Who Do You Blame: Sam or The Jets?

[FidelioJet]

5 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Again if the QB is the most important piece , doesn't a FQB make those other things better . which is cause ,which is causation. 

Yes....but not young ones.  QB's have to be developed, have to learn the game and most importantly have to build confidence.

This is why we MUST surround TL with all available resources.

Because yes.  Once he's been built into a legitimate FQB he will, in fact, make the players around him better.  He can do more with less.

[56mehl56]

7 minutes ago, jgb said:

Revisionist history. Everyone was talking about how Miami's skill positions were all busts until Gase left town.

So again who were all the superstars for the Dolphins and Tannehill ?

[jgb]

1 minute ago, 56mehl56 said:

So again who were all the superstars for the Dolphins and Tannehill ?

Put down the broken beer bottle. I'm agreeing with you lol

[56mehl56]

8 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Yes....but not young ones.  QB's have to be developed, have to learn the game and most importantly have to build confidence.

This is why we MUST surround TL with all available resources.

Because yes.  Once he's been built into a legitimate FQB he will, in fact, make the players around him better.  He can do more with less.

Do Joe Burrow or Justin Herbert have all the pieces around them . FQB's shouldn't need to be developed. 

[56mehl56]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

Put down the broken beer bottle. I'm agreeing with you lol

I'm sorry it happens so infrequently - I just assumed ?

[ZachEY]

24 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Of course he's not the same guy...never said he was, but you made it seemed like anyone would be doing okay in this offense and Darnold is the worst QB in the NFL...I just pointed out that a legitimate veteran has been just as bad.  

Try and blame it on the 3rd year QB that's been handled as poorly as any high level prospect ever has - fine with me...but I'm not buying it.  Darnold's 1st year was very promising....

We will eventually find out.

I didn't make it seem like "anyone" would be doing okay in this offense.  I said that better QBs would do better in this offense.  I did say that Darnold is the worst QB in the NFL because his stats and performance dictate that.  And last year, his stats and performance sort of dictated he was bottom 3.  And the year before that, his stats and performance dictated he was bottom 3 as well.

You can call year 1 promising all you like, but what it really was, was a bad year overall, that ended with two good games out of four.  You're projecting that as what Darnold is or should or could be, when in reality, those games were the anomaly.  I've used this example before, but I can make the identical jump shot as Steph Curry.  Identical.  There reason he's a superstar and I'm talking to you about Sam Darnold on Jet Nation Dot Com is that he can make it with regularity, and when I do it, it's pure luck.  If it's tough to follow, Darnold's the me in this analogy, and Steph Curry is good QBs.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, TeddEY said:

I didn't make it seem like "anyone" would be doing okay in this offense.  I said that better QBs would do better in this offense.  I did say that Darnold is the worst QB in the NFL because his stats and performance dictate that.  And last year, his stats and performance sort of dictated he was bottom 3.  And the year before that, his stats and performance dictated he was bottom 3 as well.

You can call year 1 promising all you like, but what it really was, was a bad year overall, that ended with two good games out of four.  You're projecting that as what Darnold is or should or could be, when in reality, those games were the anomaly.  I've used this example before, but I can make the identical jump shot as Steph Curry.  Identical.  There reason he's a superstar and I'm talking to you about Sam Darnold on Jet Nation Dot Com is that he can make it with regularity, and when I do it, it's pure luck.  If it's tough to follow, Darnold's the me in this analogy, and Steph Curry is good QBs.

Good analogy. I got a hole in one once. I never broke 90 on a round.

[Waka Flocka Flacco]

3 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

Rather nit picking peoples posts with stupid comments why don't you add something intelligent to the conversation

There isn't anything intelligent to add to the conversation about how the coach nobody watches coach is definitely the worst ever while the quarterback everybody watches play badly is probably actually good. Because it's about feelings.

[FidelioJet]

13 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Do Joe Burrow or Justin Herbert have all the pieces around them . FQB's shouldn't need to be developed. 

I'm sorry.  My mistake - I didn't realize the Chargers and Bengals were having such good seasons.

And Yes...they have FAAAAAR more offensive talent and coaching support than the Jet have had under the 3 years he's been the QB.

[FidelioJet]

5 minutes ago, Waka Flocka Flacco said:

There isn't anything intelligent to add to the conversation about how the coach nobody watches coach is definitely the worst ever while the quarterback everybody watches play badly is probably actually good. Because it's about feelings.

So you're here simply to troll?

[56mehl56]

Just now, FidelioJet said:

I'm sorry.  My mistake - I didn't realize the Chargers and Bengals were having such good seasons.

And Yes...they have FAAAAAR more offensive talent and coaching support than the Jet have had under the 3 years he's been the QB.

Who's to say if you swapped Darnold with Burrow or Herbert the Jets would be better and the Chargers or Bengals would have 0 wins.  If available would you take Anthony Lynn or Zac Taylor right now if Gase was fired . Again the argument is the QB is the most important piece , those teams have QB's .

Before the season who would you say was the best of the 3 rb's (Bell/Ekeler/Mixon) . Sure Keenan Allen is a stud but who are the other wr's for LAC. Don't tell me a broken down AJ Green would be a factor for the Jets. Boyd is slightly better than Crowder , and Tee Higgins is virtually Mims . LAC has a decent TE in Henry, Cin has none. And I'd argue Cinci's OLine is worse than the Jets. Again those teams look better because FQB's make the team around them better. 

[FidelioJet]

5 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Who's to say if you swapped Darnold with Burrow or Herbert the Jets would be better and the Chargers or Bengals would have 0 wins.  If available would you take Anthony Lynn or Zac Taylor right now if Gase was fired . Again the argument is the QB is the most important piece , those teams have QB's .

Before the season who would you say was the best of the 3 rb's (Bell/Ekeler/Mixon) . Sure Keenan Allen is a stud but who are the other wr's for LAC. Don't tell me a broken down AJ Green would be a factor for the Jets. Boyd is slightly better than Crowder , and Tee Higgins is virtually Mims . LAC has a decent TE in Henry, Cin has none. And I'd argue Cinci's OLine is worse than the Jets. Again those teams look better because FQB's make the team around them better. 

I really don't think you understand just how poor of a roster this Jets is and how bad a coach Gase is.

[southtown24th]

So the NY Jets ruined Sam Darnold?  i.e. Sam Darnold would have been a LOT BETTER on a different team, yes?

[jgb]

9 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Who's to say if you swapped Darnold with Burrow or Herbert the Jets would be better and the Chargers or Bengals would have 0 wins.  If available would you take Anthony Lynn or Zac Taylor right now if Gase was fired . Again the argument is the QB is the most important piece , those teams have QB's .

Before the season who would you say was the best of the 3 rb's (Bell/Ekeler/Mixon) . Sure Keenan Allen is a stud but who are the other wr's for LAC. Don't tell me a broken down AJ Green would be a factor for the Jets. Boyd is slightly better than Crowder , and Tee Higgins is virtually Mims . LAC has a decent TE in Henry, Cin has none. And I'd argue Cinci's OLine is worse than the Jets. Again those teams look better because FQB's make the team around them better. 

FQBs make their own weapons, not the other way around. In 2010, Austin Collie was on pace for 1,200 yards and 14 TDs with Manning before he got concussed. He scored <600 yards and 1 TD for the next and final 3 years of his career afterward.

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I really don't think you understand just how poor of a roster this Jets is and how bad a coach Gase is.

And you don't understand how bad Darnold is.

The most likely scenario is all of the above suck. 

[ZachEY]

7 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I really don't think you understand just how poor of a roster this Jets is and how bad a coach Gase is.

 

1 minute ago, jgb said:

And you don't understand how bad Darnold is.

The most likely scenario is all of the above suck. 

And, you can look okay as a QB while having the worst roster.

No one is expecting Darnold to take this team to the playoffs.  But in year 3, he shouldn't look like the league's worst QB and be worse than New Orleans' Brad Smith.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, TeddEY said:

 

And, you can look okay as a QB while having the worst roster.

No one is expecting Darnold to take this team to the playoffs.  But in year 3, he shouldn't look like the league's worst QB and be worse than New Orleans' Brad Smith.

The only thing his defenders can point to is "flashes" that are neither bright nor frequent. After three years. He doesn't look in control out there because he is not.

[Drums]

23 hours ago, jgb said:

Plenty of blame to go around. They all suck 

Would have voted for this

At the beginning of the year, I put the blame on the Jets but as the season went on, there's no excuse for the mistakes Sam makes. The guy apparently works super hard and has nothing to show for it. I don't know how coachable he is at this point and I don't see him improving much no matter where he goes. 

[Jets Voice of Reason]

He’s young and may figure it out eventually, but the top people in any profession don’t just get there because they are talented. They are disciplined, work hard, work smart, and don’t let obstacles get in their way. 

The mechanics are inexcusable at this level. That’s 100% coachable and he still throws with bad feet. What exactly is he working at with that? If so, and it isn’t working, why hasn’t he found someone else to help him? 

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Jets Voice of Reason said:

He’s young and may figure it out eventually, but the top people in any profession don’t just get there because they are talented. They are disciplined, work hard, work smart, and don’t let obstacles get in their way. 

The mechanics are inexcusable at this level. That’s 100% coachable and he still throws with bad feet. What exactly is he working at with that? If so, and it isn’t working, why hasn’t he found someone else to help him? 

Right now Gase is thinking "I don't get it. I get Mr. Darnold's coffee, Xerox his playbook, and keep his jock washed same as I did for Peyton. Why isn't it working this time?"

[FidelioJet]

1 hour ago, TeddEY said:

 

And, you can look okay as a QB while having the worst roster.

No one is expecting Darnold to take this team to the playoffs.  But in year 3, he shouldn't look like the league's worst QB and be worse than New Orleans' Brad Smith.

Oh, don't get me wrong.  There's no doubt he's awful right now - he's broken.  My point is this team ruined him.

He was better his rookie year, looked a bit better at the beginning of year two...but the more Gase sunk his claws into him and he started getting pummeled behind that sieve of an OL -with no-one to throw to and the slowest RB in the NFL....he just progressively got worse and worse.

You could see it happening in real-time.  

This thread asked a question.  And my answer to that question is I blame the Jets! - and it's not even close to a difficult choice.

[ZachEY]

39 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Oh, don't get me wrong.  There's no doubt he's awful right now - he's broken.  My point is this team ruined him.

He was better his rookie year, looked a bit better at the beginning of year two...but the more Gase sunk his claws into him and he started getting pummeled behind that sieve of an OL -with no-one to throw to and the slowest RB in the NFL....he just progressively got worse and worse.

You could see it happening in real-time.  

This thread asked a question.  And my answer to that question is I blame the Jets! - and it's not even close to a difficult choice.

Thing is, even if he was "better" his rookie year, he was terrible his rookie year.  The stats bear this out.  He's perhaps worse now in that he's trending towards historically bad, from just bad.  So, you can say the Jets "broke" or "ruined" him, but the evidence suggests, if this is the case, they defaced your kids finger painting, not a Rembrandt.

[morny]

We’ll never know if we would have been a FQB, chances are he wouldn’t.

But it is surely indisputable that he is a LOT worse now than he was in his rookie season*, and that surely points being the most to blame.

 

*that rookie season wasn’t especially good but there a handful of good games (Lions, Broncos, Texans, Packers) and a handful of solid rookie games (Dolphins home, Colts, Bills), which we have none of this year at all. This year it is just always on the level of the very worst of his rookie year (Browns, Vikings, Dolphins away).

I don’t know how you can look at that regression, and think the Jets aren’t at serious fault.
 

It’s a disgraceful dereliction of duty, made more infuriating when you look at how well the Bills have handled Allen to hide his deficiencies at first and help him fix his flaws over time. 

[Smashmouth]

4 hours ago, Waka Flocka Flacco said:

There isn't anything intelligent to add to the conversation about how the coach nobody watches coach is definitely the worst ever while the quarterback everybody watches play badly is probably actually good. Because it's about feelings.

If the QB was actually good he would not be making numerous mistakes in just about every game

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

If the QB was actually good he would not be making numerous mistakes in just about every game

Weaponz bro. Always weaponz.

[Smashmouth]

4 hours ago, jgb said:

Weaponz bro. Always weaponz.

I myself have in the past used the weapons argument, the fact is the weapons argument only holds water for so long. If you are a good QB that avoids mistakes at the NFL level it will impact your positive stats so you may not have as many TD's and you may not have as good a completion percentage BUT there are ways to avoid bad stats by simply playing the position well. If no ones open you check down you don't force the football into triple coverage and you don't make stupid throws across your body and you throw the ball away more often than not to get at least another play rather than just turn the ball over to the other team. One turn over can cost you 40 yards of Field position and that can be avoided. So yes weapons can effect QB's but it usually does not factor into stupid play there is no defending that and we have seen plenty of that with the last few QB's we marched in here.

[jgb]

3 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

I myself have in the past used the weapons argument, the fact is the weapons argument only holds water for so long. If you are a good QB that avoids mistakes at the NFL level it will impact your positive stats so you may not have as many TD's and you may not have as good a completion percentage BUT there are ways to avoid bad stats by simply playing the position well. If no ones open you check down you don't force the football into triple coverage and you don't make stupid throws across your body and you throw the ball away more often than not to get at least another play rather than just turn the ball over to the other team. One turn over can cost you 40 yards of Field position and that can be avoided. So yes weapons can effect QB's but it usually does not factor into stupid play there is no defending that and we have seen plenty of that with the last few QB's we marched in here.

Weaponz of course make a difference -- no one is arguing that -- but:

(1) they cannot transform the worst starting QB in the NFL into a FQB; and

(2) every bad QB on a bad team is not some secret FQB in disguise -- it's much more likely that he just sucks.

[The Crusher]

18 minutes ago, jgb said:

Weaponz of course make a difference -- no one is arguing that -- but:

(1) they cannot transform the worst starting QB in the NFL into a FQB; and

(2) every bad QB on a bad team is not some secret FQB in disguise -- it's much more likely that he just sucks.

He does make some mesmerizingly bad throws and decisions every game that would still be there no matter who he was throwing the ball to. He literally threw one directly into Jamal Adams chest last game 9-10 times would be a pick  if not pick 6. Then Later threw another one that was also dropped that should have been a pick 6. Even him running out of bounce for a couple yard loss for the historic Jamal Adams sack could have easily been avoided by throwing the ball away. I loved the kid coming out but he’s so bad now it actually makes more sense thinking he was never that good rather than thinking the Jets ruined what could have been a FQB. I do think they didn’t help him. I do think he has better football in him but at the end of the day he will mostly likely just be a lower tier starter. 

[jgb]

24 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

He does make some mesmerizingly bad throws and decisions every game that would still be there no matter who he was throwing the ball to. He literally threw one directly into Jamal Adams chest last game 9-10 times would be a pick  if not pick 6. Then Later threw another one that was also dropped that should have been a pick 6. Even him running out of bounce for a couple yard loss for the historic Jamal Adams sack could have easily been avoided by throwing the ball away. I loved the kid coming out but he’s so bad now it actually makes more sense thinking he was never that good rather than thinking the Jets ruined what could have been a FQB. I do think they didn’t help him. I do think he has better football in him but at the end of the day he will mostly likely just be a lower tier starter. 

It's too bad but it's time to move on. If he becomes an Andy Dalton, I will be impressed at this point.

[jetlaw]

This will play out in time. Sam is young and was a top ten pick. He will have an opportunity to play elsewhere. If he continues to turn the ball over like crazy, throw with horrible mechanics and to fail to read even the simplest of defenses, then it’s fair to conclude its his fault. If he steps up and plays consistently good football, the jets were at fault. I strongly predict it is the former. He’s just not good. This was a big swing and miss by McCagnan. Another Sanchez, geno smith or Richard Todd. A bust.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[jamesr]

I was going to come in and post that I would split it 80 / 20 Jets vs Sam.

Voted for Jets - and the result that gave was exactly 80 / 20!

[QB1]

the hand that Darnold has been dealt was laughably bad 

worst offensive weapons in the entire leuage, with huge injuries to his best options every single year 

worst coaching in the entire leuage 

worst OL in the leuage, and a complete revolving door at that 
 

mono

covid 

ghost game (golden boy Herbert able to hide his bellichick embarrassment in media irrelevance)

All of this crap adds up and results in a players confidence getting shattered 

[Philc1]

18 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

So again who were all the superstars for the Dolphins and Tannehill ?

Jarvis Landry, Kenyan Drake, Davante Parker, Laremy Tunsil.  Minkah Fitzpatrick on D

[Philc1]

19 hours ago, Biggs said:

Gase did not bench Tannehill. 

Not true.  Gase benched Tannehill in 2018, tried to make it look like an injury and not coaches decision, and then had a meltdown in a press conference when he got caught

[Gastineau Lives]

Haven't read through the thread but I'm assuming that the only two choices are Franchise QB (whatever the hell that means) or Dogsh*t

I'm also sure there's a weponz argument raging and no mention of whether NFL level coaching or an NFL level offensive line or an NFL level running game as wepones