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DESHAUN OFFICIALLY REQUESTS TRADE BABY


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41 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Jets fans, of all people, thumbing their noses at elite QB's.  Unreal.  

Ah yes the old all or nothing argument we see more and more these days in all walks of life and all topics.

 

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Just for me personally, I think we should build up the OL and give Sweet Sammy another shot, we can always trade for a 25-year-old top-5 QB a year from now. JMO

MAKE EET HAPPEN JOE DOUGLAS AND STUFF @Matt39 INTO A LOCKER

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16 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I am not waiting around for a 25 year old Rodgers. I’m drafting fields....

as for the other teams, let them make a 4 first round draft pick blunder

Justin Fields

2019  12 games   67%  238 of 354 comp   3273 yards  41 td's  3 int's       rushing  484    td's 10   rate  181 

2020  8 games    70%  158 of 225 comp    2100 yards  22 td's  6 int's      rushing  383    td's 5     rate  175

======================================================

Watson

2015  15 games 333  of 491 comp  67%  4109 yards  35 td's 13 int's   1100 rushing 12 td's   rate  156 

2016  15 games  399 of 579 comp   67%  4593 yards  41 td's 17 int's   629 rushing  9 td's      rate 151

So here are the last two years stats of Fields (OSU) and Watson (Clemson).  Extremely similar skillsets and stats. Extremely similar physical attributes with the slight edge going to Felds. He's a bit stronger and faster. There's little doubt Fields potential can translate to the NFL game.  Watson has proven he's a FQB. That's great. But given the metrics, Fields has that very same potential to meet or exceed it.   No way, no how do I trade 4 1st's rounders for Watson.  This team lacks talent across the board.  You take Fields at #2, keep your draft picks and don't look back. Rookie QB on a rookie contract that you can build around over the next 4-5 years.  With the 4-5 other draft picks you'd have to spend to get Watson, you could fill 4-5 starting positions- WR, OL, Edge CB.  Watson is a luxury we cannot afford. 

 

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1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Jets fans, of all people, thumbing their noses at elite QB's.  Unreal.  

Nobody is thumbing their nose at elite QB's like Watson.  We're just flipping the finger at trading away 4 1st rounders for one when we can get a potentially similar one with 1 draft pick.

 

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35 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

List your top ten QBs

Group 1: mahomes, Brady, Rodgers, wilson

Not necessarily ordered.

group 2: Allen, Watson, Hebert, murray

again, not ordered

there’s 8, not even worth going beyond those 8. There is not a great depth of great QBs right now in the league.

There is one guy in the above group I even consider trading 2+ picks for and that’s mahomes. 4, including 2 overall is probably too much even though it’s pointless because he’s not available as he shouldn’t be.

Watson for however good he may be was 4-12 in a weak division. Not a knock on him, but it shows you need talent around the QB to win

 

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30 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

Nobody is thumbing their nose at elite QB's like Watson.  We're just flipping the finger at trading away 4 1st rounders for one when we can get a potentially similar one with 1 draft pick.

 

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4 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Prove it

Mark Sanchez went to 4 other teams that were better than the Jets after he was done here.  He showed no noticeable improvement elsewhere, and was out of the league by the age of 28.  Meanwhile, Justin Herbert just played with the # 32 ranked OL and a HC that got fired last season.  Didn't stop him from being the Offensive ROY. 

Scores of top or 2nd/3rd tier QB's have produced regardless of the circumstances around them.  Such as Matthew Stafford for basically his whole career.  Bad franchise, but he still was a very good QB.  And like Watson did last year.  No Hopkins and a dumpster fire org, and his offense actually scored MORE points in 2020 than it did in 2019.  Meanwhile, Jared Goff played for a great team his whole career and still just got unceremoniously dumped, because he isn't good.  

I can list a lot more examples if you'd like.  Good QB's lift up their franchises.  Bad QB's just end up with a pile of excuses that aren't actually meaningful.  Even the best coaches and situations can't make a bad QB good.  Just ask Bill Belichick, who early this past season whined about not having enough talent on the field (and he was primarily talking about Cam).  

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Mark Sanchez went to 4 other teams that were better than the Jets after he was done here.  He showed no noticeable improvement.  Meanwhile, Justin Herbert just played with the # 32 ranked OL and a HC that got fired last season.  Didn't stop him from being the Offensive ROY. 

Scores of top or 2nd/3rd tier QB's have produced regardless of the circumstances around them.  Such as Matthew Stafford for basically his whole career.  And like Watson did last year.  No Hopkins and a dumpster fire org, and his offense actually scored MORE points in 2020 than it did in 2019.  Meanwhile, Jared Goff played for a great team his whole career and still just got unceremoniously dumped, because he isn't good.

Good QB's lift their franchises.  Bad QB's just end up with  a pile of excuses that aren't actually meaningful.  Even the best coaches and situations can't make a bad QB good.  Just ask Bill Belichick, who early this past season whined about not having enough talent on the field.  

Mark Sanchez shoulder was shot by the time he left NY. I disagree with your argument. Either way, trading 3 let alone 4 1st round draft picks is complete org suicide for Watson, who I like and think is a good QB

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The Jets haven't been to a Super Bowl in 50 years.  The Jets also haven't had a franchise QB in 50 years.  And its never been more important to find an actual, top tier QB if you want to be a perennial contender.  This is a correlated and causal factor.

Why is JetNation so averse to this very simple point?  Why do so many of you insist on arguing that you can win with a C or below grade QB, or that a C or D QB can become an A or B QB if he only has weppinz and someone to call  the good plays?

Its absolute madness. 

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2 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Mark Sanchez shoulder was shot by the time he left NY. I disagree with your argument. Either way, trading 3 let alone 4 1st round draft picks is complete org suicide for Watson, who I like and think is a good QB

Its not suicide at all, because he's 25.  There'd be plenty of time to build even without some 1st round picks around.  And we'd still have plenty of picks and FA dollars to build around him even in the short term.  FA dollars that would be spent on quality players who would like to play with Deshaun Watson.  Particularly at WR.

No WR is taking market value to come play with Sam Darnold.

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1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

I just think that’s a massive game of chicken, though. Watson is doing everything he can to shoot his way out of town ASAP and everyone is going to come a-running once Caserio accepts that fate. I don’t think Douglas can afford to **** around with this because the alternatives are long shots to the extreme

Oh I don’t think he can f around either but I think it’s very non trivial Caserio shoots himself in the foot and that scenario has to be part of planning.

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43 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

Nobody is thumbing their nose at elite QB's like Watson.  We're just flipping the finger at trading away 4 1st rounders for one when we can get a potentially similar one with 1 draft pick.

 

 

We've drafted QBs for 4 decades and not one has been even half as good as Watson so let's not act like it's easy to find a guy that can throw for 4800 yards with below average supporting cast or something "potentially similar."

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12 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Its not suicide at all, because he's 25.  There'd be plenty of time to build even without some 1st round picks around.  And we'd still have plenty of picks and FA dollars to build around him even in the short term.  FA dollars that would be spent on quality players who would like to play with Deshaun Watson.  Particularly at WR.

No WR is taking market value to come play with Sam Darnold.

I believe he’s a huge injury risk, and even without that, he’s going to account for 40m towards the cap in two years and we have very little on our roster. At some point you have to pay bectin, Williams, hopefully mims. You cannot fill your roster with overpriced FA’s. You finish your roster with them. Players come for money

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2 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I believe he’s a huge injury risk, and even without that, he’s going to account for 40m towards the cap in two years and we have very little on our roster. At some point you have to pay bectin, Williams, hopefully mims. You cannot fill your roster with overpriced FA’s. You finish your roster with them. Players come for money

At some point you'd have to pay Fields, too.  Watson's contract that we'd be inheriting would be quite reasonable.  On average, less than $30M a year.  I don't think that aspect should be a factor in this at all.  We have plenty of money and a long time before any of those guys you listed need to get their 2nd contracts.  Any GM worth his salt can afford to pay a QB, LT, WR, and one elite defensive player.  

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15 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The Jets haven't been to a Super Bowl in 50 years.  The Jets also haven't had a franchise QB in 50 years.  And its never been more important to find an actual, top tier QB if you want to be a perennial contender.  This is a correlated and causal factor.

Why is JetNation so averse to this very simple point?  Why do so many of you insist on arguing that you can win with a C or below grade QB, or that a C or D QB can become an A or B QB if he only has weppinz and someone to call  the good plays?

Its absolute madness. 

There are fewer top tier QBs than ever before. The position has changed. You need a good Qb and a strong team. Eli was never better than good. His rosters were. He got hot at the right time and won 2 SBs. Watson is good, not elite, he’s not dragging a dumpster roster to the playoffs. See this year . Absolute madness is trading 3+’first round picks for a good QB

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

At some point you'd have to pay Fields, too.  Watson's contract that we'd be inheriting would be quite reasonable.  On average, less than $30M a year.  I don't think that aspect should be a factor in this at all.  We have plenty of money and a long time before any of those guys you listed need to get their 2nd contracts.  Any GM worth his salt can afford to pay a QB, LT, WR, and one elite defensive player.  

It’s a huge factor when you are giving up first round picks and paying him. If it’s one or the other fine, but both is insanity 

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2 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

To the best of my knowledge, Rodgers did not have two torn ACLs at this age, and was not undersized with an average arm. People realize we play in the east coast in December right? Not in the south and in domes and great weather.

Rodgers is undersized and famously has a complex about it. He must have been leaning forward on his toes to somehow get generously listed at 6’2” — pretty much every person who’s ever met him says he’s smaller than they thought. Favre was (is) 6’2” and everyone said Rodgers looked at least a solid inch shorter. 

https://images.complex.com/complex/images/c_fill,dpr_auto,f_auto,q_90,w_1400/fl_lossy,pg_1/fun3xfgiigsh5ztvp1hu/brett-favre-aaron-rodgers 

This time in 2002 Brady - with his first superbowl ring - was commonly thought of as a system qb dumpoff queen with at best average arm strength. Playing on the east coast, outdoors, in December.

What makes a special player special isn’t typically combine numbers of height or radar gun or hand size or hair color. Jamarcus Russell & Ryan Leaf didn’t become great QBs despite having it all from measurements standpoints.

Most football fans know this. 

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5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Rodgers is undersized and famously has a complex about it. He must have been leaning forward on his toes to somehow get generously listed at 6’2” — pretty much every person who’s ever met him says he’s smaller than they thought. Favre was (is) 6’2” and everyone said Rodgers looked at least a solid inch shorter. 

https://images.complex.com/complex/images/c_fill,dpr_auto,f_auto,q_90,w_1400/fl_lossy,pg_1/fun3xfgiigsh5ztvp1hu/brett-favre-aaron-rodgers 

This time in 2002 Brady - with his first superbowl ring - was commonly thought of as a system qb dumpoff queen with at best average arm strength. Playing on the east coast, outdoors, in December.

What makes a special player special isn’t typically combine numbers of height or radar gun or hand size or hair color. Jamarcus Russell & Ryan Leaf didn’t become great QBs despite having it all from measurements standpoints.

Most football fans know this. 

You wrote an awful lot about one of multiple concerns I have. Doesn’t change my stance at all, but thanks.

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1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Mark Sanchez went to 4 other teams that were better than the Jets after he was done here

Mark Sanchez NEVER played on a better team then the 2009 and 2010 NY Jets those teams were probably the best Jet teams ever outside of QB.

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Houston fan chiming in and even though i hate our franchise right now,  I'd  rather have DW4 than any number of picks NY or any team has to offer. If we were weighing leverage I'd say the scale heavily tilts in Houston's favor. The Texans are going to be terrible with or without Watson next year, so if he decides to withhold his services it just guarentees the Texans better draft positioning for next year. Also, it is yet to be seen if Watson is willing to sit, miss game checks, and give back guaranteed money when he signed an extension with a franchise he already knew to be dysnfunctional for those same guaranteed dollars? Next, one of the teams that would be competing against NY for Watson's services resides in the same division as New York.  Do you really want to be competing in a division against Josh Allen, Watson, and the Pats without a franchise qb on their level? The rosters of the Colts and Titans were a hell of alot better than the Texans this year and in each of those games the Texans came down to houston just blowing the games at end on some fluke plays along the lines of Derek Carr/Henry Ruggs.  I saw Zach Wilson play a few times last year and even though he may not have the measureables Trevor has i still think he's the best QB in the draft from what I saw and I like him alot. That being said give me Watson all-day over any of the qbs in this draft. Houston  shouldn't move off Watson unless he shows he's willing to sit out a year, and even if that's the case they should only be incentivized to do so for a king's ransom because  with or without him they are going to suck in the foreseeable future and he's locked under contract.

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1 hour ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

We've drafted QBs for 4 decades and not one has been even half as good as Watson so let's not act like it's easy to find a guy that can throw for 4800 yards with below average supporting cast or something "potentially similar."

4800 yards - woop de do. Namath, Fouts or Marino would throw for 10,000 yards in today's NFL.  And we've had some decent QB's over the years.  We've been so close over the years with Todd, Obrien, Testeverde.  Many teams have won SB's with crummy QB's.   Balance in football is ultimately the deciding factor that gets you to the promised land.

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2 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

4800 yards - woop de do. Namath or Marino would throw for 10,000 yards in today's NFL.  And we've had some decent QB's over the years.  We've been so close over the years with Todd, Obrien, Testeverde.  Many teams have won SB's with crummy QB's.   Balance in football is ultimately the deciding factor that gets you to the promised land.

Close but no cigar. 

Almost only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades 

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1 hour ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

There are fewer top tier QBs than ever before. The position has changed. You need a good Qb and a strong team. Eli was never better than good. His rosters were. He got hot at the right time and won 2 SBs. Watson is good, not elite, he’s not dragging a dumpster roster to the playoffs. See this year . Absolute madness is trading 3+’first round picks for a good QB

Exactly why Watson is so valuable.

Yes, you need a good QB and a strong team.  Acquiring Watson would not be nearly as devastating to our chances of also building a quality roster than you are arguing.  And even if the team suffers some short-term deficiencies on building the rest of the roster, again, he's 25.  The long-term would be bright regardless.  

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1 hour ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

It’s a huge factor when you are giving up first round picks and paying him. If it’s one or the other fine, but both is insanity 

We have 4 first rounders in the next 2 drafts, plus should get another high one for Darnold.  This isn't an either/or.  It'd both.  We could get Watson AND still have plenty of picks left over AND plenty of FA dollars.

It wouldn't be roster armageddon.  Not even close.  

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3 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Close but no cigar. 

Almost only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades 

My point, if you follow the bouncing ball, is that balance across the board, is more important.  Acquiring a FQB, at the expense of depleting your draft picks and available cash resources is just plain silly.  Marino went to 1 SB and was crushed by the 49er's, who were probably the greatest NFL team ever. Yea they had Montana and Rice (best QR/WR combo ever) but they also had incredible balance throughout that roster.  Just ridiculous.

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1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The Jets haven't been to a Super Bowl in 50 years.  The Jets also haven't had a franchise QB in 50 years.  And its never been more important to find an actual, top tier QB if you want to be a perennial contender.  This is a correlated and causal factor.

Why is JetNation so averse to this very simple point?  Why do so many of you insist on arguing that you can win with a C or below grade QB, or that a C or D QB can become an A or B QB if he only has weppinz and someone to call  the good plays?

Its absolute madness. 

It's 52 years. 50 years, hmmm, that's like when people say I heard a gunshot around 7, 8, maybe 9 o'clock something like that when they're being interrogated by the po po. 

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14 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

4800 yards - woop de do. Namath, Fouts or Marino would throw for 10,000 yards in today's NFL.  And we've had some decent QB's over the years.  We've been so close over the years with Todd, Obrien, Testeverde.  Many teams have won SB's with crummy QB's.   Balance in football is ultimately the deciding factor that gets you to the promised land.

Lol, balance wins? You mean a balance of players like tom brady, Mahomes, Rodgers, peyton and big Ben? How many teams have won super bowls the  last 17 years without a really really good QB? The Giants, Ravens and eagles. And even Eli and flacco were pretty good when they won.

You need a franchise QB.

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18 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

Lol, balance wins? You mean a balance of players like tom brady, Mahomes, Rodgers, peyton and big Ben? How many teams have won super bowls the  last 17 years without a really really good QB? The Giants, Ravens and eagles. And even Eli and flacco were pretty good when they won.

You need a franchise QB.

Eli isn't even considered a HOF QB by many.  Rodgers for all his glory, and Farve, won only 1 SB each.  Add Drew Brees to that list. Yes its great to have a FQB. Not disputing that.  Just not willing to rob Peter to pay Paul. BTW, Dilfer and Johnson both won SB's and were below average QB's their entire career.  Throw in Plunkett, Rypien, Doug Williams, Hostettler while youre at it.

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1 hour ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

You wrote an awful lot about one of multiple concerns I have. Doesn’t change my stance at all, but thanks.

1. That’s not a lot of writing for me.

2. Right now it’s not looking too surprising that each point you’ve made was just shot down & it didn’t change your stance at all. 

The only under-25 QB to have a completion percentage over 70%. What’s more, he did it while leading the league in yards per completed pass (i.e. he didn’t get that completion percentage by dumping it off, behind a worse line than the Jets fielded). Yet your “stance” is Fields - who’s never taken an NFL snap - already has a more promising future. Lmao.

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3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

What are the intermediate possibilities between A and B that I’m missing?

Absurd reply. 2 years of team building, let me respond to your two hypotheticals with eleventh billion addition ones. Cmon

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