One Big Fat Jamal Adams Thread, It's All The Same Discussion, Anyway (MERGED ELEVENTY-BILLION)

[British Jet]

5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Jamal’s Instagram right now. Good luck, Douglas.

 

Ffs. Come on Jamal. 

[British Jet]

1 hour ago, choon328 said:

How many were Pro Bowlers after their rookie year? Bc that's when people want to judge GM's. That's also why I said "Immediate Impact".

As you asked...

Basically it’s impossible. 
 

 

[Jetsfan80]

13 minutes ago, British Jet said:

Ffs. Come on Jamal. 

Yet some people still think he won't make trouble in negotiations.  

"There's no evidence of this!!!!!!"

lol

[British Jet]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yet some people still think he won't make trouble in negotiations.  

"There's no evidence of this!!!!!!"

lol

He doesn’t help himself. A leader of this franchise shouldn’t act like a child or put out thinly veiled nonsense messages. 
 

I want players of his ability but it’s like he’s sitting by his phone waiting for someone at this organisation to talk about him. 
If the Cowboys offer us their 1st and 2nd and a 2nd next year I would take it. 

[choon328]

19 minutes ago, British Jet said:

As you asked...

Basically it’s impossible. 
 

 

Exactly my point

[Big_Slick]

6 hours ago, jgb said:

Because we had a bad record with him in the starting lineup, therefore he was not be an impact player. But Darnold is an elite-QB-in-disguise and only his bad supporting cast is holding him back from winning more games. ?

It's the cognitive dissonance that allows the same argument to convince some that Jamal needs to be traded but that Darnold just needs supporting talent to blossom. 

To compare Adams to Sam when both had a terrible surrounding cast is disingenuous at best. Apples to oranges comparison. Adams was GW's only weapon he could use to attack the QB and he used him in multiple non-SS roles; an edge rusher, blitz safety, ILB while he was exposing the secondary to gaping holes when he most often didn't make an impact when he blitzed. You can discount the Daniel Jones and the Haskins sacks, both rookies that were in over their heads. Adams always try's for the sports center hits and fails to form tackle and wrap up - ego maniac that considers himself a 'dawg' and the other D players well below his self proclaimed elite level.

Meanwhile Sam lifted the worst offensive, without considering the massive injuries, in the league to a 7-3 record *after* recovering from mono and having to wear a 15lb flack jacket all season.

[Big_Slick]

6 hours ago, TeddEY said:

What year do you think we'll see the transformation?

I give it three years and then Jamal go trans and starts competing in women sports.

[Guilhermezmc]

My point is Mahomes is a 50td mvp Superbowl Champion who isn't crying about a new contract, why is that our safety is making a show for a new one?

[Guilhermezmc]

JD gave the perfect answer in the press conference, the plan is to keep bom but listen to offers. Get Dallas on the hotline!

[Jetsfan80]

22 minutes ago, choon328 said:

Exactly my point

What was your point, that we can't judge a GM for several years?

[ZachEY]

52 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Jamal’s Instagram right now. Good luck, Douglas.

 

Lack of self awareness is perhaps the most dangerous trait of all.

[choon328]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

What was your point, that we can't judge a GM for several years?

That you can't judge a draft class after 1 year

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, TeddEY said:

Lack of self awareness is perhaps the most dangerous trait of all.

Wait. Are you referring to Jamal or to me?

[ZachEY]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Wait. Are you referring to Jamal or to me?

[HawkeyeJet]

Welp.  Jane knows the Cowboys.

 

[jgb]

46 minutes ago, Big_Slick said:

To compare Adams to Sam when both had a terrible surrounding cast is disingenuous at best. Apples to oranges comparison. Adams was GW's only weapon he could use to attack the QB and he used him in multiple non-SS roles; an edge rusher, blitz safety, ILB while he was exposing the secondary to gaping holes when he most often didn't make an impact when he blitzed. You can discount the Daniel Jones and the Haskins sacks, both rookies that were in over their heads. Adams always try's for the sports center hits and fails to form tackle and wrap up - ego maniac that considers himself a 'dawg' and the other D players well below his self proclaimed elite level.

Meanwhile Sam lifted the worst offensive, without considering the massive injuries, in the league to a 7-3 record *after* recovering from mono and having to wear a 15lb flack jacket all season.

Seems to be an analysis that begins with the desired conclusion.

[Sperm Edwards]

4 hours ago, slats said:

Jets invested over $18M guaranteed over six years because they believed in what Joe Douglas can bring to the table. He's not on a one year trial, he's the guy. If he chooses to trade Jamal, I'll applaud the move and look forward to seeing what he does with the capital he gets in return. I think the man should be able to use whatever he has at his disposal to improve the roster as he sees fit. 

And if he doesn't trade him there's no need to do anything else with him. There should be no rush to extend him. He's under the Jets' control on-the-cheap for the next three years if they want. 

Yep, if he can't draft then it isn't going to matter whether he traded Adams or not, because he's going to be here for a long time.

Let's see if Douglas can build a good, consistent, built-to-last offense; and yes that probably means using someone else's first round pick on the offense instead of forgoing another good 1st rounder for a safety. The last guy sure couldn't build one. Nor the guy before him. Nor the guy before him either, really. 

As you alluded to earlier - and I've said many times myself - a 1st round safety is one of the last pieces of a puzzle, not the cornerstone to fill around. It's a nice piece to have, but isn't a requirement. He also may just be more valuable to teams who are already otherwise contenders to push them over the top, instead of a Jets team lacking the basic building blocks those others already have. Even still I'm not seeing any 6th-overall-pick value offers being thrown the Jets' way. Why is he more valuable to the Jets than to everyone else? Because we drafted him? That's a weak answer, but really it's the only answer. 

For the Jets, it's more important to further gauge what Darnold is & isn't, without all the he-coulda-been / he-woulda-been conjecture, than locking up a friggin' safety. Locking up the wrong QB is more damaging than failing to lock up a safety, no matter what the latter's individual awards. 

After being concerned about some of his prior move (and non-move) failures, I'm optimistic that Douglas hasn't cut his own balls off by locking up Adams without any immediate need to do so over the past month when some people (including Adams) were calling for it, leaving the team's flexibility intact. It shows forward thinking. What he does with it is what we'll find out, because forward planning with no execution = Idzik II. 

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I expect you to look at them more objectively since that's not how the league operates, and there's a new GM in house, and we have no choice but to trust that he'll make smart picks.  Not worry about it so much that you're willing to sacrifice draft capital for "proven talent" that costs a lot and might not play hard here.  

I am looking at it objectively. Even the greats hit about 50% of the time in the first round. No I haven't done a full analysis.

Most first time GMs fail.

Thus I do not believe draft picks (especially outside the first) are worth very much in the hands of any GM and especially a first time GM. Certainly not as much as a pro bowl player.  Maybe I'll feel differently if JD proves he's the man for the job, but an objective analysis can only be based on those things we know in the present. 

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

I am looking at it objectively. Even the greats hit about 50% of the time in the first round. No I haven't done a full analysis.

Most first time GMs fail.

Thus I do not believe draft picks (especially outside the first) are worth very much in the hands of any GM and especially a first time GM. Certainly not as much as a pro bowl player.  Maybe I'll feel differently if JD proves he's the man for the job, but an objective analysis can only be based on those things we know in the present. 

 

If you only hit on about 50 % of your 1st rounders, then you should be rooting for us to get a 2nd first rounder.  Then we'll maximize our chances of hitting and getting ourselves at least one future multi-year All-Pro at a premium position.

Again.  46 % of all drafted Hall of Famers came from the 1st round.  You can't win in the NFL without playing the lottery.  Successful teams are not built without a core of homegrown talent.  

[BROOKLYN JET]

“My opinion on Jamal has been consistent since I arrived here,” Douglas said. “Jamal’s an unbelievable young player. Again, our plan is to keep Jamal here a long time.” 

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/ny-jamal-adams-jets-20200420-rx6l2imusbbwtfg5k2c44m7fta-story.html

[Big_Slick]

12 minutes ago, jgb said:

Seems to be an analysis that begins with the desired conclusion.

No. Just an objective analysis based on observation and not a predetermined opinion.

[jgb]

10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

If you only hit on about 50 % of your 1st rounders, then you should be rooting for us to get a 2nd first rounder.  Then we'll maximize our chances of hitting and getting ourselves at least one future multi-year All-Pro at a premium position.

Again.  46 % of all drafted Hall of Famers came from the 1st round.  You can't win in the NFL without playing the lottery.  Successful teams are not built without a core of homegrown talent.  

Having more doesn't increase the value of each subsequent pick. If the percentage is 50%. Each pick has a 50% chance, they are independent variables. The question should be getting value for the specific player. A pro bowler (non kicker) in his prime is worth minimum 2 firsts to me. All pro, 3. 

And this 46% thing... Well guess what, I bet 100% of HOFers have made at least one all pro team. And you don't seem to mind trading one of those away.

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, Big_Slick said:

No. Just an objective analysis based on observation and not a predetermined opinion.

The thing about observations is they depend on your POV and are inherently subjective. Facts don't lie though. They are what form objective opinions.

[Jetsfan80]

9 minutes ago, jgb said:

Having more doesn't increase the value of each subsequent pick. If the percentage is 50%. Each pick has a 50% chance, they are independent variables. The question should be getting value for the specific player. A pro bowler (non kicker) in his prime is worth minimum 2 firsts to me. All pro, 3. 

A Pro Bowler at QB, OT, EDGE or CB is justifiably worth 2 or more 1st rounders.  Some QB's, like Pat Mahomes, are worth 10 or more first rounders.

A Pro Bowler at SS is not.  The Chiefs just won a Super Bowl with SS Kendall Fuller (former 3rd round pick) making a big play.  Every good franchise knows you don't need an elite SS to win a title.  And you can also easily get lucky and find an excellent SS without spending heavy draft capital.

I'm sure Joe Douglas understands this very basic concept, too.  Not all Pro Bowlers are equal.  Far from it.

[Big_Slick]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

The thing about observations is they depend on your POV and are inherently subjective. Facts don't lie though. They are what form objective opinions.

Your facts and mine appear to differ. Time will tell who was correct. Peace.

[82nd Airborne]

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

A Pro Bowler at QB, LT, EDGE or CB is justifiably worth 2 or more 1st rounders.  Some QB's, like Pat Mahomes, are worth 10 or more first rounders.

A Pro Bowler at SS is not.  The Chiefs just won a Super Bowl with SS Kendall Fuller (former 3rd round pick) making a big play.  Every good franchise knows you don't need an elite SS to win a title.  

Every champ team is built differently. Just because Ravens won with Trent Dilfer doesn't mean QB doesn't matter. 

Good players at many positions increases your chances to win. There are many formulae for success.

[LockeJET]

JAMAL ADAMS

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Big_Slick said:

Your facts and mine appear to differ. Time will tell who was correct. Peace.

We are both being subjective. Making both of our positions opinions. That is not a negative. But let's not pretend they are facts.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, jgb said:

Every champ team is built differently. Just because Ravens won with Trent Dilfer doesn't mean QB doesn't matter. 

Good players and many positions increases your chances to win. There are many formulae for success.

Yes.  But its easy to find trends in what positions a team invests heavily in and which positions impact a deep playoff run more.  

A failure to understand or agree with that point makes your take on Adams' worth nonsensical.

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yes.  But its easy to find trends in what positions a team invests heavily in and which positions impact a deep playoff run more.  

A failure to understand or agree with that point makes your take on Adams' worth nonsensical.

There you go again, choosing the argument you wish to debate rather than the one I was making. I leave you again to your piñata.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

There you go again, choosing the argument you wish to debate rather than the one I was making. I leave you again to your piñata.

 

Teams are built a lot of different ways was your point.

My point was very few of those successful teams built around a Safety.  

Thus it makes sense why it would be very hard to find a team willing to give up multiple 1sts for Adams, nor should Douglas stand firm on that price tag.

But sure, go ahead and run away from the argument with another gif or strawman.  This is entertaining.

[slats]

13 minutes ago, jgb said:

Every champ team is built differently. Just because Ravens won with Trent Dilfer doesn't mean QB doesn't matter. 

Good players at many positions increases your chances to win. There are many formulae for success.

If you can flip a low value position like strong safety for a high value position like WR or OT you improve your chances for success. Paying a low value position a premium lowers your chance at success. 

I won’t mind it if the Jets hold onto Adams and ride him three more years on the cheap and then take their comp pick, but I’d definitely prefer to trade him while his value is high. He’s an all pro because he’s a smart, instinctive player, not because he’s an all-world athlete. His athletic skills drop a bit and he could fall off the map, not unlike Revis at the end. I’d be looking to get while the getting’s good. 

[jgb]

14 minutes ago, slats said:

If you can flip a low value position like strong safety for a high value position like WR or OT you improve your chances for success. Paying a low value position a premium lowers your chance at success. 

I won’t mind it if the Jets hold onto Adams and ride him three more years on the cheap and then take their comp pick, but I’d definitely prefer to trade him while his value is high. He’s an all pro because he’s a smart, instinctive player, not because he’s an all-world athlete. His athletic skills drop a bit and he could fall off the map, not unlike Revis at the end. I’d be looking to get while the getting’s good. 

I am A-OK with trading Jamal for established players at "more impact positions." Of course some positions make a bigger impact--Hell, my mantra is "QBs make their own weapons, not the other way around." I just don't think trading an All Pro Bowl SS for a draft pick--any draft pick--is likely to get you someone better, even taking into account positional value. Some here like to conflate my position with being obtuse about position value (despite me acknowledging it again and again) or a love of Jamal (I'm happy to trade him).

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

I am A-OK with trading Jamal for established players at "more impact positions." Of course some positions make a bigger impact. I just don't think trading an All Pro Bowl SS for a draft pick--any draft pick--is likely to get you someone better, even taking into account positional value. Some here like to conflate my position with being obtuse about position value (despite me acknowledging it again and again) or a love of Jamal (I'm happy to trade him).

 

Likely to get you someone better than Adams?  Not really, but then again, we're talking about a mid-late 1st rounder we'd be getting.  Adams was taken 6th overall.

What you're ignoring is the upside if we nail the pick.  Say we get a best-case scenario and end up with a multi-year all-Pro at LT or WR.  Certainly then you'd be saying we got a heist by trading Adams for a 1st and perhaps a mid-rounder, no?  If you disagree with that point there's just nowhere to go with this debate (if there was anyways).