If the Jets sign UFA WR John Ross...

[Jetsfan80]

As discussed in another thread with @JiFapono, the Jets will have, at one time or another, owned 4 of the top 9 picks in the 2017 draft class.  Make it happen, JD! 

 

2017 Draft

1. DE Myles Garrett
2. QB Mitchell Trubisky
3. DE Solomon Thomas
4. RB Leonard Fournette
5. WR Corey Davis
6. SS Jamal Adams
7. WR Mike Williams
8. RB Christian McCaffrey
9. WR John Ross

[Bronx]

2017 Macggg's garbage > 2020 JDs garbage 

MacCoffee 's 2017 garbage draft has a slight edge over Fathead Joe's 2020 garbage draft.

 

[Jetsfan80]

44 minutes ago, Bronx said:

2017 Macggg's garbage > 2020 JDs garbage 

MacCoffee 's 2017 garbage draft has a slight edge over Fathead Joe's 2020 garbage draft.

It takes zero balls to take back to back Safeties to start a draft.  Of course those 2 are going to end up good players.  They're Box Safeties.  At least Douglas had the stones to try to take a LT, WR, FS and EDGE with some athleticism.  And Bryce Hall will go down as a better player than anyone in that 2017 class, Adams included.  Adams has been a f**king embarrassment in Seattle.

Mike Maccagnan was the worst GM in NFL history, and its indisputable.

[Dwight Englewood]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It takes zero balls to take back to back Safeties to start a draft.  Of course those 2 are going to end up good players.  They're Box Safeties.  At least Douglas had the stones to try to take a LT, WR, FS and EDGE with some athleticism.  And Bryce Hall will go down as a better player than anyone in that 2017 class, Adams included.  Adams has been a f**king embarrassment in Seattle.

Mike Maccagnan was the worst GM in NFL history, and its indisputable.

The current GM is 6-27 the past 2 years.  

 

 

Mic Drop

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, Dwight Englewood said:

The current GM is 6-27 the past 2 years.  

 

 

Mic Drop

 

Largely because he had to completely tear down the mess the worst GM in NFL history made over the prior 5 years.

I fully agree we need to see wins this year.  But taking Joe Douglas' W-L record in a vacuum like it means something makes little sense.  

[Dwight Englewood]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Largely because he had to completely tear down the mess the worst GM in NFL history made over the prior 5 years.

 

Same nonsense excuse Macagnan apologists made for him the first 2 years he was here.  "You can't expect him to win he has to rebuild from Idzik's 2013 draft."  

 

At some point Bill Parcells' old saying has to apply "you are what your record says you are"

 

Douglas has done nothing so far to indicate he's even an average evaluator of talent.  In fact, he might be worse than the previous 2 GM's the Jets had which is incredible.

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, Dwight Englewood said:

Same nonsense excuse Macagnan apologists made for him the first 2 years he was here.  "You can't expect him to win he has to rebuild from Idzik's 2013 draft."  

 

At some point Bill Parcells' old saying has to apply "you are what your record says you are"

 

Douglas has done nothing so far to indicate he's even an average evaluator of talent.  In fact, he might be worse than the previous 2 GM's the Jets had which is incredible.

 

Bryce Hall, Elijah Moore, Vera-Tucker and Michael Carter are better than anything the prior 2 regimes brought in.  You're out of your mind.  

[Dwight Englewood]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Bryce Hall, Elijah Moore, Vera-Tucker and Michael Carter are better than anything the prior 2 regimes brought in.  You're out of your mind.  

A mediocre corner, an ok slot receiver and an ok scat back after 2.5 offseasons -- that's your big list of accomplishments?

[varjet]

17 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It takes zero balls to take back to back Safeties to start a draft.  Of course those 2 are going to end up good players.  They're Box Safeties.  At least Douglas had the stones to try to take a LT, WR, FS and EDGE with some athleticism.  And Bryce Hall will go down as a better player than anyone in that 2017 class, Adams included.  Adams has been a f**king embarrassment in Seattle.

Mike Maccagnan was the worst GM in NFL history, and its indisputable.

The issue with Mac's draft was not so much that Adams and Maye picks were not good picks, because they were actually good picks (based on what each of them are being  paid now), it is that for this Jets team there were many higher valued players that should have been picked instead.  But if you were not picking Mahomes, Watson, Dalvin Cook or Joe Mixon, among others, there were plenty of picks other than Adams and Maye that were much worse picks in that draft.  But after picking Adams and Maye, Mac completely bombed that draft.   ArDarius Steward, Chad Hansen, etc. (no George Kittle, etc.).  Just a disaster.  

There are no excuses for JD's 2020 Draft Picks.  They were terrible.  At least we know part of the explanation-JD is using Mac's old scouts still.   I don't guy the no guts no glory excuse.    That is not to say that JD should not take chances-he just can't take 8 of them.  So in this draft I can see him maybe mixing up 4 and 10-maybe he takes Thib at 4, but a safer pick at 10, like Garrett Wilson.  He can't take two chances in the 1st round.  He needs at least one day 1 solid contributor.  

[Barry McCockinner]

31 minutes ago, Dwight Englewood said:

The current GM is 6-27 the past 2 years.  

 

 

Mic Drop

Yea but undefeated in the playoffs.

[65 Toss Power Trap]

15 minutes ago, Dwight Englewood said:

A mediocre corner, an ok slot receiver and an ok scat back after 2.5 offseasons -- that's your big list of accomplishments?

JetsFan can answer for himself, but re-read his post. He did not list any accomplishments. He simply pointed out the players brought in recently are better NFL players than others in recent years. And he's right.

Additionally, you're only talking about drafted players, not the other things JD has done after 2.5 years.  

Douglas's 2021 draft actually shows he's (meaning him and his team) a good evaluator. No doubt he needs to get some good talent in 6 days, but he's probably not going to fall flat on his face. If he does, I'll be the first to want him gone. This team and organization are trending up, not down. They are starting to appear very competent, not incompetent. 

[rangerous]

12 minutes ago, varjet said:

The issue with Mac's draft was not so much that Adams and Maye picks were not good picks, because they were actually good picks (based on what each of them are being  paid now), it is that for this Jets team there were many higher valued players that should have been picked instead.  But if you were not picking Mahomes, Watson, Dalvin Cook or Joe Mixon, among others, there were plenty of picks other than Adams and Maye that were much worse picks in that draft.  But after picking Adams and Maye, Mac completely bombed that draft.   ArDarius Steward, Chad Hansen, etc. (no George Kittle, etc.).  Just a disaster.  

There are no excuses for JD's 2020 Draft Picks.  They were terrible.  At least we know part of the explanation-JD is using Mac's old scouts still.   I don't guy the no guts no glory excuse.    That is not to say that JD should not take chances-he just can't take 8 of them.  So in this draft I can see him maybe mixing up 4 and 10-maybe he takes Thib at 4, but a safer pick at 10, like Garrett Wilson.  He can't take two chances in the 1st round.  He needs at least one day 1 solid contributor.  

i agree that douglas' 2020 picks haven't shown as much as they should have but at the same time 2020 was a completely weird year and there is every reason to believe that players like mims, zuniga, davis, perine can turn it around.  and, of course only becton can stop the rumor mill about his seemingly lack of effort.  i'd like to know just what the average hit rate there is in the nfl draft.

as for john ross, the guy is fast but can he catch the ball?

[Dwight Englewood]

2 minutes ago, 65 Toss Power Trap said:

JetsFan can answer for himself, but re-read his post. He did not list any accomplishments. He simply pointed out the players brought in recently are better NFL players than others in recent years. And he's right.

Additionally, you're only talking about drafted players, not the other things JD has done after 2.5 years.  

Douglas's 2021 draft actually shows he's (meaning him and his team) a good evaluator. No doubt he needs to get some good talent in 6 days, but he's probably not going to fall flat on his face. If he does, I'll be the first to want him gone. This team and organization are trending up, not down. They are starting to appear very competent, not incompetent. 

Douglas has been nothing short of horrible.  The defense last season was the softest Jets defense I have ever seen ever.  Drafted Zach Wilson over Mac Jones.  Becton and Mims - I don't know if the coaching staff is botching these guys because if they are not then I'm probably understating how bad Joe Douglas really is

[65 Toss Power Trap]

5 hours ago, varjet said:

There are no excuses for JD's 2020 Draft Picks.  They were terrible.  At least we know part of the explanation-JD is using Mac's old scouts still.   I don't guy the no guts no glory excuse.    That is not to say that JD should not take chances-he just can't take 8 of them.  So in this draft I can see him maybe mixing up 4 and 10-maybe he takes Thib at 4, but a safer pick at 10, like Garrett Wilson.  He can't take two chances in the 1st round.  He needs at least one day 1 solid contributor.  

If JD gets a few good starters this years, which is easily possible, 2020 won't matter as much (although there are still some lingering, and frustrating, issues from the draft). Jets will be on the  way to putting something decent on the field.

If he goes 2 for 3 on his drafts, we'll live with it, and the team will be on the way. He can't screw this draft up, take advantage now (whether that is picking good players, using picks to trade for players now, trading for picks in the future, etc.). Have to come out of this one with really competent decisions being made.

[Jimmy 2 Times]

I love Joe Douglas.  
He takes a lot of flack, but I think it’s 90% because Jet fans have lost patience with the 15 year rebuild.

 

If he was hired instead of Idzik and maybe Mac, we be talking about building a statue. 
 

If you look close, you can see how he’s stacking the roster in layers and lining up replacements before guys are even off the team.  
He really is next level and the winning will come in waves….. in tidal waves if Zach works out. 

[nycdan]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

As discussed in another thread with @JiFapono, the Jets will have, at one time or another, owned 4 of the top 9 picks in the 2017 draft class.  Make it happen, JD! 

 

2017 Draft

1. DE Myles Garrett
2. QB Mitchell Trubisky
3. DE Solomon Thomas
4. RB Leonard Fournette
5. WR Corey Davis
6. SS Jamal Adams
7. WR Mike Williams
8. RB Christian McCaffrey
9. WR John Ross

Great.  If I ranked this list based on who I would want, those are the 5th through 8th best players.  You could argue swapping 5th (Adams) with 4th (Fournette) but that's splitting hairs.

[varjet]

12 minutes ago, rangerous said:

i agree that douglas' 2020 picks haven't shown as much as they should have but at the same time 2020 was a completely weird year and there is every reason to believe that players like mims, zuniga, davis, perine can turn it around.  and, of course only becton can stop the rumor mill about his seemingly lack of effort.  i'd like to know just what the average hit rate there is in the nfl draft.

as for john ross, the guy is fast but can he catch the ball?

To me, one way of evaluating a draft is to look at the players picked after the players we did, and look at what the result of trades were.

You can always argue fit, etc., but passing on a player like Wirfs for an oversized, overweight guy like Becton who is going to end up at RT anyway is just inexcusable.  And since when do you draft safeties based on athleticism when they need to track the ball and tackle people.  In this 2022 draft, I don't see anyone talking about safeties like Ashtyn Davis-there are alot of great players who actually know how to play safety.  Davis is maybe a 7th round pick in the 2022 draft.  

If you look at the Darron Lee draft, the 10-15 players picked after him were not great.  The whole league blew that draft-players picked on metrics ended up bad players.  When teams looked at the tape more for players in the second round, they got better players (Deion Jones, Cody Whitehair, but not Hackenburg (whoops)).

But in 2020 JD relied on the old Jets scouts without much input for the Gase CS (and when they did, it was bad (Perine, Morgan).  Mims was a Mac/Idzik/Tannenbaum pick, like Stephen Hill and Devin Smith.  In 2021, it would appear that Saleh and LaFleur were the dominant factors in the drafting.  That is what Tony P implied.  What are the scouts actually doing?

[HighPitch]

Saleh and joe have never lost a single playoff game. So there!

[MykePM]

46 minutes ago, Dwight Englewood said:

Same nonsense excuse Macagnan apologists made for him the first 2 years he was here.  "You can't expect him to win he has to rebuild from Idzik's 2013 draft."  

It's like you weren't even here in 2015.  Nobody was making excuses for Maccagnan the first couple of years he was here.  Because his quick-fix solution was to spend like a drunken sailor on old free agents and trade targets who made the win-loss record look good for one year (although still missing the playoffs) before collectively crapping the bed and putting us in a position of paying a lot of money to players who weren't able to get it done anymore.  I don't want to sound too high and mighty about it, because I was taken in by the immediate results of that approach, but the mess that followed taught a lesson that some people haven't taken to heart.

Many people around here don't like it, but JD's strategy is to slowly build a sustainable winner.  It's an approach that really hasn't been tried before here, and one that I was on board with because, hey, the usual strategies aimed at more immediate success haven't been working out too well.   It was never intended to have immediate results, and it hasn't.  That bought him a few years of good faith that are ending right around now.  We're now going to start seeing if his plan is working. 

[FidelioJet]

27 minutes ago, rangerous said:

i agree that douglas' 2020 picks haven't shown as much as they should have but at the same time 2020 was a completely weird year and there is every reason to believe that players like mims, zuniga, davis, perine can turn it around.  and, of course only becton can stop the rumor mill about his seemingly lack of effort.  i'd like to know just what the average hit rate there is in the nfl draft.

as for john ross, the guy is fast but can he catch the ball?

You are wrong and you are right....

Yes, Joe Douglas has not proven at all that he's a quality talent evaluator.  He had some hits in FA and he had some misses in FA.  He had a terrible draft in his first year - with bad and often illogical choices and some hits in his second draft - with a smart focused approach.

But, the reality is his first two years were absolutely the plan to tear down the entire team and rebuild from the ground up.  That tear down required 2 years to do properly. The win loss record is far more a function of the full on tear down than it was his year one draft picks.  You can absolutely not like the "plan" - it's your right to say it was a bad way to go - but it was, in fact, the way he went.  By not acknowledging that reality you're simply not being fair to the situation.

So, bottom line....He has done a very nice job in staying focused, following through on the tear down - clearing cap space and hoarding draft picks....In that regard he's been very successful.  But that was, by far, the easy part.  The hard part started last year - and will continue into this one.

Can he build a team?  That we don't know.

 

[Origen]

What's Ross' story?  He's bounced around a lot?  I remember him coming out of U. of Washington and he was a speedy guy but other than changing teams and being hurt I don't know what he's done.  PLUS, I could have some other guys in mind other than him anyway.

[slats]

Why would he sign John Ross? 

[65 Toss Power Trap]

34 minutes ago, Dwight Englewood said:

Douglas has been nothing short of horrible. . . . Drafted Zach Wilson over Mac Jones. 

I don't think your statement is going to age well. I could be wrong.

Analysts, who know football, said that ZW was the best rookie QB the last third of the season. I don't think Zach is heading backwards. I don't think his pass protection is going to be worse. I don't think his TE group is going to be worse. I don't think the running game is going to be worse, etc. Meaning, Zach might be an unknown right now, but he's most likely going to be better than he was at the end of the season.

[Origen]

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

You are wrong and you are right....

Yes, Joe Douglas has not proven at all that he's a quality talent evaluator.  He had some hits in FA and he had some misses in FA.  He had a terrible draft in his first year - with bad and often illogical choices and some hits in his second draft - with a smart focused approach.

But, the reality is his first two years were absolutely the plan to tear down the entire team and rebuild from the ground up.  That tear down required 2 years to do properly. The win loss record is far more a function of the full on tear down than it was his year one draft picks.  You can absolutely not like the "plan" - it's your right to say it was a bad way to go - but it was, in fact, the way he went.  By not acknowledging that reality you're simply not being fair to the situation.

So, bottom line....He has done a very nice job in staying focused, following through on the tear down - clearing cap space and hoarding draft picks....In that regard he's been very successful.  But that was, by far, the easy part.  The hard part started last year - and will continue into this one.

Can he build a team?  That we don't know.

 

The thing about his first draft that I will always give him the benefit on is that was when Covid first hit and the world fell apart. Plus, for every 'miss' in the early rounds you can count a 'hit' in later rounds or UDFA who HAS produced on the field and enough to make the draft a wash at worst.

[Origen]

31 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

Saleh and joe have never lost a single playoff game. So there!

Better than Kotite!

[peekskill68]

40 minutes ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

I love Joe Douglas.  
He takes a lot of flack, but I think it’s 90% because Jet fans have lost patience with the 15 year rebuild.

 

If he was hired instead of Idzik and maybe Mac, we be talking about building a statue. 
 

If you look close, you can see how he’s stacking the roster in layers and lining up replacements before guys are even off the team.  
He really is next level and the winning will come in waves….. in tidal waves if Zach works out. 

NY Jets 1st Round Draft Picks

2008 - Vernon Gholston

2009 - Mark Sanchez

2010 - Kyle Wilson

2011 - Muhammad Wilkerson

2012 - Quinton Coples

2013 - Dee Milliner

2014 - Calvin Pryor

2015 - Leonard Williams

2016 - Darron Lee

2017 - Jamal Adams

2018 - Sam Darnold

Does anyone comprehend how bad this team has been?  Dunking on JD's 6-27 record?  Puhleeze...

[FidelioJet]

28 minutes ago, Origen said:

The thing about his first draft that I will always give him the benefit on is that was when Covid first hit and the world fell apart. Plus, for every 'miss' in the early rounds you can count a 'hit' in later rounds or UDFA who HAS produced on the field and enough to make the draft a wash at worst.

I think that is a more fair argument than the Gase one.  I just don't buy the Gase excuse - as it's his final decision...

but to your point, really not being able to spend time with these guys.  In both Becton and Mims - it seems to be more about effort than it does talent.  Could it be that he was able to recognize the talent via film, but really couldn't get to know the kid?  I don't know, but maybe there's something to it,

It's behind us know anyway - I surely hope that was the issue - because if he nails this draft and Zach grows up - this will be a legit NFL contender for the foreseeable future. 

[Warfish]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Largely because he had to completely tear down the mess the worst GM in NFL history made over the prior 5 years.

The song sung by every hopeful fan who hopes this time it'll be different.....

Also, interestingly, the song sung by every political partisan when we have a regime change.

It's always the last guys fault, right up till the current guy becomes the new last guy, and the cycle begins again.

[Spoot-Face]

Damnit, I misread the thread title and thought it actually happened. Don't you play with my heart @Jetsfan80!

[FidelioJet]

3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

The song sung by every hopeful fan who hopes this time it'll be different.....

Also, interestingly, the song sung by every political partisan when we have a regime change.

It's always the last guys fault, right up till the current guy becomes the new last guy, and the cycle begins again.

This is true - but, in both cases, sometimes it's also accurate.

[Spoot-Face]

3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

The song sung by every hopeful fan who hopes this time it'll be different.....

Also, interestingly, the song sung by every political partisan when we have a regime change.

It's always the last guys fault, right up till the current guy becomes the new last guy, and the cycle begins again.

[Jimmy 2 Times]

7 minutes ago, Warfish said:

The song sung by every hopeful fan who hopes this time it'll be different.....

Also, interestingly, the song sung by every political partisan when we have a regime change.

It's always the last guys fault, right up till the current guy becomes the new last guy, and the cycle begins again.

 

You're absolutely right, but we've never had this kind of a rebuild before.  It's gone into deeper depths than the Jets have ever attempted.  It's more similar to a baseball rebuild (think Cubs, Astros, and White Sox the last decade). 

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, slats said:

Why would he sign John Ross? 

He likely wouldn't except in a kick-the-tires situation. 

I intended this thread as a joke but then it became super serious super fast.  

[Jetsfan80]

22 minutes ago, Warfish said:

The song sung by every hopeful fan who hopes this time it'll be different.....

Also, interestingly, the song sung by every political partisan when we have a regime change.

It's always the last guys fault, right up till the current guy becomes the new last guy, and the cycle begins again.

This would be true except there are things that Douglas has done so far here that have, objectively, been some pretty good calls.  Most importantly:  The offensive line.  We've been complaining about that unit since 2012 and all of a sudden its looking like at least an average unit, even with the Becton pick being at least, say, a 40 % chance of being a bust.

The process has made some sense, unlike prior regimes.  So I think that's worth something.

It all falls apart though if he doesn't nail this draft and the team doesn't start winning this year.

[Jetsfan80]

14 minutes ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

 

You're absolutely right, but we've never had this kind of a rebuild before.  It's gone into deeper depths than the Jets have ever attempted.  It's more similar to a baseball rebuild (think Cubs, Astros, and White Sox the last decade). 

Yep.  The slow burn that makes us a perennial contender.  I think this team is just one solid draft this year and a QB away, which is not something you could have said about the squad for about a decade prior.