JN 7 part film review 2 years ago - why Tannehill held Gase back

[Hokiejets]

Jet Nation had a 7 part film review of how bad Tannehill was, and why Darnold would thrive under Gase:

:https://www.jetnation.com/2019/01/28/adam-gases-offense-ryan-tannehill-held-him-back-ny-jets-film-review/

I remember reading it and it was the only way I could get excited about the hire.

 

Is it me, or did this play itself out with Darnold the exact same way?

[Maxman]

50 minutes ago, Hokiejets said:

Jet Nation had a 7 part film review of how bad Tannehill was, and why Darnold would thrive under Gase:

:https://www.jetnation.com/2019/01/28/adam-gases-offense-ryan-tannehill-held-him-back-ny-jets-film-review/

I remember reading it and it was the only way I could get excited about the hire.

 

Is it me, or did this play itself out with Darnold the exact same way?

Hey thanks for signing up.  This does seem to have played out the same way for sure.  

The interesting thing is Ryan T had a decent start before Gase got a hold of him. So I worry about Sam, how much permanent damage was done and if he will be able to bounce back.

I like the kid a lot, so I am hoping he can do it. But it is scary because Gase ruins things.

[win4ever]

Ah I had so much hope then.  Unfortunately it didn't pan out.  

[T0mShane]

12 minutes ago, Maxman said:

Hey thanks for signing up.  This does seem to have played out the same way for sure.  

The interesting thing is Ryan T had a decent start before Gase got a hold of him. So I worry about Sam, how much permanent damage was done and if he will be able to bounce back.

I like the kid a lot, so I am hoping he can do it. But it is scary because Gase ruins things.

The Dolphins were 13-11 under Gase in the rare instances where Tannehill was healthy. Tannehill made only 24 out of a possible 48 starts during Gase’s Miami tenure. 

[Hokiejets]

It’s not so much how this take didn’t happen and the obvious anguish caused... it’s the way the plays break down.

it’s like the play seems to be designed to do something, but in both cases the QB doesn’t execute.

missed open receivers, forced balls when the coverage isn’t conducive.

I get why it could break Darnold, and I was done after the season with him, but the cerebral coaching just seems to be non-existent. Like Gase laid it all out and expected the QB to be Peyton Manning.

In both cases, rarely did the offense seem in synch. Good players were ghosts, and the QB looked lost.

Was hoping someone could tell me what the difference is, as a casual fan and watcher of these videos it looked the same.

 

 

[Jetsfan80]

  

22 minutes ago, Maxman said:

Hey thanks for signing up.  This does seem to have played out the same way for sure.  

The interesting thing is Ryan T had a decent start before Gase got a hold of him. So I worry about Sam, how much permanent damage was done and if he will be able to bounce back.

I like the kid a lot, so I am hoping he can do it. But it is scary because Gase ruins things.

 

Or, looking at it another way, Sam Darnold helped get two different coaching staffs and a GM fired.  

Tread cautiously, JD and Saleh.

[win4ever]

1 minute ago, Hokiejets said:

It’s not so much how this take didn’t happen and the obvious anguish caused... it’s the way the plays break down.

it’s like the play seems to be designed to do something, but in both cases the QB doesn’t execute.

missed open receivers, forced balls when the coverage isn’t conducive.

I get why it could break Darnold, and I was done after the season with him, but the cerebral coaching just seems to be non-existent. Like Gase laid it all out and expected the QB to be Peyton Manning.

In both cases, rarely did the offense seem in synch. Good players were ghosts, and the QB looked lost.

Was hoping someone could tell me what the difference is, as a casual fan and watcher of these videos it looked the same.

 

 

The issue stems from Gase designing the plays, but it doesn't seem like he did well to actually make the reads easier for the QB.  In a vacuum, the plays would be fine but he made it complicated enough that the QBs (aside from seasoned veterans) seem to struggle with the reads.  

I don't think the play design was the main issue, I think it was the lack of being able to develop a QB by making the reads easier.  

[rangerous]

there are similar film clips showing where darnold misses the read on the wide open receiver and opts for a more risky or much shorter pass.  there was no problem with gases plays.  it was all about execution.  i'm not saying launching gase was wrong because a head coach has to be more than x's and o's but some of the criticism was totally wrong.

[T0mShane]

3 minutes ago, win4ever said:

The issue stems from Gase designing the plays, but it doesn't seem like he did well to actually make the reads easier for the QB.  In a vacuum, the plays would be fine but he made it complicated enough that the QBs (aside from seasoned veterans) seem to struggle with the reads.  

I don't think the play design was the main issue, I think it was the lack of being able to develop a QB by making the reads easier.  

Part of it, too, is that Darnold played QB for three years of his life prior to coming to the NFL (senior year of high school, two years at USC) and iirc Tannehill was a WR at TAMU until halfway through his junior year. Gase was molding raw clay in both cases.

[Hokiejets]

4 minutes ago, rangerous said:

there are similar film clips showing where darnold misses the read on the wide open receiver and opts for a more risky or much shorter pass.  there was no problem with gases plays.  it was all about execution.  i'm not saying launching gase was wrong because a head coach has to be more than x's and o's but some of the criticism was totally wrong.

So 2 QB’s and multiple other offensive players get brought back to life after Gase leaves and the execution problem isn’t on Gase?

Other than Manning, the guy has never had success.

when you see the pattern repeated, it’s on the constant in the equation.

[win4ever]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

Part of it, too, is that Darnold played QB for three years of his life prior to coming to the NFL (senior year of high school, two years at USC) and iirc Tannehill was a WR at TAMU until halfway through his junior year. Gase was molding raw clay in both cases.

Possibly, I felt he didn't take advantage of changes to help out a QB. 

Less motion to understand defensive shells, which created an issue with post-snap reads.  Part of it is the personnel, especially the lack of protection, but he also needed to make adjustments.  It felt like he never changed the game plan once the scripts fell through.  With Tannehill, what they did was really take the brunt of the offense of his plate in TN.  Featured Henry, then put Tannehill as the complimentary QB and it worked wonders.  

It'll be interesting to see how it fares with Saleh.  One thing for sure is they need more OL.  

[genot]

40 minutes ago, Maxman said:

Hey thanks for signing up.  This does seem to have played out the same way for sure.  

The interesting thing is Ryan T had a decent start before Gase got a hold of him. So I worry about Sam, how much permanent damage was done and if he will be able to bounce back.

I like the kid a lot, so I am hoping he can do it. But it is scary because Gase ruins things.

Darnold knew Gase was dogsh..He played the good soldier. The one time he disobeyed the QB whisperer was two years ago, when he committed the cardinal sin of changing the play at the line. Result. Long touchdown reception to Anderson. Remember.

[dcJet]

The NFL wasn't ready for Gase's offense yet.

[FidelioJet]

How you end up with one of the worst offenses in the history of the league is when you have the trifecta of bad.

No talent, bad coaching and bad QB play.

It can be and was all three.  That's what we witnessed this past season.

 

[UntouchableCrew]

1 hour ago, win4ever said:

Possibly, I felt he didn't take advantage of changes to help out a QB. 

Less motion to understand defensive shells, which created an issue with post-snap reads.  Part of it is the personnel, especially the lack of protection, but he also needed to make adjustments.  It felt like he never changed the game plan once the scripts fell through.  With Tannehill, what they did was really take the brunt of the offense of his plate in TN.  Featured Henry, then put Tannehill as the complimentary QB and it worked wonders.  

It'll be interesting to see how it fares with Saleh.  One thing for sure is they need more OL.  

I mean, that's what this is really about. Modern offenses have adapted schemes and styles (with a lot of those concepts coming from college ball) that minimize what is put on the QB. It simplifies things, makes their reads easier and allows them to play faster.

Darnold was put into an old school Peyton Manning offense that required a seasoned field general.

I'm sure if Darnold was put into a "QB friendly offense" he could be Jared Goff. The concern is that 1) the damage is done and 2) do we even want a Jared Goff when we have the 2nd overall pick?

[LionelRichie]

6 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I mean, that's what this is really about. Modern offenses have adapted schemes and styles (with a lot of those concepts coming from college ball) that minimize what is put on the QB. It simplifies things, makes their reads easier and allows them to play faster.

Darnold was put into an old school Peyton Manning offense that required a seasoned field general.

I'm sure if Darnold was put into a "QB friendly offense" he could be Jared Goff. The concern is that 1) the damage is done and 2) do we even want a Jared Goff when we have the 2nd overall pick?

The irony of course is that Goff was the 1st pick and Wentz went 2 and is also being shipped out of town. 

[rangerous]

2 hours ago, Hokiejets said:

So 2 QB’s and multiple other offensive players get brought back to life after Gase leaves and the execution problem isn’t on Gase?

Other than Manning, the guy has never had success.

when you see the pattern repeated, it’s on the constant in the equation.

Well, if it’s that easy then the jets decision should be to hitch their future to darnold  and just not worry.  From what I understand, tannehill plays in a shanahan system with the Titans.  I’m pretty certain that’s what’s going through saleh and Douglas’ minds right now.

[Hokiejets]

35 minutes ago, rangerous said:

Well, if it’s that easy then the jets decision should be to hitch their future to darnold  and just not worry.  From what I understand, tannehill plays in a shanahan system with the Titans.  I’m pretty certain that’s what’s going through saleh and Douglas’ minds right now.

I don’t think it’s that easy.

And if Douglas thinks there is a better prospect at #2, he has to take them.

I’d still really love to see an all 22 film breakdown on the similarities similar to this original 7 part breakdown.

[BCJet]

There a few reasons why Im worried that its not just the system and that Sam may never improve, mainly his mechanics and the poor interceptions.  But in addition to that, and what this article really hits on, is the pre-snap/post-snap reads. 

There have been a bunch of breakdowns that show how often Sam misses open WRs and mis-reads the defense and it seems like Tannenhill was missing the exact same things and yet in Tennessee does not have that issue at all.  I wonder if part of Gase's problem is that he is coaching his QBs to look at the wrong option first.  He may think hes "perfectly drawn up plays" will have a certain WR open that causes the QB to then miss the guy who actually is open.  Ideally a great QB would see the open player but what this article shows about Tannennhill is eerily similar to the issues Darnold had this season.

[rangerous]

10 hours ago, Hokiejets said:

I don’t think it’s that easy.

And if Douglas thinks there is a better prospect at #2, he has to take them.

I’d still really love to see an all 22 film breakdown on the similarities similar to this original 7 part breakdown.

Yep. That’s my point.

[Ghost420]

16 hours ago, Hokiejets said:

Jet Nation had a 7 part film review of how bad Tannehill was, and why Darnold would thrive under Gase:

:https://www.jetnation.com/2019/01/28/adam-gases-offense-ryan-tannehill-held-him-back-ny-jets-film-review/

I remember reading it and it was the only way I could get excited about the hire.

 

Is it me, or did this play itself out with Darnold the exact same way?

Other than the fact tannehill was still decent under gase when healthy. Darnold just sucks.

[The Crusher]

Hopefully Adam Gase will get another chance to coach a team with a better QB and a solid roster. Personally, glad it’s not hear. Hope the red headed kid is happy on his next team as well. 

[jetophile]

16 hours ago, Hokiejets said:

It’s not so much how this take didn’t happen and the obvious anguish caused... it’s the way the plays break down.

it’s like the play seems to be designed to do something, but in both cases the QB doesn’t execute.

missed open receivers, forced balls when the coverage isn’t conducive.

I get why it could break Darnold, and I was done after the season with him, but the cerebral coaching just seems to be non-existent. Like Gase laid it all out and expected the QB to be Peyton Manning.

In both cases, rarely did the offense seem in synch. Good players were ghosts, and the QB looked lost.

Was hoping someone could tell me what the difference is, as a casual fan and watcher of these videos it looked the same.

 

 

I'll probably get shot for this, but the flipside to that idea is that Gase dumbed him down. What I mean by that is The Chimp was reduced to colored armbands and Mike Piazza because he had close to zero football smarts but Jeremy Bates was pitching hissy fits because Sam Darnold "wasn't writing anything down". In other words, he wasn't listening to him. A lot. I'm going somewhere with this.

It became obvious to me that Sam would go rogue on occasion and ditch the play call when he saw something he liked better, with a much better result. Instead of Gase building on the seeds of this potential knack for improvisation, he forced him to stay on script at all times (*whereas Bowles did not) and intimidated it out of him. It also became obvious to me that Gase didn't trust Sam at all, which in turn made Sam less confident. QB Whisperer, my ass. Adam Gase can tell himself that he's a misunderstood genius and shift blame all he wants - which he did all the time - but all he proved here is that he's an awful inflexible teacher.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that no way in hell is Sam Darnold as dumb as Mark Sanchez. That's why I'm still holding on to a frayed thread of hope for The Boot. It ain't over until the Fat Lady Sings! I'm 110 lbs and I can't sing, but so what, who wants to fight me.

*Yes, I know Todd Bowles's forte is Defense. Bowles let NFL uneducated Sam be NFL uneducated Sam. Gase gave him nothing but chains and he still didn't have any guidance. 

[The Crusher]

50 minutes ago, jetophile said:

I'll probably get shot for this, but the flipside to that idea is that Gase dumbed him down. What I mean by that is The Chimp was reduced to colored armbands and Mike Piazza because he had close to zero football smarts but Jeremy Bates was pitching hissy fits because Sam Darnold "wasn't writing anything down". In other words, he wasn't listening to him. A lot. I'm going somewhere with this.

It became obvious to me that Sam would go rogue on occasion and ditch the play call when he saw something he liked better, with a much better result. Instead of Gase building on the seeds of this potential knack for improvisation, he forced him to stay on script at all times (*whereas Bowles did not) and intimidated it out of him. It also became obvious to me that Gase didn't trust Sam at all, which in turn made Sam less confident. QB Whisperer, my ass. Adam Gase can tell himself that he's a misunderstood genius and shift blame all he wants - which he did all the time - but all he proved here is that he's an awful inflexible teacher.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that no way in hell is Sam Darnold as dumb as Mark Sanchez. That's why I'm still holding on to a frayed thread of hope for The Boot. It ain't over until the Fat Lady Sings! I'm 110 lbs and I can't sing, but so what, who wants to fight me.

*Yes, I know Todd Bowles's forte is Defense. Bowles let NFL uneducated Sam be NFL uneducated Sam. Gase gave him nothing but chains and he still didn't have any guidance. 

That’s a very nicely thought out post. But in the end it’s a pretty vicarious position that our shred of hope for this team is based on Sam being little but smarter than Mark Sanchez. Do I dare counter with Mark is prettier? 

[jetophile]

8 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

That’s a very nicely thought out post. But in the end it’s a pretty vicarious position that our shred of hope for this team is based on Sam being little but smarter than Mark Sanchez. Do I dare counter with Mark is prettier? 

I think he's a lot smarter than The Chimp. Most people are. Looks are subjective. 

[Gangrene]

18 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I mean, that's what this is really about. Modern offenses have adapted schemes and styles (with a lot of those concepts coming from college ball) that minimize what is put on the QB. It simplifies things, makes their reads easier and allows them to play faster.

Darnold was put into an old school Peyton Manning offense that required a seasoned field general.

I'm sure if Darnold was put into a "QB friendly offense" he could be Jared Goff. The concern is that 1) the damage is done and 2) do we even want a Jared Goff when we have the 2nd overall pick?

Good post.

My concern with your number 2) is that there is likely other far worse options than Jared Goffs available  to be picked at no.2. 

At the second pick in the draft which of the available 2021 draft eligible qbs, are not a future Josh Rosen, Sam Darnold, Joey Harrington, David Carr, Vince Young or Matt Leinart  (all top ten picked qbs) ?

Trying to find a Rodgers/Roethlisberger/Ryan clone among the next crop of Jake Lockers, RG3s' and Blake Bortles is luck as well as scouting. 

 

***

Random fact ; There are tons of bust examples out there for every NFL player position but least likely to bust in the first round by position are oline and then cornerback.

Trading down, stacking talent and not selecting a QB is one approach to get back to the playoffs.
The Colts are still a qb away from contending but they are years ahead of us in part due to the picks they got in return from the Jets trading up in 2018.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

22 hours ago, Hokiejets said:

Jet Nation had a 7 part film review of how bad Tannehill was, and why Darnold would thrive under Gase:

:https://www.jetnation.com/2019/01/28/adam-gases-offense-ryan-tannehill-held-him-back-ny-jets-film-review/

I remember reading it and it was the only way I could get excited about the hire.

 

Is it me, or did this play itself out with Darnold the exact same way?

IMO it would be better if it was written out in longhand in 7 volumes of 200 pages each, with no pictures.  

I think that's what people want. I really do.

[UntouchableCrew]

27 minutes ago, Gangrene said:

Good post.

My concern with your number 2) is that there is likely other far worse options than Jared Goffs available  to be picked at no.2. 

At the second pick in the draft which of the available 2021 draft eligible qbs, are not a future Josh Rosen, Sam Darnold, Joey Harrington, David Carr, Vince Young or Matt Leinart  (all top ten picked qbs) ?

Trying to find a Rodgers/Roethlisberger/Ryan clone among the next crop of Jake Lockers, RG3s' and Blake Bortles is luck as well as scouting. 

 

Ultimately this is true, but the reality is the overwhelming majority of starting QBs in the NFL are first round picks. You need to spend premium assets to get a QB and it's the most important position in the game.

To me the question is simple -- if you love Wilson or Fields you take them. If you really don't like them? Then yeah, trade back. Don't take a guy you aren't sold on just because. There's a lot of risk in doing so, however.

 

[GreenFish]

The pattern seems pretty clear. Gase is good at designing plays and getting guys open. He’s terrible at coaching QBs and teaching them how to know where to go with the ball. Gase is fine with veteran QBs who already know how to read defenses. But he’s a disaster with young QBs.

The only difference between Darnold and Tannehill is that Tannehill has had a chance to play QB after being coached by Gase and Tannehill excelled during this time. Darnold will get a chance to QB after being coached by Gase. It’s TBD on if he can excel. I won’t bet on that either way.

[BCJet]

On 2/15/2021 at 4:39 PM, rangerous said:

there are similar film clips showing where darnold misses the read on the wide open receiver and opts for a more risky or much shorter pass.  there was no problem with gases plays.  it was all about execution.  i'm not saying launching gase was wrong because a head coach has to be more than x's and o's but some of the criticism was totally wrong.

Did Darnold miss reads, absolutely, both pre-snap and post-snap.  But to say that it was about execution is simply not looking at the big picture.

Every play is "designed" to work on paper, would any NFL coach draw a blocking scheme and route combination that didnt lead to the QB having time and someone being open?  The problem is that Gase has no feel for personnel or in-game adjustments.  Good coaches attack players, they dont just give out plays on paper and hope they work.  Thats why he Gase is so awful. 

If all you needed was to design plays, then everyone could take Bill Walsh's playbook and be successful.  You need to adapt to the players you have and attack the weak parts of the defense you are playing.  Thats what coaching actually is.