Prove me wrong

[Jetsfan80]

15 hours ago, joenamathwouldn'tcry said:

Thanks for the thread.  It was nice to watch someone turn the tables on the "Chicken Little Brigade" for a change.  They constantly bash the glass half  full posters with innuendo and sniping, and it was nice to see someone trolling them for a change.  Lost their sh#t.  Priceless.  Turned the tables.  Masterful job ECURB, you are my hero......

Yeah they sure showed us.

People posting actual numbers showing Macc sucks get ignored, while ECURB responds to every post with "You're in your feelings milennial".  Because that sure proves you're not a millenial:  Ignoring facts that show you're wrong and acting like a child. 

[Jetsfan80]

15 hours ago, NoBowles said:

OR, we are saying there are many co-dependent variables that go into wins and losses. I think Maccagnan is a buffoon, should have been gone 2 years ago, but I also think the coaching by Bowles and Co. was so atrocious that it was actually hard to go by wins and losses as a barometer. 

Except Maccagnan leads the NFL in % of players drafted who are no longer in the league.  Meaning the blame for those players not working out fall exclusively on Macc's shoulders.

Bowles sucked at his job, but Macc sucks worse.  Yet somehow he was given a 5th draft. 

[JetFaninMI]

17 minutes ago, genot said:

Who'd you think i was talking about. You couldn't figure that out. I wasn't talking about Trump planning the blocking schemes. I mean who would be planning those schemes. Didn't think i'd have to spell it out for you. I'm not into name calling. The fact you couldn't figure out who i was talking about, pretty much tells all.

LOL. Once again you full of sh*t. You mention DEFENSIVE PLAYERS and think people are going to think you ment something along the lines of the bullsh*t you tried to pass off? Quit the bullsh*t dude. You're now shoveling more bullsh*t to cover up your other bullsh*t. NEXT.

[Jetsfan80]

13 hours ago, Cyberjet said:

Good god this is almost unbearable. Bottom line - if you don’t draft a generational QB your team most likely will not win. Last year Mac had the balls to trade away 3 2nd rounders for a chance at an elite QB. For that I applaud him and that’s why I like him.

if he didn’t do that the Jets would be nowhere. He knew what QBs were coming out this draft and he made the right move last year. This is a better much better team.  

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Cyberjet said:

Tom Brady made that whole team better. His offense allowed the defense to play a one dimensional game most times, their offensive line was good because nobody gets the ball out faster than him (plus they get away with holding ?). No Qb has enjoyed the continuity he has experienced.

Hopefully Sam  Darnold is our Tom Brady. If he is Mac is a genius 

 

Ah, the old "None of our draft picks mattered until we took Darnold" argument.  Let's see how that works around the league, shall we?

• The Rams had drafted Todd Gurley and Aaron Donald BEFORE they took Jared Goff. 
• The Eagles had drafted Lane Johnson and Fletcher Cox BEFORE they took Carson Wentz.  And their roster was so good, they won a SB with the backup QB.
• The Chiefs had drafted Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce, Dee Ford, Mitch Morse and Marcus Peters BEFORE taking Patrick Mahomes.

And that's just teams who took QB's recently.  What's Macc's excuse for failing to build a strong roster PRIOR to Darnold's arrival? 

[JoJoTownsell1]

4 minutes ago, JetFaninMI said:

LOL. Once again you full of sh*t. You mention DEFENSIVE PLAYERS and think people are going to think you ment something along the lines of the bullsh*t you tried to pass off? Quit the bullsh*t dude. You're now shoveling more bullsh*t to cover up your other bullsh*t. NEXT.

For a fan of team with Darnold/Leveon Bell/Anderson/Crowder/Enunwa/Herndon/Quinnen/Leo/Jamal/Mosley/Williamson, you are WAY too angry. 

[CTM]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

• The Rams had drafted Todd Gurley and Aaron Donald BEFORE they took Jared Goff. 
• The Eagles had drafted Lane Johnson and Fletcher Cox BEFORE they took Carson Wentz.  And their roster was so good, they won a SB with the backup QB.
• The Chiefs had drafted Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce, Dee Ford, Mitch Morse and Marcus Peters BEFORE taking Patrick Mahomes.

How many playoff games did these guy play prior to the QB?

If Darnold plays at an elite level this year the roster is going to look a hell of a lot better on both sides of the ball. 

It's basically impossible to win consistently in this league without a franchise QB.

[genot]

14 minutes ago, JetFaninMI said:

LOL. Once again you full of sh*t. You mention DEFENSIVE PLAYERS and think people are going to think you ment something along the lines of the bullsh*t you tried to pass off? Quit the bullsh*t dude. You're now shoveling more bullsh*t to cover up your other bullsh*t. NEXT.

Who would be developing blocking schemes for a defensive front. Please. Go wrap yourself in your Saved by the Bell blanket, and leave me alone.

[shuler82]

Hey guys! Guys! I think our GM might not be that good.

[BROOKLYN JET]

Just now, shuler82 said:

Hey guys! Guys! I think our GM might not be that good.

Stuff your feelings in a sack mister!

[Jetsfan80]

24 minutes ago, CTM said:

How many playoff games did these guy play prior to the QB?

If Darnold plays at an elite level this year the roster is going to look a hell of a lot better on both sides of the ball. 

It's basically impossible to win consistently in this league without a franchise QB. 

It's irrelevant to my point to ask for the W-L records prior to the arrival of the QB.  We're all in agreement that the QB is by far the most important piece, and without one, you're not making the playoffs let alone contending for a Super Bowl. 

My point is you need to be building your roster before and after the QB arrives.  There is zero excuse for drafting terrible players in the drafts leading up to and after the QB arrives.  Macc fans are operating like we couldn't have done better than the likes of Devin Smith, Chad Hansen, and ArDarius Stewart as WR's acquired via the draft.  And that's just the terrible drafting by Macc at the WR position alone. 

[Jetsfan80]

34 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

For a fan of team with Darnold/Leveon Bell/Anderson/Crowder/Enunwa/Herndon/Quinnen/Leo/Jamal/Mosley/Williamson, you are WAY too angry. 

Bell and Crowder are unlikely to be on the team after 2020 based on how their contracts work.  Robbie Anderson will likely be gone after 2019.  We're not paying him AND Enunwa big bucks.  That would make little sense.  Leonard Williams will be gone after 2019 as well.

So not even midway through Darnold's rookie contract, you're talking about a core of Enunwa, Herndon, Quinnen, Jamal, Mosley and Williamson.  A nice WR, very good young TE, and four solid defensive players who play non-premium positions. 

Coming off 24-40 over the last 4 years, which included four top 10 draft picks, that's really not good enough.  Especially when you consider we're still going to need to draft a franchise LT soon.  Having kicked that can all the way to next year is dangerous given that we hope to have a much later draft pick in 2020. 

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yeah they sure showed us.

People posting actual numbers showing Macc sucks get ignored, while ECURB responds to every post with "You're in your feelings milennial".  Because that sure proves you're not a millenial:  Ignoring facts that show you're wrong and acting like a child. 

Some posted arguments and stats to support them.  I wasn't referring to them, or you.  The ones I was referring to know who they are.  It's not just about the incessant whining and negativity, as much as it is the propensity to attack anyone who posts anything positive  about this team or Staff.  You know that 80.

  You have the right to voice your opinion in any way you feel fit. So does everyone else.   The "mob" doesn't like it, and they freak out, when they are taken to task.  They were exposed throughout the thread.  That was the purpose of @ECURB's  "trolling" and the thread in general.

  He posted the Patriocheats specifically to get a rise out of the "Brigade".  He could have chosen any team.  I'm sure he knew that the posted stats weren't a strong argument.  That wasn't the point.  The response was.  That was what made it brilliant.

He didn't act like a child.  He simply took the position of the "Contrarian".  TOm Shane and Villian do it all the time.  Many others do.  They are celebrated  as clever, and tongue in cheek.  This was no different.  Only the response was.  What's Good for the Goose...….

[Long Island Leprechaun]

4 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It's irrelevant to my point to ask for the W-L records prior to the arrival of the QB.  We're all in agreement that the QB is by far the most important piece, and without one, you're not making the playoffs let alone contending for a Super Bowl. 

My point is you need to be building your roster before and after the QB arrives.  There is zero excuse for drafting terrible players in the drafts leading up to and after the QB arrives.  Macc fans are operating like we couldn't have done better than the likes of Devin Smith, Chad Hansen, and ArDarius Stewart as WR's acquired via the draft.  And that's just the terrible drafting by Macc at the WR position alone. 

From a team perspective, I'm in agreement with you. Mac's drafts have been decidedly underwhelming. Whether he is an outlier as a GM in his hit/miss ratio is another question entirely. There are a handful of GM's who are really savvy in their draft picks and beat the percentages. The vast majority of GM's are a little better than blind squirrels trying to find a nut. A few are absolutely terrible. I'm betting Mac is in the middle group. Which makes him mediocre. Still not a compliment, and he is on limb for good reason. His drafting of WR's has been awful. Neglect of OL has been blatant. But the OP was, I think, trying to say that it doesn't appear Mac is the worst GM based on the criteria presented. It was a fair argument, but the torches and pitchforks were out before the ink was dry.

[MichaelScott]

On 4/28/2019 at 2:42 PM, Jets723 said:

I still dont get what the problem was drafting Williams?  Him or Allen would of been great picks. There were no offensive players worth passing them up for. Pretty much every analyst has said the same thing

Is it really that hard to see the argument? We've gone the "use a top pick on the next big DT" - several time, although I'll stick with Leo. Point is, we just did this and the team was not only not any better because of it, what we HAVEN'T tried to address (ironically, what the team needs the MOST) is a true pass rusher. 

Want to take a guess what position the "Quinnen haters" are pissed that Mac didn't draft? 

Is the problem a little bit clearer? In all seriousness - not saying that sarcastically. Whether you agree or not, the problem people have with the Q pick is fairly simple. 

[Jetsfan80]

From a team perspective, I'm in agreement with you. Mac's drafts have been decidedly underwhelming. Whether he is an outlier as a GM in his hit/miss ratio is another question entirely. There are a handful of GM's who are really savvy in their draft picks and beat the percentages. The vast majority of GM's are a little better than blind squirrels trying to find a nut. A few are absolutely terrible. I'm betting Mac is in the middle group. Which makes him mediocre. Still not a compliment, and he is on limb for good reason. His drafting of WR's has been awful. Neglect of OL has been blatant. But the OP was, I think, trying to say that it doesn't appear Mac is the worst GM based on the criteria presented. It was a fair argument, but the torches and pitchforks were out before the ink was dry.

 

Since 2015, no team has drafted a higher % of players than the Jets who are no longer on the roster. So he’s 32nd in that category.

 

The Jets are also # 22 in players drafted who are still on the team.

 

That’s not mediocre, that’s awful. Probably all or close to all 31 other teams would have fired him by now, and several teams have indeed fired GMs who did BETTER than Macc in that span.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Since 2015, no team has drafted a higher % of players than the Jets who are no longer on the roster. So he’s 32nd in that category.

 

The Jets are also # 22 in players drafted who are still on the team.

 

That’s not mediocre, that’s awful. Probably all or close to all 31 other teams would have fired him by now, and several teams have indeed fired GMs who did BETTER than Macc in that span.

That first stat is not correct, at least based on what I just looked at. I checked two teams -- Packers and Dolphins. Both the Packers and Patriots (based on OP's data) have fewer players on their roster for that period. I'm sure there are more. Not sure how that stat was determined.

[SR24]

On 4/28/2019 at 2:08 PM, JetFaninMI said:

A project to say the least. How many has he drafted since he got the job? How many has he drafted since he drafted SAM? How many has he drafted with a 1st or 2nd round pick? You know since he drafted the FRANCHISE QB? HOW MANY?

Idk who posted on the forum the other day but in the last 3 drafts (not counting 2019) Mac selected as many Punters as he did Olineman. Unacceptable 

[sirlancemehlot]

On 4/28/2019 at 1:52 PM, ECURB said:

Not according to the stats... They are hitting fewer times than the JETS are with more swings.

Because they are a much better team with more talent.  It's easier to make the Jets, (Raiders, 49ers) roster than it is the Pats, Steelers, Rams rosters.  So of course our draft percentage is higher.  Who drafts the most impactful players?  That's the measure of good drafting.

[joenamathwouldn'tcry]

35 minutes ago, SR24 said:

Idk who posted on the forum the other day but in the last 3 drafts (not counting 2019) Mac selected as many Punters as he did Olineman. Unacceptable 

Don't have a stroke.  That post does not mention the numbers as a tool to skew the impression it leaves.  In those three drafts, he selected two offensive linemen, Shell and Jarvis Harrison.  That's two.  He also drafted one punter, Lachlan Edwards. 

Granted two Offensive Linemen drafted over the course of three drafts is paltry, but it wasn't like he drafted six punters, as the post you mentioned would infer, minus the numbers. 

During that time he also signed free agent linemen such as Jonathan Harrison, Kelvin Beachum, Spencer Long and others.  Carpenter was already in place, as was Winters.  The impression that the offensive line was totally ignored is false.

If the Jets Offensive Line had played better last season, it wouldn't have been as much of an issue.  Remember, the Coaching, play calling, schemes, and injury also had a hand in it.  We now have a better coaching staff, and a well regarded offensive line coach.  We also drafted a monster blocking tight end, a huge offensive guard/tackle, and acquired a pro bowl left guard.  Things should be much better.

[Jetsfan80]

That first stat is not correct, at least based on what I just looked at. I checked two teams -- Packers and Dolphins. Both the Packers and Patriots (based on OP's data) have fewer players on their roster for that period. I'm sure there are more. Not sure how that stat was determined.

I’m talking about players who are out of the league entirely. We’re # 32 in that category.

We’re # 22 in players no longer on our roster. So certainly the Dolphins and Packers could very well be below us in that category.

[Smashmouth]

On 4/28/2019 at 12:49 PM, ECURB said:

Not using your feelings that are running wild on this message board...but rather using FACTS... Prove me wrong.

I only had time to pick the "best" team to compare us against but feel free to look up some others.

 

2015-2018 Drafts

JETS - 28 picks 

Currently still have 18 on the team (64%)

9 are starters (32%)

 

Patriots - 33 picks

Currently still have 14 on the team (42%)

4 are starters (12%)

 

So you say "Mac sucks at drafting" but what are you basing it on? Almost 3/4 of his picks are still kicking and it looks like this year will be no different.

If you did this with every team and see where the Jets fall I think you would get a better idea where the Jets stand ...I agree with Max and Shane comparing the Jets to the Pats who consistently win makes it much harder for a draft pick to start or even make the roster.

[Smashmouth]

9 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Bell and Crowder are unlikely to be on the team after 2020 based on how their contracts work.  Robbie Anderson will likely be gone after 2019.  We're not paying him AND Enunwa big bucks.  That would make little sense.  Leonard Williams will be gone after 2019 as well.

So not even midway through Darnold's rookie contract, you're talking about a core of Enunwa, Herndon, Quinnen, Jamal, Mosley and Williamson.  A nice WR, very good young TE, and four solid defensive players who play non-premium positions. 

Coming off 24-40 over the last 4 years, which included four top 10 draft picks, that's really not good enough.  Especially when you consider we're still going to need to draft a franchise LT soon.  Having kicked that can all the way to next year is dangerous given that we hope to have a much later draft pick in 2020. 

After saying all this what will you say if the Jets march out there in 2019 and win 11 games ? Will you give Macc credit for adding some good young talent other than just via the draft ? Will you then give him credit for winning 11 games with the roster he built just like you blame him for losing with a complete Idiot as a HC ?

[Jetsfan80]

After saying all this what will you say if the Jets march out there in 2019 and win 11 games ? Will you give Macc credit for adding some good young talent other than just via the draft ? Will you then give him credit for winning 11 games with the roster he built just like you blame him for losing with a complete Idiot as a HC ?

 You’re arguing a hypothetical that hasn’t happened yet to try to prove a point. Those are always fun.

 

But I’ll humor you. Yes, I would give Macc credit if we win 11 games. In no way do I think we will, but in that unlikely event, yes. Especially since that would mean Darnold is completely legit.

 

However, my point still stands that some of the key pieces added to surround Darnold (Bell, Crowder, Osemele) will all be gone by 2020 (Osemele may stick around thru 2021). The Jets having a great season, which would probably lead to Macc getting extended (vomit) would come with an absolute requirement that we draft quality offensive talent, or else the bottom could drop out quickly.

 

But again, I don’t think there’s any chance this team wins 11 games.

 

 

[Smashmouth]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

You’re arguing a hypothetical that hasn’t happened yet to try to prove a point. Those are always fun.

 

But I’ll humor you. Yes, I would give Macc credit if we win 11 games. In no way do I think we will, but in that unlikely event, yes. Especially since that would mean Darnold is completely legit.

 

However, keep in mind that some of the key pieces added to surround Darnold (Bell, Crowder, Osemele) will all be gone by 2020 (Osemele may stick around thru 2021). The Jets having a great season, which would probably lead to Macc getting extended (vomit) would come with an absolute requirement that we draft quality offensive talent, or else the bottom could drop out quickly.

 

But again, I don’t think there’s any chance this team wins 11 games.

 

80 I'm not arguing I know you're stance on Macc and I'm fine with that I just asked a simple question  

And yes I am hinging all of that on Darnold. I see no reason why we can't do what the Rams and other teams have done. We added some very nice players this year via FA and the Draft one of them is arguably one of the best skill players in the game so maybe we should have some hope this team can get a few breaks start to win some games and hope our new coach is nothing like the buffoon he replaced

[Jetsfan80]

80 I'm not arguing I know you're stance on Macc and I'm fine with that I just asked a simple question  
And yes I am hinging all of that on Darnold. I see no reason why we can't do what the Rams and other teams have done. We added some very nice players this year via FA and the Draft one of them is arguably one of the best skill players in the game so maybe we should have some hope this team can get a few breaks start to win some games and hope our new coach is nothing like the buffoon he replaced

There’s a lot keeping us from being the Rams. That team was stocked with talent before they brought in Goff. Gurley and a solid O-Line. Donald, Brockers, Quinn, Ogletree, etc on defense.

Only after drafting an established core did they go on a spending spree for Suh, Cooks, etc. They also added Kupp in the draft.

I like Darnold better than Goff. That’s probably the only spot on the field where I think we might be better long-term.

[Cyberjet]

11 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

Ah, the old "None of our draft picks mattered until we took Darnold" argument.  Let's see how that works around the league, shall we?

• The Rams had drafted Todd Gurley and Aaron Donald BEFORE they took Jared Goff. 
• The Eagles had drafted Lane Johnson and Fletcher Cox BEFORE they took Carson Wentz.  And their roster was so good, they won a SB with the backup QB.
• The Chiefs had drafted Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce, Dee Ford, Mitch Morse and Marcus Peters BEFORE taking Patrick Mahomes.

And that's just teams who took QB's recently.  What's Macc's excuse for failing to build a strong roster PRIOR to Darnold's arrival? 

Not at all. A generation QB makes everyone better. All of a sudden players look talented. The Rams were not very good until Goff came along ( plus a change in coaching and philosophy). If Darnold clicks so do the rest of the team

[Jetsfan80]

Not at all. A generation QB makes everyone better. All of a sudden players look talented. The Rams were not very good until Goff came along ( plus a change in coaching and philosophy). If Darnold clicks so do the rest of the team

They drafted Gurley and Donald before Goff arrived. So your statement is simply not true.

Goff was the big missing piece, but that’s quite different from what Macc has been doing. We didn’t have any magic hidden gems on this team. GW will help Trumaine Johnson and Leonard Williams play better but that doesn’t mean Macc’s poor roster building won’t continue to hurt us even with a franchise QB around.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

8 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

I’m talking about players who are out of the league entirely. We’re # 32 in that category.

We’re # 22 in players no longer on our roster. So certainly the Dolphins and Packers could very well be below us in that category.

 

I didn't see the no longer on roster stat. So thanks for that. I'd still be very curious to see who is ranked where on that list and how it correlates to their won-loss record and the quality of their QB. As others have said, there are a bunch of variables in this equation. FA is also significant, and the Pats have been big players in that market as well as the draft to shore up their franchise. Also, the Pats always seem to be leveraging comp picks and stockpiling draft picks (the rich get richer phenomenon). On another point, the contrast between the "still on roster" and "still in the league" stats is intriguing and not at all clear. How should we interpret that?

[ZachEY]

19 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

But why are you so caught up in your feelings milennial???

ECURB OWNZ LIBTARD MILLENNIALS WITH LOGIC AND FACTS!!!

cc: @T0mShane

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

I didn't see the no longer on roster stat. So thanks for that. I'd still be very curious to see who is ranked where on that list and how it correlates to their won-loss record and the quality of their QB. As others have said, there are a bunch of variables in this equation. FA is also significant, and the Pats have been big players in that market as well as the draft to shore up their franchise. Also, the Pats always seem to be leveraging comp picks and stockpiling draft picks (the rich get richer phenomenon). On another point, the contrast between the "still on roster" and "still in the league" stats is intriguing and not at all clear. How should we interpret that? 

The "no longer in the NFL" stat means we can't blame Todd Bowles for all our problems like many here wanted to do.  Bowles didn't fail to "coach up" Macc's draft picks.  The picks just simply sucked.

The "on other rosters" stat isn't all that helpful in our case.  The only player who Macc has drafted who is currently on another team is CB Juston Burris (CLE).  The Browns just drafted Greedy Williams and currently have Burris buried deep on their depth chart (CB # 9 or 10 per ourlads), so he'll likely join the long list of Macc draft picks who are no longer in the league quite soon. 

As for comparison with the rest of the league, I showed in another thread that our 24-40 record since 2015 ranks us 29th in the league in that span.  The only teams to not make the playoffs since 2015 are us, the 49ers, Bucs and Browns.   The Jaguars have a worse record than us (23-41) but went to an AFC Title game.  So its very clear that poor drafting = poor results, however you want to splice it. 

I'm not going to do further analysis on all of that because its a waste of time.  If people can't decide for themselves that Macc's drafting has been terrible given the overwhelming amount of evidence against him, I don't know what to tell them. My guess is that's the group of people who are truly "in their feelings". 

[JetFaninMI]

On 4/29/2019 at 12:03 PM, JoJoTownsell1 said:

For a fan of team with Darnold/Leveon Bell/Anderson/Crowder/Enunwa/Herndon/Quinnen/Leo/Jamal/Mosley/Williamson, you are WAY too angry. 

Not really JJ. I'm pissed at the fact that someone blatantly lied and said they were misquoted when the proof is right there on the page.

[JetFaninMI]

On 4/29/2019 at 12:15 PM, genot said:

Who would be developing blocking schemes for a defensive front. Please. Go wrap yourself in your Saved by the Bell blanket, and leave me alone.

LOL. Called out and exposed. You obviously wrote what you did. You made a mistake and now its damage control time. NEXT.

[rangerous]

On 4/28/2019 at 2:01 PM, Matt39 said:

Who on the Jets that Maccagnan drafted is starting in New England? 

Dont give me Adams because he wouldn’t over Mccourty or Chung 

imo you are wrong there.  adams is a much better player than both.  chung was actually off the patsies for a time.  he's not terrible but also not very good.  and bellichicken is good at putting players in the right position so he doesn't need to rely on superior player talent.

[slimjasi]

I think the basic premise of the thread is correct, but the Patriots can afford to miss on plenty more than we can because they are so unbelievably strong at the two most important positions (sans owner) in an organization. 

[slimjasi]

On 4/28/2019 at 12:51 PM, Maxman said:

Well it is easier to find a starter on a bad team than it is to draft starters on a Super Bowl level team.

But I agree with the premise, the draft is way more of a crap shoot than people admit.

Bingo