Greg Williams And The Magic Wand

[FidelioJet]

2 hours ago, jetsjets said:

So trade Adams? Build the offense? How about a balanced team? Why trade our good players for a maybe? How about the front office finally do their jobs!

I think the point most are making is that we do need a balanced team - but the offense is soooooo far behind the defense that even trading Adams, and using those picks for offense, still won’t level the playing field.

This team needs to build around Darnold - for now he should be the ONLY thing that matters.  

[Warfish]

2 hours ago, BettyBoop said:

Absolutely true.  I shudder to think what the Rams, Niners and Seahawks would do to this defense next year without upgrades.

Funny, I shudder to think about having to watch the 32nd ranked offense score a pathetic ~17 points per game again in 2020.

With the one single exceptional outlier Ryan Fitzmagic year...the Jets averaged a ranking of 27th in Offense for the entire DECADE of the 2010's.  Offensive Rankings of 32, 29, 28, 26, 22, 25, 30, 25......

Over a similar span, we produced Top-11 Defenses 9 out of the last 11 years.

Over that same period, we had 3 winning seasons (including the Fitzmagic year) in 11 seasons.

The two years we did better on offense, 2010 (10th ranked) and 2015 (11th ranked) we finished 11-5 and 10-6, respectively.

If you don't see the problem here.......

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, jetstream23 said:

It has to be BPA in the context of need.  I don't know if that's 70%/30% or 90%/10% but philosophically for me it means when you're on the clock you look at the 2, 3 or 4 players who you have next on your board and if similarly graded you pick the one who fills a need.  Here's the perfect example IMO.....Last year, the Jets on the clock at #3.  They may have had Quinnen Williams at #2 on their Board and perhaps Josh Allen at #4.....I would have taken Allen because of the Jets dire need for an outside pass rusher.  It's a need that still exists today and should be addressed in this coming Draft because we didn't do anything about it last year.  Josh Allen was a Top 5 talent who nobody (except Macc) would argue about taking at #3.

Grading prospects is such an in-exact science that you shouldn't even trust your own Draft Board blindly.  Can anyone guarantee with even 60% accuracy that the guy they rank at #50 is going to be better than the guy they have at #52?  When you have players in the same area, the same tier, with similar grades, etc. use need to make the decision.  JMHO.

I get what you are saying, but I am not dropping a higher graded guy because of need.  Most people/teams have these guys graded in tiers.  There may be a huge chasm between #2 and #4, or the difference may be barely discernible.  If guys are in the same tier or very closely rated, 100% go with need.  OTOH, if I honestly believe that Quinnen Williams is Aaron Donald, I am not dropping him for Carl ******* Banks.  FWIW, personally I was going Ed Oliver there need be damned.

[Warfish]

6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I get what you are saying, but I am not dropping a higher graded guy because of need.

So if a DT is the clear highest graded guy on the Jets Board at #11, you're handing in that DT draft card, eh?

Seems like a winning formula, Macc.  Sorry to hear about your recent firing btw.

[#27TheDominator]

5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So if a DT is the clear highest graded guy on the Jets Board at #11, you're handing in that DT draft card, eh?

Seems like a winning formula, Macc.  Sorry to hear about your recent firing btw.

If the I think the guy is the next Aaron Donald?  Abso****inglutely.   

The guy to complain about when whining about need picks is probably Maye, not these guys at the top the drafts.  Remember, guys all in for drafting offense thought we should be taking Kevin White in 2015. 

[Warfish]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

If the I think the guy is the next Aaron Donald?  Abso****inglutely. 

Absolutely misguided ala Macc, in my book, but to each their own.  

[#27TheDominator]

On 1/8/2020 at 5:13 PM, Warfish said:

Absolutely misguided ala Macc, in my book, but to each their own.  

The issue is, you think that you should automatically be passing on Aaron Donald That is what is misguided.  I fully accept that continually drafting DTs is not a recipe for success, but the main problem is with how the players were graded.

[genot]

4 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Adams is the most overrated player in the league.

Now on to the rest of your post.  What do you propose?  We only have so many resources. 

We have 4 picks in the 1st three rounds.

Our offense was dead last in the league.

the oline was about the worst in the league.

QB is the most important position on the team.

We have favoured the defense for over a decade.

 

[Warfish]

11 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

The issue is, you think that automatically passing on Aaron Donald is wrong.  That is what is misguided.  I fully accept that continually drafting DTs is not a recipe for success, but the main problem is with how the players were graded.

I think passing on "Sure I bet THIS ONE will be our" Aaron Donald is the right call when your offense is as historicly bad as ours has been the last decade, has clear cut unquestionable desperate needs at O-line and WR, and prospects worthy of the #11 pick, and we draft a f'ing DT again the year after picking QW because "BAP".

Let me repeat from above, for effect:

Quote

 

Funny, I shudder to think about having to watch the 32nd ranked offense score a pathetic ~17 points per game again in 2020.

With the one single exceptional outlier Ryan Fitzmagic year...the Jets averaged a ranking of 27th in Offense for the entire DECADE of the 2010's.  Offensive Rankings of 32, 29, 28, 26, 22, 25, 30, 25......

Over a similar span, we produced Top-11 Defenses 9 out of the last 11 years.

Over that same period, we had 3 winning seasons (including the Fitzmagic year) in 11 seasons.

The two years we did better on offense, 2010 (10th ranked) and 2015 (11th ranked) we finished 11-5 and 10-6, respectively.

If you don't see the problem here.......

 

Top 10 Defenses don't win here.

Top 10 Offenses do.

But sure, lets go Full Rex, and double down on Defense because lolBAP, and draft yet another D Lineman, and while we're at it, maybe there is a small school Edge LB in the 2nd we can overdraft because clearly we're smarter than everyone else.

Like I said, sorry to hear about your firing Macc, but I hope it begins an era where our FO realizes that Offense Wins Titles nowadays.

[#27TheDominator]

26 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I think passing on "Sure I bet THIS ONE will be our" Aaron Donald is the right call when your offense is as historicly bad as ours has been the last decade, has clear cut unquestionable desperate needs at O-line and WR, and prospects worthy of the #11 pick, and we draft a f'ing DT again the year after picking QW because "BAP".

Let me repeat from above, for effect:

Top 10 Defenses don't win here.

Top 10 Offenses do.

But sure, lets go Full Rex, and double down on Defense because lolBAP, and draft yet another D Lineman, and while we're at it, maybe there is a small school Edge LB in the 2nd we can overdraft because clearly we're smarter than everyone else.

Like I said, sorry to hear about your firing Macc, but I hope it begins an era where our FO realizes that Offense Wins Titles nowadays.

Bad decisions beget bad decisions.  Calling me "Macc" may be funny to you, but I was in the first wave of guys questioning him.  I was complaining about his failure to get deals done with guys he obviously wanted back before the end of 2015.  That was before his coveted executive of the year trophy.

Here is your logic.  It is 2007 and you are appointed GM of the Detroit Lions.  Calvin Johnson is sitting there, but the team has drafted Charles Rodgers, Roy Williams and Mike Williams.  Warfish is saying HARD PASS. 

I fully get that we need offense.  I fully get that DT isn't generally a high value position.  It would take a monster prospect to take one there.  There isn't one in this class, but if there were and I didn't have any other players near that level?  You are damn right I would.  If you prefer to value Erik Flowers, or Kevin White over a yellow jacket defender I can't help you.  

[jgb]

17 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Bad decisions beget bad decisions.  Calling me "Macc" may be funny to you, but I was in the first wave of guys questioning him.  I was complaining about his failure to get deals done with guys he obviously wanted back before the end of 2015.  That was before his coveted executive of the year trophy.

Here is your logic.  It is 2007 and you are appointed GM of the Detroit Lions.  Calvin Johnson is sitting there, but the team has drafted Charles Rodgers, Roy Williams and Mike Williams.  Warfish is saying HARD PASS. 

I fully get that we need offense.  I fully get that DT isn't generally a high value position.  It would take a monster prospect to take one there.  There isn't one in this class, but if there were and I didn't have any other players near that level?  You are damn right I would.  If you prefer to value Erik Flowers, or Kevin White over a yellow jacket defender I can't help you.  

What if we are on the clock and there is a QB available that the Jets brain trust think is the next Pat Mahomes?

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

What if we are on the clock and there is a QB available that the Jets brain trust think is the next Pat Mahomes?

You ALWAYS take the QB.  Any QB that doesn't embarrass himself (cough, cough Hackenberg) is usually worth more than you paid for him.  See Bridgewater, Bradford, etc.  Hell, Rosen did embarrass himself and he still got a 2nd and 5th back. 

[BettyBoop]

3 hours ago, Beerfish said:

You avoided all the points i made other than to say some nebulous, oh yeah but we can't ignore defense!

We have NO OLINE

We have almost no good weapons on offense.

Our offense was dead last.

We need help everywhere, we do need CBs, we do need pass rushers. 

If it is even a close decision between two players we need to go offense.

Adams is the most overrated player in the league.  I COMPLETELY DISAGREE

Now on to the rest of your post.  What do you propose?  We only have so many resources.   AS i STATED, TWO NEW CORNERS AND AN OLB

We have 4 picks in the 1st three rounds.

Our offense was dead last in the league.  YES, IT NEEDS IMPROVEMENT BUT NOT AT THE TOTAL EXPENSE OF THE DEFENSE

the oline was about the worst in the league.  YES IT NEEDS IMPROVEMENT BUT NOT AT THE TOTAL EXPENSE OF THE DEFENSE

QB is the most important position on the team.  AND YOUR POINT IS?  DEFENSE PLAYS A CRITICAL PART OF THE TEAM'S SUCCESS TOO.

 We have favoured the defense for over a decade.  AND YOUR POINT IS?  SO THE DRAFTING OF PLAYERS HAS BEEN HORRIBLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL.  THAT DOESN'T MEAN TO IGNORE HALF YOUR TEAM.

[BettyBoop]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Funny, I shudder to think about having to watch the 32nd ranked offense score a pathetic ~17 points per game again in 2020.

With the one single exceptional outlier Ryan Fitzmagic year...the Jets averaged a ranking of 27th in Offense for the entire DECADE of the 2010's.  Offensive Rankings of 32, 29, 28, 26, 22, 25, 30, 25......

Over a similar span, we produced Top-11 Defenses 9 out of the last 11 years.

Over that same period, we had 3 winning seasons (including the Fitzmagic year) in 11 seasons.

The two years we did better on offense, 2010 (10th ranked) and 2015 (11th ranked) we finished 11-5 and 10-6, respectively.

 If you don't see the problem here.......

So your point is the team did well both both the offense and defense played well.

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

Heard round these parts recently there’s a more likely chance of Adams being traded then initially thought. 

 

[NYJ1]

Corners and edge rusher is what the defense needs. I too loved the job Williams did for us but that is no reason to neglect badly needed pieces.

[JustInFudge]

6 hours ago, BettyBoop said:

Many posters believe that the 2020 Jets don't need any help on defense.  They firmly believe that Greg Williams can make do with whatever resources he has.  That's simply not true.  He indeed did a remarkable job in 2019 with a bunch of nobodies at corner and LB but weak competition had something to do with that.  How much?  Who knows!  But those who want to trade Adams because whatever Williams has he will adjust accordingly.  Nonsense!  Adams (and Maye) held that secondary together and without the Prez, the results would have been terrible.

Douglas is smart enough to realize that his team needs two new corners and an outside LB threat AND needs to keep both safeties intact in order to improve the team overall.  All this 'only offense is needed in 2020' is just plain stupid.

The Jets do need help at CB and Pass rusher but does it really matter if we cant block or we dont have WR's who can get open for our franchise QB?  I'm on record, I'd go all offense this offseason and throw UDFA's at defense if necessary.  Go yolo on offense and just try to outscore everyone.  They need to know what they have in Sam. Worry about Defense after you've figured that out.  This team has been so committed to Defense that it's nauseating. Make do with what you have which is #3 overall pick on the DL, the highest paid LB'er in the league, JamAllPro, Maye and some young dudes who showed some talent and will have to work their ass off to make the team.  Bring back Poole and Jenkins and hope to stay healthy next year. 

It's time to take the opposite extreme for once because clearly this investment in Defense isnt working even when they hit on the pick.  Now, I'm fully aware they have to field a defense and you cant completely ignore it which is why I'm pro keeping Jamal but this organization needs a cultural/mindset shift and this is the year to do it.  

 

[T0mShane]

57 minutes ago, Samtorobby47 said:

Heard round these parts recently there’s a more likely chance of Adams being traded then initially thought. 

 

 

[joewilly12]

1 hour ago, Samtorobby47 said:

Heard round these parts recently there’s a more likely chance of Adams being traded then initially thought. 

 

[Jetscode1]

7 hours ago, BettyBoop said:

Many posters believe that the 2020 Jets don't need any help on defense.  They firmly believe that Greg Williams can make do with whatever resources he has.  That's simply not true.  He indeed did a remarkable job in 2019 with a bunch of nobodies at corner and LB but weak competition had something to do with that.  How much?  Who knows!  But those who want to trade Adams because whatever Williams has he will adjust accordingly.  Nonsense!  Adams (and Maye) held that secondary together and without the Prez, the results would have been terrible.

Douglas is smart enough to realize that his team needs two new corners and an outside LB threat AND needs to keep both safeties intact in order to improve the team overall.  All this 'only offense is needed in 2020' is just plain stupid.

I'm all in on using each draft pick on the offensive side of the ball because the Jets offense was quite offensive.  They need every pick to help Darnold.  

[Warfish]

3 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Bad decisions beget bad decisions. 

True enough.

3 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Calling me "Macc" may be funny to you, but I was in the first wave of guys questioning him. 

Of course, everyone says that now.  Same way everyone says they doubted Bowles, Sanchez, Geno, etc. first.  

If you so, sure.

3 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Here is your logic.

Here is MY logic:

We were 7th in Defense.  Top 10 Defenses have not led to winning seasons.

We were 32nd in Offense.  Top 10 Offenses led to our best seasons past few decades.

There will be great Offensive picks available in the 2020 draft.  At O-line.  At WR.

We should take them.  The O needs alot more help than the D.

That is my logic.

I refuse to buy into the "well, this time the D lineman we draft will REALLY be the next "inset great D-lineman here"".  I don't care, I don't value a D-Lineman, nor Edge tbqh, as much as I value Offense, O-Linemen, WR's, scoring points.

That is my logic.  No "BAP regardless of need" in sight.

[14 in Green]

4 hours ago, jgb said:

What if we are on the clock and there is a QB available that the Jets brain trust think is the next Pat Mahomes?

Please.... f**king take him!!!!

....He said half jokingly.

 

[joewilly12]

4 hours ago, jgb said:

What if we are on the clock and there is a QB available that the Jets brain trust think is the next Pat Mahomes?

[#27TheDominator]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

True enough.

Of course, everyone says that now.  Same way everyone says they doubted Bowles, Sanchez, Geno, etc. first.  

If you so, sure.

Here is MY logic:

We were 7th in Defense.  Top 10 Defenses have not led to winning seasons.

We were 32nd in Offense.  Top 10 Offenses led to our best seasons past few decades.

There will be great Offensive picks available in the 2020 draft.  At O-line.  At WR.

We should take them.  The O needs alot more help than the D.

That is my logic.

I refuse to buy into the "well, this time the D lineman we draft will REALLY be the next "inset great D-lineman here"".  I don't care, I don't value a D-Lineman, nor Edge tbqh, as much as I value Offense, O-Linemen, WR's, scoring points.

That is my logic.  No "BAP regardless of need" in sight.

Saying that offense is more important than defense isn't drafting for need.  It is valuing offense more than defense.  

[T0mShane]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Saying that defense is more important than offense isn't drafting for need.  It is valuing offense more than defense.  

Here is my #bigboard at 11:

1: Wirfs or Thomas or Wills

2. Jeudy or Lamb

3. Humphrey or Biadasz

4. Epenesa

5. Gross-Matos 

[Vader]

I think this year shows that players like Mosely and Williamson are expensive and expendable tbh

[Beerfish]

29 minutes ago, Vader said:

I think this year shows that players like Mosely and Williamson are expensive and expendable tbh

Totally agree and this is part of the value of a position many of us have talked about for ages.  We simply plugged in our backups and they did fine, because ILB has a set limited impact on a game.  Sure it is nice to have the best but the gap between the best and decent play is not that much.

Same thing for interior Dline.

Much worse if you lose your QB or a CB or your one big olb pass rusher or weapon WR/TE

[Jet Nut]

11 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Adams is the most overrated player in the league.

Sure he is.

[Darnold Schwarzenegger]

5 hours ago, NYJ1 said:

Corners and edge rusher is what the defense needs. I too loved the job Williams did for us but that is no reason to neglect badly needed pieces.

Funny thing is, the offense has been neglected for a decade. Jets need olineman and wrs more than they need an edge or cb. We had our chance to get an edge last year with Josh Allen. Macc screwed that up

[Jetsfan80]

What if we are on the clock and there is a QB available that the Jets brain trust think is the next Pat Mahomes?

You take Jamal Adams instead. Duh.

[Apache 51]

Just wait till he gets an Offense to work with him.

[Vader]

12 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Totally agree and this is part of the value of a position many of us have talked about for ages.  We simply plugged in our backups and they did fine, because ILB has a set limited impact on a game.  Sure it is nice to have the best but the gap between the best and decent play is not that much.

Same thing for interior Dline.

Much worse if you lose your QB or a CB or your one big olb pass rusher or weapon WR/TE

seriously. watching the Eagles and Fletcher Cox and how the announcers were like "4 first rounders on this Philly DL".... i was like wtf.

If you don't have an absolute game-changer, don't pay a premium for a plug in.

and the point about impact on the game -- you have to play to impact it...

That groin Mosely has -- that's bc he was dropping into coverage and doing hip stuff he never did on such a scale. groins linger and get reinjured as well...

[rangerous]

On 1/8/2020 at 12:56 PM, JetsLife said:

Well in today’s game you must be able to light up the scoreboard. Seems Jets best chance to do that is vastly improve the offensive line - at least from a personnel perspective. 
 

Defensively, IMO the priority should be building a dominant pass rush (easier said than done - premier pass rushers are at a premium). Super Bowl participants almost always seem to possess a potent pass rush. 

I’d be intrigued to see what a 2020 Jets team could do with a road-grading o line and juiced-up pass rush. 

imo you need to light up the scoreboard but the easiest way, since they are heading that way,  to help this defense is to field a reliable offense.  get an offense that can score points reliably in the red zone, convert third downs and get those tough first downs and the defense can probably be made up of patchwork type players.  if they can throw in a top flight corner, that would be good.  a really good edge rusher is probably asking for too much at this stage.