QB Mechanics Question: Why So Many High and Behind Passes?

[Warfish]

One consistent aspect of Zach's play has been his penchant for passes that are either high, behind, or both.

It feels like we see half a dozen per game or more, where the reply shows a Jets WR trying to twist backwards to snag a pass behind them while they're in full stride.  This seems to be most evident on mid-range crossing routes (when the WR's are in true full stride), but we've also seen it alot in passes in the flats (where short-hopping the receiver also becomes an issue, overcompensation maybe?).

The question then is if this is a mechanics issue, or a decision making/game speed issue.

I'm not a QB coach, nor was I ever a QB. I was a pitcher, and the mechanics there are very different, so I offer it up to folks who know more about QB mechanics that I do.  Are you seeing anything mechanically with Zach that could help to explain the frequency of these high and wide passes?  He seems to throw off his back foot, or while falling back, an awful lot, and I've never heard that being considered good mechanics.  He doesn't seem to set his feet and throw.  Some of that may be complex as well, as he's often under pressure, which could be due to a beat up O-line, but also could be due to slow decision making and questionable field vision by Zach himself, leading him to hold onto the ball longer, and be slower to decide to pull the trigger, resulting in passes coming in a tiny bit late to the WR.

I do wonder if Zach is just not confident in his decision making or vision, and if that causes those split second delays all the way through his processes.  He does miss open guys more often than I'd like.  He holds the ball longer than I'd like.  Seeing a play where Zach does the pro "3 step drop, boom, pass is out" seems very rare.  Is that play calling?  Or Zach not seeing the field well or being able/willing to just throw it on those faster routes.

It's clear our O-line cannot protect him for a ton of time.  I feel like he gets adequate protection early in plays, doesn't make the throw, then the protection breaks, and he goes into hero ball/playground QB mode.  He is absolutely exceptional at evading rushers on some of these plays, just amazing at times how he dodges and slips guys.  Very impressive.  But most of these plays then seem to result in nothing, either a very late throw away out of bounds or otherwise away, or an incompletion (or a few a sack).  It doesn't feel like we're getting much out of that elusiveness when plays break down.

So we have a few topics here: 

1. Zach's mechanics vs. Zach's brain/confidence. What is the cause of the frequent high and wide passes?
2. The playcalling: Should we be calling more short-drop, quick passes, quick slants, timing routes where Zach just drops and throws, no time for long extended decision making and progressions and extended pass rush dodging.
3. And finally, what should Zach do when plays break down.  Some QB's get a hell of alot of rushing yards on those plays by pulling it down and running.  Zach has that level of elusiveness, clearly, should he be running more often (slide or not slide, thats a different question).

Ultimately, the current level of play will not suffice for a Super Bowl run.  He will have to improve eventually.  This isn;t about will he/won't he, but more looking at what the causes are, how they are treatable, and what can be done (by Zach, by LaFluer) to try and address them.

[Biggs]

1 minute ago, Warfish said:

 

Ultimately, the current level of play will not suffice for a Super Bowl run.  He will have to improve eventually.  This isn;t about will he/won't he, but more looking at what the causes are, how they are treatable, and what can be done (by Zach, by LaFluer) to try and address them.

Cause is probably a severe edipus complex or other mommy issues.  The cure is probably a multi-deminsional approach that includes but isn't limited to a Depravation chamber, hulicinagenics, chemo therapy, an EST seminar, dancing classes and a sex therapist preferably in their 50's.  

[56mehl56]

I feel his early high throws are a result of him coming out too amped up. Its like a fastball pitcher in baseball having no control early on in games.  They need to get him more relaxed and into the game , maybe start the game with a RPO type designed run to get him a hit and to settle him down. 

The other throws and inaccuracies are a result of him not setting hie feet , hard to tell without film breakdown to see how many are a result of bad habits or a direct result of the pass rush and poor line play. 

[Bronx]

My biggest concern is that he exposes the WRs. 

[More Cowbell]

It's  called the yips. The guy is just not calm back there

[derp]

I don’t think he trusts his eyes, but he also gets lazy with his footwork so it honestly could be either and is probably a little of both.

I think they need to make sure he gets the ball out faster. Whether that’s playcalling or asking him to have different rules in the pocket (ie if you see the rush then get of it to a hot read instead of dancing around) I don’t know.

Backups tend to get the ball out faster - is the playcalling different? He’s narrowly avoided turnovers on the backwards spin moves and the late across his body over the middle stuff. I don’t know if he wasn’t yelled at for doing the backwards spin the first time but I honestly thought yesterdays should’ve been a fumble six, even on replay, and I don’t think he’s cool enough under pressure to try that kind of stuff right now. Ball needs to just get out. Know where your outlet is and throw it.

I get the second reaction stuff is important but maybe let’s get just getting the ball out quick down before we work on second reaction stuff since the second reaction stuff hasn’t had good results. I guess he could run if he’s got a clear lane but I’d prefer he demonstrates the ability to throw the ball to a hot read or just away before we even get there or to the second reaction plays.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

His footwork is inconsistent. He is not always stepping into his throws with his lead foot directed at his target, i.e he gets flat footed at times. I feel like his issues are coachable, but that’s what I feel is causing many of his placement issues.

he also lacks touch in general. Which may be not as coachable. Everything is one speed and of his best throws are on slants and out routes. 

[kdels62]

I think the big thing these past two weeks is that he playing very good coverage corners. Against the Dolphins and after he settled in against the Steelers and even going back to his game against Tampa last year, if his first receiver wins he delivers quickly and accurately. If the man coverage is good tho, he starts to scan and his mechanics break down. So right now its mental and based on how quickly he can find a receiver that beats man coverage. The throws behind are just timing issues as it seems Zach and LeFleur spent most of the game against the Broncos trying to break a big throw. Zach lingered on those and then by the time his eyes found the crosser his timing was off. It was a bad gameplan by LeFleur and worse execution by Zach. 

I was checking out some of the stuff on his game against the Packers and the reality is that his receivers couldn't beat man coverage. Zach would then hesitate to throw into tight windows and after that hesitation it becomes backyard running. At least he's an excellent athlete. 

[HawkeyeJet]

He rushes everything.  He is playing way too fast.  Even when his feet are planted his arm lags his hips and feet and he ends up upright at best, falling away at worst rather then driving through.  

This is all conjecture on my part, but to me he looks like his idea of “driving” the ball is increased arm whip rather than driving through with his hips.  The first play of the game is a perfect example.  You can see his arm motion speed up considerably to try and fit in a laser, but his lower body doesn’t match.  Compare that to an early throw to Wilson on a zone read action and it’s night and day.  Both balls require zip, one looks effortless and the other looks like he’s trying to throw the ball through a brick wall.

[Darnold615]

12 minutes ago, HawkeyeJet said:

He rushes everything.  He is playing way too fast.  Even when his feet are planted his arm lags his hips and feet and he ends up upright at best, falling away at worst rather then driving through.  

This is all conjecture on my part, but to me he looks like his idea of “driving” the ball is increased arm whip rather than driving through with his hips.  The first play of the game is a perfect example.  You can see his arm motion speed up considerably to try and fit in a laser, but his lower body doesn’t match.  Compare that to an early throw to Wilson on a zone read action and it’s night and day.  Both balls require zip, one looks effortless and the other looks like he’s trying to throw the ball through a brick wall.

Agree. He’s been watching Aaron Rodgers too much. He isn’t there yet 

[IntoTheGreen]

It's not soley one thing. I agree with what others are saying, but he also isn't throwing with a lot of anticipation. Many of this throws he is waiting and relying on his arm to get it there once a receiver is open. This is leading to a lot of throws behind his receivers. 

[Ron Rico]

If the offense is gonna go 3 and out 6+ times a game, why not air it out? I'd rather see 3 hail mary attempts than the miserable chuck and duck crap we are seeing now.

[NYJ37/12]

47 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

It's  called the yips. The guy is just not calm back there

He's running for his life on every pass play. How could he ever be comfortable? I agree with the yips, I have them just watching this oline

[SuicidalSince98]

It’s mental not physical 

[JohnnyLV]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

One consistent aspect of Zach's play has been his penchant for passes that are either high, behind, or both.

It feels like we see half a dozen per game or more, where the reply shows a Jets WR trying to twist backwards to snag a pass behind them while they're in full stride.  This seems to be most evident on mid-range crossing routes (when the WR's are in true full stride), but we've also seen it alot in passes in the flats (where short-hopping the receiver also becomes an issue, overcompensation maybe?).

The question then is if this is a mechanics issue, or a decision making/game speed issue.

I'm not a QB coach, nor was I ever a QB. I was a pitcher, and the mechanics there are very different, so I offer it up to folks who know more about QB mechanics that I do.  Are you seeing anything mechanically with Zach that could help to explain the frequency of these high and wide passes?  He seems to throw off his back foot, or while falling back, an awful lot, and I've never heard that being considered good mechanics.  He doesn't seem to set his feet and throw.  Some of that may be complex as well, as he's often under pressure, which could be due to a beat up O-line, but also could be due to slow decision making and questionable field vision by Zach himself, leading him to hold onto the ball longer, and be slower to decide to pull the trigger, resulting in passes coming in a tiny bit late to the WR.

I do wonder if Zach is just not confident in his decision making or vision, and if that causes those split second delays all the way through his processes.  He does miss open guys more often than I'd like.  He holds the ball longer than I'd like.  Seeing a play where Zach does the pro "3 step drop, boom, pass is out" seems very rare.  Is that play calling?  Or Zach not seeing the field well or being able/willing to just throw it on those faster routes.

It's clear our O-line cannot protect him for a ton of time.  I feel like he gets adequate protection early in plays, doesn't make the throw, then the protection breaks, and he goes into hero ball/playground QB mode.  He is absolutely exceptional at evading rushers on some of these plays, just amazing at times how he dodges and slips guys.  Very impressive.  But most of these plays then seem to result in nothing, either a very late throw away out of bounds or otherwise away, or an incompletion (or a few a sack).  It doesn't feel like we're getting much out of that elusiveness when plays break down.

So we have a few topics here: 

1. Zach's mechanics vs. Zach's brain/confidence. What is the cause of the frequent high and wide passes?
2. The playcalling: Should we be calling more short-drop, quick passes, quick slants, timing routes where Zach just drops and throws, no time for long extended decision making and progressions and extended pass rush dodging.
3. And finally, what should Zach do when plays break down.  Some QB's get a hell of alot of rushing yards on those plays by pulling it down and running.  Zach has that level of elusiveness, clearly, should he be running more often (slide or not slide, thats a different question).

Ultimately, the current level of play will not suffice for a Super Bowl run.  He will have to improve eventually.  This isn;t about will he/won't he, but more looking at what the causes are, how they are treatable, and what can be done (by Zach, by LaFluer) to try and address them.

Well I am not a QB coach either but I will share some observations:

1. Some of the throws that people have crucified Zach for being "inaccurate" on were actually exactly where he wanted them to be, especially some of the swing passes where Zach threw it slightly back shoulder so they could get some TAC

2.  Watch any QB including Mahomes and you will see a lot of really inaccurate throws as well. We dismiss them because we view him as elite already and it is compounded by receivers catching a lot of the inaccurate balls whereas our team seems to drop a higher than normal percentage which is actually backed up by statistics

Having said that, Zach is definitely a rhythm and confidence fueled QB. LaFleur needs to do a WAY better job of getting him into games. It's why 4th quarter Zach is significantly better than 1st quarter Zach. LaFleur early is putting Zach in tons of 3rd and longs and with our OL against top defenses it is really hard to be successful against that.

Zach definitely needs to find a way to be calmer at the beginning of games and get in rhythm faster.

Without Breece we become an 11 focused team so Zach will have to step up to be more effective.

FWIW, ESPN Total QBR sees Zach as more average this year than his stats suggest so maybe things are not quite as dire as we want them to be.

Also reading the game threads people literally expect Zach to be perfect. He gets crucified on every throw. Even the long pass to Corey in the GB game was destroyed because "he did not leave him" even after Zach said he underthrew it a bit specifically to make sure it was a completion.

We just won at Pittsburgh, Miami at Green Bay and at Denver in a row. You cannot do that without some contribution from the QB. As an example if Flacco starts yesterday he is sacked like 8 times and we likely lose just due to field position.

[More Cowbell]

35 minutes ago, NYJ37/12 said:

He's running for his life on every pass play. How could he ever be comfortable? I agree with the yips, I have them just watching this oline

Look, I get that he is not comfortable but this isn't  new. He needs to think about what he has to do to get off a pass that is catchable.  On the first pass of the game yesterday  he sailed the ball over everyone's head. On that play he had the TE wide open for a 5 or 6 yard  gain without the guy running. Get the ball to the easy option. I hate to say it but Zach is going back to the bad habits he had last season. We will see against NE if he has more control  but I guarantee  he will see a lot of pressure from NE D. That defense is for real. 

[NYJ37/12]

11 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Look, I get that he is not comfortable but this isn't  new. He needs to think about what he has to do to get off a pass that is catchable.  On the first pass of the game yesterday  he sailed the ball over everyone's head. On that play he had the TE wide open for a 5 or 6 yard  gain without the guy running. Get the ball to the easy option. I hate to say it but Zach is going back to the bad habits he had last season. We will see against NE if he has more control  but I guarantee  he will see a lot of pressure from NE D. That defense is for real. 

He looks terrible, I agree

[Jetty]

ADHD

[clayton163v]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

One consistent aspect of Zach's play has been his penchant for passes that are either high, behind, or both.

It feels like we see half a dozen per game or more, where the reply shows a Jets WR trying to twist backwards to snag a pass behind them while they're in full stride.  This seems to be most evident on mid-range crossing routes (when the WR's are in true full stride), but we've also seen it alot in passes in the flats (where short-hopping the receiver also becomes an issue, overcompensation maybe?).

The question then is if this is a mechanics issue, or a decision making/game speed issue.

I'm not a QB coach, nor was I ever a QB. I was a pitcher, and the mechanics there are very different, so I offer it up to folks who know more about QB mechanics that I do.  Are you seeing anything mechanically with Zach that could help to explain the frequency of these high and wide passes?  He seems to throw off his back foot, or while falling back, an awful lot, and I've never heard that being considered good mechanics.  He doesn't seem to set his feet and throw.  Some of that may be complex as well, as he's often under pressure, which could be due to a beat up O-line, but also could be due to slow decision making and questionable field vision by Zach himself, leading him to hold onto the ball longer, and be slower to decide to pull the trigger, resulting in passes coming in a tiny bit late to the WR.

I do wonder if Zach is just not confident in his decision making or vision, and if that causes those split second delays all the way through his processes.  He does miss open guys more often than I'd like.  He holds the ball longer than I'd like.  Seeing a play where Zach does the pro "3 step drop, boom, pass is out" seems very rare.  Is that play calling?  Or Zach not seeing the field well or being able/willing to just throw it on those faster routes.

It's clear our O-line cannot protect him for a ton of time.  I feel like he gets adequate protection early in plays, doesn't make the throw, then the protection breaks, and he goes into hero ball/playground QB mode.  He is absolutely exceptional at evading rushers on some of these plays, just amazing at times how he dodges and slips guys.  Very impressive.  But most of these plays then seem to result in nothing, either a very late throw away out of bounds or otherwise away, or an incompletion (or a few a sack).  It doesn't feel like we're getting much out of that elusiveness when plays break down.

So we have a few topics here: 

1. Zach's mechanics vs. Zach's brain/confidence. What is the cause of the frequent high and wide passes?
2. The playcalling: Should we be calling more short-drop, quick passes, quick slants, timing routes where Zach just drops and throws, no time for long extended decision making and progressions and extended pass rush dodging.
3. And finally, what should Zach do when plays break down.  Some QB's get a hell of alot of rushing yards on those plays by pulling it down and running.  Zach has that level of elusiveness, clearly, should he be running more often (slide or not slide, thats a different question).

Ultimately, the current level of play will not suffice for a Super Bowl run.  He will have to improve eventually.  This isn;t about will he/won't he, but more looking at what the causes are, how they are treatable, and what can be done (by Zach, by LaFluer) to try and address them.

I honestly believe that it is a combination of poor to non-existent footwork and lazy ballhandling.  He simply does not set his feet.  When I watch replays, every single bad pass can be traced to poor footwork.  He seldom steps into his throws.  You wrote that you used to pitch.  Can you imagine trying to throw strikes flatfooted?  I used to catch, it cannot be done consistently.  You have to get your arm, torso and legs working in unison towards the direction you are throwing the ball.  The back foot has to have some angle (the pitching rubber is sideways for a reason).  The front foot must step towards the direction you are throwing.  This is one of Zach's problems.  Very poor footwork.  To be fair, he has had poor protection these last two weeks as we have badly lost the battle on the line of scrimmage.  That is not his fault.  But the bad throws are his fault.  Compare him to Brady.

We may not like him, but Brady thrives on technique.  He NEVER fails to set his feet.  Stop him from doing it and you pull Brady's teeth.  Everybody knows, hit him early and often.  Do not blitz him or let him step up.  Give him time and you are dead as a Mackerel.  Zach misses too many easy throws and I see a lack of consistency in both his ballhandling and his technique.  Is it bad coaching - I tend to doubt it  These guys are good.   Is Zach hardheaded and just not listening?  He seems like a quality kid.  Is he lazy?  I doubt it.  Is this a lack of practice?  It seems so hard to believe? 

But my analysis does not yield any other possibilities. 

Some suggest it is the result of a player who has never earned the starting job anywhere so the holes in his game were never addressed.   I mention it because I have no other ideas.  And this is just the footwork problem.

His ballhandling when taking snaps from center are amateur.   His read option has gotten better lately but not really.   Lafluer uses misdirection and we seldom fool anyone.   His poor footwork and poor ballhandling (he could cure it with coaching, cameras and effort) combine to hobble his run substitutes and leaves him throwing ducks.  I fear it is beginning to affect his confidence.  I know for certain he is getting his teammates creamed.  I fear it was the real reason behind Moore's public outburst.  All of the wideouts have gotten crushed due to passes that were behind them or late and/or high.   It has happened too often.

I said it before the season started after Zach got hurt.  Zach needs to learn what Mike White already sells.  Mike has left no stone unturned in his mission to make it in the NFL.  Zach leaves chips on the table.  He leaves juice in his lemon.  He is our #1 but his game has holes that need to be addressed.  The stuff he is missing is just coaching and attention to detail.  Geno Smith knew all of this on day one.  So did Mark Sanchez.  Zach seems unprepared.  And I see his talent.  The team is responding.  Is it to Zach or the coach?  Dunno.

 

 

[maury77]

These issues were all there in college (watch below)

 

[Paradis]

He could start by not taking 20 step drops into the arms of pass rushers on a wide arc into the backfield. 

Step in the pocket, go through his progressions… basic nfl stuff 

[clayton163v]

10 minutes ago, maury77 said:

These issues were all there in college (watch below)

 

 

Yep.  I tried to warn others.  Boy did they jump down my throat.  I wrote recently (I will not dig up the predraft analysis - too painful): 

I have made peace with Zach Wilson the Jet.  Did not want him.   Thought it idiotic to take the BYU covid-one-year wonder with the #2 pick.  Called it "collective madness".  He  will start for several more years.  I try to focus on what he does well.  And he is the man with the golden gun.   The team is responding.  

Either way, he controls the chariot and we are headed to the minefield.  Damn the torpedoes.

[chirorob]

2 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

I feel his early high throws are a result of him coming out too amped up. Its like a fastball pitcher in baseball having no control early on in games.  They need to get him more relaxed and into the game , maybe start the game with a RPO type designed run to get him a hit and to settle him down. 

The other throws and inaccuracies are a result of him not setting hie feet , hard to tell without film breakdown to see how many are a result of bad habits or a direct result of the pass rush and poor line play. 

I was going to post almost the exact same thing.

Something to calm him down early, get him into the flow of the game.   In general, as the game goes on it is footwork.

[Integrity28]

He is not good. He just throws far.

[thebuzzardman]

I blame Mormanism

[Larz]

The oxygen thin air. His balls were over inflated 

[maury77]

23 minutes ago, clayton163v said:

 

Yep.  I tried to warn others.  Boy did they jump down my throat.  I wrote recently (I will not dig up the predraft analysis - too painful): 

I have made peace with Zach Wilson the Jet.  Did not want him.   Thought it idiotic to take the BYU covid-one-year wonder with the #2 pick.  Called it "collective madness".  He  will start for several more years.  I try to focus on what he does well.  And he is the man with the golden gun.   The team is responding.  

Either way, he controls the chariot and we are headed to the minefield.  Damn the torpedoes.

Justin Fields being objectively terrible has allowed me to make peace with the pick, I’m just not expecting significant improvement from what we are seeing now.

[Matt39]

Innate. Have it or don’t generally.

[thebuzzardman]

7 minutes ago, Larz said:

The oxygen thin air. His balls were over inflated 

Lack of MILFS in the Denver area? 

[Larz]

Lower body. 
 

Probably not getting his weight on his  front foot or stepping towards the target. 
 

also over thinking and gun shy

[Wit]

It could be his processing. Hes a beat slow on everything then rushes the throw and overcompensates with his arm. 

[Coffee Is Great]

Like most young players who struggle, the game has not slowed down for Zach yet. I think on its own his fundamentals are fine but they fall apart quickly because he's so rushed and frazzled on the field. His footwork gets sloppy far too easily.

One of the YouTube All 22 breakdowns on him showed how good he is when he's on time: he completes his drop, plants his foot, and boom! Good things happen. Unfortunately, that situation doesn't play out very often. It's similar to what we saw when Darnold was here. He rushed a lot, his fundamentals (especially his footwork) fell apart early and often and there were many off-the-back-foot throws and inaccurate throws. While Zach's ability to avoid the pass rush and extend plays is pretty remarkable, we don't see that many positive plays actually come out of it. He'll dodge defenders and roll out and ultimately throw it away or make an ill-advised throw. He had the long pass to Davis in Green Bay, but over the last three weeks I can't recall many off-script positive plays that Zach as made. 

One thing that I will make a guess at is that he seems trigger shy. The staff has beaten into his skull that he has to avoid the costly turnovers and while he's certainly had some bad turnover-worthy plays this season, it's now been two full games without an interception. If someone isn't wide open immediately he bails on the pocket. Too often he gets out of there way too soon.

[Hex]

Didn't he have the problem of not throwing the short passes far enough last season? I could be wrong but this seems to be his attempt at trying to fix that but he applied it to everywhere he throws.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

43 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Justin Fields being objectively terrible has allowed me to make peace with the pick, I’m just not expecting significant improvement from what we are seeing now.

Same. Also Fields says some dumb things in his presser that is not great. I think the big question for Zach is will he develop fast enough for the window of this team, which apparently looks to have opened faster than I thought it would.