Jets should invest in O-line upgrades

[neckdemon]

with all the cap space that will be available, and a nice number of draft picks to boot, the jets should seriously invest some resources into the o-line. a great o-line can prop up any offense. sure, i know we need skill position players, and i definitely think we need to be going after receivers and we definitely need to find a a qb who will be real competition to take the reins next year, or just flat out be good enough to be handed the job ( for instance acquiring jay cutler if he were available). but, either way, no matter what we do with qb and skill position players........we need to devote significant resources to building a dominant o-line. if our o-line were dominant, even with zero upgrades to qb and receiver, our offense would improve significantly. now, you couple a dominant o-line with good receivers and a good qb and you have an offense that looks good.

[BurnleyJet]

Q.B and W.R'ssss first please

[CrazyCarl40]

The offensive line is pretty expensive as it is. Where do you upgrade? Both guards are lackluster, but Winters is a rookie. Colon is average and takes too many penalties. You can't upgrade LT or C because of the money invested there.  Howard has been more than decent at RT.

 

The time to improve at guard was last draft.

[Jacked4JetsFB]

I think if we had a better passing game, this Oline would actually be very good.

 

We are constantly in 3rd and long situations where the other team can beat up our WR's at the line and send blitzers. Its a very  hard situation for an OL to be in.

 

In addition, we constantly run the ball into a stacked box, which very few offenses can do these days.

[bitonti]

they drafted winters, oday and campbell and signed peterman

 

they did invest in OL they just didn't make good investments

 

btw the "if the OL was dominant" hope is missing the main message that the rest of the offense needs huge help. WR is probably the worst in the league.

[Jetscode1]

they drafted winters, oday and campbell and signed peterman

 

they did invest in OL they just didn't make good investments

 

btw the "if the OL was dominant" hope is missing the main message that the rest of the offense needs huge help. WR is probably the worst in the league.

 

Probably?

 

I can't think of another team even close.

[Sperm Edwards]

with all the cap space that will be available, and a nice number of draft picks to boot, the jets should seriously invest some resources into the o-line. a great o-line can prop up any offense. sure, i know we need skill position players, and i definitely think we need to be going after receivers and we definitely need to find a a qb who will be real competition to take the reins next year, or just flat out be good enough to be handed the job ( for instance acquiring jay cutler if he were available). but, either way, no matter what we do with qb and skill position players........we need to devote significant resources to building a dominant o-line. if our o-line were dominant, even with zero upgrades to qb and receiver, our offense would improve significantly. now, you couple a dominant o-line with good receivers and a good qb and you have an offense that looks good.

 

Agree.

 

And unlike in the draft, when you have as much cap space as we've got spending more on the OL doesn't preclude us from getting a skill position player (like it does at the top of a draft).

 

A lot of the problem is we have Ferguson set to count $12M/year for the next 2 years and there's really no way out of it.  We have enough cap space to get someone else, but you don't hold onto a $12M left tackle and not play him.  Plus the way his body's built it's not like he can swing inside to guard.  Would be like saying Santonio Holmes isn't playing as well as he used to at WR so let's move him to RB.  

 

Mangold also is $7M next year (fine if he's playing at an elite level, still very expensive if he's only good or even very good.  The next year after that, in '15, it's $10.4M which is insane for a center even if he's back to being the best in the NFL again.  He's cuttable in '15 but $3M is unavoidable; if he is still only "very good" it may still pay to keep him if a noticeably-worse replacement FA is only going to save $3M.  Basically he's sticking, and sticking at that number, unless he gets hurt for a bit before that and a reserve player on a rookie-type deal shows that we could only have a minor downgrade at the position while recouping $7-$9M/year to be used on to upgrade from a scrub to a stud at TE or CB (or wherever). 

 

The point, like others I can never seem to make succinctly, is these two are $19M and $22M (approx 1/6 of the cap limit for the team) and this year neither is playing like they are worth it (Ferguson in particular).  Spending more on the OL may end up meaning a $40M line.

 

Howard is a FA (again).  He's worth re-signing, but at how much?  Can we get him locked up in the $4-5M range? Or is he going to want to test the waters because his agent "hears" (read: through tampering that always occurs) some other team may pony up $7M or more.  Not getting into whether or not he's worth $4M or $7M or whatever.  Just saying that the upgrade in pay on the OL from $2M to his new salary is merely keeping the same guy in the same position.  We'd be spending a lot more but will have upgraded nothing over what we have today.

 

The upgrades would have to come at the guard positions.  With money to spend, Winters shouldn't be too hard to upgrade.  The problem is, if Winters and Colon are both upgraded through FA, we spent nearly half our draft on 3 offensive linemen who will never see the field other than one terrible rookie season from Winters.  If it's only Winters upgraded in FA, and Colon is re-signed for a similar deal to his current one, then one of the 3 could slide into the lineup next year (when Colon gets injured) or after that. 

 

Based on that, my guess today is the Jets will do that: re-sign Howard (at ~$5M per) and Colon (at up to $2M for 1 year) in Feb-March, and spend big (or as big as is available) on one FA guard.  Ignore the line positions in the draft unless someone impossible to pass on falls to us (and even then it wouldn't be in round 1).  Beyond that, any significant OL improvement has to come from Ferguson blocking like a top-5 LT again instead of a mediocre (and sometimes worse) one.

[#27TheDominator]

I am interested in Ijalana.  2011 2nd round pick.  They signed him off waivers and have carried him all year inactive.  I believe he was a tackle prospect but can play G.  He was apparently playing fairly well in the preseason, but not well enough to keep his spot after all of his injury concerns.  Listed as a "top 15" T this preseason by PFF.  They obviously like him but how much? Usually when a team carries a guy like that they like him and expect something, but the Jets did it in the past with guys like Landolt and Schlauderaff and neither ever sees/saw the field. 

[Lupz27]

Agree.

 

And unlike in the draft, when you have as much cap space as we've got spending more on the OL doesn't preclude us from getting a skill position player (like it does at the top of a draft).

 

A lot of the problem is we have Ferguson set to count $12M/year for the next 2 years and there's really no way out of it.  We have enough cap space to get someone else, but you don't hold onto a $12M left tackle and not play him.  Plus the way his body's built it's not like he can swing inside to guard.  Would be like saying Santonio Holmes isn't playing as well as he used to at WR so let's move him to RB.  

 

Mangold also is $7M next year (fine if he's playing at an elite level, still very expensive if he's only good or even very good.  The next year after that, in '15, it's $10.4M which is insane for a center even if he's back to being the best in the NFL again.  He's cuttable in '15 but $3M is unavoidable; if he is still only "very good" it may still pay to keep him if a noticeably-worse replacement FA is only going to save $3M.  Basically he's sticking, and sticking at that number, unless he gets hurt for a bit before that and a reserve player on a rookie-type deal shows that we could only have a minor downgrade at the position while recouping $7-$9M/year to be used on to upgrade from a scrub to a stud at TE or CB (or wherever). 

 

The point, like others I can never seem to make succinctly, is these two are $19M and $22M (approx 1/6 of the cap limit for the team) and this year neither is playing like they are worth it (Ferguson in particular).  Spending more on the OL may end up meaning a $40M line.

 

Howard is a FA (again).  He's worth re-signing, but at how much?  Can we get him locked up in the $4-5M range? Or is he going to want to test the waters because his agent "hears" (read: through tampering that always occurs) some other team may pony up $7M or more.  Not getting into whether or not he's worth $4M or $7M or whatever.  Just saying that the upgrade in pay on the OL from $2M to his new salary is merely keeping the same guy in the same position.  We'd be spending a lot more but will have upgraded nothing over what we have today.

 

The upgrades would have to come at the guard positions.  With money to spend, Winters shouldn't be too hard to upgrade.  The problem is, if Winters and Colon are both upgraded through FA, we spent nearly half our draft on 3 offensive linemen who will never see the field other than one terrible rookie season from Winters.  If it's only Winters upgraded in FA, and Colon is re-signed for a similar deal to his current one, then one of the 3 could slide into the lineup next year (when Colon gets injured) or after that. 

 

Based on that, my guess today is the Jets will do that: re-sign Howard (at ~$5M per) and Colon (at up to $2M for 1 year) in Feb-March, and spend big (or as big as is available) on one FA guard.  Ignore the line positions in the draft unless someone impossible to pass on falls to us (and even then it wouldn't be in round 1).  Beyond that, any significant OL improvement has to come from Ferguson blocking like a top-5 LT again instead of a mediocre (and sometimes worse) one.

How about throwing the Brinks armored truck at Brandon Albert, move Brick to RT, and sign the best pulling run mauling LG available, or find him in the draft!

[sourceworx]

How about throwing the Brinks armored truck at Brandon Albert, move Brick to RT, and sign the best pulling run mauling LG available, or find him in the draft!

 

Brick would do even worse on the right side.  Your right tackle is usually more of a mauler.  Brick is/was more of an athletic finesse blocker.

[LionelRichie]

Chance Warmack was such an obvious pick....almost as obvious as Ed Reed.   

 

For whatever reason Idzik passed on Warmack and now we get to have the same OLine discussions this spring/winter.  

[Matt39]

I'm curious if Idzik is just trying to get Geno hurt with Winters playing to make his life easier going into next season.

[joewilly12]

They did and with 2 picks in the 2013 draft they still stink blame that on Idzik.

[#27TheDominator]

They did and with 2 picks in the 2013 draft they still stink blame that on Idzik.

 

Three

[slats]

The problem on the Jets offense is the QB and receivers, not the OL. If they want to pick up another relatively inexpensive OG to plug into Winters' spot, fine, but they don't need a huge investment there. The money and picks need to be spent on the skill positions.

And everyone will cry and moan if/when it happens, but they shouldn't pass on a pass rusher or a safety, either, just to fill those offensive needs. Jets have needs everywhere.

[Matt39]

The problem on the Jets offense is the QB and receivers, not the OL. If they want to pick up another relatively inexpensive OG to plug into Winters' spot, fine, but they don't need a huge investment there. The money and picks need to be spent on the skill positions.

And everyone will cry and moan if/when it happens, but they shouldn't pass on a pass rusher or a safety, either, just to fill those offensive needs. Jets have needs everywhere.

 

Yes, agreed.

 

We need a playmaker in the secondary, badly. Even if our offense cut down on the turnovers(halved lets say) our defense has forced 10 total all season. It's hard to win that way.

[flgreen]

Martin and Incognito should both be available, and cheap.  Bring them both in.  If the team sucks the media will at least be fun.

 

Maybe even more fun then Tebow.  

[JiFtheOracle]

Depends on what you mean by invest.  They should not go spending top picks on Guards, which is all they really need.

 

Sign a veteran FA and be done with it.  This team needs young play makers. Thats where the investment needs to be...not interior lineman. 

[Integrity28]

Q.B and W.R'ssss first please

 

We should be in good position with the cap... meaning OL, QB and WR can be had in one off-season, and they must be.

[JiFtheOracle]

Chance Warmack was such an obvious pick....almost as obvious as Ed Reed.   

 

For whatever reason Idzik passed on Warmack and now we get to have the same OLine discussions this spring/winter.  

 

And you'd be crying about him too.  He's very underwhelming.  JJ Watt called him a JAG.  lol  Been pretty bad in pass protection and mediocre in the run. 

 

Cooper and Warmack are the exact reason you dont go spending top 10 picks on Guards.

[BroadwayJoe12]

The problem on the Jets offense is the QB and receivers, not the OL. If they want to pick up another relatively inexpensive OG to plug into Winters' spot, fine, but they don't need a huge investment there. The money and picks need to be spent on the skill positions.

And everyone will cry and moan if/when it happens, but they shouldn't pass on a pass rusher or a safety, either, just to fill those offensive needs. Jets have needs everywhere.

 

Usually I wouldn't go this route, but I wouldn't be opposed to having our big needs in FA be spent on Byrd or Orakpo, considering the relatively shallow pool of FA wide receivers. I would imagine Orakpo stays in Washington and Byrd goes to the highest bidder, but shoring up those two positions while also signing a wide receiver would allow us a bit more flexibility in the draft. 

 

I honestly don't know who Idzik will target in FA, but I would be beyond surprised if he doesn't bring in some sort of help at the WR position.  Hopefully it's not just a bunch of bargain guys like Benn, Alexander and Manningham who would only realistically be competing for the #2 or #3 slot.

[flgreen]

Idzik's has a few year's wiggle room yet.  I think he is going to surprise a lot of people next year, by not spending the cap room he has available.  Mostly I think it will be more of the same signing a group of 1 year deals, and counting on the draft to build toward the future, and reserving cap space for the future. Unless a "good deal" becomes available.

 

It's actually not a bad plan except he better do a better job in the draft then what appears to be a very weak draft this year with the exception of Richardson.  Of course a few players could develop, but right now it looks weak

[bitonti]

 I think he is going to surprise a lot of people next year, by not spending the cap room he has available.  

 

agree but how would that be a surprise? the dude loves to dumpster dive.

[HessStation]

Keep Colon and Howard and get a legit LG. They have plenty of decent depth.

[Jetscode1]

Winters in getting maximum OJT...Campbell, Ijalana, and Aboushi provide the depth...doubt we target this position unless it's a cheap veteran.  Too many skill players needed and I'd use as many picks as possible to fill that need.

[Bleedin Green]

Idzik's has a few year's wiggle room yet.  I think he is going to surprise a lot of people next year, by not spending the cap room he has available.  Mostly I think it will be more of the same signing a group of 1 year deals, and counting on the draft to build toward the future, and reserving cap space for the future. Unless a "good deal" becomes available.

 

It's actually not a bad plan except he better do a better job in the draft then what appears to be a very weak draft this year with the exception of Richardson.  Of course a few players could develop, but right now it looks weak

 

Yeah, I would not be overly surprised if Idzik's big signing of the offseason is locking Wilkerson up into a long-term deal.  I still think we'll see a bit more going on in FA then last year, but not necessarily any overly big, splashy moves.  If anything, there will probably be more involvement in the middle tier of guys they like as possible multi-year options (more in the mold of the Ivory, Goodson and Barnes moves, but hopefully healthier).

 

[pedro55]

  The big problem with the "We need OL" is that the Jets already have two OL who have been pro bowlers,  they have a 3rd round pick this year who is an OL, they have a 2nd round pick who is an OL.    They just suck at picking OL.     Look around the league.  How the hell are the Dolphins 8-6 when they lost 2 of their damn OL starters and had the entire nation wondering what the hell that team is doing because of taunting, bullying, etc.     How are the Broncos winning when they lost OL before the season started?

 

  This theory you need 5 Pro Bowl OL just to win is ridiculous considering if you look around the league,  many other teams are in worse situations as far as the OL compared to the Jets.  It's just the Jets obviously have crappy coaching, a crappy QB, crappy RBs, crappy WRs and TEs.     Can the OL play better?  Yes, but what does drafting more OL do that would make this team better?   They've been drafting OL for years, even drafted some pro bowl OL or signed former pro bowl OL and the offense has always sucked.      

 

  Rex gets credit for finding not that greatest players on defense and 'coaching' them up.  Well considering they've been drafting OL for years,  where is that ability for him or Marty or the OL to coach up guys like Winters and Vlad and so on to be serviceable?   

[Matt39]

  The big problem with the "We need OL" is that the Jets already have two OL who have been pro bowlers,  they have a 3rd round pick this year who is an OL, they have a 2nd round pick who is an OL.    They just suck at picking OL.     Look around the league.  How the hell are the Dolphins 8-6 when they lost 2 of their damn OL starters and had the entire nation wondering what the hell that team is doing because of taunting, bullying, etc.     How are the Broncos winning when they lost OL before the season started?

 

  This theory you need 5 Pro Bowl OL just to win is ridiculous considering if you look around the league,  many other teams are in worse situations as far as the OL compared to the Jets.  It's just the Jets obviously have crappy coaching, a crappy QB, crappy RBs, crappy WRs and TEs.     Can the OL play better?  Yes, but what does drafting more OL do that would make this team better?   They've been drafting OL for years, even drafted some pro bowl OL or signed former pro bowl OL and the offense has always sucked.      

 

  Rex gets credit for finding not that greatest players on defense and 'coaching' them up.  Well considering they've been drafting OL for years,  where is that ability for him or Marty or the OL to coach up guys like Winters and Vlad and so on to be serviceable?   

 

Agreed with the premise here. When the Jets miss on picks- they miss badly. Kyle Wilson is a bust...but he's actually one of our better busts. Winters is playing like JP Machado.

[SenorGato]

How about throwing the Brinks armored truck at Brandon Albert, move Brick to RT, and sign the best pulling run mauling LG available, or find him in the draft!

 

Keep it simple and healthy if you want a T by signing Michael Oher. 

[MexiRoll6]

Idzik probably thought that Winters would be as good as Warmack - or at least serviceable - and I believe he will be. I have said Ferguson is overrated many times and clearly he is. Mangold is decent but vastly overpaid, so the shadow of Tanny still lingers over this club and will for some time. WR is CLEARLY the position of need no matter WHAT underproductive, turnover Prone QB they trot out there. OL would be pretty high on the list for free agency. My God, I hope John Idzik has what it takes to right this s(t)inking ship.

[neckdemon]

  The big problem with the "We need OL" is that the Jets already have two OL who have been pro bowlers,  they have a 3rd round pick this year who is an OL, they have a 2nd round pick who is an OL.    They just suck at picking OL.     Look around the league.  How the hell are the Dolphins 8-6 when they lost 2 of their damn OL starters and had the entire nation wondering what the hell that team is doing because of taunting, bullying, etc.     How are the Broncos winning when they lost OL before the season started?

 

  This theory you need 5 Pro Bowl OL just to win is ridiculous considering if you look around the league,  many other teams are in worse situations as far as the OL compared to the Jets.  It's just the Jets obviously have crappy coaching, a crappy QB, crappy RBs, crappy WRs and TEs.     Can the OL play better?  Yes, but what does drafting more OL do that would make this team better?   They've been drafting OL for years, even drafted some pro bowl OL or signed former pro bowl OL and the offense has always sucked.      

 

  Rex gets credit for finding not that greatest players on defense and 'coaching' them up.  Well considering they've been drafting OL for years,  where is that ability for him or Marty or the OL to coach up guys like Winters and Vlad and so on to be serviceable?   

 

 

i never said you needed 5 probowl o-linemen. but having a very good o-line is a great way to solidify your offense. its the infrastructure of the offense. how do the patriots keep winning for the last decade no matter who they trot out there at receiver? it's because they have tom brady and tom brady gets all day behind his o-line to throw. now obviously we can't just go out and get a tom brady. but we can work on giving whoever we have at qb more time in the pocket. we do something to upgrade our o-line, get some better receivers, and then bring in a qb. but you still need to give whoever is back there time to go through progressions and you have to give whoever is running routes time to get open.

[flgreen]

IMO  the OL has 4, from good to serviceable players, and one horrible player.  Winters appears to be Adrian Clarke  horrible.  Remember him?  He threw the whole OL out of sync, and made the players on either side of him look bad  because they were trying to cover for Clarke, and missed their assignments.  

 

That's what it seems like is going on with Winters.  

 

Couple that with the fact that they are playing in front of a QB who doesn't appear to have a clue what he is looking at when he looks across the LOS at the defense, and throws the ball to who ever he made his mind up he was going to throw to no matter what the defense is doing 90% of the time.

 

Not a good combination 

[pedro55]

i never said you needed 5 probowl o-linemen. but having a very good o-line is a great way to solidify your offense. its the infrastructure of the offense. how do the patriots keep winning for the last decade no matter who they trot out there at receiver? it's because they have tom brady and tom brady gets all day behind his o-line to throw. now obviously we can't just go out and get a tom brady. but we can work on giving whoever we have at qb more time in the pocket. we do something to upgrade our o-line, get some better receivers, and then bring in a qb. but you still need to give whoever is back there time to go through progressions and you have to give whoever is running routes time to get open.

 

  Look at the Patriots OL?      Yeah because their starting Center comes from the first or second or third rounds.... Oh wait he was an undrafted guy, practice squad guy, special teams guy, and not the starting center until last year.     Yeah Connolly was another undrafted kid of guy, a practice squad guy, and now a starter.  Cannon is a 5th round pick a couple seasons ago.   They drafted Nate Solder in the first round in 2011.  They drafted Mankins back in 2005 at the end of the first round.  

 

  So a common theme here is to find undrafted practice squad players who can contribute and find new OL ever couple of years.     

 

The Patriots starting OL this year has  2 former practice squad and undrafted guys, a 5th round guy,  a guy drafted back in 2005 who is good and they put franchise tags on him, and they have another guy who was drafted at the tail end of the first round(almost making him a 2nd rounder) two seasons ago.      

 

On paper the jets should have a better OL.    

They have a 2nd round OL from last season, they have a 3rd round OL from this years draft, they have two 1st round former pro bowl OL,  they have a free agent 4th round OL,  and they have a undrafted guy.   

 

 Obviously it's not about finding better OL in the draft.  And like i said, the Dolphins just lost two of their starting OL mid season, and after all the turmoil surrounding that team because of it,  they are still fighting for a playoff spot whereas the jets need luck and eveyrbody else to lose to make it.       Explain to me how the Dolphins OL seems to be having a better season with 2 guys thrown into the mix halfway through this season compared to the Jets where they really haven't had any major injuries or losses on the OL and on paper, the OL should be at least serviceable.   

 

 Thats the thing. Keep blaming the OL, but make excuses for Geno, the coaches and everybody else.

[SenorGato]

Oher at RT and Grady Jackson at LG to call it an offseason for the OL. 

[sirlancemehlot]

Saying you can get good OL late or Undrafted is silliness. You can get Romo, Brady, Kurt Warner etc. late or I drafted, you can get victor Cruz and Jamal Charles etc. these are not the norm, though. Like every NFL position the best prospects are drafted highest. That being said, drafting an OL #1 or #2 simply because you need a better line makes little sense as well. Last draft was the year of the lineman, this coming draft is strong at wr and QB. If the best OL in the draft is there and he helps you, you draft him high, if there is little difference between the best and fourth best, though, you wait and go for value. There's no perfect formula. You have a list of needs and prospects. Hopefully you fill your needs with the best possible prospects. OL is certainly a need. They should draft one in the first three rounds IMO. but if QB or WR offer better value than you wait. Warford should have been our pick last year but we couldn't get to him. Warmack will probably develop into an excellent player in a year or two and will likely be a far greater help to his team than milliner will ever be to ours. But we missed out on him. Only way to know who is the biggest asset is to see how the draft board and FA shake out.