DESHAUN OFFICIALLY REQUESTS TRADE BABY

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

The silly number argument? Like, that silly little cap that doesn’t matter? that’s the avg, next year it’s 19, they aren’t competing next year, when it matters its 40. Do much better

"When it matters", they can extend his deal and lower the cap hit that season if they need to.  In the meantime, they'll have 2 years where he'll be very cheap.  Douglas would be able to take advantage of that.

You seem to think that by avoiding Watson, the Jets would avoid ever having to pay a QB big money.  Have you been paying attention to the QB contracts around the league?  $40M is about to become the norm.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You struggle with the concept that without a QB, having a great roster barely matters.  And that Justin Fields is far from a guarantee to be "that guy". 

With how difficult it is to find one, you get the sure thing the rare time it comes available, and worry about the rest of the roster later.

I disagree , I respect your opinion, I understand where you’re coming from, I don’t see Watson as being as good as you do, and I think he is far from a sure thing to continue at the level he has been or improve.

[Jetsfan80]

28 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Watson has never had a season without a top flight bonafide number 1 receiver. That doesn’t make him bad, but it helps a lot. Also, if you look at Hopkins and cooks, I don’t see them having gotten better with Watson, they were largely the same guy before and with Watson 

Brandin Cooks?  lol.  He's such a WR1 that 3 franchises have dumped his a$$.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

"When it matters", they can extend his deal and lower the cap hit that season if they need to.  In the meantime, they'll have 2 years where he'll be very cheap.  Douglas would be able to take advantage of that.

You seem to think that by avoiding Watson, the Jets would avoid ever having to pay a QB big money.  Have you been paying attention to the QB contracts around the league?  $40M is about to become the norm.

Timing is everything my friend, timing is everything. If we drafted Watson and didn’t have to give up 4 picks to get him; the money wouldn’t be an issue. The problem is those draft picks represent quality players locked up at cheap rookie money and club control. You lose both when you trade for Watson a kings ransoms and you have to pay QB money

[Flea Flicking Frank]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Brandin Cooks?  lol.  He's such a WR1 that 3 franchises have dumped his a$$.

Your the big stats guy, look at his stats.

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Timing is everything my friend, timing is everything. If we drafted Watson and didn’t have to give up 4 picks to get him; the money wouldn’t be an issue. The problem is those draft picks represent quality players locked up at cheap rookie money and club control. You lose both when you trade for Watson a kings ransoms and you have to pay QB money

Those draft picks represent no better than a 50 % shot at getting a quality player.  

And you keep saying it will be four 1sts like that's actually a thing.  It won't be.  The # 2 pick is the prize for Houston.  They'll end up settling for # 2, one of the Seattle 1sts, and maybe an additional mid-rounder.

Meanwhile, should the Jets pass on Watson, they'll eventually have to spend heavy draft capital on a QB anyways.  Possibly via trading up.  

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Your the big stats guy, look at his stats.

Certainly he at one time was treated like a WR1, has produced like he should be a WR1 and gets paid like one too.  That doesn't explain why 3 other NFL franchises haven't prioritized keeping him.  In 2018 he was traded for a 4th round pick.  That doesn't scream WR1 to me.  That screams "he's a ticking timebomb and isn't as good as his basic #'s suggest".

Certainly one would have at least expected a dropoff in productivity from Watson going from Hopkins to Cooks.  It didn't happen.  And then the Watson haters had to scramble to find something else to complain about his play.  

[Flea Flicking Frank]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Those draft picks represent no better than a 50 % shot at getting a quality player.  

And you keep saying it will be four 1sts like that's actually a thing.  It won't be.  The # 2 pick is the prize for Houston.  They'll end up settling for # 2, one of the Seattle 1sts, and maybe an additional mid-rounder.

Meanwhile, should the Jets pass on Watson, they'll eventually have to spend heavy draft capital on a QB anyways.  Possibly via trading up.  

The latest rumor I saw was the jets have an offer for 4 1sts and additional picks and players. And you have some saying 3 firsts is worth it including 2 overall. If they give up 2, a 1 next year and a mid rounder, I’m ok with that. My argument has been on 3+ which is insanity when you are including 2 overal which in the past has been traded for as many as 3 1s. I wouldn’t even do that deal, but I’d be exited to have a good qb on the roster and hope we can build around him before his next knee issue 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Certainly he at one time was treated like a WR1, has produced like he should be a WR1 and gets paid like one too.  That doesn't explain why 3 other NFL franchises haven't prioritized keeping him.  In 2018 he was traded for a 4th round pick.  That doesn't scream WR1 to me.  That screams "he's a ticking timebomb and isn't as good as his basic #'s suggest".

Certainly one would have at least expected a dropoff in productivity from Watson going from Hopkins to Cooks.  It didn't happen.  And then the Watson haters had to scramble to find something else to complain about his play.  

Who hates Watson? I don’t see anyone, this is some strange hill you are on. I haven’t seen anyone say he isn’t good. Questioning if he is truly great is not saying he’s not good. It’s really strange my friend.

[GreekJet]

3 hours ago, DetroitRed said:

People like to say Watson lost his best WR and still dominated. He did great. But take a look at Brandin Cooks career numbers. I’d argue they are top 5 in the league in the last 5 years,  easy 

The Jets drafted Calvin Pryor over Cooks. 

[DetroitRed]

11 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Certainly he at one time was treated like a WR1, has produced like he should be a WR1 and gets paid like one too.  That doesn't explain why 3 other NFL franchises haven't prioritized keeping him.  In 2018 he was traded for a 4th round pick.  That doesn't scream WR1 to me.  That screams "he's a ticking timebomb and isn't as good as his basic #'s suggest"

His production is the best way to judge him.  You think number of franchises is a better way? I’m not vouching for his character, so you can use that argument all day long. Name 10 WRs with better PRODUCTION over the last 6 years.  Can’t do it

[derp]

Peter King’s suggested cost: picks 2 and 34, the higher of the Jets’ first round picks in 2022, a second round pick in 2023, Quinnen Williams, and Sam Darnold.

He also posited a) Douglas may prefer to build through the draft and b) another variable could be the Jets’ ability to take on some contracts from Houston (i.e. Mercilus).

[Marshmello]

Here is part of the article.

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/02/22/deshaun-watson-trade-texans-nfl-fmia-peter-king/

 

Over the weekend, two common themes emerged about Houston’s near future. One: The Texans have one untouchable player, Watson, as of now. Two: Houston is not only not interested in trading Watson but also not interested in listening to offers for him. At least two teams have given offers to Houston and gotten zero feedback. Like, no reaction, no “We’ll get back to you.” Nothing.

Surely rookie GM Nick Caserio is gathering said offers in a Stickie on his desktop, or in some encrypted Word file. He knows one day he might have to act on one of them. I’m told he’s categorically opposed to trading Watson, period—either in the next nine weeks before the draft (when he’d clearly get the best deal to start the Texans’ post-Watson lives) or ever. It’s easy to say that, of course, when the deadline is far away. It’s easy to say that too, when you know that trading a 25-year-old franchise quarterback is crazy, and when fresh in the memory of all Houston fans is the warm-and-fuzzy press conference just 24 weeks ago when a grateful and emotional Watson was so thrilled to sign a $156-million contract extension with the Texans.

No one knows who will fold, who will stay strong. Caserio and owner Cal McNair have never been in the eye of a storm like this one. Watson, the friendly and guileless great player, has never had to make a decision as weighty as sitting out an offseason and maybe a season.

I think Caserio is playing it right, at least for now. The message is out there: Houston’s not even listening to offers. Maybe they’re serious about sitting on Watson. But Caserio also has to be cognizant of asking 53 players he doesn’t know—perhaps prepping for the season in the same virtual and fairly impersonal world that 2020 was—to take the field in 2021 with the worst team in the league, perhaps quarterbacked by an A.J. McCarron type. The results would be disastrous and could rip the team asunder even worse than it is now. J.J. Watt’s already jumped ship. Who would be next? Who, I should say, of any value?

   

So if Watson continues to say he won’t play for the Texans, Caserio would be able to make his best deal in the days before the April 29 first round. Below are the best candidates, keeping in mind teams cannot trade draft picks beyond 2023 right now, and keeping in mind how draft-poor the Texans are. Houston has no first-round or second-round pick this year, and isn’t scheduled to pick till number 67 in round three.

• CAROLINA PANTHERS. I’d be surprised if the Panthers hadn’t made an offer by now, quite frankly. This is a fit in many ways. Very aggressive new owner (David Tepper), who would move mountains for a franchise QB. It’s not in the AFC, meaning Houston wouldn’t have to see Watson in the playoffs till the Super Bowl. (That would be a Belichick factor.) Because the Panthers are not flush with draft capital, I think they’d have to include a quarterback with some value and at least two very good veteran players. By the way: Cal McNair, I’m sure, would also love the fact that, if the NFL’s scheduling formula stays the same, Watson as a Panther would not play in Houston till the 2027 regular season. Cross-conference matchups happen every four years, meaning Carolina, which played at Houston in 2019, would host the Texans in 2023 and play at Houston in 2027. But that’s pretty low in the pecking order of factors in this trade. Very low.

Peter King Proposal: A 7-for-1 deal. Running back Christian McCaffrey, quarterback Teddy Bridgewater, receiver Robbie Anderson and first-round and second-round picks in 2021 (eighth and 39th overall), a first-round pick in 2022 and third-round pick in 2023 in exchange for Watson. Houston might push for the inclusion of 22-year-old pass-rusher Brian Burns as a vital part of any deal, which would be a tough giveaway for coach Matt Rhule. Of course, McCaffrey would be tough too.

• NEW YORK JETS. GM Joe Douglas is a big home-grown advocate, and I believe New York would chafe at doing a mega-pick deal for Watson because too many dyed-in-the-wool scouts there believe in building the team through the draft. But so many of the ingredients are there. The Jets would be able to jettison a quarterback with some interesting value, along with the second overall pick plus a trove of draft currency.

Peter King Proposal: A 6-for-1 deal. Quarterback Sam Darnold, defensive lineman Quinnen Williams, first-round picks in 2021 (second overall) and 2022 (the higher of New York’s two first-round picks), plus second-round picks in 2021 (34th overall) and 2023 in exchange for Watson. Caserio could turn the second overall pick this year into another ransom. But I’m just skeptical that Douglas would make this move. Obviously, he’d be thrilled to get Watson. But he knows he has a crummy overall roster and denuding his looming drafts I believe is too much for him to accept. One other factor here: With Houston in some cap trouble and the Jets with a monstrous $68 million in cap space per Jason Fitzgerald of Over The Cap, the Texans could ask the Jets to take the guaranteed $10.5-million 2020 contract of fading edge rusher Whitney Mercilus.

• SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS. San Francisco would be okay with entering 2021 with Jimmy Garoppolo as its starter. But no matter what Kyle Shanahan and John Lynch say, they can’t be totally comfortable with it. Garoppolo has missed 23 of the last 48 regular-season games with injuries. (Tom Brady has missed 15 games due to injury in 20 seasons.) And I’ll always wonder if the 49ers have the tiniest bit of buyer’s remorse for not putting the trigger on a deal with Brady last March. We’ll know when Brady (or Lynch or Shanahan) write a book in 15 years how close that came. But if the Niners could convince Garoppolo to waive his no-trade clause, I could see San Francisco being all in here, even though the Niners clearly would have to part with some major assets, perhaps including the young nerve center of their defense. Linebacker Fred Warner is such a rising star, however, that his re-signing in San Francisco in the next 12 months might affect the franchise’s ability to keep other great young players (Nick Bosa?) in house.

Or . . .

• SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS/MINNESOTA VIKINGS. This is centered on the premise that San Francisco would not want to rip apart a team and a future, and might be willing to take a lesser deal for a quarterback Shanahan has long admired. And also that Caserio, in the heart of the draft room in 2014 when the Patriots made Garoppolo a second-round pick, would want to try again with Jimmy G. It’s a wing and a prayer, but fascinating to me.

Peter King Proposal: The Vikings send quarterback Kirk Cousins to San Francisco. The Niners send Garoppolo to Houston, if, of course, he’d waive his no-trade. The Texans send Watson to Minnesota. In return: the Niners send their first-round pick in 2021 (12th overall) to Houston, and they’re out. (So San Francisco would be trading Garoppolo and a one to Houston and getting Cousins with two years left on his contract.) The Vikings would send linebacker Anthony Barr and running back Alexander Mattison plus their first-round picks in 2021 (14th overall) and 2023, and second-round picks in 2022 and 2023 in exchange for Watson. Houston’s haul: Garoppolo, two ones this year, a one in 2023, and two second-round picks.

 

 

• MIAMI DOLPHINS. You’d hear a big, loud, “We’re not trading Tua if the Dolphins weren’t at least pondering Watson.” Why wouldn’t they be? It’s extremely hard, after seeing one year of Tua Tagovailoa, to think his mega-upside would equal the 2021 Watson. It’s logical to at least look into it.

Peter King Proposal: Miami trades defensive end Christian Wilkins, quarterback Tua Tagovailoa, first-round picks in 2021 (third overall) and 2023, and second-round picks in 2021 and 2022 for Watson. In essence, Miami is trading the 13th overall pick in 2019 (Wilkins) and the fifth overall pick in 2020 (Tagovailoa), plus two ones and two twos for Watson. Advantage for Miami is the deal would leave the Dolphins with first-round and second-round picks this year and their first next year while giving them a quarterback to play on equal footing with Josh Allen in the AFC East for the next decade.

• THE OTHERS: Denver does have the ninth pick plus some good young pieces (Garett Bolles?) to offer, and a quarterback with minimal value in Drew Lock, so don’t count new GM George Paton out . . . Chicago would certainly be interested, but drafting 20th this year is a big negative, with no QB other than Nick Foles to deal; the lack of significant young talent to package is a negative too . . . Washington is intriguing because of its strong young defense, but WFT might have to trade off too much of what makes it an attractive future team—Chase Young and another promising youngster—a well as its three or four very high picks. Not impossible, but a major challenge, and I bet Houston would have better offers.

I can hear many of you now: Price tag’s too steep! You’re crazy! I’m not. If Watson gets traded, it’s going to have to include a gigantic package, maybe the highest price ever paid for a player in league history. It’s justified. Twenty-five-year-old franchise quarterbacks never come on the market. But the price isn’t for everyone. It may not be for the Jets.

If I’m Caserio, calming the waters now is the best plan. Over the next two months, you want to try every way you think might work to rebuild a bridge with Watson. But if it gets to the point that you can’t by late April, that’s when the best offers will be out there. Carolina might be the best option, willing to do the most to get Watson. The Tepper factor tells me that. After the draft, if the Texans still have Watson, there’s a danger of sitting on him and having a nightmare cloud over the franchise’s head—as if there’s not already one there.

4. I think there were these interesting nuggets from Mel Kiper and Todd McShay on their Field Yates-hosted ESPN draft podcast the other day:

a. McShay has a counterintuitive order of quarterbacks at the top of the draft: Trevor Lawrence, Zach Wilson, Trey Lance, Justin Fields. “It’s Lawrence one, gap, Wilson two, gap, then the next quarterbacks, Lance and Fields,” he said.

b. When I told one NFL personnel man who is scouting quarterbacks heavily the McShay 1 through 4, he said: “Three of those four will be taken in the first four picks. The Eagles [at six] will be lucky to have a good one fall to them.”

c. Lance over Fields is the big surprise there, obviously, particularly after Fields ravaged Clemson and Lawrence in the playoffs in January.

d. McShay likes a fifth quarterback, Mac Jones of Alabama, to land in round one.

e. Kiper’s number five overall player is a tight end, Florida’s Kyle Pitts. It’s the first time in 43 years—if Pitts doesn’t fall below five overall—that Kiper will have had a tight end in his top five players on his final board.

f. “The Giants are as far as [Pitts] will drop,” Kiper said. New York picks 11.

g. Big battle for the top corner between rangy Caleb Farley, who opted out of his last season at Virginia Tech, and Alabama’s Patrick Surtain, son of the former NFLer. Kiper could see Farley being the top corner picked.

[Sperm Edwards]

On 2/21/2021 at 5:52 AM, Flea Flicking Frank said:

You either have a bit of a hard time comprehending, or you twist what I write for the sake of arguing. Are you a lawyer by any chance?

let me try to sum this up for you. I think Watson is good. I think paying him and trading 3-4 first round picks, one being 2 overall which is worth a lot of draft capital by itself, is way too much. I think fields has more upside than Watson, by no means does that mean I think he has a more promising future. But I think when I look at all the possible ways this can play out, I think the jets future has a far higher probability of being better by trading back a few slots and grabbing fields than paying am absurd price for a good qb who just proved without a really good roster sound him, isn’t going to win. Twist away.

I comprehend it just fine. There is no mythical good or great qb that makes a train wreck of a roster like Houston into a SB winner (let alone with 10 games against playoff teams). In his prime Drew Brees QB'd a losing team 4 out of 5 seasons; one of which was even in a season where no team in the division was even .500. Rodgers recently QB'd a 6-win team despite throwing just 2 picks. Those Saints/Packers teams were were all with noticeably more help than Watson had (one offensive lineman and 14 games surrendering 25+ pts). 

So to conveniently and simplistically put the Texans' 4-win season all on Watson not being a good enough QB - as though anyone else was going to lift them into anything either - I find absurd. Still more absurd while whining about the necessity of every extra draft pick to build this team, as though Fields plus a couple extra later + future 1st round draft picks alone would automatically make the Jets demonstrably better. 

Can the Jets build a winner without such a transaction? Of course, and no one says otherwise. No one denies the team would be better off if they drafted Fields, he became Watson Part II, and they kept all their draft picks in the process.

The problem is that's far from a certainty - he might be Watson II and also might end up being a tougher/more-mobile Josh Rosen Part II or closer to the latter than the former. Until he's given a couple NFL seasons you don't know which you got; you don't get to then trade for a Watson 2-3 years later if it turns out you guessed wrong; and you'll have eaten up 2-3 years of those precious picks' rookie deals (on top of the remainder of the rookie deals from QW, Becton, Mims, etc.).

[Sperm Edwards]

21 hours ago, johnnysd said:

lol people really forget just how good Namath was

And people who take this stance really forget just how much of Namath's born talent never saw the light of day, because of the combination of him being an oft-drunk (including the night before games) and that scumbag Bear Bryant not giving a crap if his teenage & early-20s players, like Namath, lived most of their adult lives as cripples.

He was a better natural talent than Watson, but most of his career was instead a story of what-might-have-been. 

[Dinamite]

58 minutes ago, derp said:

Peter King’s suggested cost: picks 2 and 34, the higher of the Jets’ first round picks in 2022, a second round pick in 2023, Quinnen Williams, and Sam Darnold.

He also posited a) Douglas may prefer to build through the draft and b) another variable could be the Jets’ ability to take on some contracts from Houston (i.e. Mercilus).

His price for the jets seemed higher than for other teams.

[T0mShane]

46 minutes ago, Marshmello said:

Peter King Proposal: A 6-for-1 deal. Quarterback Sam Darnold, defensive lineman Quinnen Williams, first-round picks in 2021 (second overall) and 2022 (the higher of New York’s two first-round picks), plus second-round picks in 2021 (34th overall) and 2023 in exchange for Watson. Caserio could turn the second overall pick this year into another ransom. But I’m just skeptical that Douglas would make this move. Obviously, he’d be thrilled to get Watson. But he knows he has a crummy overall roster and denuding his looming drafts I believe is too much for him to accept. One other factor here: With Houston in some cap trouble and the Jets with a monstrous $68 million in cap space per Jason Fitzgerald of Over The Cap, the Texans could ask the Jets to take the guaranteed $10.5-million 2020 contract of fading edge rusher Whitney Mercilus.

It’s really sad how Peter King just kinda stopped working in 2017 but people keep paying him to say stuff like this anyway

[T0mShane]

51 minutes ago, Marshmello said:

4. I think there were these interesting nuggets from Mel Kiper and Todd McShay on their Field Yates-hosted ESPN draft podcast the other day:

a. McShay has a counterintuitive order of quarterbacks at the top of the draft: Trevor Lawrence, Zach Wilson, Trey Lance, Justin Fields. “It’s Lawrence one, gap, Wilson two, gap, then the next quarterbacks, Lance and Fields,” he said.

b. When I told one NFL personnel man who is scouting quarterbacks heavily the McShay 1 through 4, he said: “Three of those four will be taken in the first four picks. The Eagles [at six] will be lucky to have a good one fall to them.”

c. Lance over Fields is the big surprise there, obviously, particularly after Fields ravaged Clemson and Lawrence in the playoffs in January.

d. McShay likes a fifth quarterback, Mac Jones of Alabama, to land in round one.

e. Kiper’s number five overall player is a tight end, Florida’s Kyle Pitts. It’s the first time in 43 years—if Pitts doesn’t fall below five overall—that Kiper will have had a tight end in his top five players on his final board.

f. “The Giants are as far as [Pitts] will drop,” Kiper said. New York picks 11.

g. Big battle for the top corner between rangy Caleb Farley, who opted out of his last season at Virginia Tech, and Alabama’s Patrick Surtain, son of the former NFLer. Kiper could see Farley being the top corner picked.

Like, look at this. He just filled up 200 words of his column recapping a dumb Todd McShay/Mel Kiper segment. This is what King is reduced to. 

[Beerfish]

1 hour ago, derp said:

Peter King’s suggested cost: picks 2 and 34, the higher of the Jets’ first round picks in 2022, a second round pick in 2023, Quinnen Williams, and Sam Darnold.

He also posited a) Douglas may prefer to build through the draft and b) another variable could be the Jets’ ability to take on some contracts from Houston (i.e. Mercilus).

Ridiculous price, I hope douglas is not stupid enough to even think about such a thing.

[Snook]

On 2/21/2021 at 7:21 AM, Dunnie said:

Errrr Texans

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using JetNation.com mobile app
 

Well the Houston Oilers did become the Tennessee Titans. 

[Dunnie]

Ridiculous price, I hope douglas is not stupid enough to even think about such a thing.

Peter King plays Madden before writing his articles.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using JetNation.com mobile app

[greenwichjetfan]

12 hours ago, DetroitRed said:

His production is the best way to judge him.  You think number of franchises is a better way? I’m not vouching for his character, so you can use that argument all day long. Name 10 WRs with better PRODUCTION over the last 6 years.  Can’t do it

Peyton, Montana, Namath, Brady, Favre, J Rice, R Moss, L Tomlinson, etc etc etc.....all should be irrelevant because a franchise dumped them/shipped them!!

[heymangold]

That Peter King proposal is INSANE.  IMO giving up #2 shouldn’t need to give up 23 as well. Giving up 2, 23 and 34 is insane. 

[Greenseed4]

Even if a team (not named MIA) traded a bounty of picks & players to HOU, the Texans would need to parlay some of their comp to get up to #2 if they want the second best QB in the draft (whoever that is). 

[Dunnie]

That Peter King proposal is INSANE.  IMO giving up #2 shouldn’t need to give up 23 as well. Giving up 2, 23 and 34 is insane. 

As we old timers used to say "**** Peter Kung and his NE agenda"

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using JetNation.com mobile app

[greenwichjetfan]

37 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I comprehend it just fine. There is no mythical good or great qb that makes a train wreck of a roster like Tampa into a SB winner (let alone with 10 games against playoff teams). In his prime Drew Brees QB'd a losing team 4 out of 5 seasons; one of which was even in a season where no team in the division was even .500. Rodgers' recently QB'd a 6-win team. They were all with noticeably more help than Watson had (one offensive lineman and 14 games surrendering 25+ pts). 

So conveniently and simplistically putting the Texans' season all on Watson not being a good enough QB - as though anyone else was going to lift them into anything either - I find absurd.

Completely agree. On the flipside though, it's also absurd to think that the same QB can come to an even worse roster and "be the tide that lifts all boats". 

Again, I'm all for trading for Watson for the right price. I love him as a player and as a person. He's the exact kind of person you want to lead your franchise for the next decade. But some of these logic pfails and absurd comments about his price should be addressed. 

[JohnnyLV]

44 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

And people who take this stance really forget just how much of Namath's born talent never saw the light of day, because of the combination of him being an oft-drunk (including the night before games) and that scumbag Bear Bryant not giving a crap if his teenage & early-20s players, like Namath, lived most of their adult lives as cripples.

He was a better natural talent than Watson, but most of his career was instead a story of what-might-have-been. 

That's certainly true. In the modern day NFL Joe would have had good knees and would dominate this league. Even cripple Namath is way better than Watson.

[Sperm Edwards]

3 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Completely agree. On the flipside though, it's also absurd to think that the same QB can come to an even worse roster and "be the tide that lifts all boats". 

Again, I'm all for trading for Watson for the right price. I love him as a player and as a person. He's the exact kind of person you want to lead your franchise for the next decade. But some of these logic pfails and absurd comments about his price should be addressed. 

I don't see why people assume the 2021 Jets will be the 2020 Jets Part II.

• The 2020 rookies won't be rookies anymore
• The 2021 Jets are unlikely to field a WR corps as bad, nor an OL as bad, nor will they look as bad when they're on the field anyway due to the disparity from 2021 Watson vs 2020 Darnold
• The 2021 Jets are not going to be coached/coordinated by Adam Gase on offense, nor by Gregg Williams on defense
• The 2021 Jets will have its $17MM ILB returning, its #3 pick DT playing like a #3 pick right from the start, and aren't going to trade one of its only 2 good veteran starters in July for future draft picks.
• I know bitonti expects it because of his conspiracy theory stuff and made-up "facts" but the Jets aren't losing their expiring contract FAs only to acquire Watson & then sit on the remaining $70MM or more in cap room heading into the draft. No one does that, and any suspected frugality in that regard becomes even less likely when the team has just traded away a haul of 1st round picks. 

They will be two very different teams. It doesn't take 3-4 years to rebuild, even from 2020's rock bottom.

[Alka]

1 hour ago, Marshmello said:

Peter King Proposal: A 6-for-1 deal. Quarterback Sam Darnold, defensive lineman Quinnen Williams, first-round picks in 2021 (second overall) and 2022 (the higher of New York’s two first-round picks), plus second-round picks in 2021 (34th overall) and 2023 in exchange for Watson. Caserio could turn the second overall pick this year into another ransom. But I’m just skeptical that Douglas would make this move. Obviously, he’d be thrilled to get Watson. But he knows he has a crummy overall roster and denuding his looming drafts I believe is too much for him to accept. One other factor here: With Houston in some cap trouble and the Jets with a monstrous $68 million in cap space per Jason Fitzgerald of Over The Cap, the Texans could ask the Jets to take the guaranteed $10.5-million 2020 contract of fading edge rusher Whitney Mercilus.

What's fascinating about this proposal by Peter King is that he actually says here that "I'm just skeptical that Douglas would make this move."  

Damn, if Peter King is skeptical that Douglas would agree with this trade, then why offer it to begin with?

Why doesn't Peter King use whatever brains that he has, and offer something that he believes that Douglas would agree with?  I could propose many, many trades that I don't believe other teams would accept, so why would I make those opinions public, If I don't think that other teams would consider them?

Such a waste of time to read a trade proposal that the person offering the trade idea doesn't think that it could happen!  What a jerk Peter King is!

[Sperm Edwards]

14 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

That's certainly true. In the modern day NFL Joe would have had good knees and would dominate this league. Even cripple Namath is way better than Watson.

Lol ok. Not just better, but way better. Sure he was, along with the mythical idea that no one ever completed a forward pass without turning it over until the WCO was implemented in SF.

Never mind that only one plays with modern-day scrutiny, where it's badly overlooked how many times Namath's turnovers unnecessarily took would-be wins and turned them into losses, whereby 40-50 years later it's made out like that never happened. 

He had a cannon arm. More often passes from that cannon arm ended up in an opponents' hands than in one of his own receivers' hands in the end zone. And those gaudy early stats further came mostly against the AFL teams that so often had to get by with the NFL's leftovers. 

I also don't think it's purely coincidental that, after the merger when AFL teams weren't just taking those leftovers, he never again repeated those 3000-4000 yard early seasons. The competition got better and his numbers got worse in the process, even when he wasn't missing most of the season.

Cripple Namath (or cripple anybody) way better than Watson. Lol. 

[T0mShane]

29 minutes ago, heymangold said:

That Peter King proposal is INSANE.  IMO giving up #2 shouldn’t need to give up 23 as well. Giving up 2, 23 and 34 is insane. 

Go to one of those mock draft websites, make those picks for the Jets, then explain why you would turn down Deshaun Watson for, say, Zack Wilson, Alex Leatherwood, and the fifth-ranked CB on the board. Picks are cool and all, but those picks become players, and you have to determine that those three players are worth more than Deshaun Watson.

[T0mShane]

14 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

don't see why people assume the 2021 Jets will be the 2020 Jets Part II.

I’ve heard for two years that Adam Gase was the worst coach in NFL history, but now he’s gone and the team is still going to be terrible because there’s no talent? It feels as though guys like @greenwichjetfan should apologize to Gase for slandering him.

[Columbia Jet Fan]

36 minutes ago, Dinamite said:

His price for the jets seemed higher than for other teams.

Right?? 

I actually think the Dolphins one is in the ball park and as I imagine if he gets traded it will be likely to NYJ or Miami maybe its a moot point, but if you look at the offers - the Jets are offering: 

Two 1s in two years (including #2 overall) 

Two 2s (including 34 overall this year)

Darnold + QW. 

Lets compare that to Carolina as they seem to be the team mentioned the most outside of Miami/NYJ

Two 1s in two years (including #8 overall) 

Second round this year

2023 Third Round Pick 

Teddy, Robby, and Christian McCaffery

Doing a little algebra here. 

Our #2 overall = 2600 draft points, Carolinas first two picks this year are worth 1910 draft points. If Carolinas 1 next year is worth one round less this year - that puts it at ~500 points - lets give them that value (although one may say its worse than that as Carolina will likely be better - but whatever). They are still short 190 points. Carolinas 3rd rounder THIS YEAR is worth 225 points, so lets say all of Carolinas draft value in PKs trade is worth #2. FWIW Chad Reuter of nfl.com projected a trade up with NYJ for Carolina in his mock and said that Carolina would have to trade 8, first rounder next year, plus 3 & 4 this year, plus a third rounder next year. So we're basically saying Carolinas 3 & 4 = 2nd rounder this year - which it doesn't on the draft value - 2 is worth more - and that Carolinas 2023 3rd rounder =2022 2nd rounder - it doesn't but this way it helps the case. 

The remainder is Jets second rounder this year, second rounder next year, AND FIRST ROUNDER next year, plus Darnold (call him a second this year), plus QW = Teddy Bridgewater, Robby Anderson, and Christian McCafferey. I mean, this isn't even close in my eyes. I personally think if we traded QW we would get two 1sts for him. He is a stud inside pass rusher with 3 years remaining on his rookie deal and was hyped as one of the top prospects in recent years. Darnold and Teddy you can debate about all day who is better now but I think most would agree that Darnold has more value at the moment given his contract. Robby Anderson apparently was worth a 4th in 2019 but for arguments sake: 

Teddy = Darnold - cross them out 

Robby is worth next years Jets second rounder - or the equivalent of a third this year. 

That still leaves Jets #34 overall, Jets 1st next year + Quinnen Williams for Christian McCafferey. I wouldn't trade Quinnen for McCafferey straight up, and I'm pretty sure every NFL analyst would agree with that - so basically the Jets have to overpay by at minimum #34 this year, and next year's first just so Houston would be in a better position to draft their next franchise QB?? Makes zero sense. 

 

 

 

[T0mShane]

I, too, feel like the key to understanding whether or not Deshaun Watson is elite lies in determining how good Brandin Cooks and Chad Hansen *really* are

[greenwichjetfan]

38 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't see why people assume the 2021 Jets will be the 2020 Jets Part II.

• The 2020 rookies won't be rookies anymore - Fine, but outside of Bechton, who are we actually looking at to be so much better? I can see the argument for Mims and Hall, but who else? Davis might have an outside shot? Just advancing a year in the league doesn't make you any better - rookie or not. We as Jets fans should know that by now. 
• The 2021 Jets are unlikely to field a WR corps as bad, nor an OL as bad, nor will they look as bad when they're on the field anyway due to the disparity from 2021 Watson vs 2020 Darnold - Fine, but that goes against the assertion that Deshaun alone is good enough to give up 5+ picks for because he immediately makes his teammates better. Going out and picking up Robinson or JuJu are separate transactions from Deshaun's which should in theory make any QB better. 
• The 2021 Jets are not going to be coached/coordinated by Adam Gase on offense, nor by Gregg Williams on defense - As some might know by now, I had only Adam Gase on my "Do not touch" list in 2019, and have been proven right every minute since the hire. I agree wholeheartedly that this alone will make the team better, but again, this is separate from Deshaun's deal. 
• The 2021 Jets will have its $17MM ILB returning, its #3 pick DT playing like a #3 pick right from the start, and aren't going to trade one of its only 2 good veteran starters in July for future draft picks. I have absolutely no faith in a CJ Mosley who last played more than a half of football in 2018. Could he be great? Sure - but that's a big could. And I love QW and definitely don't want him traded away. Again, this is separate from Deshaun's deal. 
• I know bitonti expects it because of his conspiracy theory stuff and made-up "facts" but the Jets aren't losing their expiring contract FAs only to acquire Watson & then sit on the remaining $70MM or more in cap room heading into the draft. No one does that, and any suspected frugality in that regard becomes even less likely when the team has just traded away a haul of 1st round picks. Bit has his thoughts which he's made very clear over the years both here and at JI. I don't necessarily agree with them, but then again he's not exactly wrong simply from a historical standpoint. Either way, I don't really have much to comment here.

They will be two very different teams. It doesn't take 3-4 years to rebuild, even from 2020's rock bottom.

Thanks. My comments in red above.

Separately, I never said the '21 Jets will be the '20 Jets part 2. I'm saying that most of what you've put above is fair, but it's all separate from the Deshaun deal. The Jets will be better no matter what. It's hard not to go up from 2 wins and the worst HC in Jets history.

I was simply refuting the comments all over the board that Deshaun could come to this team and his mere presence would make the current Jets roster better. It's been stated multiple times, and it's incorrect. 

Lastly, I think I am a little biased because I love Fields. I think he's going to be the real deal - so for me, it's about weighting the difference between Fields on a rookie deal and all of these premium picks that JD has accumulated vs. Watson, a few FAs, and hoping the rest of the team just automatically becomes better.

I'm still struggling to determine what the right price would be for Deshaun. I like the idea of taking on a few bad contracts from the Texans in exchange for lowering the price for Deshaun, but practically I'm not sure the Texans will afford us that luxury. I think at the moment, I'd be ok with giving up this year's 1.02, both of this year's Jamal picks (first and third rounders), and our second rounder next year which could conditionally become a first rounder if Deshaun plays 80%+ snaps and the team makes the playoffs. No players from our end, no other commitments past this year. But that's a moving target.