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Building a team doesn’t take a decade


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6 minutes ago, doitny said:

the rebuild is taking so long cause of JDs obsession over the OL. 2 out of 3 of his 1st rd picks went there. he even traded up to get one of them and there is talk he might make it 3 out of 5. 

his biggest mistake was his 1st pick. no not who he picked but picking any OL. he passed on a good WR draft and passed on Lamb, Jeudy, Jefferson, Higgins and Claypool.

and now its Deja Vu all over again. talk of drafting another OT over WR and some even want to wait for rd 2. 

watching how 23 teams (75%) have zero or one drafted OL and made up 10 out of 14 playoff teams including the 2 in the SB its clear the NFL is passing JD by. 

Sounds like you are obsessed with JD drafting O-line LOLOL 😂

Thats all you seem to talk about.

What if Mims ended up being a stud? Or how about this. What if JD DID draft a WR in Rd. 1 like you wanted- but that WR was Mims! Would it really matter? What if half the team wasn't on IR last year and the Jets were actually pushing for the playoffs last year? Or if Zach's development was just a bit quicker than expected and he burst onto the scene his rookie year. 

My point is, the Jets bad record has nothing to do with them drafting O-line early. Whiffing on some key positions in the draft? Sure. Not being able to get key FAs? Maybe. JD is building through the draft and he is building the trenches. Makes sense. He will do it until he gets it right. For the record- he added (and hit on) a WR in Rd. 2 and he added (and hit on) a RB in Rd. 4 last year. And one of his biggest signing this year was a WR- even if it was just to retain Berrios. Point is- he ponied up for a versatile slot WR who has chemistry with Zach. 

ALSO I think you can expect an Edge and WR at #4 and #10 so you can relax! haha

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1 hour ago, peekskill68 said:

The common denominator between JD's poor 2020 draft and good 2021 draft is Adam Gase...

In that case Joe Douglas should be fired for letting adam gase influence him so much.

There is no getting away from basic stupid dumb draft picks like he had in 2020.

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11 minutes ago, slats said:

You can frame it however it makes you happy

I prefer to just state facts.  No need to "frame" anything.  

The upcoming 2022 season simply IS JD's fourth season as the Jets GM.  He'll have been on the job for 36 months this June.

11 minutes ago, slats said:

.....but saying that a guy who’s only overseen two drafts is in his fourth year seems a little disingenuous to me.

He's about to oversee his third draft.  I made it clear that he was hired late in advance of his first season as GM.  

Disingenuous is saying he's "only overseen two drafts" when his third is a few days away, and we're talking about the 2022 season and it's results.

No one is talking about firing JD today.

11 minutes ago, slats said:

The argument that the rebuild started with Saleh has merit, too. Douglas jettisoned Gase and Darnold and started over, just about from scratch. 

Makes little difference really, rebuild is just PR talk for "we're gonna suck because we've managed the organization poorly for years now".

Certainly, those old year's aren't on JD, but he took on their burden when he took on the Job.  

Ultimately, it's up to Ownership.  So far, JD is a loser, his teams have done nothing but lose, and lose badly, throughout his entire tenure.

My biggest point here is that that has to change, and change soon. 

Or he won't get too many more seasons to have his fanbois claim he just got here or just started the rebuild, lol.

Winning cures all. 

Hell, at this point just being mostly competitive week to week would be a massive upswing for this franchise.

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29 minutes ago, Joe W. Namath said:

No, nobody would say JD started the rebuild last week.  That is silly.  We all know that cutting bait with the coach and qb he inherited was the start of the rebuild.  That was 15 months ago.

Its not that difficult to understand fellas.

He is not saying anything crazy. 

This year is really the test. If zack improves, Becton plays, the new draftees look like solid picks and we win 6-7 games at least then joe willy is being patient and he is right. You guys need to give it 7 more months to judge fairly at a minimum

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5 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Every GM works with the HC and their picks are influenced by the needs of the coaching staff and the systems they're running. I don't get why so many people refuse to accept this. It's part of why changing coaching staffs every 3 years is so counter productive. 

Okay, so we do not blame Douglas for year one.

So we give all the credit to Saleh for the 2021 draft.  Good to know.

Poor Idzik, rex took him down with the idzik 12 draft.

'Scheme' does not make you make stupid picks.  2020 was not bad due to scheme, 2020 was bad because bad players were taken at bad times of the draft.

Aligning success of a gms drafting with his coach is a total excuse, and a poor one that that.

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1 hour ago, kmnj said:

seriously what planet do you live on?

His roster is terrible as is his record

Mims is a bust becton was a terrible pick-even casual fans said take wirfs 

Joe tore down a 7 win team and made them a 2 and 4 win team-he is what his record says he is-gm of one of the worst teams in the NFL

how has even-keel , no nonsense and smart translated to performance on the field-it has not-might as well say he is a good eater and has strong facial hair and his head looks like mr clean  

Yeah, tore down a 7 win team.  Lol

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15 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

In that case Joe Douglas should be fired for letting adam gase influence him so much.

There is no getting away from basic stupid dumb draft picks like he had in 2020.

Do you believe Saleh and Lafleur were instrumental in influencing the 2021 draft?

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5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Disingenuous is saying he's "only overseen two drafts" when his third is a few days away, and we're talking about the 2022 season and it's results.

Ummmm. No. Thats factual. He HAS only overseen two drafts. Literally. His third draft is over two weeks away. You are contradicting yourself. You want to deal in facts? The FACT is that he has only overseen 2 drafts. Even on draft day you can't say he has overseen 3 drafts- for all we know he drops dead from a heart attack before we hit pick 4. 

And a big part of this is that his first draft, which was not good, but which everyone is saying is absolutely horrific,, could end up being ok if Becton comes back and Mims makes the team and contributes. And because these guys are only going into their 3rd years as pros, this could very well still happen. Because then you have Becton, Mims, Davis, Hall, Mann coming out as starters/contributors from that draft. 5 out of 9 ain't great but its certainly not the horror show people present it to be. Especially when JD seems to have pretty much nailed the 2021 draft adding AVT, Moore, Carter, Carter II and Echols- potentially Zach if he pans out.   

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4 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Okay, so we do not blame Douglas for year one.

So we give all the credit to Saleh for the 2021 draft.  Good to know.

Poor Idzik, rex took him down with the idzik 12 draft.

'Scheme' does not make you make stupid picks.  2020 was not bad due to scheme, 2020 was bad because bad players were taken at bad times of the draft.

Aligning success of a gms drafting with his coach is a total excuse, and a poor one that that.

you sound like a 5 year old throwing a tantrum

screaming the help GIF

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I keep hearing that the 2021 draft class was great.

Was it tho?

1. Zach was the lowest rated starting QB in the NFL as a rookie.  His future is 100% TBD at this point.

2. AVT looks like a stud.  So did Becton after his first year, as a reminder.

3. Moore looked very good once Zach went down and later, but he missed alot of time too.  High hopes for him in 2022.

4. Carter the RB was pretty good.  A Platoon-type RB, but also missed time.

5. Sherwood, Carter the DB, Pinnock, Nasi, Echols and Marshall?  Sure, some of them played because we didn't sign anyone better, but none of them look like long-term starters or difference makers so far.  All of them have a ton to prove as yet.  And them playing on the worst defense in franchise history isn't exactly a badge of honor.

Those top guys all have a chance to be good, but only one (AVT) is ALREADY good.  Zach isn't (yet).  Moore may be close, if he plays all of 2022.  Carter is a good piece of a committee backfield, so glad to have him, but he'll never be a difference maker himself.

Sorry, at least right now, this draft class looks ok, not great, and not a sure thing to BE great going forward.

2022 (as I keep saying) will tell alot of tales:

If Becton rebounds (as I hope he does), AVT maintains, Zach rises to average (at least) quality, Moore blows up as we all hope he will, and the Defense ISN'T the worst in Franchise history, yeah, we might be ok after all.  Hell, I'm still hoping Mims can hang on and finally prove something.  He has the skill, he just needs to do what he needs to do.

    

 

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18 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

In that case Joe Douglas should be fired for letting adam gase influence him so much.

There is no getting away from basic stupid dumb draft picks like he had in 2020.

What does that mean? What if we have another really good draft, like last year and this team becomes a perennial playoff contender, it won't matter to you because JD's first draft class was bad? 

What if Becton stays healthy and Hall continues to emerge as a really good CB? That still won't matter because "OMG Mims sucks".  

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1 minute ago, peekskill68 said:

Do you believe Saleh and Lafleur were instrumental in influencing the 2021 draft?

ALL coaches influence the draft.  ALL

Do I think they should get credit or blame for the actual picks?  No

The coach says we are running this system, we kinda would like this type of player, then it is up to the gm and his staff who actually scout and watch a billion hours of film to make good picks.

This premise of heaping praise or blame on coaches for the picks gms make is so massively overrated it is funny.  And if you do have a gm that lets coaches dictate a draft you are a fool  (See Tanny letting rex essential make picks)

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10 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Okay, so we do not blame Douglas for year one.

So we give all the credit to Saleh for the 2021 draft.  Good to know.

Poor Idzik, rex took him down with the idzik 12 draft.

'Scheme' does not make you make stupid picks.  2020 was not bad due to scheme, 2020 was bad because bad players were taken at bad times of the draft.

Aligning success of a gms drafting with his coach is a total excuse, and a poor one that that.

Douglas doesn't get all the blame or all the credit. It's always a combined effort tailored to the needs of the coaching staff.  It's not an excuse it's reality whether you choose to accept it or not.

A good example of scheme change having a negative impact on a draft pick is Mims who isn't a great route runner but is a burner. The LaFluer system puts more of a premium on precise route running. Mims isn't a good fit and probably won't be on the opening day roster.

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2 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

What does that mean? What if we have another really good draft, like last year and this team becomes a perennial playoff contender, it won't matter to you because JD's first draft class was bad? 

What if Becton stays healthy and Hall continues to emerge as a really good CB? That still won't matter because "OMG Mims sucks".  

You are what your drafting record says you are.

Douglas had a good 2021 draft, I am very hopeful he will have an excellent 2022 draft.

His 2020 draft sucked.

To build a good team you have to string good drafts together. 

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10 minutes ago, PepPep said:

Ummmm. No. Thats factual. He HAS only overseen two drafts. Literally. His third draft is over two weeks away. You are contradicting yourself. You want to deal in facts? The FACT is that he has only overseen 2 drafts. Even on draft day you can't say he has overseen 3 drafts- for all we know he drops dead from a heart attack before we hit pick 4. 

You might want to re-read the posts.  I don't think you understand them, given this pedantic reply.

All along I've been talking about the 2022 season and evaluating JD's future after we get those results.

Clearly, by that point, he will have completed his third draft and offseason.

I'll repeat myself, no one is talking about firing JD today.

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27 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

In that case Joe Douglas should be fired for letting adam gase influence him so much.

There is no getting away from basic stupid dumb draft picks like he had in 2020.

 Why were they all basic stupid dumb draft picks?  Becton, Mims and Perine were all contributors trending upward after the 2020 season.  The new staff came in and suddenly they are all basic stupid dumb draft picks.  Maybe if Gase were coaching in the NFL instead of HS he would find use for them.  Saleh seems like a bit of a rah rah run through the wall for me coach.  Becton and Mims don't seem to be buying in.  Maybe they never will, but plenty of guys like that succeed in the NFL.

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2 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Douglas doesn't get all the blame or all the credit. It's always a combined effort tailored to the needs of the coaching staff.  It's not an excuse it's reality whether you choose to accept it or not.

A good example of scheme change having a negative impact on a draft pick is Mims who isn't a great route runner but is a burner. The LaFluer system puts more of a premium on precise route running. Mims isn't a good fit and probably won't be on the opening day roster.

Mims sucks.  It was a bad pick.  To say Mims was a bad pick because of coaching style change is laughable.

There is a misconception here that I do not like Douglas, not true.  I like just about every thing about the way he is working on this team and building it.  That does not mean I am going to ignore a bad 2020 draft.  It was a bad draft  If Becton actually gets his act together it might end up being so so, if not then it is a horrendous draft.

When people do well you give them credit, when they don't you take them to task.

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26 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I prefer to just state facts.  No need to "frame" anything.  

The upcoming 2022 season simply IS JD's fourth season as the Jets GM.  He'll have been on the job for 36 months this June.

He's about to oversee his third draft.  I made it clear that he was hired late in advance of his first season as GM.  

Disingenuous is saying he's "only overseen two drafts" when his third is a few days away, and we're talking about the 2022 season and it's results.

No one is talking about firing JD today.

Makes little difference really, rebuild is just PR talk for "we're gonna suck because we've managed the organization poorly for years now".

Certainly, those old year's aren't on JD, but he took on their burden when he took on the Job.  

Ultimately, it's up to Ownership.  So far, JD is a loser, his teams have done nothing but lose, and lose badly, throughout his entire tenure.

My biggest point here is that that has to change, and change soon. 

Or he won't get too many more seasons to have his fanbois claim he just got here or just started the rebuild, lol.

Winning cures all. 

Hell, at this point just being mostly competitive week to week would be a massive upswing for this franchise.

Like I said, you can frame it however you like. The man has essentially had three free agency periods and two drafts so far, in under 36 months on the job. When the team takes the field in 2022, three drafts will have been completed, too. You wanna call that Year Four, have at it. I suspect it’s viewed a little differently internally. 

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So aside from Covid shutting down the world, cancelling the combine and all workouts and interviews in 2020 causing the Draft to be more of a crapshoot than any previous, what GM is the one who had all the Hits that JD ****ed up? Dallas and Tampa?  Looking at that draft, other than a few random hits that anyone could have gotten, no one had a "great" draft.  I mean everyone bitching about Becton instead of Wirfs- should we have jumped for Wills or Thomas if they had been available?  They got picked earlier.  Coulda grabbed Ruggs but that seems to have ended badly.  NOBODY DRAFTS WELL AND PEOPLE HAVE A STRANGE ASSUMPTION THAT WE ARE WORSE THAN OTHERS.  WE AREN'T.  IT'S A CRAPSHOOT EVERY YEAR.  It's all about getting lucky and picking a guy who becomes a star.  Full stop.

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Imo Douglas has been very good.  I like everything he's done so far, other than drafting Zac Wilson.  His first draft gets a lot of flak, but he was put in an impossible situation by an incompetent front office.

Before that draft, it was clear he was dealing with a doomed coach and staff, that he had almost no talent and of course he had no system with which to build up a team.  Worse he had enormous salary cap overhang from the previous GM (who might go down as the worst GM in NFL history), tons of atrocious contracts and very little to show for it.

Its very difficult drafting players when you don't know if you are running a 3-4 or a 4-3 the next year.  Instead, he picked the most athletic/project/reach players available in the hopes that they might survive the coming purges.  Mims and Becton are examples, and it made perfect sense for him to do that.  Of course, Becton is now playing in the wrong zone scheme, but well he is athletic enough to be able to transition if he puts his mind to it.

From that point on, he's been fantastic, once he had Saleh and LaFleur in place.  He doesn't overspend (a mainstay of previous GMs), he mantains draft capital value, he builds patiently and methodically, and we see steady improvement from the roster disaster that were the previous years teams.

I don't think people quite realize just how bad it was.  Our best player from that era (Adams) has basically created a mini revolt with his new team's fanbase and is single handedly tanking a storied franchise.

This is a big draft for our GM, but I have no doubt that this team is slowly but surely creeping its way out of an absolute dumpster fire.

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29 minutes ago, Warfish said:

You might want to re-read the posts.  I don't think you understand them, given this pedantic reply.

All along I've been talking about the 2022 season and evaluating JD's future after we get those results.

Clearly, by that point, he will have completed his third draft and offseason.

I'll repeat myself, no one is talking about firing JD today.

Right, I completely agree. However, if you want to talk about facts and stick to facts, but then say its disingenuous that JD has only overseen 2 drafts because he is going into his third draft...well, doesn't matter if you are talking about 2022 and he will have completed his 3rd draft by then- HE HASN'T YET. So lets deal in facts and stick with the fact that JD has overseen 2 drafts- NOT 3. I read your posts lmfao.  

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52 minutes ago, slats said:

Like I said, you can frame it however you like.

Repetition won't make this phrase any more accurate.  There is no framing here.

52 minutes ago, slats said:

The man has essentially had three free agency periods and two drafts so far, in under 36 months on the job.

Correct, as of today.  

52 minutes ago, slats said:

When the team takes the field in 2022, three drafts will have been completed, too.

Correct.

52 minutes ago, slats said:

You wanna call that Year Four, have at it.

I call the end of the 2022 the end of his fourth season as GM.

Because it is. 

The fact that he didn't get all of the offseason prior to his first season does not mean he wasn't GM during his first season.  He had all of the camp period and the season itself where he could and did make changes/moves.

And again, to repeat, any judgement of JD will be after the end of the 2022 season.  Not today.

52 minutes ago, slats said:

I suspect it’s viewed a little differently internally. 

You might well be correct.

We'll only know their view, perhaps, if 2022 is poor in terms of results again.

If he wins, we'll never know how Ownership felt now, today.  

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"The Jaguars made an early impact in the NFL by qualifying for the playoffs during four of their first five seasons. Between their second and fifth seasons, they made four consecutive playoff runs, two division titles, and two AFC Championship Game appearances.."

 

 

"The Panthers played well in their first two years, finishing 7–9 in 1995 (an all-time best for an NFL expansion team's first season) and 12–4 the following year, winning the NFC West before ultimately losing to the eventual Super Bowl champion Green Bay Packers in the NFC Championship Game."

 

Time isn't our problem. Its competence. 

 

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25 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Repetition won't make this phrase any more accurate.  There is no framing here.

Correct, as of today.  

Correct.

I call the end of the 2022 the end of his fourth season as GM.

Because it is. 

The fact that he didn't get all of the offseason prior to his first season does not mean he wasn't GM during his first season.  He had all of the camp period and the season itself where he could and did make changes/moves.

And again, to repeat, any judgement of JD will be after the end of the 2022 season.  Not today.

You might well be correct.

We'll only know their view, perhaps, if 2022 is poor in terms of results again.

If he wins, we'll never know how Ownership felt now, today.  

I agree that they need to start showing results this season, but acting like what he had in 2019 equates to a full season is a ******* joke.  Are even 1/4 of players of consequence available after June 1?  It;s not even like the old days when there were at least June 1 cuts.  Now they cut them early and just designate them post-June 1.  You are giving the guy the mini-draft and acting like he could build a team.  Bringind in JFM. Berrios and Mike White at that point was a huge coup.   

The only real opportunities you have to build a team are the draft and free agency.  He has had 3 free agency periods and 2 drafts.  By the end of the season he will have had 3 of each.  You can judge him on that, but acting like he had an extra year seems silly.

FWIW, I have akways said it does not take long to overhaul a team.  IMO 3 years is enough to completely overhaul a roster - so 2022 should be 100% on Joe Douglas.  

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joe became the gm the day he signed his contract and got his first check-from that day on he was in charge any move that was made or was not made was on Joe's watch

If the jets do not nail the draft and become competitive especially in the division Joe is not the guy to right the ship  but just like mac and izadick

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59 minutes ago, Jet_Engine1 said:

"The Jaguars made an early impact in the NFL by qualifying for the playoffs during four of their first five seasons. Between their second and fifth seasons, they made four consecutive playoff runs, two division titles, and two AFC Championship Game appearances.."

 

 

"The Panthers played well in their first two years, finishing 7–9 in 1995 (an all-time best for an NFL expansion team's first season) and 12–4 the following year, winning the NFC West before ultimately losing to the eventual Super Bowl champion Green Bay Packers in the NFC Championship Game."

 

Time isn't our problem. Its competence. 

 

They changed the rules after they entered the league. They were given a ridiculous head start with the expansion draft that year. It was pretty absurd. JD took over an expansion level roster with a terrible coach in place and no expansion draft at all. 

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