Patriots and Thuney nowhere near a deal

[oatmeal]

31 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Fields is the next crappy Ohio State nfl qb and Wilson might be Alex Smith in between injuries

With next level scouting like this, the jets are all set ??????

[BCJet]

4 hours ago, Philc1 said:

LT: Becton

LG: Thuney

C McGovern

RG: Van Roten

RT: Sewell

Best OL in the league 

So you want to invest the 11th overall pick in 2020, the second overall pick in 2021 and $16+ million for Thuney all for one position group?  Not to mention we are now using top 3 picks on Right Tackles a spot you can easily fill in Free Agency?

I dont think thats how good teams are built

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Crusher]

That’s because the Patriots have Bill Belicheck and don’t need top tier players to win. Duh!

[bitonti]

8 minutes ago, BCJet said:

So you want to invest the 11th overall pick in 2020, the second overall pick in 2021 and $16+ million for Thuney all for one position group?  Not to mention we are now using top 3 picks on Right Tackles a spot you can easily fill in Free Agency?

I dont think thats how good teams are built

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Looking at the history of the draft, taking a QB at 2 is a losing strategy. 

[FidelioJet]

4 hours ago, Philc1 said:

LT: Becton

LG: Thuney

C McGovern

RG: Van Roten

RT: Sewell

Best OL in the league 

Problem is we need a QB.

 

[oatmeal]

3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Problem is we need a QB.

 

Comical many want to build a fortress around the lowest rated passer in a clean pocket. As if this theoretical fortress will do anything but free up more time to f*** up. 

[BCJet]

13 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Looking at the history of the draft, taking a QB at 2 is a losing strategy. 

I completely understand that line of thinking.  Even taking it a step forward, if 4 QBs go in round 1, the numbers show that its likely 2 of them will be "busts" so thats a huge risk in itself.

I have no issue investing in the OL, and really think Thuney is a smart use of money.  My point is that if we dont want to use 2 on a QB, the smart thing is to move down by trading with a team that does want to take the risk on a QB.  That way we can add a QB at pick 5-8 and also build the OL or DL with the additional pick.  Had we not hit on Becton, thats one thing, but Sewell playing RT just doesnt make sense to me.

[nycdan]

19 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Looking at the history of the draft, taking a QB at 2 is a losing strategy. 

I was bored...

Year Name Position College NFL team Notes 1936 Riley Smith Quarterback Alabama Boston Redskins Second person ever drafted by the NFL; College Football Hall of Fame 1939 Sid Luckman‡ Quarterback Columbia Chicago Bears Pro Football Hall of Fame 1949 John Rauch Quarterback Georgia Detroit Lions College Football Hall of Fame 1950 Adrian Burk* Quarterback Baylor Baltimore Colts 2× Pro Bowl 1951 Bob Williams Quarterback Notre Dame Chicago Bears College Football Hall of Fame 1954 Lamar McHan Quarterback Arkansas Chicago Cardinals   1956 Earl Morrall Quarterback Michigan State San Francisco 49ers 3× Super Bowl champion, NFL Most Valuable Player (1968) 1960 George Izo Quarterback Notre Dame St. Louis Cardinals   1961 Norm Snead* Quarterback Wake Forest Washington Redskins 4× Pro Bowl 1962 Roman Gabriel Quarterback NC State Los Angeles Rams College Football Hall of Fame; 4× Pro Bowl, NFL Most Valuable Player (1969) 1971 Archie Manning Quarterback Mississippi New Orleans Saints 2× Pro Bowl 1973 Bert Jones Quarterback LSU Baltimore Colts Pro Bowl (1976), NFL Most Valuable Player (1976) 1993 Rick Mirer Quarterback Notre Dame Seattle Seahawks   1998 Ryan Leaf Quarterback Washington State San Diego Chargers   1999 Donovan McNabb* Quarterback Syracuse Philadelphia Eagles 6× Pro Bowl 2012 Robert Griffin III Quarterback Baylor Washington Redskins Heisman Trophy (2011), Pro Bowl (2012) 2015 Marcus Mariota Quarterback Oregon Tennessee Titans Heisman Trophy (2014) 2016 Carson Wentz Quarterback North Dakota St. Philadelphia Eagles Bert Bell Award (2017), Pro Bowl (2017) 2017 Mitchell Trubisky* Quarterback North Carolina Chicago Bears Pro Bowl (2018)

Some early wins with Luckman, Morrall.  Some good picks like Archie and Bert.  Then McNabb was solid.  Otherwise....wow.  Some real craptastic players there.  Overall, I guess I'd call it a coin flip leaning towards the bad side.

[flgreen]

5 minutes ago, oatmeal said:

Comical many want to build a fortress around the lowest rated passer in a clean pocket. As if this theoretical fortress will do anything but free up more time to f*** up. 

Yep

 

Austin Gayle

 

@PFF_AustinGayle

 

Lowest % of accurate passes thrown from a clean pocket in 2020, per

@PFF

: 26. Drew Lock (60%) 27. Nick Mullens (59%) 28. Gardner Minshew (59%) 29. Matt Stafford (58%) 30. Sam Darnold (56%) 31. Mitch Trubisky (54%) 32. Carson Wentz (51%)

[Sharky7337]

1 hour ago, neckdemon said:

lol.....you'll be surprised just how much better darnold will look with a team that can run the ball at will, with a real offensive scheme and good coaching......

compare that to feeding the ball to an ancient rb behind a mediocre at best o-line with a sh*tty coach who had a sh*t offensive scheme

Look how bad josh allen looked without a running game. At some point the excuses have to stop.

[Big Snell]

On 2/10/2021 at 5:14 AM, Philc1 said:

Good he can join Becton and Sewell on our OL next year 

As a long time Mets fan ,I can tell you what will happen. Thuney will court the Jets, drive his price up, then sign with the Pats. Trust me ,I know. I've been watching it this whole winter !

[nycdan]

2 minutes ago, Big Snell said:

As a long time Mets fan ,I can tell you what will happen. Thuney will court the Jets, drive his price up, then sign with the Pats. Trust me ,I know. I've been watching it this whole winter !

It's not always a bad thing.  Bauer signing with the Dodgers was a gift.  His contract is stupidly high and if he reverts even halfway back to his norm this season, it's going to be a cap-crusher for the next two years.  And if signing him meant losing Lindor, Conforto, or a possibly revitalized Thor next year, I'm happy to pass.

Applying to football.  Driving up the price of a guy you aren't getting anyway deprives one competitor of additional, precious cap dollars.  Perhaps a small consolation prize, but I have no regrets about Kirk Cousins going to MIN, or Anthony Barr going to....MIN.  Or even Antoine Winfield going to....MIN.  

[GreekJet]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

The expectations on 2 pick are going to be huge no matter what 

Sewell will be an all pro right away he has the highest pff lineman grade of all time. He is talented and will meet expectations 

These qbs are going to be mauled as rookies 

I think those expectations are a bit absurd. The kid started something like 18 games in college. We aren’t talking about a four year starter like Orlando Pace. There is likely going to be a learning curve.
 

 

[HighPitch]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

The expectations on 2 pick are going to be huge no matter what 

Sewell will be an all pro right away he has the highest pff lineman grade of all time. He is talented and will meet expectations 

These qbs are going to be mauled as rookies 

Ok thats an assumption but what is YOUR plan at qb? Sam stinks. We need a qb so the dice must be rolled no?

[sourceworx]

You guys want to throw big bucks at a Patriots OL??????

Some people will never learn....

[GreekJet]

19 minutes ago, nycdan said:

I was bored...

Year Name Position College NFL team Notes 1936 Riley Smith Quarterback Alabama Boston Redskins Second person ever drafted by the NFL; College Football Hall of Fame 1939 Sid Luckman‡ Quarterback Columbia Chicago Bears Pro Football Hall of Fame 1949 John Rauch Quarterback Georgia Detroit Lions College Football Hall of Fame 1950 Adrian Burk* Quarterback Baylor Baltimore Colts 2× Pro Bowl 1951 Bob Williams Quarterback Notre Dame Chicago Bears College Football Hall of Fame 1954 Lamar McHan Quarterback Arkansas Chicago Cardinals   1956 Earl Morrall Quarterback Michigan State San Francisco 49ers 3× Super Bowl champion, NFL Most Valuable Player (1968) 1960 George Izo Quarterback Notre Dame St. Louis Cardinals   1961 Norm Snead* Quarterback Wake Forest Washington Redskins 4× Pro Bowl 1962 Roman Gabriel Quarterback NC State Los Angeles Rams College Football Hall of Fame; 4× Pro Bowl, NFL Most Valuable Player (1969) 1971 Archie Manning Quarterback Mississippi New Orleans Saints 2× Pro Bowl 1973 Bert Jones Quarterback LSU Baltimore Colts Pro Bowl (1976), NFL Most Valuable Player (1976) 1993 Rick Mirer Quarterback Notre Dame Seattle Seahawks   1998 Ryan Leaf Quarterback Washington State San Diego Chargers   1999 Donovan McNabb* Quarterback Syracuse Philadelphia Eagles 6× Pro Bowl 2012 Robert Griffin III Quarterback Baylor Washington Redskins Heisman Trophy (2011), Pro Bowl (2012) 2015 Marcus Mariota Quarterback Oregon Tennessee Titans Heisman Trophy (2014) 2016 Carson Wentz Quarterback North Dakota St. Philadelphia Eagles Bert Bell Award (2017), Pro Bowl (2017) 2017 Mitchell Trubisky* Quarterback North Carolina Chicago Bears Pro Bowl (2018)

Some early wins with Luckman, Morrall.  Some good picks like Archie and Bert.  Then McNabb was solid.  Otherwise....wow.  Some real craptastic players there.  Overall, I guess I'd call it a coin flip leaning towards the bad side.

You can’t  make decisions based on this kind data. Ryan Leaf busting 25 years ago had nothing to do with Zach Wilson or Justin Fields. 

 

[Big Snell]

18 minutes ago, nycdan said:

I was bored...

Year Name Position College NFL team Notes 1936 Riley Smith Quarterback Alabama Boston Redskins Second person ever drafted by the NFL; College Football Hall of Fame 1939 Sid Luckman‡ Quarterback Columbia Chicago Bears Pro Football Hall of Fame 1949 John Rauch Quarterback Georgia Detroit Lions College Football Hall of Fame 1950 Adrian Burk* Quarterback Baylor Baltimore Colts 2× Pro Bowl 1951 Bob Williams Quarterback Notre Dame Chicago Bears College Football Hall of Fame 1954 Lamar McHan Quarterback Arkansas Chicago Cardinals   1956 Earl Morrall Quarterback Michigan State San Francisco 49ers 3× Super Bowl champion, NFL Most Valuable Player (1968) 1960 George Izo Quarterback Notre Dame St. Louis Cardinals   1961 Norm Snead* Quarterback Wake Forest Washington Redskins 4× Pro Bowl 1962 Roman Gabriel Quarterback NC State Los Angeles Rams College Football Hall of Fame; 4× Pro Bowl, NFL Most Valuable Player (1969) 1971 Archie Manning Quarterback Mississippi New Orleans Saints 2× Pro Bowl 1973 Bert Jones Quarterback LSU Baltimore Colts Pro Bowl (1976), NFL Most Valuable Player (1976) 1993 Rick Mirer Quarterback Notre Dame Seattle Seahawks   1998 Ryan Leaf Quarterback Washington State San Diego Chargers   1999 Donovan McNabb* Quarterback Syracuse Philadelphia Eagles 6× Pro Bowl 2012 Robert Griffin III Quarterback Baylor Washington Redskins Heisman Trophy (2011), Pro Bowl (2012) 2015 Marcus Mariota Quarterback Oregon Tennessee Titans Heisman Trophy (2014) 2016 Carson Wentz Quarterback North Dakota St. Philadelphia Eagles Bert Bell Award (2017), Pro Bowl (2017) 2017 Mitchell Trubisky* Quarterback North Carolina Chicago Bears Pro Bowl (2018)

Some early wins with Luckman, Morrall.  Some good picks like Archie and Bert.  Then McNabb was solid.  Otherwise....wow.  Some real craptastic players there.  Overall, I guess I'd call it a coin flip leaning towards the bad side.

If you look at this list, most of these QBs played for horrible organizations. A guy like Norm Snead was trapped in bad team hell for his whole 17 year career. He kept getting swapped to another bad team for their starting quarterback. Roman Gabriel was a pretty great player too. He came to the Rams when they were just starting to get good again. Then got dealt to the Eagles,who were,at the time ,the worst team in football,and he played the rest of his career injured. Bert Jones is interesting. He started off a bust (just like a QB that's near and dear to our hearts),but then the Colts got some talent around him and the light came on. He had a really great couple of years in the mid 70's, once throwing for over 3000 yards in a season, but ultimately got hurt behind a paper thin O-line and he was never the same. I was a big fan of his in the 70's and loved watching him throw to Roger Carr for all these long bombs.

[nycdan]

12 minutes ago, GreekJet said:

You can’t  make decisions based on this kind data. Ryan Leaf busting 25 years ago had nothing to do with Zach Wilson or Justin Fields. 

 

Of course not.  Hence why I said "I was bored".

4 minutes ago, Big Snell said:

If you look at this list, most of these QBs played for horrible organizations. A guy like Norm Snead was trapped in bad team hell for his whole 17 year career. He kept getting swapped to another bad team for their starting quarterback. Roman Gabriel was a pretty great player too. He came to the Rams when they were just starting to get good again. Then got dealt to the Eagles,who were,at the time ,the worst team in football,and he played the rest of his career injured. Bert Jones is interesting. He started off a bust (just like a QB that's near and dear to our hearts),but then the Colts got some talent around him and the light came on. He had a really great couple of years in the mid 70's, once throwing for over 3000 yards in a season, but ultimately got hurt behind a paper thin O-line and he was never the same. I was a big fan of his in the 70's and loved watching him throw to Roger Carr for all these long bombs.

Sadly, #2 picks are almost always going to play for horrible teams.  It's the nature of the draft.  It is probably unicorn-rare for a rookie QB picked that high to come into the league in a great situation and be successful.  Sanchez might be one of those rare ones.  #5 pick (because we traded up a lot).  If he had been just a little better...  I'm sure there are a few more but none jump to mind at the moment.

 

[Rhg1084]

45 minutes ago, nycdan said:

I was bored...

Year Name Position College NFL team Notes 1936 Riley Smith Quarterback Alabama Boston Redskins Second person ever drafted by the NFL; College Football Hall of Fame 1939 Sid Luckman‡ Quarterback Columbia Chicago Bears Pro Football Hall of Fame 1949 John Rauch Quarterback Georgia Detroit Lions College Football Hall of Fame 1950 Adrian Burk* Quarterback Baylor Baltimore Colts 2× Pro Bowl 1951 Bob Williams Quarterback Notre Dame Chicago Bears College Football Hall of Fame 1954 Lamar McHan Quarterback Arkansas Chicago Cardinals   1956 Earl Morrall Quarterback Michigan State San Francisco 49ers 3× Super Bowl champion, NFL Most Valuable Player (1968) 1960 George Izo Quarterback Notre Dame St. Louis Cardinals   1961 Norm Snead* Quarterback Wake Forest Washington Redskins 4× Pro Bowl 1962 Roman Gabriel Quarterback NC State Los Angeles Rams College Football Hall of Fame; 4× Pro Bowl, NFL Most Valuable Player (1969) 1971 Archie Manning Quarterback Mississippi New Orleans Saints 2× Pro Bowl 1973 Bert Jones Quarterback LSU Baltimore Colts Pro Bowl (1976), NFL Most Valuable Player (1976) 1993 Rick Mirer Quarterback Notre Dame Seattle Seahawks   1998 Ryan Leaf Quarterback Washington State San Diego Chargers   1999 Donovan McNabb* Quarterback Syracuse Philadelphia Eagles 6× Pro Bowl 2012 Robert Griffin III Quarterback Baylor Washington Redskins Heisman Trophy (2011), Pro Bowl (2012) 2015 Marcus Mariota Quarterback Oregon Tennessee Titans Heisman Trophy (2014) 2016 Carson Wentz Quarterback North Dakota St. Philadelphia Eagles Bert Bell Award (2017), Pro Bowl (2017) 2017 Mitchell Trubisky* Quarterback North Carolina Chicago Bears Pro Bowl (2018)

Some early wins with Luckman, Morrall.  Some good picks like Archie and Bert.  Then McNabb was solid.  Otherwise....wow.  Some real craptastic players there.  Overall, I guess I'd call it a coin flip leaning towards the bad side.

All that data means nothing on how Zach Wilson’s career will turn out. People realize this, no? 

[bitonti]

33 minutes ago, GreekJet said:

I think those expectations are a bit absurd. The kid started something like 18 games in college. We aren’t talking about a four year starter like Orlando Pace. There is likely going to be a learning curve.
 

 

This is the Orlando pace / Walter Jones draft all over again. Except Sewell is a better Walter (!) and Slater is poor man's Pace. Both will be instantly excellent. 

For those who want to trade down a bunch, that year is the example why quantity is not better than quality. 

[Rhg1084]

Just now, bitonti said:

This is the Orlando pace / Walter Jones draft all the over again. Except Sewell is a better Walter (!) and Slater is poor man's Pace. Both will be instantly excellent. 

For those who want to trade down a bunch, that year is the example why quantity is not better than quality. 

You realize this draft is loaded with offensive lineman and the Jets can easily get one at 23 or 34 right? That’s why the #2 pick will be on a QB and not and OL 

[bitonti]

27 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

Ok thats an assumption but what is YOUR plan at qb? Sam stinks. We need a qb so the dice must be rolled no?

Need is not a reason to reach. The plan is to see what Sam / Morgan and cj beathard can do behind a top 10 offensive line. And if /when that does not work out, find a young guy in 22. There are no shortcuts. Coach Saleh says this every time he gets in front of a microphone. They are not going from 2-14 to 14-2. It's more about building a program than drafting a savior. That's how we ended up with Sam at 23 a bust. 

[nycdan]

4 minutes ago, Rhg1084 said:

All that data means nothing on how Zach Wilson’s career will turn out. People realize this, no? 

Of course it does.  His career will closely resemble one of those guys.  The trick is figuring out which one

 

[bitonti]

1 minute ago, Rhg1084 said:

You realize this draft is loaded with offensive lineman and the Jets can easily get one at 23 or 34 right? That’s why the #2 pick will be on a QB and not and OL 

Last year had more top end guys. Sewells 19 film is better than all the other four from 20. Yes there are creed humphry types but the drop off between Sewell and let's say Leatherwood is massive. It's the difference between an all pro and a decent starter 

[Rhg1084]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

Last year had more top end guys. Sewells 19 film is better than all the other four from 20. Yes there are creed humphry types but the drop off between Sewell and let's say Leatherwood is massive. It's the difference between an all pro and a decent starter 

Yeah but the Jets need a QB so that’s why they’re not gonna draft Sewell. They’ll draft Wilson and then maybe Wyatt Davis or Leatherwood. Instead of rolling with Sam and Sewell

[bitonti]

2 minutes ago, Rhg1084 said:

Yeah but the Jets need a QB so that’s why they’re not gonna draft Sewell. They’ll draft Wilson and then maybe Wyatt Davis or Leatherwood. Instead of rolling with Sam and Sewell

Believe it or not the Jets have worse needs than qb. It's the most important position yes but the qb room is young and has potential (James Morgan) compared to other positions. 

They have zero edge rushers. But there's not a myles Garrett in the draft. Need is not a reason to reach. At 2 overall you take what is offered. 

 

[nycdan]

Sewell and Becton sound amazing on paper, but there's a real issue with forcing a guy who thinks he's and LT to play RT.  Just ask the Ravens.

If we sign Thuney and draft a starter on the inside, we have a very good OLine.  If you want to build an even better one, we could probably pry Ramzcyk away from the Saints for the #34 pick and another mid-rounder.  They are in the worst cap hell this league has ever seen.  And Ramzcyk is probably about as good as you would hope Sewell would be.

Looking at the 'top' mocks, the top-5 guys seem to include Trevor, Sewell, Fields, Wilson, Chase, Smith and Pitts in various orders.  My gut tells me if you aren't taking a QB, you do try to trade down to around the 5-7 range and take one of the pass catchers there.  Can't really go wrong and you'll have an extra 2nd this year and 1st next year for your troubles.

[bitonti]

12 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Sewell and Becton sound amazing on paper, but there's a real issue with forcing a guy who thinks he's and LT to play RT.  Just ask the Ravens.

The ravens are about to flip their 3rd Rd rt for a mid first Rd pick. Why is that such a terrible outcome? Sewell is not going to bust 

The downside of going qb at 2 is everyone getting fired. 

[T0mShane]

If Thuney is so good how come the Pats only went 7-9 last year 

[Fantasy Island]

9 hours ago, Maxman said:

Yes if the Jets aren't taking a QB at 2, then trade down and try to trade down twice imo.

If the Jets are not taking a QB it had better be because we acquired Watson.  Otherwise we are screwed.

[jetstream23]

5 hours ago, mrcoops said:

My spidey sense has been tingling about Slater and the Jets for a while now. He just seems like the kind of guy that Joe D would love to have. I could definitely see him being the target after a small trade down from 2.

I just started a thread on him in the Draft Forum.

[HighPitch]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

Need is not a reason to reach. The plan is to see what Sam / Morgan and cj beathard can do behind a top 10 offensive line. And if /when that does not work out, find a young guy in 22. There are no shortcuts. Coach Saleh says this every time he gets in front of a microphone. They are not going from 2-14 to 14-2. It's more about building a program than drafting a savior. That's how we ended up with Sam at 23 a bust. 

Lol dude that might be YOUR plan. Not too many want to see what sam and capt m can do. The reason we suck is we constantly pass on qbs. Right? So whether you like it or not grabbing a qb each draft until we find one is a necessity now. Gotta try. Roll the dice grab the ohio kid grab wilson grab someone. 

I dont see any way around this. 

[neckdemon]

1 hour ago, nycdan said:

Of course not.  Hence why I said "I was bored".

Sadly, #2 picks are almost always going to play for horrible teams.  It's the nature of the draft.  It is probably unicorn-rare for a rookie QB picked that high to come into the league in a great situation and be successful.  Sanchez might be one of those rare ones.  #5 pick (because we traded up a lot).  If he had been just a little better...  I'm sure there are a few more but none jump to mind at the moment.

 

andrew luck

[neckdemon]

2 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

Lol dude that might be YOUR plan. Not too many want to see what sam and capt m can do. The reason we suck is we constantly pass on qbs. Right? So whether you like it or not grabbing a qb each draft until we find one is a necessity now. Gotta try. Roll the dice grab the ohio kid grab wilson grab someone. 

I dont see any way around this. 

no actually the reason we suck is because we have drafted horribly for years and therefore the team is very thin on real talent. at #2 overall you need to come away with either a great player or a monster haul for trading your rights to pick a great player. of course drafts are a crapshoot but OT is one of the higher percentage positions to be project from college to the pros. sewell's scouting report has him as one of the best tackle prospects ever. Also becton might be better suited to right tackle anyway, he wasn't great at pass blocking. 

[bitonti]

11 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

Lol dude that might be YOUR plan. Not too many want to see what sam and capt m can do. The reason we suck is we constantly pass on qbs. Right? So whether you like it or not grabbing a qb each draft until we find one is a necessity now. Gotta try. Roll the dice grab the ohio kid grab wilson grab someone. 

I dont see any way around this. 

I don't understand how all these other teams are sniffing around darnold and we are convinced he's done 

Yes jd needs to roll the dice. He does not have to do it right now