Edsen JR- Zach & Mimsie for Sutton Place

[bitonti]

21 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

All true, so what do you do?  If you are a smart GM you try and salvage something from a failed prospect.  If you are a dumb GM you toss the guy right now and watch him do something for another team perhaps.  Wilson does a lot of things wrong but as I've said before the thing he does right is not turn it over constantly.

This angle ignores how Zach is an active cancer in the locker room 

He's already vowed to make the next qbs life hell 

He's got too much dead cap to cut or trade but he's still a distraction from winning. The right thing to do is to cut out the cancer 

[football guy]

10 minutes ago, AZSOJ said:

Good post, but I lost faith in ZW because he just doesn't seem to be mentally tough and coupled wit what seems tobe a issue with processing the D pre/post snap (not all the time but most of the time).  What I mean is - and this is jut my observation from a distance - he seem to wilt under pressure (year 1 and 2)  wheather preceived or real. 

Its one thing to be confident in ones ability but when the rough times come and they do, its people with strong mental fortiude that usually prevail.  From what I have observed these last two years... body language, demeanor on the side line and play, I do not believe he has it... hopefully, I am wrong. 

And that's a fair characterization. I think the Jets are most worried about his confidence and mental toughness than anything else. But point being: they want to see if he can recover from it. It's one thing to have an opinion, another for fans on here act like they know everything and make statements as if they're foregone conclusions. Yet if the Jets cast him off and he played well somewhere else they would be trashing the team for getting rid of him in a few years anyway. We don't have to know all the answers right this second... 

[JetPotato]

1 hour ago, football guy said:

I must believe this because some guy named "Biggs" on Jetnation has a crystal ball and says so. Lol 

I'll stick to the people I talk to on this one; you can believe whatever you want to believe. 

 

20 minutes ago, football guy said:

Not true. For a fan using statistics may be more convenient way of evaluating production, but it's not objective for those who do this for a living... context is far more important.

You may not realize this, but sometimes that context is.. "I have to paint an optimistic picture of Zach Wilson so I don't look like a complete fool"

Do your sources know you share little tidbits with us? I'm willing to bet they do.

[Beerfish]

5 minutes ago, bitonti said:

This angle ignores how Zach is an active cancer in the locker room 

He's already vowed to make the next qbs life hell 

He's got too much dead cap to cut or trade but he's still a distraction from winning. The right thing to do is to cut out the cancer 

There has been zero evidence i have seen that he is a cancer in the locker room.  He made one dumbass comment after a tough loss.

The second comment?  LOL his comment was that he is going to do every thing he can to make it tough choice between him and the next QB, that is a good thing.

[The Crusher]

6 minutes ago, bitonti said:

This angle ignores how Zach is an active cancer in the locker room 

He's already vowed to make the next qbs life hell 

He's got too much dead cap to cut or trade but he's still a distraction from winning. The right thing to do is to cut out the cancer 

Haha, I'm not denying any of this but I think he meant by competing with him not putting a snake or something in his locker. LOL

[Bugg]

2 hours ago, Bronx said:

Never forget...

2 things can be wrong at the same time. 

[Bugg]

17 minutes ago, bitonti said:

This angle ignores how Zach is an active cancer in the locker room 

He's already vowed to make the next qbs life hell 

He's got too much dead cap to cut or trade but he's still a distraction from winning. The right thing to do is to cut out the cancer 

Wilson is in roughly the same position as Christian Hackenberg was in his senior year at Penn State. Different side of the ball, different position groups, different coaches, different staff,  even different ethnicities, within the team might have divergent views on any number of things. But the one abiding thing the Jets collectively agree on; Zach Wilson sucks at football and, most think he  is a d!ck. 

[Patriot Killa]

7 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

There has been zero evidence i have seen that he is a cancer in the locker room.  He made one dumbass comment after a tough loss.

The second comment?  LOL his comment was that he is going to do every thing he can to make it tough choice between him and the next QB, that is a good thing.

First comment he made was awful situational awareness on his part, I think he just said “no!” really fast without even listening to the actual question because the questions were getting under his skin week to week, just an awful response to earn the irate of his teammates.

Agree with the purpose behind the second comment though. You want him saying that…but he also shouldn’t have been bad enough to be put in this position where he has to fight for his job.

[Bugg]

10 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

There has been zero evidence i have seen that he is a cancer in the locker room.  He made one dumbass comment after a tough loss.

The second comment?  LOL his comment was that he is going to do every thing he can to make it tough choice between him and the next QB, that is a good thing.

How do you think Wilson utterly  crapping himself in the Lions and Jags home games in December with a playoff berth on the line was viewed by his teammates?  

[Patriot Killa]

1 minute ago, Bugg said:

How do you think Wilson utterly  crapping himself in the Lions and Jags home games in December with a playoff berth on the line was viewed by his teammates?  

If there was ever a time during the season where Wilson was blessed the opportunity to change the narrative in the locker room about him, it was most definitely those two games, playing the way he played, yeah, he probably made it worse on himself. That’s all the evidence you really need to see why guys like Garrett Wilson, Sauce, DJ Reed, Conklin and Becton are begging for Rodgers/Carr on twitter, they know damn well we would of been a playoff team with just a littttlleee bit of decent QB play in those two games you mentioned.

[Warfish]

42 minutes ago, football guy said:

Not true. For a fan using statistics may be more convenient way of evaluating production, but it's not objective for those who do this for a living... context is far more important.

Context is how losers excuse poor production.

Another word for it is "excuse making".

In all seriousness, yes, context matters around the fringes.  But when a player on a team as talented as ours, produces as poorly as Wilson, context does not save him.

Then again, I don't think you are objective in re: Zach in the first place.  You're clearly a Zach fan and believer.  So you buy the excuses.  

In before "well, it really was all MLF's fault", lol.

[Patriot Killa]

1 minute ago, Warfish said:

In before "well, it really was all MLF's fault", lol.

Ugh I hope not. I actually thought MLF did the best he could in some of those really important end of the year games. He isn’t entirely innocent, there where some egregious moments of play calling, seemed in over his head at times, but, it’s really hard to scheme things up for a guy who can’t read the defense in time to execute the play!

MLF was not great, he wasn’t absolute piss poor every offensive drive though.
 

Wilson, he was indeed piss poor every single drive.

[#27TheDominator]

 

1 hour ago, LockeJET said:

So you think they are picking up Zach’s 5th year option after he sits for 2 years?

One year.  They have to pick it up before year 4. 

50 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

All true, so what do you do?  If you are a smart GM you try and salvage something from a failed prospect.  If you are a dumb GM you toss the guy right now and watch him do something for another team perhaps.  Wilson does a lot of things wrong but as I've said before the thing he does right is not turn it over constantly.

I agree with this.  That is why everything @football guy is saying should be taken with a grain of salt.  Do they really believe in Zach Wilson, or are they saying what you say when you are stuck with something and there is a slight chance you can salvage something?  Whether it is a trade, him turning out able to play, whatever, they should be singing his praises until he is gone - unless they think tough love would work.  

45 minutes ago, football guy said:

Not true. For a fan using statistics may be more convenient way of evaluating production, but it's not objective for those who do this for a living... context is far more important.

I watched him play.  What is the context?  He didn't get along with the OC?   

[David Harris]

@football guy I never give up hope on our young QB's, I still think Sanchez could turn the corner, ha.  I'd love nothing more than AR 12 to come in for 2 years and then hand the reins to a matured ZW.  

The talent is certainly there but he's got long odds to come back mentally and succeed in the NY/NJ market.  Eli Manning always stressed how important and valuable it was that he started his rookie season to learn on the fly.  My gut tells me that you're either a sinker or swimmer in those situations, I hope I'm wrong and Zach can change how he handles adversity. Nobody knows.  But we're paying him either way for two seasons so fingers crossed.  It'd be the best possible outcome.

[Stark]

2 hours ago, football guy said:

No I'm not suggesting that's what they are planning. Does that possibility exist? Absolutely. Hypothetical scenario: Jets acquire Aaron Rodgers and he misses 4 games. In relief Zach lights it up, how could they not consider picking up the option - especially if they have a good feeling that he will be the team's starter in 2025? His option would cost roughly $20 million in 2025, which would be how much an average-to-below average starter would be making at that point. If you feared that he would leave and forecast he would be the best option to start in 2025 (presumably after Rodgers retires), I can see why it would be controversial but don't think it would be nearly as outlandish as people think considering how high the cost of a starting QB has and will become by 2025. 

More likely? Jets monitor how he develops, and if all goes well they try to sign him to a 1 or 2 year extension similar to how Jameis Winston and Geno Smith did (and what Sam Darnold is likely to do with Carolina). If he decided to leave then so be it, but chances are it would make sense for him to stay in the same system with the same coaches on a "prove-it" deal. If he went out and played well they can talk big extension following the season the way Geno Smith is doing for himself right now. If not, they go their separate ways. 

hate to ruin the hypothetical BUT... we've all seen Zach, only thing he's lighting up is the sideline tablet.

 

[Biggs]

45 minutes ago, football guy said:

And that's a fair characterization. I think the Jets are most worried about his confidence and mental toughness than anything else. But point being: they want to see if he can recover from it. It's one thing to have an opinion, another for fans on here act like they know everything and make statements as if they're foregone conclusions. Yet if the Jets cast him off and he played well somewhere else they would be trashing the team for getting rid of him in a few years anyway. We don't have to know all the answers right this second... 

If you're mentally not tough you ain't making it as a starting QB in the NFL.  If they really want to rehabilitate him they should send him to a Russian prison in Siberia in a prisoner swap instead of hiring an OC who's very relatable.  Bring him back in 2 years and he's either our starting QB or Batman.  

[docdhc]

10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Context is how losers excuse poor production.

Another word for it is "excuse making".

In all seriousness, yes, context matters around the fringes.  But when a player on a team as talented as ours, produces as poorly as Wilson, context does not save him.

Then again, I don't think you are objective in re: Zach in the first place.  You're clearly a Zach fan and believer.  So you buy the excuses.  

In before "well, it really was all MLF's fault", lol.

I don’t think anyone is saying the Jets think Zach played well. They benched him and are saying he won’t be the starter next year so that’s pretty definitive. They just might not judge him the way you do, based mainly on stats. They have more behind the scenes data based on practices and personal observation which adds the context. Now they may still think he’s a lost cause or still has potential, we really don’t know but he’s already got guaranteed money for 2 more years so there’s no reason to get rid of him for nothing.  They will try to develop him and get him to improve since he has obvious talent and they are stuck with him anyway. 

[Stark]

4 hours ago, football guy said:

Ben Albright is floating this because Sean Payton is a believer in Zach's talent. If they were to make this trade, the Broncos would be acquiring Zach to give Payton a prospect to sit and develop behind a similar style QB in Russell Wilson for 1-2 years, then turn to after potentially moving on from RW. 

Breaking News: Joe Douglas/Robert Saleh don't want to give up on Zach for the same reasons why Sean Payton would want him; they want to sit and develop him behind an established starter - ideally for at least a year - and see if they can unlock him. 

 

4 hours ago, The Crusher said:

There will be a time that a QB like Zach Wilson won't be on this team. 

im filling the SUV up with gas now.. 

its gonna take me 13 hours to get to Florham Park. probably about 2 minutes to carry Zach to the SUV kicking and screaming. Then 23-25 hours to get Mims in Texas. 14 hours to Denver.

 

I can have this thing done by the weekend. Will shake Sean Payton's hand and tell him how dumb he is. 

 

perfect. 

 

@JiFields you want to ride with... we can hit some golf courses on the way back laughing at the broncos.

[Warfish]

8 minutes ago, docdhc said:

They just might not judge him the way you do, based mainly on stats.

To be clear, I'm not only judging him on stats.

I'm also judging him on my own "eye test", where he consistency failed to perform the basic functions of an NFL QB, i.e. seeing or hitting open receivers, scrambling for positive yards, leading scoring drives, or otherwise looking competent.

I'll be honest, when folks discuss Zach's talent in a positive light, I'm honestly not sure what it is they think they see.  A strong arm.  I see that.  Beyond that, I don't see a guy in any way ready to play at this level.  

8 minutes ago, docdhc said:

Now they may still think he’s a lost cause or still has potential, we really don’t know but he’s already got guaranteed money for 2 more years so there’s no reason to get rid of him for nothing.  They will try to develop him and get him to improve since he has obvious talent and they are stuck with him anyway. 

This is true.  Add in JD's investment in Zach and desire to be proven right about him in the end, and you're 100% right, he's not going anywhere.

The real question is not that, it's who we bring in.

I remain of the belief that we'll act like we're looking for a big name, but in reality will get a tertiary guy (Mayfield, Minshew, Trubisky, etc.) and will have a "competition" between them and Zach in 2023.  

[Biggs]

17 minutes ago, docdhc said:

I don’t think anyone is saying the Jets think Zach played well. They benched him and are saying he won’t be the starter next year so that’s pretty definitive. They just might not judge him the way you do, based mainly on stats. They have more behind the scenes data based on practices and personal observation which adds the context. Now they may still think he’s a lost cause or still has potential, we really don’t know but he’s already got guaranteed money for 2 more years so there’s no reason to get rid of him for nothing.  They will try to develop him and get him to improve since he has obvious talent and they are stuck with him anyway. 

Actually they don't.  They have a CEO type of HC from the D side who completely delegated the O to the OC and they new Offensive coaches haven't seen him behind the scenes.  They have seen him on game tape.  

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, Biggs said:

Actually they don't.  They have a CEO type of HC from the D side who completely delegated the O to the OC and they new Offensive coaches haven't seen him behind the scenes.  They have seen him on game tape.  

One of the most glaring take aways is that the head coach is an attitude get guys ready to play guy and that kid seemed as lost, and mentally unprepared as anybody I have ever seen. 

[JiFtheOracle]

2 hours ago, football guy said:

I must believe this because some guy named "Biggs" on Jetnation has a crystal ball and says so. Lol 

I'll stick to the people I talk to on this one; you can believe whatever you want to believe. 

[football guy]

10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Context is how losers excuse poor production.

Another word for it is "excuse making".

In all seriousness, yes, context matters around the fringes.  But when a player on a team as talented as ours, produces as poorly as Wilson, context does not save him.

Then again, I don't think you are objective in re: Zach in the first place.  You're clearly a Zach fan and believer.  So you buy the excuses.  

In before "well, it really was all MLF's fault", lol.

I believe in Zach's talent yes. I don't think he's nearly as bad as he has looked and I agree that circumstances around him and the team have contributed to piss-poor QB play for the better part of the last 23 years. I've seen plenty of coordinators find ways to mask more glaring weaknesses of far less talented quarterbacks for the sake of production. I've seen plenty of experienced QB coaches have less talented players be prepared to play. I question whether he is able to rebuild his confidence and whether he has the mental fortitude to perform in spite of the circumstances surrounding him, which will ultimately dictate whether he can be a "franchise QB" or not.

I think Mike LaFleur is a really smart coach who could be a very good coordinator and play-caller, but he struggles with communication, is conflict avoidant, stubborn as it pertains to marrying players to his scheme, and does not have a proven track record of player development. I personally was against firing him from day 1, and I never put all the blame on him. I think he was put in an unfair position where Saleh essentially hired him to run the entire offense/passing game, yet surrounded him with a bunch of first-time NFL position coaches. Saleh put too much weight into the Greg Knapp basket, yet determined replacing him was unnecessary heading into year 2... that's not Mike LaFleur's fault. MLF has never been a QB coach nor does he have experience at the position; his background has always been scheme and game plan (even when he was a WR coach). I've long believed the best strategy was to hire someone like Hackett in a senior-level role to be a yin to MLF's yang, however the strain put on MLF and the relationships between him and players became so toxic that it just made sense to go their separate ways. Not everything has to be black and white... 

 

An aside: do you know who this player is?

73

118

61.9

738

6.3

5

4.2

4

3.4

7

45

79.7

[Pac]

Many of you are being silly.  You don't cut the 2nd overall pick after 2 years if there's even a slim chance he can turn it around. 

You don't need an inside source to tell you this..  It's common sense. 

There is simply no better option than Rodgers for 2 years which gives Zip a chance to figure it out.  Anything else will be a let down. 

I can't believe you're making me defend Zippy f'ing Wilson. 

[Warfish]

17 minutes ago, football guy said:

I believe in Zach's talent yes. I don't think he's nearly as bad as he has looked

Obviously.

17 minutes ago, football guy said:

I've seen plenty of coordinators find ways to mask more glaring weaknesses of far less talented quarterbacks for the sake of production.

For example?

17 minutes ago, football guy said:

I question whether he is able to rebuild his confidence and whether he has the mental fortitude to perform in spite of the circumstances surrounding him, which will ultimately dictate whether he can be a "franchise QB" or not.

It's not just about his confidence.

17 minutes ago, football guy said:

I think Mike LaFleur is a really smart coach who could be a very good coordinator and play-caller, but he struggles with communication, is conflict avoidant, stubborn as it pertains to marrying players to his scheme, and does not have a proven track record of player development.

It'll be interesting to see what he does in his new home.

17 minutes ago, football guy said:

Not everything has to be black and white...

No, but sometimes it's pretty close.

17 minutes ago, football guy said:

An aside: do you know who this player is?

73

118

61.9

738

6.3

5

4.2

4

3.4

7

45

79.7

Even if I knew what statistics each number stood for, it would likely be hard to guess without era or year reference.  73 for 118, 738 yards for 5:4 ratio?  

I'll guess that this is some variation on the typical "But Peyton Manning/Josh Allen..."argument, some star who had a bad early year.  That tends to be all Zach fans have to fall back on, "but this other guy did it" cherry picked arguments that ignore the materially more frequent times a QB with a bad start simply stayed bad.

EDIT:  In looking at all NFL passers going back year by year from 2022, I found several about as bad as the stat line you linked, closest so far is Tim Rattay, San Fran in 2003, 73 for 118, 61.9%, 856 yards, but 7 and 2 ratio.  So not him.  So still looking....

EDIT2:  Stopped looking at 1990.  Didn't find anyone with that stat line exactly.  If it's older than that, you'll just have to tell me I guess.

[Ron Rico]

1 hour ago, JetPotato said:

Do your sources know you share little tidbits with us? I'm willing to bet they do.

Psy Ops. They intend to scrub last years performance from our collective memory, because they know he's going to be the number 1 QB next season.

[Matt39]

2 hours ago, football guy said:

Smh... so much ignorance on here. Zach has spent more time in NJ and CA than he has in Utah since the season ended. 

He controls his own destiny. We’ll see if he puts the work on or not. 

[Matt39]

 

 

12 minutes ago, Pac said:

Many of you are being silly.  You don't cut the 2nd overall pick after 2 years if there's even a slim chance he can turn it around. 

You don't need an inside source to tell you this..  It's common sense. 

There is simply no better option than Rodgers for 2 years which gives Zip a chance to figure it out.  Anything else will be a let down. 

I can't believe you're making me defend Zippy f'ing Wilson. 

I don’t know how he figures out not being skittish from the pass rush.  That seems innate and he doesn’t have it. Sitting won’t help with that either. 

[football guy]

11 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Obviously.

For example? I just watched Joshua Dobbs and David Blough play just as efficient, if not more, than our QBs did as street FAs. Is that the player or the coaching?

It's not just about his confidence. That's what the Jets are currently most worried about. They think everything else is easily correctable. 

It'll be interesting to see what he does in his new home. He'll probably do well because he isn't being tasked with the heavy lifting and gets a sideline view of how the Shanahan scheme can be run when a coach is willing to mold the scheme around the talent available. Kyle is very scheme > player, whereas McVay has displayed more of a willingness to mold his scheme to the player's he has available (see: QB). He's also now an OC on a staff that has a HC with an offensive background, an experienced QB coach, experienced WR coach, a TE coach who contributes to gameplan and scheme, and a former HC/OC in Jay Gruden as an offensive consultant. 

No, but sometimes it's pretty close.

Even if I knew what statistics each number stood for, it would likely be hard to guess without era or year reference.  73 for 118, 738 yards for 5:4 ratio?  

I'll guess that this is some variation on the typical "But Peyton Manning/Josh Allen..."argument, some star who had a bad early year.  That tends to be all Zach fans have to fall back on, "but this other guy did it" cherry picked arguments that ignore the materially more frequent times a QB with a bad start simply stayed bad.  The answer is Patrick Mahomes. Those are his stats in his 3 super bowl appearances, the second one being particularly bad against the Bucs. His offensive line played awful and it resulted in Mahomes running around for dear life just chucking horrible pass after horrible pass. There were distractions all week with Andy Reid dealing with all the questions about his son after the accident right before the Super Bowl, which many have admitted anonymously significantly hampered their preparation for the game. Context matters

 

 

 

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, football guy said:

The answer is Patrick Mahomes. Those are his stats in his 3 super bowl appearances, the second one being particularly bad against the Bucs. His offensive line played awful and it resulted in Mahomes running around for dear life just chucking horrible pass after horrible pass. Context matters

/facepalm

Apples to Cadillacs.  We're talking full year, regular season here, not the much smaller datapool of playoffs, much less the much smaller pool of "Super Bowls".

If we want to limit it to playoffs, Mark Sanchez suddenly looks like a HOF'er. 

FFS get serious.

If we're making silly comparisons, I'll make my favorite one (it's dear to my heart because of who the other QB is):

23 starts, 9-14 record as starter, 55.6% Comp rate, 33:28 ratio, 6.4 YPA, 11.6 YPC, 74.9 QB Rating
22 starts, 8-14 record as starter, 55.2% Comp rate, 15:18 ratio, 6.4 YPA, 11.5 YPC, 70.9 QB Rating.

It's an easy one. 

Zach Wilson today is akin what Patrick Ramsey was when the Jets signed him in 2006.  A two year mostly full-time starter 1st rounder (albeit Ramsey was very late 1st) on talented enough teams, who was sat (mostly) for year three, was cut after year 4, and was out of the league shortly thereafter.

I thought Ramsey could turn it around and was wrong.  Now you all think Zach will turn it around.  Both were primarily known for having strong arms.

That is who Zach is today.  Who he will be tomorrow is up to him and his supposed "elite talent". 

Only time will tell.

[football guy]

7 minutes ago, Warfish said:

/facepalm

Apples to Cadillacs.  We're talking full year, regular season here, not the much smaller datapool of playoffs.

If we want to limit it to playoffs, Mark Sanchez suddenly looks like a HOF'er. 

FFS get serious.

Gone over plenty of different season long examples how context matters and every single time the answer is the same lol... doesn't fit within a narrative so it must be dismissed out of hand as an "anomaly" or "irrelevant" 

Point being, context matters much more than stats do. 

[Patriot Killa]

6 minutes ago, football guy said:

Gone over plenty of different season long examples how context matters and every single time the answer is the same lol... doesn't fit within a narrative so it must be dismissed out of hand as an "anomaly" or "irrelevant" 

Point being, context matters much more than stats do. 

As tremendous as this back and forth has been, I’ll be honest, as much as context matters, it also matters when comparing Wilson’s play on a more talented team to less talented teams that equally talented QB’s have been under center for. Darnold is the prime example. If a guy cannot play in this league, it’s fairly easy to tell no matter what context is considered in all of this.

[JiFtheOracle]

Player gets benched mid season, statistically on pace w/ Jamarcus Russell, owner/GM/HC say team is looking for a veteran QB and Zach needs to go read a book on a beach.

Is that, context? 

[Patriot Killa]

1 minute ago, JiFields said:

Player gets benched mid season, statistically on pace w/ Jamarcus Russell, owner/GM/HC say team is looking for a veteran QB and Zach needs to go read a book on a beach.

Is that, context? 

Yeah, there’s really no defending how bad he was trending in those last few games that really mattered. That’s the only context we need to be looking at here, not some made up scenario where QB X looked like this during the playoffs, therefore QB Z struggling with literally any and everything that has to do with being an NFL QB is attributed to why QB X was struggling in the SB.

just a lot of criss crossing and zig zagging for no good reason if you ask me.

[AZSOJ]

8 minutes ago, Patriot Killa said:

As tremendous as this back and forth has been, I’ll be honest, as much as context matters, it also matters when comparing Wilson’s play on a more talented team to less talented teams that equally talented QB’s have been under center for. Darnold is the prime example. If a guy cannot play in this league, it’s fairly easy to tell no matter what context is considered in all of this.

Last yearSam played well after he came back from injury and had them in the PO hunt. Indeed, the new HC is considering keeping him... so I wouldn't use him as an example.