Rivers or Brees

[BugZy]

The Jets are in the same situation as the 2004 San Diego Chargers.

The Chargers starting QB was Brees. Well, the Chargers traded for Rivers (2004) and let Brees walk after the 2005 season.

Why the comparison? Because Brees is a great QB. However, the Chargers let him sign with New Orleans in 2006 and went with Rivers.

They gave up on Brees, and the rest is history.

Now, why am I bringing this up? Darnold and Brees are pretty close stat wise after their first three seasons.

Brees played 42 games between 2002 to 2004. He threw for 8551 yards, 55 TD's, and had 38 interceptions.

Darnold in his first 38 games has thrown for 8097 yards and 45 Td's and has thrown 39 interceptions.

By no means am I saying that Darnold is better than Brees. I'm saying lets not give up on Darnold too soon.

Lets give him a good offensive line  and a couple more weapons (WR or two, good rb) and see what happens.

I would love for the Jets to draft Sewell, and sign Thuney (sp). I think that's what Sam needs.

 

[oatmeal]

13 minutes ago, BugZy said:

The Jets are in the same situation as the 2004 San Diego Chargers.

The Chargers starting QB was Brees. Well, the Chargers traded for Rivers (2004) and let Brees walk after the 2005 season.

Why the comparison? Because Brees is a great QB. However, the Chargers let him sign with New Orleans in 2006 and went with Rivers.

They gave up on Brees, and the rest is history.

Now, why am I bringing this up? Darnold and Brees are pretty close stat wise after their first three seasons.

Brees played 42 games between 2002 to 2004. He threw for 8551 yards, 55 TD's, and had 38 interceptions.

Darnold in his first 38 games has thrown for 8097 yards and 45 Td's and has thrown 39 interceptions.

By no means am I saying that Darnold is better than Brees. I'm saying lets not give up on Darnold too soon.

Lets give him a good offensive line  and a couple more weapons (WR or two, good rb) and see what happens.

I would love for the Jets to draft Sewell, and sign Thuney (sp). I think that's what Sam needs.

 

This is so tired,

Weak argument when you factor in the QBs who’ve been pressured and sacked more than Sam, have wayyyyy better numbers.
 

Also when you consider Flacco played better with these weapons and O-Line. Will a RT and Guard really help Sam learn how to read a NFL defense and throw a consistent deep ball, or will it give him more time in the pocket to F up? I believe the latter 

Sams problems go beyond weapons or building him a fortress. You should go watch the old clip of AB criticism on Ben, because it’s the same exact way any good receiver we bring in will feel about Sam 

[K_O_Brien]

In his third season as an NFL starter, Brees went 11-4, 27 touchdowns and 7 interceptions, a 65.5% completion rate and went to the pro-bowl. He was in a much different place in terms of career trajectory than where Darnold is now.

[jgb]

Your starting premise that Brees was roughly equal to Darnold his first 3 years as a starter or that their situations are in any way related is fatally flawed. Brees made the pro bowl in year 3 and Sam is the worst-rated QB in the league and getting worse, not better. Also, Rivers was selected in the 2004 draft. Brees remained the starter for the Chargers in 2004 (pro bowl) and then the Chargers franchised him and he was again the starter over Rivers for 2005. He tore his labrum in the last game of that season. The Saints still offered him 5 years and $50 million to stay with the team -- starter money, at the time, although it was heavily incentive-based due to the injury which pissed Drew off. He refused and decided to talk to other teams and ended up signing with the Saints for 6 years, $60M. Then the rest was history. The Chargers' confidence in him was shaken by the injury -- after all, in FA several teams' medical staffs refused to clear him -- but in no way did San Diego give up on Brees. In he had not torn his labrum or had accepted the Chargers' offer and regained form after the injury (which he obviously did), it's nearly a certainty that the Chargers would've sought to trade Rivers.

But even granting you the comparison, for every Drew Brees there are dozens of Deshonn Kizers/Geno Smiths/Mark Sanchezes/Josh Rosens/Ryan Leafs/Jamarcus Russells/EJ Manuels/etc. etc. etc.

This is the problem with using outliers to inform decisions -- even where the outlier is relevant, as the Brees one is not, as demonstrated above. We could take it even further and say well, Rich Gannon didn't become a good QB until year 13, so it's always too early to give up on a QB. Instead, the GM -- or, more accurately, his successor as few survive a bust-level performance from their chosen QB -- needs to approximate the net present value of his current faltering QB, incorporating the likelihood of a turnaround and weigh that against the opportunity cost of passing on other options, subtracting the NPV of non-QB prospects to be acquired with those same assets (draft picks, money). When that swings to the negative, you make the move.

I respectfully submit that we are not only at that point with Sam, we are well beyond it.

[jamesr]

Top level stats may look comparable for two players, but you need to look at the detail below then to see what their trajectory is. Two players with identical stats could be heading in totally opposite directions ... which I fear is the case with Sam. He just put in the poorest of his three years and the question is, is that an aberration that can be quickly addressed, or is it symptomatic of a longer term issue that is better disposed of?

I honestly don't think any of us know the answer to this in detail.

[nyjunc]

2 hours ago, BugZy said:

The Jets are in the same situation as the 2004 San Diego Chargers.

The Chargers starting QB was Brees. Well, the Chargers traded for Rivers (2004) and let Brees walk after the 2005 season.

Why the comparison? Because Brees is a great QB. However, the Chargers let him sign with New Orleans in 2006 and went with Rivers.

They gave up on Brees, and the rest is history.

Now, why am I bringing this up? Darnold and Brees are pretty close stat wise after their first three seasons.

Brees played 42 games between 2002 to 2004. He threw for 8551 yards, 55 TD's, and had 38 interceptions.

Darnold in his first 38 games has thrown for 8097 yards and 45 Td's and has thrown 39 interceptions.

By no means am I saying that Darnold is better than Brees. I'm saying lets not give up on Darnold too soon.

Lets give him a good offensive line  and a couple more weapons (WR or two, good rb) and see what happens.

I would love for the Jets to draft Sewell, and sign Thuney (sp). I think that's what Sam needs.

 

I discussed this scenario, Brees didn't become Brees until they drafted Rivers and lit a fire under him.  Can that happen with Sam?  I wouldn't be opposed to drafting a QB and allowing him to compete with Sam.  Brees got lucky that Rivers held out, if he didn't Rivers may have won the job in '04 but I think Sam can play but they have to bring in better coaching and talent around him.

[Dunnie]

The Jets are in the same situation as the 2004 San Diego Chargers.
The Chargers starting QB was Brees. Well, the Chargers traded for Rivers (2004) and let Brees walk after the 2005 season.
Why the comparison? Because Brees is a great QB. However, the Chargers let him sign with New Orleans in 2006 and went with Rivers.
They gave up on Brees, and the rest is history.
Now, why am I bringing this up? Darnold and Brees are pretty close stat wise after their first three seasons.
Brees played 42 games between 2002 to 2004. He threw for 8551 yards, 55 TD's, and had 38 interceptions.
Darnold in his first 38 games has thrown for 8097 yards and 45 Td's and has thrown 39 interceptions.
By no means am I saying that Darnold is better than Brees. I'm saying lets not give up on Darnold too soon.
Lets give him a good offensive line  and a couple more weapons (WR or two, good rb) and see what happens.
I would love for the Jets to draft Sewell, and sign Thuney (sp). I think that's what Sam needs.
 

Incredibly ... I think I'd be ok giving him one more year .... we blew it on not grabbing Lawrence when we could ... I'm convinced this contributed to Gase being fired.

Now we ne need to trade back and build this "team" back up draft a QB next year.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using JetNation.com mobile app

[Barkus]

I don’t know what to make of Darnold, guys like Tyler Heinicke and wolford even look better than him. How is this possible? Is he really this bad??? If we try to run it back with Darnold I would trade back and draft one of the other offensive tackles and stockpile more picks to continue to build the team up. If Darnold still stinks with better team and new coach then get another qb after 2021. Even if it is a vet like stafford, Ryan or mariotta?

[QB1]

The comparison is a good one. Haters will irrationally say that it wasn’t Brees third year as a “starter” like sitting doesn’t have a huge benefit. Not to mention Brees played more in college.

[rangerous]

5 hours ago, BugZy said:

The Jets are in the same situation as the 2004 San Diego Chargers.

The Chargers starting QB was Brees. Well, the Chargers traded for Rivers (2004) and let Brees walk after the 2005 season.

Why the comparison? Because Brees is a great QB. However, the Chargers let him sign with New Orleans in 2006 and went with Rivers.

They gave up on Brees, and the rest is history.

Now, why am I bringing this up? Darnold and Brees are pretty close stat wise after their first three seasons.

Brees played 42 games between 2002 to 2004. He threw for 8551 yards, 55 TD's, and had 38 interceptions.

Darnold in his first 38 games has thrown for 8097 yards and 45 Td's and has thrown 39 interceptions.

By no means am I saying that Darnold is better than Brees. I'm saying lets not give up on Darnold too soon.

Lets give him a good offensive line  and a couple more weapons (WR or two, good rb) and see what happens.

I would love for the Jets to draft Sewell, and sign Thuney (sp). I think that's what Sam needs.

 

It’s not like rivers has been chopped liver.  Brees has certainly done a really good job in New Orleans.  Who knows if rivers went had gone to the giants and Eli to the chargers.

[hawk]

6 hours ago, oatmeal said:

This is so tired,

Weak argument when you factor in the QBs who’ve been pressured and sacked more than Sam, have wayyyyy better numbers.
 

Also when you consider Flacco played better with these weapons and O-Line. Will a RT and Guard really help Sam learn how to read a NFL defense and throw a consistent deep ball, or will it give him more time in the pocket to F up? I believe the latter 

Sams problems go beyond weapons or building him a fortress. You should go watch the old clip of AB criticism on Ben, because it’s the same exact way any good receiver we bring in will feel about Sam 

There is a sentiment that Darnold regressed last year.  If true, that is coaching.  Period.  The talent around him didn't change much from the year prior, coaching did.  

The Flacco argument is tired because he is a quarterback at this stage in his career where he is going to do what he wants and the effect of coaching is minimal.

*I am not advocating Darnold stays or goes*

 

[southparkcpa]

6 hours ago, K_O_Brien said:

In his third season as an NFL starter, Brees went 11-4, 27 touchdowns and 7 interceptions, a 65.5% completion rate and went to the pro-bowl. He was in a much different place in terms of career trajectory than where Darnold is now.

I 'd like to see him do that with the 2020 Jets under Gase. 

[nyjunc]

7 hours ago, K_O_Brien said:

In his third season as an NFL starter, Brees went 11-4, 27 touchdowns and 7 interceptions, a 65.5% completion rate and went to the pro-bowl. He was in a much different place in terms of career trajectory than where Darnold is now.

True but he had Ladainian Tomlinson and Antonio Gates among others.  That has to help a developing QB.  That was also his fourth year in the league and he was 25 already.

[Jets723]

7 hours ago, BugZy said:

The Jets are in the same situation as the 2004 San Diego Chargers.

The Chargers starting QB was Brees. Well, the Chargers traded for Rivers (2004) and let Brees walk after the 2005 season.

Why the comparison? Because Brees is a great QB. However, the Chargers let him sign with New Orleans in 2006 and went with Rivers.

They gave up on Brees, and the rest is history.

Now, why am I bringing this up? Darnold and Brees are pretty close stat wise after their first three seasons.

Brees played 42 games between 2002 to 2004. He threw for 8551 yards, 55 TD's, and had 38 interceptions.

Darnold in his first 38 games has thrown for 8097 yards and 45 Td's and has thrown 39 interceptions.

By no means am I saying that Darnold is better than Brees. I'm saying lets not give up on Darnold too soon.

Lets give him a good offensive line  and a couple more weapons (WR or two, good rb) and see what happens.

I would love for the Jets to draft Sewell, and sign Thuney (sp). I think that's what Sam needs.

 

Good Post.  Definetly something up think about.  Plus the Chargers weren’t as bad as the Jets roster Had been the past  3 years and didn’t have Adam Gase ad a coach ? 

[southparkcpa]

4 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

True but he had Ladainian Tomlinson and Antonio Gates among others.  That has to help a developing QB.  That was also his fourth year in the league and he was 25 already.

and he didn't have GASE and a college talent O-line.  

[pdxgreen]

We're in between eras of two HOF quarterbacks?

[Jetsfan80]

29 minutes ago, hawk said:

There is a sentiment that Darnold regressed last year.  If true, that is coaching.  Period.  The talent around him didn't change much from the year prior, coaching did.  

The Flacco argument is tired because he is a quarterback at this stage in his career where he is going to do what he wants and the effect of coaching is minimal.

*I am not advocating Darnold stays or goes*

 

 

He "regressed" from being a bottom 3 QB to the bottom.  People are operating like he was an average QB who got ruined.  No.  He was a bad QB who got worse.

Comparisons to Drew Brees.  lmao.

[Skeet Ulrich]

It's really astounding to see the mental gymnastics to twist and turn Darnold into a great QB that has been let down by his environment. When you see guys like Hurts and Heinicke come into equally as bad situations with 0 NFL experience and look 10 times better than Darnold... I just don't get it.

Food for thought: If Darnold were drafted by the Dolphins 3rd overall three years ago and had his exact same career, are people making the same excuses around here for the guy?

[Icer]

3 minutes ago, Skeet Ulrich said:

It's really astounding to see the mental gymnastics to twist and turn Darnold into a great QB that has been let down by his environment. When you see guys like Hurts and Heinicke come into equally as bad situations with 0 NFL experience and look 10 times better than Darnold... I just don't get it.

Food for thought: If Darnold were drafted by the Dolphins 3rd overall three years ago and had his exact same career, are people making the same excuses around here for the guy?

Of course not. Jets fans are already calling Tua garbage and he had a better season than Darnold has had in 3 years

[hawk]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

He "regressed" from being a bottom 3 QB to the bottom.  People are operating like he was an average QB who got ruined.  No.  He was a bad QB who got worse.

Comparisons to Drew Brees.  lmao.

I wouldn't say "people" are operating like that, or comparing "to" Brees.

Most people are open minded that look at all options for educated answers. Some are stubborn know it alls who really know nothing at all.  

[Guilhermezmc]

7 hours ago, K_O_Brien said:

In his third season as an NFL starter, Brees went 11-4, 27 touchdowns and 7 interceptions, a 65.5% completion rate and went to the pro-bowl. He was in a much different place in terms of career trajectory than where Darnold is now.

Case closed

[Biggs]

7 hours ago, BugZy said:

The Jets are in the same situation as the 2004 San Diego Chargers.

The Chargers starting QB was Brees. Well, the Chargers traded for Rivers (2004) and let Brees walk after the 2005 season.

Why the comparison? Because Brees is a great QB. However, the Chargers let him sign with New Orleans in 2006 and went with Rivers.

They gave up on Brees, and the rest is history.

Now, why am I bringing this up? Darnold and Brees are pretty close stat wise after their first three seasons.

Brees played 42 games between 2002 to 2004. He threw for 8551 yards, 55 TD's, and had 38 interceptions.

Darnold in his first 38 games has thrown for 8097 yards and 45 Td's and has thrown 39 interceptions.

By no means am I saying that Darnold is better than Brees. I'm saying lets not give up on Darnold too soon.

Lets give him a good offensive line  and a couple more weapons (WR or two, good rb) and see what happens.

I would love for the Jets to draft Sewell, and sign Thuney (sp). I think that's what Sam needs.

 

SD had a pro-bowl QB, Drew Brees with a major shoulder injury and a top 4 pick who they liked.  The Jets have a QB who looks like a bust and a 4th round QB who hasn't taken a snap.

Brees injury was very serious.  He had a full 360 degree tear of the labrum.  During surgery they found he had a partial tear of his rotor cuff.   After surgery it was far from guaranteed that he would ever make it back.  

Brees was an up and coming star who had a major injury to his throwing shoulder.  Darnold situation isn't remotely the same. 

FYI the Chargers had the first pick in the draft and drafted Eli Manning.  They turned that pick into Rivers and a third plus a 1st and a 5th the following year.. 

 

[jgb]

43 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

I 'd like to see him do that with the 2020 Jets under Gase. 

 

22 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

True but he had Ladainian Tomlinson and Antonio Gates among others.  That has to help a developing QB.  That was also his fourth year in the league and he was 25 already.

 

18 minutes ago, Jets723 said:

Good Post.  Definetly something up think about.  Plus the Chargers weren’t as bad as the Jets roster Had been the past  3 years and didn’t have Adam Gase ad a coach ? 

 

17 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

and he didn't have GASE and a college talent O-line.  

This can all be true but there's still a thousand miles between "Sam has been in a bad situation" to "Sam would be a FQB in a good situation." That ground cannot be leapt over, it must be walked. Otherwise it needs to be applied to every bad QB on a bad team, which strays dangerously close to nihilism.

[Jets723]

25 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

True but he had Ladainian Tomlinson and Antonio Gates among others.  That has to help a developing QB.  That was also his fourth year in the league and he was 25 already.

Absolutely no doubt about it 

[Jets723]

21 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

and he didn't have GASE and a college talent O-line.  

Bingo 

[slimjasi]

How were Brees and Darnold "close" after 3 years of play?

Brees made the pro bowl in 2004 (his third year starting) and his team went 12-4. I mean, I'm not trying to sh*t on anyone in particular with this next statement, but the delusion on this board regarding Sam has reached emergency levels. 

 

[ZachEY]

12 minutes ago, jgb said:

which strays dangerously close to nihilism.

Isn't that what we're all doing here?

[jgb]

Just now, TeddEY said:

Isn't that what we're all doing here?

If our fathers rooted for different teams, we wouldn't have busted as fans!

[slimjasi]

26 minutes ago, Icer said:

Of course not. Jets fans are already calling Tua garbage and he had a better season than Darnold has had in 3 years

It's incredible. 

The same people who want year 4 of Darnold, are out here calling Baker Mayfield a midget and Tua a Pennington clone. It's funny. 

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

If our fathers rooted for different teams, we wouldn't have busted as fans!

Jets/Mets/Knicks/Rangers

My father was the Sam Darnold or Adam Gase (your choice) of fans!

[jgb]

Just now, TeddEY said:

Jets/Mets/Knicks/Rangers

My father was the Sam Darnold or Adam Gase (your choice) of fans!

Same exact as me. I'll kick your dad in the nuts, do the same to mine?

[Jets723]

41 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

True but he had Ladainian Tomlinson and Antonio Gates among others.  That has to help a developing QB.  That was also his fourth year in the league and he was 25 already.

Yeah I forgot about Gates too.  He was a bigtime offense weapon.  Agree with your overall point 

[Waka Flocka Flacco]

5 minutes ago, TeddEY said:

was

That must have happened one of the times I was banned. Regrets. How many stadiums did you end up hitting?

[Greensleeves]

Stop with the horrible line excuses. That same line came together and contained the Rams and Browns and gave Sam ample time to throw. Flacco had plenty of time to throw downfield. We don't need another tackle picked high in the first round that will weaken last year's top pick and have one disgruntled tackle that will get paid less because he was moved to right tackle. We need a guard or center. Get a guard in FA and pick the center in the 2nd or 3rd. If we trade back we need to get Sam weapons - Smith or Chase should be the pick (trade with Atlanta) or stay where you are and pick Smith if you don't want to go QB. We have plenty of picks - just pick where we are for the first 3. There are only so many spots on the roster and, contrary to popular belief, I really don't think we are that far off if we get the QB/Coach/Staff right. I know that's a big IF.

[ZachEY]

29 minutes ago, jgb said:

Same exact as me. I'll kick your dad in the nuts, do the same to mine?