Wide Line Splits

[#27TheDominator]

48 minutes ago, Maxman said:

I was thinking the same thing. Jets start 3 and 0, wide split mania is running wild. We feel unbeatable. Belichick in week four and its all over lol.

With Andy ******* Dalton at QB!

[Wonderboy]

Fire Gase Hire Leach

[Wonderboy]

3 hours ago, Greenseed4 said:

It’s not inconceivable that our 2020 OL will consist of 4 or 5 new starters.  This is ideal timing for a scheme change. 

From hogs to piglets

[jetstream23]

5 hours ago, KRL said:

With the rumors of Gase going to "wide line splits" I did some research on the
benefits of it.  Below are links to two articles focusing on Mike Leach and what
he did at Texas Tech.  The links give you the full breakdown, I included a couple
of interesting points for those who don't want to read everything:
  

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2008/10/linemen-splits.html

But there's a new trend for wide splits, and that's with air-it-out passing teams like Texas Tech.
Traditionally passing teams took very narrow splits to stop inside penetration, Texas Tech takes
exceptionally large splits. Their rationale is a few-fold: (a) make the pass rushers come from farther
away and enlarge the pocket, (b) open up throwing lanes for the quarterback, and (c) because they throw
so much, all they need is a block or two to have an effective draw play -- the defensive ends aren't
even really a factor. They can do this because they are almost exclusively a "man" pass protection team,
just as the old Lavell Edwards BYU offenses were. (Indeed, Mike Leach's offense is a direct descendent
from BYU's offense, he spent time there as an assistant, and many of his other coaches had experience at
BYU as players or coaches when Edwards and Norm Chow were there.)

https://247sports.com/college/oklahoma/Board/86/Contents/Why-Leach-used-extra-wide-line-splits-39710703/

To me, the ultimate offenses in terms of distribution are what we do and the old school wishbone offense and
both of them have wide splits with their lineman. We would do it for zone run lanes and pass blocking
assignments because the edge guys are now wider from the QB than they would be. We start out at three feet.
If we had no trouble in blocking them than we would widen, if we had trouble then we’d tighten them. Defenses
would try to keep a guy in the middle of a gap and shoot that gap, if they did that we would keep it at three
feet. We would just take deeper drop steps to get angles in our run game. No defenses ever had success in doing
that [shooting gaps] against us because, again, it wasn’t something they would consistently do so they weren’t
comfortable in doing it. They’re not good at just shooting gaps because they haven’t done it except for three
practices in preparing to defend us.

The interplay of the wide line splits with the run game was also interesting, however. The wide line splits made
it impossible to use double-teams like traditional zone running teams did, and as a result it was more about each
lineman blocking his man one-on-one. But, because the only time Leach wanted to run the ball is if the numbers in
the box were extremely favorable, the wide line splits helped his linemen in their run blocking because they almost
always had angles. If the defense tried to stretch out with his linemen, there were almost always running lanes inside;
if they tried to pinch down and shoot the gaps, it was easy enough for his linemen to block down and seal the edge for
his runners to scoot around edge. And while his teams weren’t known for their rushing prowess, they did have some success.
In 2008, for example, Leach’s top two rushers combined for 1,475 yards on over 5.8 yards per carry.

My first thought....Belichick will figure out how to defend this in a week.

[Chrebetfan80]

I wrote a little piece about this in another thread and it got burried i think.  I dont think its really that huge a deal as many teams vary their splits depending on what part of the field they are on anyway. But I do think it signals a change in the type of lineman we'll be looking for, which again was something everyone on here already surmised. 

 

The whole concept of wide splits is to help offensive lineman not get overpowered by defensive lineman and to open up the inside run game by creating a larger surface.  It creates wider gaps that are harder to exploit with stunts because the stunts have so far to go to hit.  The other reason teams go to this is it makes it less about drive blocking and more about what we call position blocking. This essentially means we can block defensive players by just shielding them using body position instead of driving them to other areas.  It's effective for some types of zone although like the article states it makes it difficult to double up to backer for inside zone runs. instead you rely on uncovered lineman to get up to the second level. I wouldnt expect the jets splits to be as wide as you see at a TCU or a Texas Tech per say where they have like close to 5 foot splits in some cases. I would imagine the jets would go from solid 2.5/3 foot splits to around 3.5/4. I find it hard to believe that being an inside zone team that the jets will abandon consistent double teams on inside zone for the sake of 5 foot splits.   

As a coach we use wide splits because we predominantly see 50 and bear fronts as an offense so that helps to spread out those congested fronts and allow our lineman an easier time getting to their areas on our inside and outside zone plays.  Especially as a team that will do a-lot of speed option or triple option with shovel being thrown in as well. 

 

So what does this mean?  the jets will be looking at quicker faster more agile lineman going forward as they offer the athleticism to move in a offense built around this.  So when projecting lineman to the jets it may be wise to look at their athletic numbers (shuttle and 40) in order to matchup up player with fit. 

 

[Greenseed4]

35 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

From hogs to piglets

I mean, hopefully we sign a couple new hogs in addition to the piglets. 

[PCP63]

Whether tight splits are better or not really depends on what you're trying to do. Wide splits destroy the effectiveness of play-action, make the run game hit slower, take the QBs eyes off the ball while he catches the snap, and makes pulling and double-teaming pretty damn hard. With that said, the math does work in the favor of the OL, in that the DEs are further, and you don't need to be as physically superior to open up holes. 

 

But another point to consider is where you're trying to hurt the defense. If you're trying to hurt them inside, these wide splits may benefit you. If you're trying to hurt them on the edge, you're better off compressing the formation. If you want me to elaborate on that, I can link to a thread I made about it.

[HawkeyeJet]

The more I read about the benefits the more I think it could benefit Mr. Bell as well.  Running out of the gun with those large splits would conceivably emphasize his two best attributes, vision and patience.

[PCP63]

I should also note that DEs with 3 foot splits only have to travel another ~0.5 yards compared to a 1 foot split during a 5-step drop. Yes, that can give you around 1/5 second extra, which is big, but I'm sure it's not as big of an advantage as people would expect at first glance. Simple Pythagorean theorem at work. For various reasons, I say there are far more advantages to compressed splits.

[jeremy2020]

It's good they're trying something. Let's see the results.

[Augustiniak]

1 hour ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

I wrote a little piece about this in another thread and it got burried i think.  I dont think its really that huge a deal as many teams vary their splits depending on what part of the field they are on anyway. But I do think it signals a change in the type of lineman we'll be looking for, which again was something everyone on here already surmised. 

 

The whole concept of wide splits is to help offensive lineman not get overpowered by defensive lineman and to open up the inside run game by creating a larger surface.  It creates wider gaps that are harder to exploit with stunts because the stunts have so far to go to hit.  The other reason teams go to this is it makes it less about drive blocking and more about what we call position blocking. This essentially means we can block defensive players by just shielding them using body position instead of driving them to other areas.  It's effective for some types of zone although like the article states it makes it difficult to double up to backer for inside zone runs. instead you rely on uncovered lineman to get up to the second level. I wouldnt expect the jets splits to be as wide as you see at a TCU or a Texas Tech per say where they have like close to 5 foot splits in some cases. I would imagine the jets would go from solid 2.5/3 foot splits to around 3.5/4. I find it hard to believe that being an inside zone team that the jets will abandon consistent double teams on inside zone for the sake of 5 foot splits.   

As a coach we use wide splits because we predominantly see 50 and bear fronts as an offense so that helps to spread out those congested fronts and allow our lineman an easier time getting to their areas on our inside and outside zone plays.  Especially as a team that will do a-lot of speed option or triple option with shovel being thrown in as well. 

 

So what does this mean?  the jets will be looking at quicker faster more agile lineman going forward as they offer the athleticism to move in a offense built around this.  So when projecting lineman to the jets it may be wise to look at their athletic numbers (shuttle and 40) in order to matchup up player with fit. 

 

is this what the broncos used when gase was there?

[sec101row23]

1 hour ago, Chrebetfan80 said:

I wrote a little piece about this in another thread and it got burried i think.  I dont think its really that huge a deal as many teams vary their splits depending on what part of the field they are on anyway. But I do think it signals a change in the type of lineman we'll be looking for, which again was something everyone on here already surmised. 

 

The whole concept of wide splits is to help offensive lineman not get overpowered by defensive lineman and to open up the inside run game by creating a larger surface.  It creates wider gaps that are harder to exploit with stunts because the stunts have so far to go to hit.  The other reason teams go to this is it makes it less about drive blocking and more about what we call position blocking. This essentially means we can block defensive players by just shielding them using body position instead of driving them to other areas.  It's effective for some types of zone although like the article states it makes it difficult to double up to backer for inside zone runs. instead you rely on uncovered lineman to get up to the second level. I wouldnt expect the jets splits to be as wide as you see at a TCU or a Texas Tech per say where they have like close to 5 foot splits in some cases. I would imagine the jets would go from solid 2.5/3 foot splits to around 3.5/4. I find it hard to believe that being an inside zone team that the jets will abandon consistent double teams on inside zone for the sake of 5 foot splits.   

As a coach we use wide splits because we predominantly see 50 and bear fronts as an offense so that helps to spread out those congested fronts and allow our lineman an easier time getting to their areas on our inside and outside zone plays.  Especially as a team that will do a-lot of speed option or triple option with shovel being thrown in as well. 

 

So what does this mean?  the jets will be looking at quicker faster more agile lineman going forward as they offer the athleticism to move in a offense built around this.  So when projecting lineman to the jets it may be wise to look at their athletic numbers (shuttle and 40) in order to matchup up player with fit. 

 

Exactly.   You can’t run those Mike Leach splits in the NFL.  

[PCP63]

14 minutes ago, sec101row23 said:

Exactly.   You can’t run those Mike Leach splits in the NFL.  

Well, you can, you'll just be a terrible offensive team. 

[A.J.]

The way Leach ran the Air Raid at Tech was to have massive OL that were hard to move in pass blocking. The wide splits force the DEs to cover more ground coming off the edge which in theory takes them out of the play whether run or pass since most runs will be up the gut against an empty box and the passing game consists of short, quick routes. It also opens up better throwing lanes for the QB.

A big part of making it work was having a lot of 4 & 5 wide sets to force the defense out of the box. Changing the play at the LOS if the QB sees a numbers advantage is always an option. The OL don’t have to be super athletic or even great run blockers, just big enough to wall off defenders so the RB can pick a lane - which I think favors Bell’s skill set as a runner. 

 

[32EBoozer]

3 hours ago, Maxman said:

I was thinking the same thing. Jets start 3 and 0, wide split mania is running wild. We feel unbeatable. Belichick in week four and its all over lol.

Yep... then everyone copies what Bellichek did and we finish 6-10....... A G A I N ! ! !

[32EBoozer]

7 minutes ago, A.J. said:

The way Leach ran the Air Raid at Tech was to have massive OL that were hard to move in pass blocking. The wide splits force the DEs to cover more ground coming off the edge which in theory takes them out of the play whether run or pass since most runs will be up the gut against an empty box and the passing game consists of short, quick routes. It also opens up better throwing lanes for the QB.

A big part of making it work was having a lot of 4 & 5 wide sets to force the defense out of the box. Changing the play at the LOS if the QB sees a numbers advantage is always an option. The OL don’t have to be super athletic or even great run blockers, just big enough to wall off defenders so the RB can pick a lane - which I think favors Bell’s skill set as a runner. 

 

Having DeCastro, Villenueva, Pouncey and Foster is what favored Bell. Get him to the 2nd level and let him make folks miss. 

The Steelers made the commitments needed in the draft. The Jets haven't for over a decade!

[Warfish]

Flavor of Month Gimmicks.  Shocking.

[A.J.]

38 minutes ago, 32EBoozer said:

Having DeCastro, Villenueva, Pouncey and Foster is what favored Bell. Get him to the 2nd level and let him make folks miss. 

The Steelers made the commitments needed in the draft. The Jets haven't for over a decade!

That’s the point though. It’s gimmicky but it covers for having less talent on the OL

[32EBoozer]

59 minutes ago, A.J. said:

That’s the point though. It’s gimmicky but it covers for having less talent on the OL

I’m not sure that’s the case. Going against an explosive front 4 (Eagles, 49ers, Balt) you probably need more athletic OLmen. 
 

 

[PCP63]

5 hours ago, Warfish said:

Flavor of Month Gimmicks.  Shocking.

It's not my preferred style, but it's far from a gimmick. There's actually a good amount of math behind it (albeit basic math). 

[jetstream23]

23 minutes ago, PCP63 said:

It's not my preferred style, but it's far from a gimmick. There's actually a good amount of math behind it (albeit basic math). 

That’s perfect for this place!

[GREENBEAN]

Probably why I’m reading about the Josh Jones stuff. I’ve read he’s good in space 

So is Tristan Wirfs. The guy had a 10’1” broad jump!!! He can literally jump from C gap to the A Gap like Superfly Snuka! Can’t ya imagine it??
just think Of how Gase could use that in this split scheme stuff . Flying OL!!

Wirfs is the most athletic of the bunch and would be a slam dunk for this type of a scheme should he be there... which he won’t.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[sirlancemehlot]

14 hours ago, 32EBoozer said:

 

Over/Under

Bellichek figures out how to beat it in 5 plays.

It's already beatable. I used to coach oline and believe me there is nothing new under the sun.  Mike blitzes are far more difficult to block,  reach blocks and chum blocks (double team chip with a slide to the second level) become far more difficult .  And as far as defensive ends being useless that's bs. It's far harder for a back to catch the edge on an outside run due to increased distance meaning an offense must run power instead of toss or sweep. Olb crowds the edge and DEs  crash or twist inside and all you've got left are wide gaps in the interior that are blitzable and toss, sweep and tunnels screen easily defended on th je outside. there are upsides to wide splits, but it's all defensible. 

[RobR]

58 minutes ago, GREENBEAN said:

So is Tristan Wirfs. The guy had a 10’1” broad jump!!! He can literally jump from C gap to the A Gap like Superfly Snuka! Can’t ya imagine it??
just think Of how Gase could use that in this split scheme stuff . Flying OL!!

Wirfs is the most athletic of the bunch and would be a slam dunk for this type of a scheme should he be there... which he won’t.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

Don't underestimate Becton even with his size. All I see about his detractors is that he's a project, needs time, and is too big.

Now for some facts. He has been a starter since his true freshman year and has almost 35 career starts. He was one of the best pass blockers in the ACC as a true freshman. He's a skies the limit type of prospect that I don't think you're rolling the dice on. His floor is dominant RT for a decade.  

[GREENBEAN]

1 hour ago, RobR said:

Don't underestimate Becton even with his size. All I see about his detractors is that he's a project, needs time, and is too big.

Now for some facts. He has been a starter since his true freshman year and has almost 35 career starts. He was one of the best pass blockers in the ACC as a true freshman. He's a skies the limit type of prospect that I don't think you're rolling the dice on. His floor is dominant RT for a decade.  

I don't underestimate him one bit. In my pre combine mock vid I took Becton over Wirfs at 11. I love him.  And he had a good combine too. I watched his 40 like 10x. I couldn't believe what I was seeing lol  

But Wirfs was jumping higher than WR's and running faster than TE's etc. A 320 lb man jumping 10'1" is crazy town.  That guy is really athletic and I also loved his interviews at the Combine and Moving the Chains. I think Wirfs may also be more versatile than Becton too.  In truth if we land either I would be ecstatic, but neither will be there imo. 

I was more using Wirfs in response to this wide scheme thread. 

[MykePM]

Adam Gase is coaching to where football is going.

[Chrebetfan80]

19 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

is this what the broncos used when gase was there?

I'd honestly have to go back and look at film, but id guess no. 

For everyone that THINKS gase has a like locked in system, there are elements he likes, but a lot of stuff is team specific.  There are things he did in DEN that were different in CHI and different in MIAMI. I'll be interested to see what the splits  actually look like and if it marries up to what im envisioning in my head.