 years to get to a competitive level.

I will never say that Zach was a good pick, but sometimes I wonder how much things would be different if Greg Knapp hadn't been killed in a bicycle accident before Zach's first training camp. We'll never know how much an excellent QB coach could have changed things.

How did the Texans rebuild in one year?

[mfmartin]

Is he great? Nope. Is he top 15? Not today. But is he "terrible"? "Incompetent"? "Downright awful and should be fired tomorrow"? No. 
 
Right now, the Jets Roster is considered a Top 10 roster in the league, not by me or other random Message board posters, but by MANY Football pundits, commentators:
 
- With 2024 training camp and the season around the corner, the 33rd Team website ranked the Jets roster as the sixth best in the league and the No. 1 defense.
- "If all goes right for the New York Jets in 2024, they could have an argument for ranking even higher on this list," NFL writer Ian Valentino stated. 
- "They have the league's top cornerback, Sauce Gardner," according to NFL Senior Writer Marcus Mosher. "Although he has only been in the NFL for two seasons, he's been a two-time All-Pro selection and the 2022 AP Defensive Rookie of the Year. But Gardner isn't the only reason the Jets rank so highly on this list. Quinnen Williams might be the NFL's best defensive tackle. He is just as good against the run as he is as a pass-rusher. Williams is only 26 and has improved every season. Williams and Gardner might be the NFL's best duo. "And don't forget about Quincy Williams, who is coming off an All-Pro season at linebacker. The Jets have three All-Pro defenders who are all in the primes of their careers. For that reason alone, they are No. 1 on our list."
-  According to Pro Football Focus (PFF), the Jets’ roster is ranked 4th best in the NFL for 2024 
- "Jets have top 5 roster heading into 2024: Aaron Rodgers is the most important player for the Jets and the biggest factor for a potential Super Bowl run, but the Jets have set themselves up with a group of players around Rodgers that make up one of the best rosters on paper in the NFL" The Sporting News 5/31/2024
 
Thats just a quick snapshot of what the "Media" is saying about the roster Douglas has built. "Terrible" GMs don't get those kinds of articles written about them. 
 
Is Joe Douglas perfect? Is he great? No, he is not. But right now, the Jets are drafting to the mean of the NFL, instead of being an outlier for futility. There are plenty of mid round guys playing significant roles on the team from the past few drafts, and aside from two GLARING, OBVIOUS misses, the drafting has been pretty darn good of late:
-2021 was a bit... rough (more on that later), but AVT is a starting OG and when healthy and left at his natural position, seems like a very high ceiling player. Michael Carter II (DB) is a very good player for the team, and Jamien Sherwood (5th rounder) seems like he's the heir apparent to CJ Mosley.
-2022 Speaks for itself.
-2023 is a work in progress, but Tippman looks to have overcome his shotgun snap problems and is the starting OC. Will McDonald was a head-scratcher but if he fills the role of DPR and can put together a 10+ sack season, he's a valuable commodity. Zaire Barnes is a seems like solid depth (that's more than you expect from the typical 6th Rounder). Israel Abanikanda seems to have been eclipsed by other new RBs, but he has size, speed, and has flashed as a runner.
-The 2024 draft seems to be trending in the right direction, but it's still too early to really know. Olu Fashanu may be a lockdown OT for a decade once Tyron Smith moves on and the rest of the draft has plenty of talent with Braelin Allen seemingly the stand-out.
 
And over that time, let's not dismiss the UDFA's the Jets have brought in that are significant contributors (or were) to the team... Huff, Gipson, Brownlee, etc. This current Jets FO has found more UDFA Talent in the last few years than the organization as a whole did in the 25 years prior - since probably Chrebet. 
 
Free Agency: What a mixed bag. Carl Lawson (whose existence someone only recently reminded me of) was a swing and a miss. Dude was always hurt. Corey Davis... bro... WHO could have predicted he would just flake out and retire? I'm sorry, I know we have some ambiguous, nebulous inferences that there was some type of "Family problem" or possible, speculative "Health Issue" that led to his random and ill-timed retirement... but still. Retire during Pre-Season? Really? With ZERO explanation? And then the Jets bend over backwards for the guy, to the point that they granted him a free and clear release because he said he wanted to be "close to home"... and he goes and tries out for THE BILLS on August 14th? Umm, What?? Allen Lazard and Randall Cobb were swings at meeting two needs, WR Depth and making AROD happy. Cobb is gone, and Lazard, well, he needs to get his sh*t together this year. FA is almost always a crap shoot, but aside the current O-Line with Moses, Smith, and Simpson, the team is mostly built off the draft at this point. If the O-Line is top 10 this year, the FA record starts looking a LOT better...
 
The BAD
The 2020 Draft is, in no uncertain terms, a black hole, with Ashtyn Davis the sole survivor of the virtual "Covid Draft". Mekhi Becton seemingly found every pre-draft concern and majored in them. His impressive size and athleticism at 6'7 365lbs made him look like the prototype and he was productive in college. But there were issues there the Jets couldn't overcome. Denzel Mims remains an enigma, as he is now currently completely out of the league. The rest of that draft is... forgettable. Total miss. 2020 was Douglas' first draft as THE GM of a team. It was a weird year. He was dealing with Adam Gase. It was 4 years ago. The roster has completely flipped since that draft, and the consequences have been navigated. 2020 was a terrible draft, and it seems like a lot of us still have a bit of a hangover from it since Becton was only recently let go, but it has not been indicative of the way the draft has gone since...
 
THE GIANT, UGLY ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM
No, it isn't Becton, JD himself, me, or The Crusher.... 2021 First Round Pick Zach Wilson completely hamstrung any progress and seemingly negated any other talent advantage the Roster had. He was grossly over-drafted. They had Darnold under contract, and while he was floundering, he still could have been the cheap bridge QB to build around for a year. The flaws in Wilsons game were on tape, but a very low-level schedule of opponents and a dominant O-Line made him look statistically better than he really was. He was immature. Small. And he sunk ANY potential the team had for 3 full seasons. It's hard to argue what the bigger mistake is... DRAFTING Wilson at #2 or continuing to reinforce the failure that he was displaying for his entire career in NY. SO far, much of the criticism Douglas receives is directly tied to #2. The win-loss record. The underperforming Offense. The "noise" and distractions. This was a move that should not have been made... but once it was and it was revealed very quickly that the team had no future moving forward with an underperforming, floundering QB, alternative solutions needed to be implemented (A disinterested Joe Flacco, Mike White, Tim Boyle, and Trevor Siemien are NOT "Serious" backup plans). The team chose to baby and coddle the player and sink the prospects of 52 other players, a Multi-Billion Dollar franchise, and massive fanbase for unclear reasons. Was that Douglas' doing, or higher up the chain of command? We probably won't find out for a while, BUT it happened on JD's watch, so he gets to lie in that bed. 
 
SO, taking EVERYTHING into account over the past 5 years since JD was hired in June of 2019... is he a "terrible" GM? I would say No, he is not. He had a VERY rough start and has managed to overcome it. He took a roster that in 2019 was on an XFL level and transformed it into an arguable Top 10 level collection of players in the course of 4 years. This was not a team a few pieces away, this was a roster and an organization that was suffering from organizational, systemic toxicity and insanity from the Gase years. A Team DEVOID of talent, not just undermanned. There were mistakes made (lol), but right now, they have seemingly largely overcome. The Defense is Top 3 in the league... possibly better (Get your ass to work, Reddick). The Offense has a LOT of talent... Garret Wilson and Breece Hall are game changers. Allen may also be at that level, tbh. Still a little thin at WR for my taste, but if Mike Williams is 85% of who he was for the Chargers and manages to stay mostly available, there is potential for the Offense to be top 10 - IF Rodgers stays upright. Thankfully, the O-Line seems as solid as its been since the Brick/Mangold days ON PAPER. We shall see... 
 
Oh, and a final note... and be honest. If you went back to 2021 and told yourself, yeah, it looks like we're hurting at QB, but in a few years, we're going to have Aaron Rodgers at QB going into a season with good Offensive Playmakers, a Game changing Running Back, and a top 3 defense... you would have said, "Where do I sign up?".
 
Anyway, that's all I have for today. Go away now...
 
 
 

The 2019 XFL roster brag is overblown. 24 members of that roster are still in the league 5 years later.

He is also the 3rd worst GM winning percentage wise of guys who survived more than 1 year behind Kotite and Al Ward


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[mfmartin]

I think that people either weren't aware or have forgotten how legendarily bad  that 2019 team was .Anybody with half a brain knew that it would take 4 or 5 years to get to a competitive level.
I will never say that Zach was a good pick, but sometimes I wonder how much things would be different if Greg Knapp hadn't been killed in a bicycle accident before Zach's first training camp. We'll never know how much an excellent QB coach could have changed things.

No roster in the nfl is 4 or 5 years away. That 2019 roster that was so bad is the best winning percentage of Joe Douglas’s career.


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[mfmartin]

********Please pay attention*****
After enduring years of subpar leadership, the idea that Joe Douglas isn't a top-tier GM is not just misguided—it's outright offensive.
Joe Douglas is undoubtedly a top 5 GM in the league. His strategic moves, combined with the strong foundation he's built around the team, speak volumes about his capabilities. While it’s easy for fans and reporters to overlook his achievements because we haven't yet hoisted a trophy, that success is only a matter of time.
We've risen from the ashes to become a team on the cusp of greatness. This season, with a potential 13+ win record, the respect our team deserves will finally align with our performance. But it’s important to recognize that the lack of credit isn't due to Joe’s decisions—it’s because wins are the currency of respect in the NFL.
Just look at the Bills before Josh Allen. They spent years building a solid foundation, turning themselves from a laughingstock into contenders. It wasn’t immediate, but once the wins started piling up, so did the recognition. The same thing happened with the Patriots before their dynasty years. Joe Douglas has done the hard work, just as those GMs did, and now it’s our turn.
Make no mistake—our reputation as a losing team was well-earned from years of poor decisions. But Joe has righted the ship, and respect will follow soon. We’re already seeing glimpses of it in rankings, Madden ratings, and NFL coverage. Three years from now, it won’t be us but some other team that’s the punchline.
Joe Douglas has laid the groundwork for our success. Now, the wins will come, and with them, the respect we’ve long deserved.

This is satire, correct?


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[mfmartin]

Not many GMs that take over the 2nd worst team in the NFL start out good. Add that the QB he swung on missed. But in reality.... for someone like me who wanted Fields. Has he been a win? So what could he had done different there that would've won the fanbase over? Kept Darnold instead of drafting a QB? Fan base would've flipped about that.
 
So I think the question should be what would you had done different? In reality as well. Not in hindsight.

If you listen to the fans, you will be sitting with them


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[Jets0712]

No roster in the nfl is 4 or 5 years away. That 2019 roster that was so bad is the best winning percentage of Joe Douglas’s career.


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Winning 6 out of your last 8 games and not having to play road games west of Cincinnati def helped the 7-9 record


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[Hael]

10 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Instead of Becton:

Instead of Zach Wilson (either at 2 or after a trade down):

Yeah, yeah.  I know that "hindsight is 20/20".  But there were plenty of posters here on JN telling JD to draft these guys at the time.  A GM needs to have a bit more foresight than some JN draftniks, no?

Yea, I think this is hindsight.  I wanted Wirfs at the time and thought ZW looked like a late 2nd round gamble in terms of draft position  (and I wrote as much at the time, including why I thought his tape wasn't very good).

But I don't think I would revisit those decisions any differently if given the same unknown/situation in the future.  Why? 

In 2020, we had no longterm coach, and no system in place.  We needed to pick a lineman that was system agnostic and that could serve as a LT.  Wirfs was a RT, and was already polished in a very specific style.  Becton meanwhile was much more raw, a much greater pure athlete, and would presumably adapt better to a system change if that was what the new coach wanted.  It didn't work out of course, but I can't fault the logic.

As far as ZW.  I more or less said that the safe play was to trade down, pick up a competent backup qb talent like Mills or (what I thought at the time) Mac Jones and draft Penei.  But frankly, that sort of play it safe mentality with qbs is a losing proposition.  You simply have to swing for the fences sometime.  When you have the 2nd pick in the draft and need a qb, you stfu up and take a swing...  Even if you know that you are likely to strikeout (and it was clear even back then that there was a high chance of that). 

So again, these bad outcomes come from what looks to me like a good decision making process, and thats pretty much consistent with almost all of his choices as GM.  Almost everything he does looks like solid, well reasoned plays.