Poll: Fitz vs Geno

[Mike135]

1 minute ago, Rangers9 said:

Ok if you want you can say I don't know what the hell I'm talking about and I wouldn't argue with you. Because I don't I'm just a fan. But you want to pay Wilk 19 mil for 6 years and get rid of our starting Qb or pay him low backup money. After the guy had a real good year and the coaches and players want him back. And start a guy who's had a poor career and the GM who drafted him was fired. Because he makes under 2 mil. If this is smart then I really don't know what I'm talking about. 

Almost there.  Now just repeat these words, "Devils Rule!"

 

[Jet Nut]

35 minutes ago, Warfish said:

2013 - 8 wins

2014 - 4 wins

2015 - 0 wins

4 or less wins, 66% of his years in the NFL.  

Math.

He was on the team, wasn't he?  Of course last year is on his resume.  

Yes, math and science, two things you're clearly not a fan of.  Got it.

So Geno went undefeated in 2015.

Math.

[Mike135]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

So Geno went undefeated in 2015.

Math.

Well played.

[Rangers9]

1 minute ago, Mike135 said:

Almost there.  Now just repeat these words, "Devils Rule!"

 

I'm hope you're not handling your family's finances. And Devil's drool?. 

[CrazyCarl40]

13 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Not that I'm crediting Smith with being a good QB last year, but you're really crediting him with a loss for getting inserted into the game with <5 min left in the 3rd quarter with the team already down 31-3, and another where the HC spitefully allowed only like 5 passes until the last drive, with no passes allowed over 3 yards until the last drive, so he could stick it to his hated GM? 

What intellectual honesty.

Is it intellectually honest to compare Geno's last six games versus an entire season of Fitz? Just fighting fire with fire. 

[Mike135]

1 hour ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Is it intellectually honest to compare Geno's last six games versus an entire season of Fitz? Just fighting fire with fire. 

Actually yes.  1 year amounts to 9% of Fitz's career.  After 2014 6 games amounted to 19% of Geno's career.

But on the other hand, it's unfair to Geno because the 2014 and 2015 squads were night n day.

That comment going around that the teams were 95% the same is what's not intellectually correct.  More like bat-$hit nuts.

[NYs Stepchild]

8 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

I'm hope you're not handling your family's finances. And Devil's drool?. 

Drool? Really? Rangers win the cup every 54 years, and people are jealous. 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Is it intellectually honest to compare Geno's last six games versus an entire season of Fitz? Just fighting fire with fire. 

It's not an apples to apples comparison otherwise. Not unless you can remove Brandon Marshall from the Jets' roster for 16 games (not to mention an offense he had years of experience in). At least after he came back from being benched he had a pair of healthy WRs he'd worked with for more than 3 days. I take for granted it takes a young QB - particularly a bad, young QB - to acclimate to changing conditions than one who has been on so many different offenses with so many different players. For example, any fool knows he should have been holding a clipboard his rookie year (provided he wouldn't have fumbled it as well). He still wasn't so great after coming back either (perfect game notwithstanding), but it was an improvement, which is what you'd like to see from a young QB.

Hey if you want to make a comparison your idea of  "fair" then compare each of their first 3 NFL seasons' numbers, when Fitzpatrick couldn't work his way to 2nd string and hop over the great Jamie Martin. The next year they dumped Martin but picked up old Gus Frerotte because they wanted to keep Fitzpatrick 3rd string (lest they have to witness another 0-touchdown, 5-interception game from Fitzpatrick). After a year & another summer of that they dumped him for a 7th round pick the following season (equivalent of an 8th round draft pick, despite his replacement-player level salary). Obviously entering his 3rd NFL season he hadn't put enough distance between himself and undrafted rookie Brock Berlin for the 3rd string job (never mind beating out 36 year old Frerotte for the #2 job).

So clearly a lot can change after a QB's first few seasons. Not saying that will be the case with Geno, but after 3 seasons Fitzpatrick's NFL future looked far bleaker.

[Villain The Foe]

10 hours ago, Warfish said:

2013 - 8 wins

2014 - 4 wins

2015 - 0 wins

4 or less wins, 66% of his years in the NFL.  

Math.

He was on the team, wasn't he?  Of course last year is on his resume.  

Yes, math and science, two things you're clearly not a fan of.  Got it.

Yes Warfish, he was on the team. So how is it that the team won 10 games yet you have Geno as winning 0 games? Either count the season for what it is because he was on the team, or dont count the season given that he wasnt on the field and didnt start a game. No need to present math/science like Neil Degrasse. 

2013-8 wins

2014-4 wins

2015-10 wins. 

or

2013-8 wins

2014-4 wins

2015-wasnt the starter so he wasnt in position to win or lose.

 

 

[Warfish]

9 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

So Geno went undefeated in 2015.

Math.

Only if you count his loss vs. Oakland as a Fitz defeat.

But yes, if that's how you view the Oak game, he was undefeated. 

[Warfish]

35 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Yes Warfish, he was on the team. So how is it that the team won 10 games yet you have Geno as winning 0 games?

Because Geno Smith won zero games in 2015.

Did you see a game we won where Geno was an active part of the Team than won those games?

I didn't.

But by all means, if there was a 2015 game you'd like to award winning credit to Geno, feel free to make the case.

Point being, the meme that Geno only has "two years" is fantasy, like most Geno excuse memes.  He's been in the league three years, had every chance to win the job in 2015 and failed because he was a cheap, stupid, moron, and you do not get to simply ignore his wasted year of "got punched, benched, lost vs. Oakland, and never saw the field again" just because it's inconvenient to your opinion.  Geno Smith has three years in this league, not two.  And in his third year, the facts are clear, he won zero games.

[Warfish]

3 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Is it intellectually honest to compare Geno's last six games versus an entire season of Fitz? Just fighting fire with fire. 

Like our posters who compare "well if you extrapolate Geno vs. Oakland he would have had 15,980 yards, 123 TD's and 19 wins in 2015, so he's clearly better than Fitz!"?

[Rangers9]

2 hours ago, NYs Stepchild said:

Drool? Really? Rangers win the cup every 54 years, and people are jealous. 

Like being a Jets fan every 50 years or so-that's what you call loyalty! My kids don't get it and only root for winners.

[Rangers9]

I'm not going to put Geno down or dissect his stats like a dishonest politician looking to bend information against his opponent. You know like telling half truths, etc.  I mean one poster joked a few days ago about silly anti Fitz fans bringing weather in as a variable which at that time sounded ridiculous but these guys actually tried it unsuccessfully. If Geno is our starter it could be worse but it could be a lot better. You don't fool around at the Qb position you go with a player who's been successful and you don't dredge up his negatives from ten years ago. If you were watching the team last year what you saw was a successfully run offense. The best we've had in years. And I for one would like to build on that not tear it down. There is no proof the team won't win with Geno. It's the Jets cheaper option for sure. But if we're going to talk percentage chances at winning then stop it right there! Almost everybody in the press, the GM, HC, teammates including top playmakers and most logical fans say that is going to be Fitz. And these made up low ball figures being fabricated by Fitz haters just won't work. I mean it's like saying you're going to get 10 year old Corvette for $20,000 when the market value is $50,000. You will be laughed at. 

[Integrity28]

When you really think about it arguing that "Geno isn't going to be the same QB now, that he was earlier in his career" to make the case that "Fitz is the same QB now, that he was earlier in his career" is the inception of QB debates.

 

[Rangers9]

Look the Fitz haters try to find excuses not to retain him by saying his salary will hurt the team in terms of having to cut costs for other players. Yeah, like we're worried about a backup linebacker or a ST player and that's going to destroy the team. And they have no problem paying Wilk and Revis 20 % of our cap space. Just come out and admit that you hate the guy and don't want him back. You're wrong but be honest about it. Don't throw out ridiculous low ball figures on paying him that no starting Qb in the NFL will accept. 

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Only if you count his loss vs. Oakland as a Fitz defeat.

But yes, if that's how you view the Oak game, he was undefeated. 

You only like math and statistics when it suits your argument?  

i view the Oakland game the way the league always recognizes w&ls 

Geno was undefeated.  About 16 losses in 3 seasons.  Math works both ways

[slats]

1 hour ago, Rangers9 said:

Look the Fitz haters try to find excuses not to retain him by saying his salary will hurt the team in terms of having to cut costs for other players. Yeah, like we're worried about a backup linebacker or a ST player and that's going to destroy the team. And they have no problem paying Wilk and Revis 20 % of our cap space. Just come out and admit that you hate the guy and don't want him back. You're wrong but be honest about it. Don't throw out ridiculous low ball figures on paying him that no starting Qb in the NFL will accept. 

My issue are these eight figures you wanna throw around, or guaranteeing a dime in 2017. 

The starting QB market is not Fitzpatrick's market. Fitzpatrick is now part of the players who are still free agents in May market. Players get big free agent money in March. In May, they traditionally get scraps. $7M/year with nothing guaranteed in 2017 is not a fair offer at this stage of the game, it's a generous offer. An offer the Jets should be lowering at this time, not raising. 

[Warfish]

35 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

You only like math and statistics when it suits your argument?  

Math simply is, what is supports or does not support is irrelevant.  When Math disagrees with me, I'm happy to admit that.

Quote

i view the Oakland game the way the league always recognizes w&ls 

I was unaware the League assigned Wins and Losses to QB's a la MLB.  

Quote

Geno was undefeated.  About 16 losses in 3 seasons.  Math works both ways

Yep, 18 losses in two seasons as a full time starter (not counting the games he did not start because he was benched for poor play, or hurt and unable to start), 0 losses (depending on how you wish to assign responsibility in the OAK game) in one season as a backup/bench warmer.  

11 wins over that same 3 year period.  An average of 3.6 wins per season vs 6 losses per season.

 

I'm curious Nut, did you post your predictions in Villians "Record if Geno..." Thread?  if so, could you let me know what page so I can check it out, thanks.

[DoubleDown]

30 minutes ago, slats said:

My issue are these eight figures you wanna throw around, or guaranteeing a dime in 2017. 

The starting QB market is not Fitzpatrick's market. Fitzpatrick is now part of the players who are still free agents in May market. Players get big free agent money in March. In May, they traditionally get scraps. $7M/year with nothing guaranteed in 2017 is not a fair offer at this stage of the game, it's a generous offer. An offer the Jets should be lowering at this time, not raising. 

The offer very well could have been taken off the table after Hackenberg was drafted.

[Jet Fan RI]

1 hour ago, Rangers9 said:

Like being a Jets fan every 50 years or so-that's what you call loyalty! My kids don't get it and only root for winners.

Touche'!

[Rangers9]

31 minutes ago, slats said:

My issue are these eight figures you wanna throw around, or guaranteeing a dime in 2017. 

The starting QB market is not Fitzpatrick's market. Fitzpatrick is now part of the players who are still free agents in May market. Players get big free agent money in March. In May, they traditionally get scraps. $7M/year with nothing guaranteed in 2017 is not a fair offer at this stage of the game, it's a generous offer. An offer the Jets should be lowering at this time, not raising. 

It's not a generous offer it's way below market unless you won't even admit that Fitz is the starting Jets Qb.  If he's a backup it's very generous. Again we don't know what true figures are being discussed between Fitz and the Jets all we're hearing like from Decker is that they are far apart. It could be extra years and guaranteed money. .While I'm not for high balling Fitz you have to adequately budget for the Qb position which is normally your highest paid player. And he won't be if Wilk is still on the team. If they don't make a deal then Let's Go Geno. But I hope that doesn't happen. 

[Powpow]

31 minutes ago, slats said:

My issue are these eight figures you wanna throw around, or guaranteeing a dime in 2017. 

The starting QB market is not Fitzpatrick's market. Fitzpatrick is now part of the players who are still free agents in May market. Players get big free agent money in March. In May, they traditionally get scraps. $7M/year with nothing guaranteed in 2017 is not a fair offer at this stage of the game, it's a generous offer. An offer the Jets should be lowering at this time, not raising. 

You're just a cheap exploitive GM. Those guys don't last long in the NFL.  Hint hint Mac.

[Rangers9]

20 minutes ago, DoubleDown said:

The offer very well could have been taken off the table after Hackenberg was drafted.

Do you really think the Jets want to start Hackenberg! The guy wasn't even a good college Qb. Let's not make the same mistakes we made with Sanchez and with Geno. They keep Fitz for 2 years and then get rid of him and start Hack if he's ready. I imagine that Geno will leave the Jets after 2016. He's a UFA in '17. As for Petty unless he's great in training camp I don't see a future for him on the Jets. 

[Dunnie]

Let's see ... Fitz had a team record setting season ... Geno had the worst game of any Jets QB ... does not seem like a tough question.

[Warfish]

5 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

Let's see ... Fitz had a team record setting season ... Geno had the worst game of any Jets QB ... does not seem like a tough question.

Well, in fairness it's a little more complicated than all that:

1. Neither Fitz nor Geno are the "future".  They are a one-to-two year seat warmer at best.

2. Fitz is asking for a material amount of money.  Geno is under contract.

3. a Goodly % of fans think Fitz was a one-hit wonder, and cannot possibly repeat his 2015, a 2015 they say wasn't that good anyway because he was carried by his system/talent.

These top two issues are the primary support for a "**** it, save the $, burn the year giving Geno a "fair chance" and "with talent" to "see what we have in him".  

There is some validity to this viewpoint, frankly.  But what it boils down to is "suck with Geno for a year, then we'll actually care in 2017 and beyond".

[Rangers9]

2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Well, in fairness it's a little more complicated than all that:

1. Neither Fitz nor Geno are the "future".  They are a one-to-two year seat warmer at best.

2. Fitz is asking for a material amount of money.  Geno is under contract.

3. a Goodly % of fans think Fitz was a one-hit wonder, and cannot possibly repeat his 2015, a 2015 they say wasn't that good anyway because he was carried by his system/talent.

These top two issues are the primary support for a "**** it, save the $, burn the year giving Geno a "fair chance" and "with talent" to "see what we have in him".  

There is some validity to this viewpoint, frankly.  But what it boils down to is "suck with Geno for a year, then we'll actually care in 2017 and beyond".

In a very few words Dunnie has hit the nail on the head. 

[jetrider]

12 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

Let's see ... Fitz had a real team and cupcake schedule ... Geno had the worst OC and supporting cast of any Jets QB ... does not seem like a tough question.

Fixed

[slats]

17 minutes ago, Powpow said:

You're just a cheap exploitive GM. Those guys don't last long in the NFL.  Hint hint Mac.

It might be cheap if he was getting outbid by another team, and refused to budge. Raising his offer because Fitz is threatening to take his ball and go home rather than play for the insulting double his last year's salary offer after shopping himself around the league and barely getting a nibble would be some combination of stupid and crazy. 

Mac is playing this smart. GMs who would raise an offer to a journeyman petulant child don't last long, either. 

[DoubleDown]

15 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Do you really think the Jets want to start Hackenberg! The guy wasn't even a good college Qb. Let's not make the same mistakes we made with Sanchez and with Geno. They keep Fitz for 2 years and then get rid of him and start Hack if he's ready. I imagine that Geno will leave the Jets after 2016. He's a UFA in '17. As for Petty unless he's great in training camp I don't see a future for him on the Jets. 

My comment had nothing to do with whether Hackenberg will be starting or not.

Prior to the draft, the Jets had a big need for an additional quarterback on the roster.  After Hackenberg was drafted, that need was significantly reduced both in the long term and in terms of having an extra arm in camp.

The Jets offered Fitzpatrick $7 million when there was a gaping hole on the quarterback depth chart.  No such hole exists anymore especially if the Jets are high on any of the three quarterbacks.  It's very possible the offer was taken off the table completely, and the Jets are planning to go into camp with the three young guns.  If there is an injury or Geno bombs completely, then they might put an offer to Fitzpatrick back on the table.

Fitzpatrick took a gamble, and the Jets called his bluff.  They are in a position to move forward without him at this point.

[Villain The Foe]

3 hours ago, Warfish said:

Because Geno Smith won zero games in 2015.

Did you see a game we won where Geno was an active part of the Team than won those games?

I didn't.

But by all means, if there was a 2015 game you'd like to award winning credit to Geno, feel free to make the case.

Point being, the meme that Geno only has "two years" is fantasy, like most Geno excuse memes.  He's been in the league three years, had every chance to win the job in 2015 and failed because he was a cheap, stupid, moron, and you do not get to simply ignore his wasted year of "got punched, benched, lost vs. Oakland, and never saw the field again" just because it's inconvenient to your opinion.  Geno Smith has three years in this league, not two.  And in his third year, the facts are clear, he won zero games.

I didnt see Geno start any games in order to "win or lose" in 2015. So to say "4 or less" would give the false indication to anyone whom doesnt know any better that he actually played games that produced "wins and losses". 

 

Dont be that dude Warfish. 

[Warfish]

5 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

I didnt see Geno start any games in order to "win or lose" in 2015.

No starts, one majority-of-game played as backup.

Does not mean he is a third year player (as some are trying to meme up), he IS a fourth year player.  His year as a broken-jaw'ed benched backup is a part of his record. 

5 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

So to say "4 or less" would give the false indication to anyone whom doesn't know any better that he actually played games that produced "wins and losses". 

Only to people who can't look things up or understand complex concepts and analysis.  

Frankly, I don't worry about low-information posters inability to understand what I say.

 

[Villain The Foe]

16 minutes ago, Warfish said:

No starts, one majority-of-game played as backup.

Does not mean he is a third year player (as some are trying to meme up), he IS a fourth year player.  His year as a broken-jaw'ed benched backup is a part of his record. 

Only to people who can't look things up or understand complex concepts and analysis.  

Frankly, I don't worry about low-information posters inability to understand what I say.

 

The fact that this is "complex concepts/analysis" to you isnt an indictment on my level of competence bro. 

He didnt play the season, stop with the semantics. 

And you do worry, the fact that you even said that in a response shows that you do. What you say and what you do are contrary. As im writing this I see that you just responded to something else of mine. 

 

But you are correct, there is an inability to understand you when trying to make sense of what you say, because it doesnt make sense. 

[Mike135]

Man, if nothing else comes from this thread, we've all gotta give @Rangers9 some credit for being damn persistent.  I haven't been around as long as others, but he has gotta be in the top 5 or so most stubborn (but in a good way) and "dedicated to his view" posters here.

He'll post arguments vs multiple members at the same time, and right when ya think you have him... he'll circle around again.  And again.  And again... (You get the point.)

I commend him and look forward to being on his side of an argument at some point in the future.

I don't agree with ya at all on this, but cheers Ranger!  Ya earned it.   

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Math simply is, what is supports or does not support is irrelevant.  When Math disagrees with me, I'm happy to admit that.

I was unaware the League assigned Wins and Losses to QB's a la MLB.  

Yep, 18 losses in two seasons as a full time starter (not counting the games he did not start because he was benched for poor play, or hurt and unable to start), 0 losses (depending on how you wish to assign responsibility in the OAK game) in one season as a backup/bench warmer.  

11 wins over that same 3 year period.  An average of 3.6 wins per season vs 6 losses per season.

 

I'm curious Nut, did you post your predictions in Villians "Record if Geno..." Thread?  if so, could you let me know what page so I can check it out, thanks.

Now you're flailing.  

Spin the math, it's fun to watch.  You starting this nonsense, move on.  

Predictions?  Let's wait for the finalized teams.  I'll tell you what, my prediction is the w/l totals will be basically the same whether Fitz or Geno starts.